Poll
Question:
If Maj. Gen. Pineda steps down, is removed or is otherwise no longer National Commander, will the US be removed from USCAP?
Option 1: Yes, it will be removed.
Option 2: No, it'll stay
Option 3: Don't care.
Option 4: This is a stupid poll in the first place.
Assuming General Pineda was behind the movement to "re-brand" CAP to USCAP, do you think it will be dropped if he, for whatever reason, is no longer in office? Somewhere, I read that the USAF was not in favor of using it or otherwise didn't think it could be used without changes to legal documents, etc.
I have seen more and more people using it for signature lines and such both on this forum and in official correspondence. Do you think it is here to stay, or will it quietly go away? Should it?
Frack'n polls. >:(
How come you don't like polls?
Frack! :D
Lots of stuff that has been unpopular in CAP has been attributed to the Major General, but frankly I think that the linking of ALL such things to him has been the result more of anti-Pindea agendism than fact. Sort of a "let's focus all our agnst in one place."
The facts are that the position of National Commander is not one that allows edicts to carry the force of law, by virtue of that...anyone who is National Commander cannot simply effect CAP policy without the support of the governing bodies of CAP and its college of Cardinals...er...Region/Wing Commaders. (unless my understanding of the position is incorrect)
Thus, it is likely that many of these actions began as suggestions to him...turned into lip service by him...then backed by the Governing Bodies.
It is likely that "USCAP" is the brainchild of someone else "close to the top." I never heard or read the Major General take credit for anything but the "TPU" CAP Distinctive Service Coat and those statements were with my own ears at the 2007 Texas Wing Conference. When he introduced the "US Civil Air Patrol tapes" he attributed that to a recommendation from Vangaurd, placed it to a vote...then it passed with little commentary.
One curious question...if the the Major General is converted to Citizen Pineda, who will the "focus of angst" be then? If they reveal some unpopular uniform or a change to the basic seal of the Civil Air Patrol...and Citizen Pineda is gone...will the powers that rant turn against Brig General Courter?
That is a serious question I am asking here.
We now return you to your original program... ;D
Quote from: Major Carrales on August 24, 2007, 02:18:11 AM
...will the powers that rant turn against Brig General Courter?
I don't know if we will see anyone put forward the large amount of changes TP has brought. The old saying "learn from others mistakes" would surely apply here.
However if there needs to be a focus for everyones anger.......who should it be?? ???
Wasn't there already a poll on this exact issue a few months ago?
Quote from: RiverAux on August 24, 2007, 03:34:12 AM
Wasn't there already a poll on this exact issue a few months ago?
Use the search feature ;)
Quote from: Major Carrales on August 24, 2007, 02:18:11 AM
The facts are that the position of National Commander is not one that allows edicts to carry the force of law, by virtue of that...anyone who is National Commander cannot simply effect CAP policy without the support of the governing bodies of CAP and its college of Cardinals...er...Region/Wing Commaders. (unless my understanding of the position is incorrect)
Thus, it is likely that many of these actions began as suggestions to him...turned into lip service by him...then backed by the Governing Bodies.
To paraphrase George Orwell, "All National Commanders are influential....but some are more influential than others".
My understanding is that many of these changes either originated with General Pineda, or else he bought into them personally when he received the suggestion.
You are correct that the CAP CC can't rule by edict....however, the CAP CC does influence the NB members.....and Gen. Pineda has a very powerful, rather direct personality. I think he exerted a lot of influence on NB members to back his ideas.
Gen. Courter appears to be more of a consensus builder, and somewhat more patient with divergent opinions.
If she succeeds to command (now or in the future), undoubtedly there will be those who complain about what she does, or her successor, and so forth....someone always complains!
However, I don't think she will be the 'lightning rod' for controversy and dissent that Gen. Pineda has been....again, largely because of their differing personalities.
Please understand that this is simply my analysis of the situation, and not in anyway a judgement of either person or their actions.
Quote from: Major Carrales on August 24, 2007, 02:18:11 AM
...
When he introduced the "US Civil Air Patrol tapes" he attributed that to a recommendation from Vangaurd, placed it to a vote...then it passed with little commentary.
...
umm, what?
