CAP bus

[Ned]

Before the rule changes, I belonged to several units that had buses.

(One had been screened from a certain Federal agency and had "Atomic Energy Commission" in big letters on the side for over two years before it was finally painted in CAP colors.)

And without exception, the busses were huge maintains problems.

There are few things that can go wrong on a 44 pax bus that are not very expensive to fix.  Especially for a squadron with 30-40 dues-paying members.

And in all honesty, the buses were not used more that once a month in a busy year.

So mostly, they just sat around and degraded.

And old poorly maintained, seldom-used buses are just a tragedy waiting to happen.

Enjoy the vans.  They're better and far safer for the troops and for CAP, Inc.

Ned Lee
DCP, PCR

[fyrfitrmedic]

I distinctly remember a 2.5 ton truck with CAP decals on the sides being in a photo of Hawk Mountain. Anyone care to share how that happened if regs state specifically that deuce and halfs aren't authorized?

How old was the picture?

WIWAC, a number of PAWG units had deuce and a half trucks and all manner of surplus vehicles. My home unit had two of 'em as well as a cargo trailer.

IIRC, the rule went into effect late 80s-early 90s or so re: such vehicles.

[NIN]

Thanks for setting me straight Phil,

Like I said, I wasn't sure if there were fatalities or not.  The result was the same, no more buses.

In my years in CAP, I've always heard these apocryphal stories as they relate to certain local or national rules or regs.

"Cadets can't drive themselves to CAP activities, 'cuz about 20 years ago, a car load of cadets on the way to a CAC meeting slammed in to a bridge abutment and all of 'em died..."

I always wonder where these old saws come from.

I imagined the bus thing was similar.  One of those "told from member to member" stories that has a grain of truth to start and gets much, much better in the telling.

(Mind you, I had a military bus license, both 24 & 44 pax, just so I could drive for CAP.  Thankfully, my guard unit somehow missed the bus endorsement on my license, otherwise I'd be the bus-driving victim every time we went to the range.  But for CAP,  I'd switch into my ARNG uniform when it was time to "make like a bus driver," just like the other guys we had who were either RAP NCOs or "two-hatters" like me.  Me thinks that your average LO/State Director today would have a serious cow over that.  And rightly so.)

 

[flyguy06]

Like Rudin said, if you really really want one, have it owned by a non-profit or sister organization.  A few squadrons around here do that.  Theres one in the area that has a hovercraft owned by a non profit org.  Even our squadron's hangar is under Youth and Aviation.

Just remembered our squadron is also a boy scout troop. Don't ask, I don't know, I stopped listening after 10 minutes when they tried to explain it.

If you look in CAPR 52-16 at the last chapter, it explains how CAP and the BSA can have joint charters. It happens a lot with Aviation Explorers. But to your original question. Major assets like buildings and vehicles can only be accepted by CAP Corporate officers. the Wing Commander is the Vorporate Officer repesenting the Wing so he is the lowesr echelon that can accept these things on behalf of CAP. But if he is a good guy, and he knows this was donated specifically to your unit, I doubt he wil move it someplace else. He will probably assign it to your unit.

[PHall]

So was the "qualified" CAP member also an Air Force guy?  For years, as far back as I can remember, AF buses were never allowed to be driven by anyone but AF personnel. 

I would imagine people lost their jobs over that.  I am glad to hear it was not a fatal accident.

I am just surprised to hear that is the reason CAP can't own buses.

The driver was not an Air Force guy. He had been checked out by the base motor pool folks to drive a bus.

Back when this accident happened, some Air Force, Air Force Reserve, Air National Guard units would allow CAP to use their vehicles if the drivers completed the required training.
This particular bus was assigned to an Air Force Reserve unit and usually was used on the flight line.

The practice of loaning vehicles to CAP was immediately halted as a result of this accident.

[Slim]

I distinctly remember a 2.5 ton truck with CAP decals on the sides being in a photo of Hawk Mountain. Anyone care to share how that happened if regs state specifically that deuce and halfs aren't authorized?

How old was the picture?

WIWAC, a number of PAWG units had deuce and a half trucks and all manner of surplus vehicles. My home unit had two of 'em as well as a cargo trailer.

IIRC, the rule went into effect late 80s-early 90s or so re: such vehicles.

I also remember a rolling junkyard of DRMO castoffs: Pickups, M-880s, deuce and a halfs, a sedan or two, and the rolling deathtraps buses.

Nin, do you remember if the old Gp XII vehicles were corporate or privately owned (I'm talking about the jeep and the weapons carrier)?  Those went away right before my time, and I don't remember the full story on them.

Had a squadron commander BITD who had been the wing transpo officer at one time.  He had acquired 3-4 disassembled, crated Willy's jeeps.  Went through the trouble of putting them together, then had to dispose of them.  He ended up with one that we used as a ground team vehicle at a practice SAR once.

[Eagle400]

It was an Air Force bus being driven by a licenced and "qualified" CAP member.

To be precise, it was a bus owned and operated by the 146th Airlift Wing of the California Air National Guard at Channel Islands Air National Guard Station in Port Hueneme, CA. 

And now you know why we can't have anything larger then a 15 pax van.

