"US" and "CAP" on AF/TPU service Coat

Started by NAYBOR, May 05, 2007, 04:27:05 AM

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NAYBOR

I remember in a previous post that someone stated that the AF would like to see more similarity and uniformity between AF and CAP uniforms.

I had typed up a whole suggestion list for this post, with what could be incorporated with both the TPU and AF coat/uniforms, but I've tried twice to type it up and it was erased.  I'm frustrated, so I'll post the pictures now of what I suggest, with a picture comparing what is currently authorized to what is proposed.

I'll repost my list later when I calm down a bit.

Enjoy!





SarDragon

Sorry, gotta say ugh. The styles of the insignia are different and it just looks out of lace.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
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C/WO, CAP, Ret

JohnKachenmeister

My first reaction would be that it would be a serious PITA to line up both letters perfectly. 

You would have to design a whole new pice of flair.

Do you own stock in Vanguard?
Another former CAP officer

NAYBOR

#3
LOL!  No, I don't own stock in Vanguard.  All I did was line up the top of the 'A' in "CAP" with the 1st period after the 'U' in "US".

I know the "CAP" letters overlap the lapel seam, but I figured "so what".  It centers all of the letters on the lapel itself.

This is what I figured--center the "U.S." as is currently regulated--centered on the lapel seem, parallel to the ground.  Then center the "CAP" device underneath it, with the top of the 'A' in "CAP" lined up with the 1st period after the 'U' in "US".  On the TPU Coat, you'd center the "U.S." as was done previously (on the bottom center of the upper lapel), and center "CAP" underneat of it, centering the 'A' in "CAP", etc. etc. as is done on the AF coat.

There are more suggestions to this.  All of the suggestions go together, in my mind.  I hope they will in yours, too.  It's a beautiful day outside, so I'm gonna go enjoy!  See ya all later!

MIKE

Meh... I think I'll just defect and wear these: Linky  Or if not those, maybe these: Linky
Mike Johnston

DNall

please God don't give them any ideas on how to rape more money from me!!! Plus that's ugly!! and I HATE this whole USCAP thing, that's total crap.

Mil ribbons aren't happening on TPU. AF didn't ask for CAP uniforms to be more like AF. They want us to quit creating a bunch of crap & having dif wear policy than the AF. Be consistent in following their lead was the marching order. The TPU is a TP creation (hence the slang) when the AF flat refused to allow any latitude on the ht/wt or metal grade even with distinguishing factors like changing the US for CAP or adding CAP to the epaulet as well.

Hawk200

I don't care for it. Personnally, I wouldn't be bothered if they went back to CAP cutouts. Just take CAP off the epaulets, it's already spelled out on the nametags. And maybe make a version with a circle for NCO's, making it fall inline with the Air Force. Having officers wear "U.S.", and NCO's wear "C.A.P." doesn't seem right.

Standardize the nameplates. Put the "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" below the name (I think it would just look better), and wear it on both the AF service coat, and on the TPU. Maybe for the blazer, make one with holes for the mini sized rank, but it would literally only be drilling holes for it, not a different design. For the "TPU Lite", use the same nameplate as blue shirts.

I think we have too many things that say "CAP" on the uniform. If it says it one place, that's enough. The gray epaulettes are distinctive enough anyway. And for NCO's, just make stripes on a gray background. Gray is different enough. Don't need bells and whistles too. Vanguard has the fabrics and materials to do it already. It wouldn't take much.

DNall

#7
Quote from: Hawk200 on May 05, 2007, 09:24:56 PM
Standardize the nameplates.
Absolutely. The blue two-line nameplate (from white shirt) on white & blue shirts for both cadets & adults, period. Silver nametag on both style service coats, pref the one line AF style.

While you're at it, standardize wear rules everything on both (badges, etc), AND that includes embroidered versions of badges worn in the same place on BDUs as they are on blues (which means less patches for adults).