To be fair, I think that was uncalled for. But really? To take uniform suggestions from the near only supplier? ??? Taking suggestions from members, ok, depending on the idea. I'm beginning to wonder what is in the contract that NHQ signed with them. If a contract was signed that guaranteed VG so much profit, but then they weren't making as much as they planned, so a suggestion to raise revenue by a new item- and outrageous shipping charges--I would be very unhappy. The way I figure it, VG makes a pretty penny on shipping. I have heard that they occasionally lose money on the item- Member pays $7 shipping when would have cost $8 normally- VG lost $1, now I buy 1 ribbon. I pay $7 shipping, when would cost me $.39- VG makes $6.61. For the two orders, VG would've earned $5.61. I know that those are crude and extremes, but they would be making more money that way too. Now, if they would only use the money to better their website. . . . . .
Quote from: JC004 on August 24, 2007, 04:09:29 AM
Quote from: Major Carrales on August 24, 2007, 02:18:11 AM
...
When he introduced the "US Civil Air Patrol tapes" he attributed that to a recommendation from Vangaurd, placed it to a vote...then it passed with little commentary.
...
umm, what?
I was watching the live stream...they had numerous other unifrom issues. Then he, the Major General pulled the "US CIVIL AIR PATROL" nametape out and expressed that they were from Vanguard. When he called for discussion, only on Region/Wing Commander made a comment...it was more an issue about if it would fit over the the pocket.
The Major General then said that the one he was holding...uncut...would have to be cut to fit the pocket.
A vote was called for with no objectionable discussion and then the motion carried.
That is what I remember seeing and hearing.
QuoteYou are correct that the CAP CC can't rule by edict....however, the CAP CC does influence the NB members.....and Gen. Pineda has a very powerful, rather direct personality. I think he exerted a lot of influence on NB members to back his ideas.
Actually, by sad example, the paradigm has been that if you don't support Tony you rapidly find yourself a
former National Board Member. Didn't you guys read Rex Glasgow's letter where he said that Tony would eavesdrop on Region Commanders conference calls to determine who supported him? Why do you think his term was strewn with the bodies of his opponents?
Quote from: Skyray on August 24, 2007, 06:56:46 AM
Why do you think his term was strewn with the bodies of his opponents?
... and broken/disbanded squadrons. but that is another thread... i may type it out sometime.
We're already knee-deep in the nametapes: let's keep them, they don't look too bad.
Flightsuit nametages are another thing, hopefully those weren't in the plan (?)
In the grand scheme of things should this REALLY be that big of a deal? Seems like its time to get over it and accept it and move on to more important issues.
Doesn't really matter.
RE: The Generals involvement...
This is kinda like George Bush. His opponents blame everything on him as if he were some magical genie that could manipulate the world at his liesure.
Fact is, General Pineda is just a volunteer general with a made up rank, enjoying only the authority we and CAP/USAF grant him. He doesn't control the weather.
^Just glad Al Gore wasn't elected, we'd be freezin' our behinds off...
Quote from: LtCol White on August 24, 2007, 04:52:31 PM
In the grand scheme of things should this REALLY be that big of a deal? Seems like its time to get over it and accept it and move on to more important issues.
An end run around the rules is something WE should not move on from!
Last I looked in the CAP Constitution.......We are the Civil Air PAtrol, INC. If the wanted a branch tape that said "Civil Air Patrol, INC." I would accept it.
Quote from: Sgt. Savage on August 24, 2007, 05:07:52 PM
This is kinda like George Bush. His opponents blame everything on him as if he were some magical genie that could manipulate the world at his liesure.
Well figuring he is the most powerful man on this planet..........
Quote from: jimmydeanno on August 24, 2007, 05:09:43 PM
^Just glad Al Gore wasn't elected, we'd be freezin' our behinds off...
Naw, according to the Bush Calumny Machine, Al contributes more to global warming than almost anyone. Twenty room high energy mansion:::sheesh!
Being new and not having read any of the other discussions on the subject...
I kinda' like the "U.S." added to the tape. Heck, if I could wear another flag patch I would. ;)
I have a feeling that this topic has been beaten to death along with the reverse flag topic and other hot issues. Just my .02¢ as a new SM.
Quote from: O-Rex on August 24, 2007, 11:51:51 AM
We're already knee-deep in the nametapes: let's keep them, they don't look too bad.
I saw my first one last this week on one of my cadets. They look like crap. There's like a 16th of an inch between the first and last letters and the edge of the tape.
Besides it really sounds redundant to say U.S Civil Air Patrol, U.S. Air Force Auxiliary. The ONLY reason to add the U.S. to Civil Air Patrol is if you were trying to drop the U.S. Air Force Auxiliary...IMHO. I say it's gotta go.