And wouldn't you know that years later, the same CAP squadron that was responsible for this particular incident got a hold of a deuce-and-a-half truck from a nearby Navy base courtesy of one of the CAP officers who also happened to be an officer in the Naval Reserve (and former Spaatz Cadet!)   . 

They used it for transporting cadets and even in recruiting activities such as airshows and parades.  They eventually lost the deuce-and-a-half about a year or so after they got it.   Not sure if anyone got punished, but the officer who got the deuce-and-a-half for them is still there.

I guess some folks never learn.         

[NIN]

A couple years back I remember reading a website about how some insurance company was underwriting a program to allow churches to purchase "mini-buses" (like the airport shuttle buses) versus the 12- and 15-passenger vans.

(Ah, took a bit to find.. I think this is the link: https://www.guideone.com/SafetyResources/Churches/collinsbus.htm)

and this : http://www.midwesttransit.com/Church/5Myths.asp

While I realize that a "14-25 pax church bus" style vehicle is not as "sexy" as a van or a *real bus*, it may at some point get down to insurance coverage. If our insurers decide that they can't cover us in a cost effective way, we may need to go this way for personnel transport.

Honestly? My unit could use a 25-pax bus in a heartbeat.  As it stands we wind up taking 2 vans to a lot of activities.  A 25-pax and a 12-pax van would be ideal for us.

Even a regular bus has issues: http://www.abc3340.com/news/stories/0308/502532.html

I'm leery every time I drive one of our 12-pax.  We conduct convoy briefings, actions on, have a comm plan, put co-drivers in every vehicle (not just "the highest ranking guy gets the front seat") and work on transportation plans that get us there and back with a minimum of risk.  So it takes us longer to get somplace. Big deal.  We all get there, and we all get back.

[PhoenixRisen]

The bus and other vehicles being prohibited is because CAP owned vehicles use CAP's vehicle insurance policy.  Vehicles like buses that can transport large numbers of passengers drive up the cost of insurance.

Why would Humvee's be under the no-go list for CAP vehicles?

[arajca]

The bus and other vehicles being prohibited is because CAP owned vehicles use CAP's vehicle insurance policy.  Vehicles like buses that can transport large numbers of passengers drive up the cost of insurance.

Why would Humvee's be under the no-go list for CAP vehicles?

They do not comply with federal motor vehicle safety standards.

[badger bob]

Remember
Maintainance of the CAP Vehicle fleet and Airplane fleet use USAF appropriated funds. Additions of airplanes or vehicles - even gifts or donations- require a recommendation by CAP-NHQ-Logistics and approval by CAP-USAF.

Even the wing king can not accept a donation of a vehicle without approval from NHQ and CAP-USAF

[PHall]

It was an Air Force bus being driven by a licenced and "qualified" CAP member.

To be precise, it was a bus owned and operated by the 146th Airlift Wing of the California Air National Guard at Channel Islands Air National Guard Station in Port Hueneme, CA. 

And now you know why we can't have anything larger then a 15 pax van.

And wouldn't you know that years later, the same CAP squadron that was responsible for this particular incident got a hold of a deuce-and-a-half truck from a nearby Navy base courtesy of one of the CAP officers who also happened to be an officer in the Naval Reserve (and former Spaatz Cadet!)   . 

They used it for transporting cadets and even in recruiting activities such as airshows and parades.  They eventually lost the deuce-and-a-half about a year or so after they got it.   Not sure if anyone got punished, but the officer who got the deuce-and-a-half for them is still there.

I guess some folks never learn.         

About the bus, you're not even close. Bus belonged to March ARB, CA.
They were enroute to Channel Islands ANGS for an orientation flight in one of their C-130E's.
The personnel involved were from Group 15.

[Eagle400]

About the bus, you're not even close. Bus belonged to 445th Airlift Wing (AFRC), March ARB, CA.
They were enroute to Channel Islands ANGS for an orientation flight in one of their C-130E's.
The personnel involved were from San Gabriel Valley Group 15.

Then the person who told me about the incident was incorrect.  Thank you for clarifying the facts, sir.

However, the story about the deuce-and-a-half is completely accurate.   

[DNall]

some of this is also about placing restrictions on what CAP can take from the DRMO system. We really don't want surplus HMMVWs, buses, or duces. They are all worn to the bone & about to fall apart. Most aren't worth parts & are are close to being dangerous. That's a logistical & financial nightmare.

[CadetProgramGuy]

The operators of the bus would probably need to hold a CDL (check w/ your state) if it can carry more then X amount of people. 

d. Types of vehicles not permitted to be owned by CAP will be determined by NHQ. Vehicles not permitted to be owned by CAP include, but are not limited to:
1) Buses
2) Water trailers
3) Humvees
4) Deuce and half (2 1/2 ton vehicles or larger)
5) Boats
6) ATVs

-- I cut a bunch----

To drive a bus, you would need a CDL-P w/ Air Brake endorsement.

On the other.....You have already figured it out.  Have Someone "own" the bus and let CAP use it.  Don't paint it CAP colors, just paint it.  There ya go.  CAP doesn't own it, and if you get asked on it where it came from, it is donated for travel only.

Hack, last encampment in Iowa, we used the Counterdrug's bus on base with their permission.  Only on base.