Just wondering if any Senior Members would be willing to share their initial experiences as they joined CAP. I have found my experience (2 years) riddled with emotions ranging from skepticism of whether this organization would be a positive experience, to feeling like I am making a difference, to now being completely discouraged and angry and wishing I never heard of CAP at all. I understand all organizations have their ups and downs, however of all the volunteering I have done with youth organizations in my 40 plus years, I have found CAP to be a huge disappointment. Looking for a silver lining.
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At the end of the day, it tends to get down to the leadership at the local level.
I'm supposing that you're in a sq, having been in CAP 2 years.
The "quality" of local unit leadership can vary, wildly, from "incredible" to "abysmal," and sometimes the difference is a CAPF27.
I joined CAP as a senior member as a way to "give back" for the great things I learned as a cadet 10 years prior. My initial experience was mixed; getting reacquainted with the program was interesting, and interacting with cadets was rewarding. I made new friends, learned some new skills, and ended up being the squadron commander within 3 years. Learning to be "flexible" was the most important thing back then. I also needed to stay "calm and collected". It helps to acquire these...
I stood focused on my goals, and have enjoyed "the ride" during smooth and turbulent times. I've learned to make that difference; just sought out the opportunities and went with them.
One of the questions I would ask is if you are brand-new to CAP or if you are a former cadet. The reason I ask is that many people off the street, or with prior service and no CAP experience can and do feel a lot of frustration at the way things are run. This ain't a Boy/Girl Scout troop or a youth group, so the differences are really apples and snakes. You can eat both but one will bite you in the hindparts before you can wrangle it around to your point of view.
2 years is about the average length of time that people get fed up with anything, in my opinion. It can depend on the leadership, as NIN said, or the people, or even your wing. I've been in 3 wings and 6 units since 1981. I've left 2 units for personal reasons that did not have to do with CAP itself and finally found a home with the sister unit to my initial cadet squadron. 2 years in as a brand new senior after a 6 year break from being a cadet was an eye opener in itself. I'd always wanted to be a SM, because they didn't have to march, stand in formation in the rain, and get yelled at for having unshined shoes. When I found out that my expectations were wrong, and that it involved actual work. there was a learning curve for me. Now, instead of marching in the rain and getting yelled at for having unshined shoes, I was the one expected to set the example. I was young, and some of the cadets didn't respect mah authoritah, though I always had an impeccable uniform and knew how to render proper C&C. Frustration set in. I'd given up several times, threatened to quit, but in the end, I stopped worrying about ME and started worrying about THE CADETS. They are my customer, my end-product. When a cadet leaves the program for the service, or a service academy, or whatever civilian job they want, it's nice to hear from them that CAP (not so much me) had a lot to do with it. Yes, I had a hand but I take no credit. I gave them the tools, they used them.
Not having had any outside experience with other youth organizations other than a brief stint in Cub Scouts, I can't really relate to the perspective you have. I can say that CAP has evolved and changed since 1981 and I was able to absorb the changes. CAP will continue to bury itself in bureaucracy and line items and the good ol' boy networks and politics, but in the end, as NIN said, 2 years in, your experience is pretty much at the local level, and the experience runs the gamut of good to horrible. I've been there. And stayed in.
To be honest, CAP isn't for everyone. Even some former cadets-turned-seniors leave because of the changes and attitudes displayed by the people around them. It's a totally different animal from what you are used to.
You need to get beyond relying on the SQ to satisfy your needs in CAP. If you haven't, try to get involved in more outside activities at the Grp or Wing level. And do a serious self evaluation. Are you sitting back waiting for someone else to make CAP interesting for you, or are you the rare mythical member who makes CAP actually happen? I dont know you, nor does you post suggest either side of the coin. Just something I would tell people who are thinking about joining. Many people, especially pilots, think they are going to join CAP and that every meeting is going to be commercial pilot ground school. Well..... its not. Not even close. But what I also noticed was that none of those people ever stepped up to make it that either. They were there to get what they could.... not give what they could.