Quote from: ELTHunter on August 24, 2007, 06:20:42 PM
The ONLY reason to add the U.S. to Civil Air Patrol is if you were trying to drop the U.S. Air Force Auxiliary...IMHO. I say it's gotta go.
And we have a winner! That may just be the original thought.
Going back a bit...
I don't remember the National Board voting on changing our name to USCAP. I just remember a policy letter from Führer Pineda saying 'Hey guys, guess what, we're the USCAP now!" And then a second policy letter saying "Oh yeah, it's just a PR branding thing, signature endings don't change"
*sigh*
They didn't vote to change our name. All they voted on was to add 'US" to the tapes on the BDUs and presumably the BBDUs. That hasn't stopped the wholesale rush to use it everywhere though.
Quote from: O-Rex on August 24, 2007, 11:51:51 AM
We're already knee-deep in the nametapes: let's keep them, they don't look too bad.
Flightsuit nametages are another thing, hopefully those weren't in the plan (?)
Knee deep is not over half. if the change was dropped, more would save money, than those would have to change back.
Keep drinking that Kool Aid SPARKY :o
I marked "I don't care". But I really hope they don't come out with new "cutouts" that say USCAP to replace the US on our service dress, or where it says "CAP"on our epaulets. That would suck!
Quote from: RAZOR on August 25, 2007, 02:28:12 AM
Keep drinking that Kool Aid SPARKY :o
And what "Kool Aid" would that be?
I actually like the addition of the U.S. to our name. I don't see that it takes away from our status as the AF Aux, it just serves the same purpose of the flag on our shoulder. There is nothing wrong with affiliating us with the United States since we are a federal level organization. I should think that we would be proud of it especially since everyone bitc... complained about the wing patches on the blues for so long.
I have the new tapes and I'm proud of the U.S.
Quote from: jaybird512 on August 25, 2007, 07:54:38 AM
I actually like the addition of the U.S. to our name. I don't see that it takes away from our status as the AF Aux, it just serves the same purpose of the flag on our shoulder. There is nothing wrong with affiliating us with the United States since we are a federal level organization. I should think that we would be proud of it especially since everyone bitc... complained about the wing patches on the blues for so long.
I have the new tapes and I'm proud of the U.S.
I think you are misconstruing what those of us who are against it are saying. We are already affiliated with the United States by having the U.S. Air Force Auxiliary connection. We already have the federal connection. Adding US to CAP is redundant. Do you see FEMA using USFEMA, or the National Weather Service using USNWS. No, those agencies display their affiliation to the federal government through their parent organizations. FEMA, U.S. Department of Homeland Security; and NWS, U.S. Department of Commerce.
Quote from: SJFedor on August 25, 2007, 01:06:52 AM
Going back a bit...
I don't remember the National Board voting on changing our name to USCAP. I just remember a policy letter from Führer Pineda saying 'Hey guys, guess what, we're the USCAP now!" And then a second policy letter saying "Oh yeah, it's just a PR branding thing, signature endings don't change"
*sigh*
Yet how many signature endings have I seen changed. A lot.
Quote from: ELTHunter on August 25, 2007, 01:27:54 PM
Quote from: jaybird512 on August 25, 2007, 07:54:38 AM
I actually like the addition of the U.S. to our name. I don't see that it takes away from our status as the AF Aux, it just serves the same purpose of the flag on our shoulder. There is nothing wrong with affiliating us with the United States since we are a federal level organization. I should think that we would be proud of it especially since everyone bitc... complained about the wing patches on the blues for so long.
I have the new tapes and I'm proud of the U.S.
I think you are misconstruing what those of us who are against it are saying. We are already affiliated with the United States by having the U.S. Air Force Auxiliary connection. We already have the federal connection. Adding US to CAP is redundant. Do you see FEMA using USFEMA, or the National Weather Service using USNWS. No, those agencies display their affiliation to the federal government through their parent organizations. FEMA, U.S. Department of Homeland Security; and NWS, U.S. Department of Commerce.
Well, as someone posted before it seems like only the blue tapes on the (B)BDUs are effected and no other changes have been mentioned/mandated. It doesn't make much sense since we wouldn't normally be wearing the uniform outside of the U.S. on a regular basis.... but not much makes sense about a lot of things it seems.