QuoteI think we have too many things that say "CAP" on the uniform. If it says it one place, that's enough. The gray epaulettes are distinctive enough anyway. And for NCO's, just make stripes on a gray background. Gray is different enough. Don't need bells and whistles too. Vanguard has the fabrics and materials to do it already. It wouldn't take much.
Gray background stripes sound good, but I'd like to see some. I thnk they'd be dramatically expensive for starters. I also don't think they'd contrast very well btwn the stripes & background. If you're going to go to that kind of trouble, why not just embroider a big red prop on top of the star in the center of standard stipes & see what that looks like. If you've seen the urban pattern stripes, those are a good fit as well for being gray & distinctive. If you went further to embroider a prop on those, then I think you're set.

I do agree that it only needs to say CAP once on the uniform & that's it. The nametag is planty as far as I'm concerned. Certainly the "CAP" can be taken off the gray slides, even the color blind can tell the dif on those. On the other hand, I think "CAP" should be put on the blue slides in laying the groundwork to standardize to that in the future when everyone is comfortable with it again.

These are the ABU ones, urban had grey back with blue stripes, kind of like a negative image of the normal ones, but the colors were a little subdued down so it looked good, can't fine a pic off hand, but they're around.

NAYBOR

#8
A lot of suggestions above made by Hawk and DNall I was going to make and agree with.

I did the above idea as a way to get metal rank back.  I'm OK with the CAP device on the service coat too, but prefer keeping the "U.S."  But using the "CAP" device would be in keeping with SDFs and others that use military uniforms do.  The only other thing I see used by SDFs and others is a different color nametag.  Maybe CAP could consider this--I'd suggest the blue 2-line (with name first and "US Civil Air Patrol" 2nd) for the service coats of the TPU and AF.  This would then be distinctive from the silver name tag of the AF, and distinguishable from a distance as not being an AF Officer.  Give us hard rank back, darnit!  The SDFs and others have it--why are we being treated like red-headed step-children?

We need blue AF epaulletes with "CAP" embroidered for both TPU and AF uniforms.  This would be another consistency between the uniforms, besides those stated above.

BDU's for EVERYONE.  There should be no restrictions for weight with these uniforms.  If someone can't tell that the person wearing a CAP BDU is a CAP officer, etc. with all of that neon blue and "CAP" all over it, they have issues!

DNall, I like the suggestion of using the ACU rank for Service Dress and BDUs (I assume BDUs too).  It's already available, is grey, and consistent with a CAP-type AF uniform.

DNall, I don't know if your comment about mil ribbons were directed at the picture of the coat I posted with mil ribbons on it, but you'll notice that that's an AF service coat, with AF mil ribbons above the CAP ribbons.   I thought mil ribbons were authorized for the TPU shirts and service coat anyways.  That's what the CAP Uniform PowerPoint presentation (from the CAP website) and other areas of the CAP website state, if I recall correctly.

More suggestions to follow...

DNall

I'm pretty certain mil ribbons/badges are not authorized on the corp-style combinations. I think they ought to be, but that's AF's call.

The ABU stripes above I know that may look like a gray background, but it's actually a khaki/green kind of like ACUs. I don't know how good these would look on the blue shirt or white shirt either since we're talking consistancy. I'd also be careful cause we're going to be in ABUs one day & we don't want trouble downstream because of this. There are urban camo stripes I've seen (which are apparently impossible to find) that better fit the bill.

There's only a couple hundred NCOs in CAP. I'm not sure anything radical is a good idea unless we start making our own NCOs (which I'm all for). If we were to go to the trouble of making our own (gray background & such) then you could instead just change the star in the center to a prop/tringle/blue circle & then there's no use of the background changing colors unless you really want it to.

The easier solution is we can go to all embroidered on gray eplauet slides nco stripes & that's very reasonablly priced. While doing that, fix the reg to allow Amn-SrA & cut the outdated Sgt rank. I'd test out all those stripes deas & see what works best.

Also, we need a plain blank gray slide for SMWOG, and rename that rank to officer candidate. Then the label of senior member can be flushed for good (adult member/program or officers/staff used as appropriate).

Hawk200

Quote from: DNall on May 05, 2007, 11:26:25 PM
Gray background stripes sound good, but I'd like to see some. I thnk they'd be dramatically expensive for starters. I also don't think they'd contrast very well btwn the stripes & background. If you're going to go to that kind of trouble, why not just embroider a big red prop on top of the star in the center of standard stipes & see what that looks like. If you've seen the urban pattern stripes, those are a good fit as well for being gray & distinctive. If you went further to embroider a prop on those, then I think you're set.