Juice,
I've been in a little longer than you have (but not by much). I did a lot of research before joining. I wanted something fulfilling, rewarding, challenging, but most importantly not a waste of my time. Over the years I have shared the exact same emotions you listed. I'm also not sure what my future will be with this organization. There are parts of this program that I absolutely love. There are other parts that make me so frustrated, like you, I wish I had never joined at all. I understand you may not feel comfortable sharing, but would you mind giving me/us a little insight into your complaints? I'm curious if our frustrations are at all similar.
I joined CAP shortly after my child took an interest in the program. After being the "parent" for a time and noticing the local squadron could use some help (the program and all its components seemed to really need a lot of adult support to be successful) I joined as a parent sponsor and offered my help to all the senior members and helped out everywhere I could. At the urging of the other Senior Members they asked me to join as a full Senior Member so, I could assist with things they needed help with that only members could do like admin, personnel, cadet, etc. This is where things became fullfilling and as you all stated working with the cadets is rewarding. I have worked with Girl Scouts, 4H, baseball teams, hockey teams, basketball teams, youth ministry groups, and PTAs. There are always personalities and poor leadership in every organization, but CAP seems to have some underlying group of individuals that do whatever they can to hide poor behavior rather than trying to call it into the light and correct it. Most other organizations I have volunteered with have discussed the issues, proposed solutions, discussed the best options, implemented one and moved on. If it involved an individual, things were discussed with that person by the leadership and worked out in a positive way if at all possible. These organizations also had better systems than I have seen so far in CAP of checks and balances in place to ensure everything down to the local levels are being managed in compliance with the groups overall goals. I haven't seen anything in CAP that ensures this type of oversight. The SUI process doesn't seem to provide any continuity either. One squadron seems so much different than another. Perhaps, as suggested it might be a Wing or higher up issue. If that is the case, how does this change? How does this large organization create some continuity from squadron to squadron across the states and nations. In my short tenure, I have had the opportunity to work on Wing and Region projects and in one squadron people are educated and guided and at others left to their own devices. Some squadrons are private clubs where you are not welcomed and others open and welcoming to all. Leadership is also inconsistent. Some squadrons have a commander appointed because thats the only person willing to take it to other squadrons who have a person who logically would have been placed in the position after being in the program long enough to understand the workings of the organization. The cadet programs differ a lot as well. Some don't have much going on at all and others participate in aerospace activities, teach the emergency services, and work the customs and coutesies. It seems National has done a great job of providing the curriculum, but rolling it out to the local levels in a way even a thinly staffed squadron can implement is non-existent. I have seen the same things on the senior side. National announces guidances and activities and ecercises and rolling out those opportunities to the local squadrons is not happening. Without some basic consistentsies in the program it makes any persons experience something from great to horrible. Am I wrong?
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Quote from: Juice on May 01, 2016, 06:22:52 PM
I joined CAP shortly after my child took an interest in the program. After being the "parent" for a time and noticing the local squadron could use some help (the program and all its components seemed to really need a lot of adult support to be successful) I joined as a parent sponsor and offered my help to all the senior members and helped out everywhere I could. At the urging of the other Senior Members they asked me to join as a full Senior Member so, I could assist with things they needed help with that only members could do like admin, personnel, cadet, etc. This is where things became fullfilling and as you all stated working with the cadets is rewarding. I have worked with Girl Scouts, 4H, baseball teams, hockey teams, basketball teams, youth ministry groups, and PTAs. There are always personalities and poor leadership in every organization, but CAP seems to have some underlying group of individuals that do whatever they can to hide poor behavior rather than trying to call it into the light and correct it. Most other organizations I have volunteered with have discussed the issues, proposed solutions, discussed the best options, implemented one and moved on. If it involved an individual, things were discussed with that person by the leadership and worked out in a positive way if at all possible. These organizations also had better systems than I have seen so far in CAP of checks and balances in place to ensure everything down to the local levels are being managed in compliance with the groups overall goals. I haven't seen anything in CAP that ensures this type of oversight. The SUI process doesn't seem to provide any continuity either. One squadron seems so much different than another. Perhaps, as suggested it might be a Wing or higher up issue. If that is the case, how does this change? How does this large organization create some continuity from squadron to squadron across the states and nations. In my short tenure, I have had the opportunity to work on Wing and Region projects and in one squadron people are educated and guided and at others left to their own devices. Some squadrons are private clubs where you are not welcomed and others open and welcoming to all. Leadership is also inconsistent. Some squadrons have a commander appointed because thats the only person willing to take it to other squadrons who have a person who logically would have been placed in the position after being in the program long enough to understand the workings of the organization. The cadet programs differ a lot as well. Some don't have much going on at all and others participate in aerospace activities, teach the emergency services, and work the customs and coutesies. It seems National has done a great job of providing the curriculum, but rolling it out to the local levels in a way even a thinly staffed squadron can implement is non-existent. I have seen the same things on the senior side. National announces guidances and activities and ecercises and rolling out those opportunities to the local squadrons is not happening. Without some basic consistentsies in the program it makes any persons experience something from great to horrible. Am I wrong?