It just seems to me like our organization is always busy.... busy, busy, busy, and never staying the same. Always have to change something, or add something and then nothing is standardized or updated in the books. Amazing.
Silver Nameplate and blue nameplate for corporate blues = US CAP too...
Quote from: Major Carrales on August 24, 2007, 02:18:11 AM
One curious question...if the the Major General is converted to Citizen Pineda, who will the "focus of angst" be then? If they reveal some unpopular uniform or a change to the basic seal of the Civil Air Patrol...and Citizen Pineda is gone...will the powers that rant turn against Brig General Courter?
That is a serious question I am asking here.
We will move on Vanguard.
Vive la Resistance.
Vanguard is evil
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on August 26, 2007, 12:40:00 AM
Quote from: Major Carrales on August 24, 2007, 02:18:11 AM
One curious question...if the the Major General is converted to Citizen Pineda, who will the "focus of angst" be then? If they reveal some unpopular uniform or a change to the basic seal of the Civil Air Patrol...and Citizen Pineda is gone...will the powers that rant turn against Brig General Courter?
That is a serious question I am asking here.
We will move on Vanguard.
Vive la Resistance.
Vanguard is evil
Ditto.
Quote from: jaybird512 on August 25, 2007, 07:54:38 AM
I actually like the addition of the U.S. to our name. I don't see that it takes away from our status as the AF Aux, it just serves the same purpose of the flag on our shoulder. There is nothing wrong with affiliating us with the United States since we are a federal level organization. I should think that we would be proud of it especially since everyone bitc... complained about the wing patches on the blues for so long.
I have the new tapes and I'm proud of the U.S.
Personally I loved the Wing Patch being taken off because I felt it brought us more in line with the USAF. But when the US was added to
CAP I felt that we took a step away from the USAF. I fear that it was a move calculated to move us farther away from being the Air Force Aux.
Imdont like the name "US Civil Air Patrol". Civil Air Patrol was just fine with me. I don't want to put "US CAP" on the tail of our airplanes. There is nothing wrong with putting the CAP Seal on it like we used to have.
So what is the official name of our organization? What is written in the Constitution? The organization was Congressionally chartered as what again?
OH YA....Civil Air Patrol.
DOWN WITH U.S. CAP! Bring back Civil Air Patrol!!
Quote from: ELTHunter on August 25, 2007, 01:29:17 PM
Yet how many signature endings have I seen changed. A lot.
The reason is that they have changed is that we were ordered to change how we identify ourselves. The Law hasn't changed. Title 10 & 36 read just like they did before. MG Pineida said: You will identify yourselves as U.S. Civil air Patrol. Me, I refuse to do so until I have no other option than to leave.
Quote from: flyguy06 on August 26, 2007, 12:49:53 AM
Imdont like the name "US Civil Air Patrol". Civil Air Patrol was just fine with me. I don't want to put "US CAP" on the tail of our airplanes. There is nothing wrong with putting the CAP Seal on it like we used to have.
I really agree with you here, but there are some sound reasons for taking USAF Aux off, we can do more corporate missions now that we aren't as limited by the PCA as we were before.
Quote from: RogueLeader on August 26, 2007, 03:59:56 AM
Quote from: ELTHunter on August 25, 2007, 01:29:17 PM
Yet how many signature endings have I seen changed. A lot.
The reason is that they have changed is that we were ordered to change how we identify ourselves. The Law hasn't changed. Title 10 & 36 read just like they did before. MG Pineida said: You will identify yourselves as U.S. Civil air Patrol. Me, I refuse to do so until I have no other option than to leave.
Quote from: flyguy06 on August 26, 2007, 12:49:53 AM
Imdont like the name "US Civil Air Patrol". Civil Air Patrol was just fine with me. I don't want to put "US CAP" on the tail of our airplanes. There is nothing wrong with putting the CAP Seal on it like we used to have.
I really agree with you here, but there are some sound reasons for taking USAF Aux off, we can do more corporate missions now that we aren't as limited by the PCA as we were before.
I agree with your first statement. If and when the name is changed ON PAPER (the CAP Constitution) I will accept it. Until then, it is only one of wacky TP's idea's.
Second statement, is that the real reason the name was taken off the planes? If so, how can Federal assets (like helicopters) be used by the Army National Guard to "hunt" for drug lords in the United States? I am not a lawyer, I only had a minor in business law (glad I didn't stay pre-law).