I don't understand he reasoning to a prop on the stripes, I don't like the idea of modifying  the basic design. My idea is to use the same fabric as the epaulets, and just embroider the chevron on the gray fabric, instead of a navy blue background. I think it would look fine, but I can't show you any, as they don't exist, at present. Vanguard has those materials, and it would only be a matter of feeding a different fabric into the same machine that embroiders them. The thread would remain the same white it is now. I would however only use the gray background on blues, and the white dress shirts, I think we should use the standard blue background stripes on the BDU/BBDU, and on the ABU once we adopt it.

I think putting a red prop on it might look cartoonish, and CAP should get away from that. And considering Vanguard's proclivity to make money, that would probably be considered commisioning a completely new design. We can't afford that. I'm also considering our new Command Cheif position, and that we will most likely have more NCO's in the near future, so we should be considering implementing NCO rank insignia.

All in all, my idea for the service dress coat and TPU coat would be this: Collar brass would be CAP cutouts; a two line nametag with name on top, "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" on bottom; officers would wear a gray epaulette with rank insignia (no CAP embroidered on it, it's on the collar), NCO's a stripe with a gray background. Everything else would remain as is.

Overall, the goal would be to use minor color and insignia differences to create subtle variations from the AF uniform. Someone could immediately tell from a distance the stripes, once closer would note the collar brass, and closer still the nameplate. We don't want to look exactly like the AF, just fairly close without differences that are a glaring standout.

mikeylikey

Quote from: Hawk200 on May 06, 2007, 01:29:26 PM
All in all, my idea for the service dress coat and TPU coat would be this: Collar brass would be CAP cutouts; a two line nametag with name on top, "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" on bottom; officers would wear a gray epaulet with rank insignia (no CAP embroidered on it, it's on the collar), NCO's a stripe with a gray background. Everything else would remain as is.

Why do we need a change?  All this conversation has done is opened the general membership up to another uniform change.  Once NHQ sees this expect a interim change letter mandating "USCAP" cutouts and a permanent change to the two-line nameplate for the AF-style uniform. 

My response to the first posted proposal, N-O!  Looks terrible.  Good try though! 

What's up monkeys?

DNall

#12
Quote from: Hawk200 on May 06, 2007, 01:29:26 PM
I don't understand he reasoning to a prop on the stripes, I don't like the idea of modifying  the basic design. My idea is to use the same fabric as the epaulets, and just embroider the chevron on the gray fabric, instead of a navy blue background.
In general, I like the idea. However, I got two issues with it:
1) Price:You're talking like they'll just grab some fabric & do some embroidery. Sure they can do that, but they don't make the standard stripes now, and a partially embroidered patch of that size would be VERY pricy. Maybe they can go to the standard manufacture & get something done, but I'm still thinking price ranges like mess dress boards. And these are sew on, so they have to get multi-sets & they wear out faster than what you can do with ep-slides. I still think we should consider getting rid of all sleeve stripes & going to just embroidered on gray ep-slides. It may not be very popular, but it's smart.

2) Appearance: I'm not sure white stripes on a med-gray background would look right, seems like it'd blend too much. You might have to darken up the gray considerablly to make it look really good, or you could go to blue stripes on the gray back. Either way I think we ought ot just use standard subdued stripes on the BDU, and standard white/blue on the BBDU, that seems like a no brainer.


Other then that I think we're in agreement on the rest.... well collar brass, I think it ought to jsut stay the way it is. AF came to us I believe about wearing the US, just add that NCOs should wear the circle style, and move on. Frankly I'm not sure why that was an issue on the TPU coat & I'd try to get it put back there, even if that means going to grade slides over metal grade (blue with "CAP" embroidered on them). Yeah other then that we're good.

DNall

Quote from: mikeylikey on May 06, 2007, 05:08:26 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on May 06, 2007, 01:29:26 PM
All in all, my idea for the service dress coat and TPU coat would be this: Collar brass would be CAP cutouts; a two line nametag with name on top, "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" on bottom; officers would wear a gray epaulet with rank insignia (no CAP embroidered on it, it's on the collar), NCO's a stripe with a gray background. Everything else would remain as is.