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The CAP experience is wildly inconsistent. One squadron can be nothing short of being run like a military unit where you would swear every member gets a pay check to be there, yet the one 10 miles away can meet in the janitors closet at a local YMCA with a desk and a filing cabinet and the members come to meetings and talk about everything BUT CAP.
"Am I wrong?"...
Juice, your experiences are not unique. My attempts to keep sane at the unit level were to insure the program was followed the best way possible. When I was in a squadron, my focus was to deal with my primary objectives, while helping the other senior members deal with theirs, as best I could. As I continued to advance in knowledge and skills, I sought ways to improve the squadron, and its programs. Sometimes it just pays to "step up". I made the decision to take a leadership role to make things better. I never took the position of "it's always been done that way".
CAP has a great cadet program. It's senior member PD program isn't that shabby either; it just takes some time, commitment, and patience. If you haven't already done so, I would suggest taking CAP courses which will increase your level of the program, become able to make some changes to squadron operations, and have a more consistent positive outlook. Everyone has "those days". I guess it just depends on what you want out of CAP, though. It is up to you.
As a Senior, you REALLY have to just take complete and total responsibility for your own program. If you want it, you have to go get it. That may sound easier said than done, but CAP is a neat program. I know people come from varied situations, and finances can sometimes be a burden. When I was younger there were many things I wanted to be a part of that finances just didnt allow. Traveling, lodging, paying for conferences. That can make a member feel trapped at their local unit.
Quote from: FW on May 01, 2016, 06:49:10 PM
"Am I wrong?"...
Juice, your experiences are not unique. My attempts to keep sane at the unit level were to insure the program was followed the best way possible. When I was in a squadron, my focus was to deal with my primary objectives, while helping the other senior members deal with theirs, as best I could. As I continued to advance in knowledge and skills, I sought ways to improve the squadron, and its programs. Sometimes it just pays to "step up". I made the decision to take a leadership role to make things better. I never took the position of "it's always been done that way".
CAP has a great cadet program. It's senior member PD program isn't that shabby either; it just takes some time, commitment, and patience. If you haven't already done so, I would suggest taking CAP courses which will increase your level of the program, become able to make some changes to squadron operations, and have a more consistent positive outlook. Everyone has "those days". I guess it just depends on what you want out of CAP, though. It is up to you.
I guess the fact that I did "step up" and helped organize a group of seniors willing to "step up" too and we worked hard, made positive changes, and were doing our best to stay true to the program to come across some of the leadership dysfunction is what was discouraging. Other members have told us to just hang in there until leadership changes, but that seems so unfair to everyone in the program, but apparently that seems to be a norm in the local organization which seems weird to me. Why would leadership discourage members from running curriculum developed at National? I guess my choices are to sit back and wait for leadership change like the others did before and are willing to do again and deal with the disappointment of watching all our hard work go by the wayside or put my time and talent to use somewhere else where it is more appreciated and/or supported. I guess the thing I struggle with most is feeling like I left people I recruited cadets and seniors a like down and promoted a program that now isn't going to be what we as a group were putting together. A lot of the adults that were helping us have also walked away at the frustration, its just sad.
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Part of any volunteer activity is "is it worth it".
Bottom line is that is up to you. If you don't seem to be getting value for your time. I suggest that you first let your command know...so they can try to make changes. Secondly.....take a break. Come back in 3 months and see if things are better. Finally.....if it is not worth it......find something else to do. Life is too short to be wasting your precious time on something that is not fulfilling.
Good luck.