I thought the reason for the change was because there was some Brazilian organization that called themselves CAP. I thought that was the reason we changed in the first place. Did I miss something there?
Quote from: mikeylikey on August 26, 2007, 04:15:32 AM
Second statement, is that the real reason the name was taken off the planes? If so, how can Federal assets (like helicopters) be used by the Army National Guard to "hunt" for drug lords in the United States? I am not a lawyer, I only had a minor in business law (glad I didn't stay pre-law).
First Statement: Don't know,, it was the reason that I remember being told.
Second: They are on State orders, on the States dime. We would be acting as the AF Aux, which is prohibited by PCA from doing some of these missions, if AF AUX were on the Tail, as we have CAP, or now US CAP, we can do those same missions as ANG, as we are doing them as CAP, USAF aux- NOT as USAF Aux. That single differentiation really keys to a whole new level.
Third: I'm not either. I just had Ag Law, and a number of talks with the IAWG legislative liaison, now the IAWG CV.
I did stay at a Holiday Inn though. . . . ;)
^ Cool, thanks :)
We used to have the CAP Seal on the tail of our airplanes. What was wrong with that? Put it back pn.
Well, you know when the CAP seal was on the tail, it made it easier for the terrorists and drug runners to go find our planes and blow them up. Wait, have we lost any planes to terrorist or drug activities? hmmmm.... something ain't right.....
*beats head on wall*
Quote from: flyguy06 on August 26, 2007, 04:01:12 PM
We used to have the CAP Seal on the tail of our airplanes. What was wrong with that? Put it back pn.
Same problem as having USAF AUX. Remember, the seal says "UNITED STATES AIR FORCE AUXILIARY" on it.
Quote from: LtCol White on August 26, 2007, 11:47:56 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on August 26, 2007, 04:01:12 PM
We used to have the CAP Seal on the tail of our airplanes. What was wrong with that? Put it back pn.
Same problem as having USAF AUX. Remember, the seal says "UNITED STATES AIR FORCE AUXILIARY" on it.
Can't have that...
I just had a meeting with the MER/CC Col Walling to dicuss some other business not pertaining to CAP.
However I did ask her about the US CAP Tapes and found out that it was a NEC decission and not a big Pineda idea and that they will stay and not to expect to see any of the uniform changes to be reversed.
She however agreed instead of rolling all the changes out at a different time they should have gathered all the changes up and just come out with all of the changes at once instead of over time like they have been doing.
That may be his understanding, but the fact that it was personally brought forward by MG Pineda while skipping the uniform committee demonstrates that what few formal procedures we have for promulgating uniform changes were ignored in this case, and since he was the person standing up and proposing it, I can't help but say that he was behind it.
By the way, where in the NEC minutes does it say that this idea was discussed and approved by them?
Lets not forget.......did the AF approve the change to the tapes on the BDU's? Everything else has to be approved if it is going on that uniform.
Quote from: mikeylikey on August 26, 2007, 01:22:20 AM
So what is the official name of our organization? What is written in the Constitution? The organization was Congressionally chartered as what again?
OH YA....Civil Air Patrol.
DOWN WITH U.S. CAP! Bring back Civil Air Patrol!!
And bring back the
USAF Auxiliary!!!
So I just wrote a press release about some promotions, and being new to CAP, I wrote "U.S. Civil Air Patrol, the auxiliary of the U.S.Air Force". Reading it in the paper, it struck me that the double "U.S" seemed a little redundant and forced.
It is forced. Just get a good dose of Wally, and it won't bother you any more. With regards to Scott Adams.
By the way, the National Guard (Army and Air) are the only military forces charged with law enforcement in the United States (aside from State Guards/Militias), but only when on a State Mission and/or State Active Duty.
When on Federal mission or active duty, the Guard is considered to be the regular Army/Air Force.
USCAP is prohibited from doing law enforcement. All we can do is support LE with observation and transport flights.
QuoteBy the way, the National Guard (Army and Air) are the only military forces charged with law enforcement in the United States (aside from State Guards/Militias), but only when on a State Mission and/or State Active Duty.
You forgot the Coast Guard.
Just thought I'd remind everybody that the majority of respondents who had an opinion, were wrong. So much for the collective wisdom of our group >:D
Hah. I replied I don't care, and I don't care. Given a choice that said "I hope the go", I would have chosen that. So yes, I'm very happy the US part is gone.
33 thought this was stupid or didn't care. I'd say they were right.