Why do we need a change?  All this conversation has done is opened the general membership up to another uniform change.  Once NHQ sees this expect a interim change letter mandating "USCAP" cutouts and a permanent change to the two-line nameplate for the AF-style uniform. 

My response to the first posted proposal, N-O!  Looks terrible.  Good try though! 
You's saying that to someone who already said they didn't like the collar brass above... Nat CC already said they were changing all nametags to say "US Civil Air Patrol." I don't like that at all, but since we're doing it anyway, we should consolidate down from the 8 or so dif nametags used in CAP & bring it down to two, the silver for service dress & standardized blue for everything else (cadet & adult).

Hawk200

Quote from: DNall on May 06, 2007, 06:24:51 PM
1) Price:You're talking like they'll just grab some fabric & do some embroidery. Sure they can do that, but they don't make the standard stripes now, and a partially embroidered patch of that size would be VERY pricy.

What Vanguard are you buying from? This one makes them: http://www.vanguardmil.com/insignia/main_categories.php?nav=airforce&sg1=ENLISTED%20RANK&sg1name=Enlisted%20Rank&sg1nav=ENLISTED%20RANK&subnavIndexer=79

Quote2) Appearance: I'm not sure white stripes on a med-gray background would look right, seems like it'd blend too much. You might have to darken up the gray considerablly to make it look really good, or you could go to blue stripes on the gray back. Either way I think we ought ot just use standard subdued stripes on the BDU, and standard white/blue on the BBDU, that seems like a no brainer.

It may blend a little, how about some darker epaulettes, and stripes? Make it a little more charcoal perhaps? Of course, it would be another change, but I think the stripe background and the epaulette color should match. Which in turn should match the nametag color. I just don't think we should prepare to get back metal rank insignia on our service coats, or blue epaulettes with CAP on them. We act like we're preparing for it, and the AF is going to notice, and probably isn't going to be very accomodating. I think we ought to look at being distinctly different, still professional, but also still inline with our mother branch.

I doubt the AF would buy off on subdued stripes. I just don't see it happening. Standard blue stripes would look OK on the ABU if the tapes were navy. Since, upon adoption of the ABU, people would have to buy new stuff anyway, it's not really an issue.

QuoteOther then that I think we're in agreement on the rest.... well collar brass, I think it ought to jsut stay the way it is. AF came to us I believe about wearing the US, just add that NCOs should wear the circle style, and move on.

I can agree with that. I'm more concerned with uniformity, and circled insignia for NCO's would be inline with that. "US" for officers, and "CAP" for NCO's isn't uniform. And seems a little wierd.

QuoteFrankly I'm not sure why that was an issue on the TPU coat & I'd try to get it put back there, even if that means going to grade slides over metal grade (blue with "CAP" embroidered on them). Yeah other then that we're good.

Maybe another case of the AF not hacking off on it. It would probably look cobbled, another thing we should get away from. With minor distinct differences, we should be able to maintain our own identity, but still be seen as an Air Force component (more or less).

And speaking of cobbled, I think the original idea that was started in this thread is an example of that. As was pointed out, the font type doesn't match; not to mention, no branch of the military does it that way either.

DNall

Quote from: Hawk200 on May 06, 2007, 07:13:41 PM
What Vanguard are you buying from? This one makes them
They sell them, they don't make them. They make very little of thier product, mostly they are just a whosale/retail outfit. Either way, I'm still thinking expensive cause it's not the mass produced item.

Quote
Quote2) Appearance:
It may blend a little, how about some darker epaulettes, and stripes? Make it a little more charcoal perhaps? Of course, it would be another change, but I think the stripe background and the epaulette color should match. Which in turn should match the nametag color. I just don't think we should prepare to get back metal rank insignia on our service coats, or blue epaulettes with CAP on them. We act like we're preparing for it, and the AF is going to notice, and probably isn't going to be very accomodating. I think we ought to look at being distinctly different, still professional, but also still inline with our mother branch.
Charcoal sounds better, again I'd have to see samples made up by vanguard or whomever for testing.