I can understand, Juice...and thanks for sharing. In my non-CAP life I am an organizational development consultant and the frustrations that you mention are pretty common in all types of organizations....which thankfully pays the bills for me, but makes it frustrating for people in it. Resistance to change is huge and is deeply imbedded. I have been a part of CAP for about 8 months and have heard the phrase, "That'll never work." "That's not how we do things." "I've already tried that." many times and it frustrates me everytime!
There are many things in my current squadron that I like and things I'd change if I could. For me, I think I'm new enough that much of it is still new and fresh-and honestly, it's a break from my "real life" responsibilities and duties, which makes the frustrating things less frustrating at times. I have chosen to focus on what I have direct control over and not on the things that I don't have control over.
I agree with lordmonar that letting the command know of your concerns is a good step-keeping in mind that it may or may not change anything. At least you did what you could do. Then, if it isn't working for you, stepping away isn't a bad idea, which can provide you some much needed time to reflect on your CAP experience and see which way you want to move forward.
CAP is a great organization with lots of strengths and lots of flaws....best of luck to you on the road ahead!
I've been in CAP for three years and have gone through the same yo-yo feelings that you have with very similar stories in my own squadron experience. I joined at the same time as another SM and since we were in similar life stages and interests, he and I became very good friends. He's also a pilot with about 1000 hours, ex-Army and wanted to help out. Neither of us have children in the program (in my case, I joined because I was doing a "big brother" kind of thing with the son of a close family friend).
First eighteen months were great as we learned a ton; went through emergency service training; he got his Mission Pilot rating and I trained up to be a Mission Observer. We flew missions together and developed SAREXs involving both ground and air teams and got involved in Group level activities. At the squadron, most of the other SMs were close friends who had kids in the program or were ex-cadets who grew into SM ranks.
At the 18 month mark, things started changing. Our squadron commander was told they had to relinquish command after being in the CC position for 10 years. One of the "inner circle" took over command and relied on his buddies who were and are still around. At the same time, Wing and Group commanders changed. I also got more involved at more senior level roles with multiple hats and so got visibility into the politics of the organization.
Some of those politics included the new Wing Commander not liking the old Squadron Commander and therefore seeking to close down the squadron; planes being shuffled around to the Good Old Boy postings and taken away from various airfields to be "concentrated" in others. And many other changes. Were all of them bad? no. But they were all perceived as negative...
My friend decided to give up about six months ago. He basically resigned from CAP and is now flying for another non-profit and is happy as a clam there. The squadron I'm part of is shrinking markedly in terms of SM numbers, but our cadet program is growing because of a good corps of current cadets who are NCOs and who are recruiting like mad. Having taken TLC, I can see that we are NOT conducting the cadet program according to National's curriculum and when I brought this up with the current Squadron Commander, his answer is that this is the way he wants it run.
I'm in it to help the cadets and the organization. I have no ego in this and therefore can laugh off some of the silly things I see and hear. I've gotten involved in other operational areas at both Group and Wing level while still taking care of my squadron duties. I know that if I wanted to be the next Squadron Commander and set all these things to rights, I could do that. However, I have no desire to fill that role so I am attempting to improve things in small ways that are under my control and be a model of this behavior to the "old guard" and we'll see how it goes.
I just renewed my membership for the fourth year and am looking forward to earning a MASTER rating in a Specialty Track as well as taking some other Professional Development courses. I will continue to affect the cadets and listen as the "old guard" moans and groans...
Ultimately, it's up to you to decide whether CAP is the place to spend your time and money. If you are frustrated every time you have a CAP interaction - like my friend was - then it's time to go elsewhere. Why not enjoy yourself when you are contributing to something you enjoy?
Quote from: Juice on May 01, 2016, 03:46:13 PM
Just wondering if any Senior Members would be willing to share their initial experiences as they joined CAP. I have found my experience (2 years) riddled with emotions ranging from skepticism of whether this organization would be a positive experience, to feeling like I am making a difference, to now being completely discouraged and angry and wishing I never heard of CAP at all. I understand all organizations have their ups and downs, however of all the volunteering I have done with youth organizations in my 40 plus years, I have found CAP to be a huge disappointment. Looking for a silver lining.