We have been preparing for metal grade & blue slides coming back since the day they left & will never do anything but that until the day they return. The AF knows that, and changes their mind on how they feel about things from administration to administration.

I don't think we need ot be crossing any lines to the extent we're breaking rules or pissing people off, but I'm just saying I don't love gray. Black now maybe I'd be more open to, I think that'd look good.

The nametags should be the same color as the standard AF nametag, but with the second line under, and that shouldn't have anything to do with the grade slides. In fact if we are going to stick to gray slides w/ CAP on them, then we should just use the standard one line AF nametags, just like JROTC/ROTC/USAFA does. That'd make things a lot cheaper & easier access.

QuoteI doubt the AF would buy off on subdued stripes. I just don't see it happening. Standard blue stripes would look OK on the ABU if the tapes were navy. Since, upon adoption of the ABU, people would have to buy new stuff anyway, it's not really an issue.
I think they look goofy. The new ABU material is ACU colored. It's gonna look seriously wierd. I think the standard subdued stripes are fine, I think the AF would buy that, especially considering we're tlaking about retired or active NCOs that could just as easily wear their retired AF uniform w/ no modifications.

My plan for ABUs would be white or gray on OD background for everything. The ABU tapes will be on camo background, the badges are on a kahki looking background. I think it's gonna look ugly, just like the ACUs do.

QuoteWith minor distinct differences, we should be able to maintain our own identity, but still be seen as an Air Force component (more or less).
I don't want us to maintain our own identity. I want us to be an auxiliary component of the AF with the minimal changes to the uniform mandated by them to meet the techincal rule of law, but otherwise standing side by side on the same team. I don't believe we need ot have our own colors (gray) or any such crap. The standards by which SDFs get by should be in the same field of view when looking at CAP. I really belive we as an organization should be a federal level SDF for the AF, I blieve that's what "auxiliary" means, and I belive we need to kick it into gear to get there.

I think uniforms is a small part of that picture, but it's a good place to start in getting consistent & presents a critical professional image... dressing for the job we want rather than the job we have. Along the way I think it dramatically helps the ops & relationships we deal with now.

CAP006

It is wrong that we have to change our uniforms. How are they going to fit the US next to the Civil Air Patrol on our BDU's? Any ideas?
CAP 006 = one away from the Big Shot

C/2nd. Lt. Robert Dahms
Cadet ES Officer
Cadet Comm's Officer
Color Guard Commander
MER-NC-023

Hawk200

Quote from: CAP006 on May 08, 2007, 10:53:27 AM
It is wrong that we have to change our uniforms. How are they going to fit the US next to the Civil Air Patrol on our BDU's? Any ideas?

Like this: http://www.civilairpatrolstore.com/store/view_product.php?product=20389

They're already being made, sold, and more than a few here already have them sewn on.

SAR-EMT1

I just want to say that I would not support getting a US CAP nametag OR getting rid of the current gray or silver nametags in order to get hard rank. - ALL you are doing is giving something up to get something back.
At least the gray nametag says USAF Auxiliary, Whereas I just saw a gas station manager wearing a gold bar on his collar.
I even asked about it... "its the standard symbol of authority, here's your change" .... >  sheesh. <  tread lightly people, British Petroleum is gunnin for you.
C. A. Edgar
AUX USCG Flotilla 8-8
Former CC / GLR-IL-328
Firefighter, Paramedic, Grad Student

DNall

Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on May 08, 2007, 01:47:56 PM
I just want to say that I would not support getting a US CAP nametag OR getting rid of the current gray or silver nametags in order to get hard rank. - ALL you are doing is giving something up to get something back.
At least the gray nametag says USAF Auxiliary,
I understand & would agree with you, BUT it's already been stated from on high that the name is changing to US CAP & it's going on all the nametags. I don't like it, but it's facts. If that's the case, then why not use the time to consolidate down to one nametag style for most uniform combinations (leave the silver stuff how it is).

That still won't get you metal grade back. We're not discussing any kind of tradeoff, just standardization.

As for why change to gray back stripes? Cause it gets the cutouts off & looks consistent with the rest of our grade structure.