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I am a bit over 2 years in as a SM, and I am a former cadet.
The only times I have been really annoyed with the program have been when I have located arbitrary barriers to advancement of professional development. Making my concerns known has resulted in a lot of those barriers crashing down, and hopefully soon all of them will be gone. I should note that I've dedicated an immense amount of time to focusing on the Cyberpatriot program which has resulted in me being insulated from a lot of the politics that was happening while I was busy teaching cadets how to secure images and read obscure text files.
I've been very lucky in that my squadron has a good mix of both knowledgeable people and people who are dedicating a significant amount of time toward various aspects of the program. I don't know if it makes a difference, but we have a few military vets (Army, AF, one active ANG) that are really putting in the extra effort that I think is helping keep everything together.
A later comment you made is something that I want to call attention to though:
QuoteCAP seems to have some underlying group of individuals that do whatever they can to hide poor behavior rather than trying to call it into the light and correct it.
This is something that I have yet to run into. For this blessing, I am thankful.
That being said, there are some things for me that I would do if I saw this happening.
The first question to ask yourself is this:
1. Do the issues at hand rise to the level that requires reporting to CAP as a Waste, Fraud, and/or Abuse issue?
I hope I never run into this problem, but if it does happen, I'll make sure to report it, and preferably nip the problem before it rises to a reportable incident. Details on that here:
http://www.capmembers.com/cap_national_hq/inspector_general/fraud-waste-and-abuse/ (http://www.capmembers.com/cap_national_hq/inspector_general/fraud-waste-and-abuse/)
2. Are the issues at hand significant enough to impede the CAP missions but not significant enough to be an issue outlined in the above link?
Are you running into the following issues:
a. The Peter Principle
b. The Good Old Boys Network
c. The Voluntold Leader
d. Bad Personal Dynamics
e. The You Problem
In reverse order, e. is the easiest one to talk about. Are you at every single meeting? Every volunteer function? Every mission? If this is the case, you might be suffering from Burnout. This becomes a time to evaluate which meetings and events you actually NEED to be present at instead of showing up at all of them. A good test of this is to look at the PVSA rules for awards for adults:
http://www.presidentialserviceawards.gov/the-award (http://www.presidentialserviceawards.gov/the-award)
If you are hitting the award categories without even trying, you might be putting in a lot of extra time in CAP compared to your compatriots, and cutting back, even temporarily, might be a good plan.
d. The suckiest of all problems. Sometimes, you and the Boss just don't see eye to eye. Neither you nor your commander can come to an accord. In CAP, I see 3 solutions to this problem: 1. Become the commander. 2. Find another squadron. 3. Become a patron member for the duration of their command. I'm open to better solutions.
c. This sucks, but not as bad as d. The last commander left, a new commander has stepped in, he/she is unqualified, and they know it. They want to do a good job, but they don't have the tools to do the job. The best answer here is delegation and volunteerism. Figure out how you and various members can step in and do some heavy lifting that helps the commander function better and breathe easier. Point them at training opportunities when they come up and help cover for them if the training means they aren't at a couple meetings. If the Voluntold Leader is willing but unable, this will rapidly help them get to willing and able.
b. I am open to solutions.
a. This is like c, except the leader may have stepped up, but in both cases, the leader is unable, and in this case, unwilling to adapt to their role, regardless of what support people bring to bear. At this point, documentation of issues, attempted resolutions, and a packet forwarded on up the chain becomes the answer. If the packet is intercepted/squashed by b., this becomes in my opinion a question 1 problem.
So, hopefully this screed helps you out, please don't act on it immediately as I am certain that many members with more experience than I will chime in on the various issues I mentioned along with providing a giant stack of extra cautions about what happens when you invoke the answer to question 1 (Waste/Fraud/Abuse) and how no matter what the result is, SOMEONE won't be in the squadron by the end of it.
Quote from: Starfleet Auxiliary on May 02, 2016, 12:49:47 AM
Quote from: Juice on May 01, 2016, 03:46:13 PM
Just wondering if any Senior Members would be willing to share their initial experiences as they joined CAP. I have found my experience (2 years) riddled with emotions ranging from skepticism of whether this organization would be a positive experience, to feeling like I am making a difference, to now being completely discouraged and angry and wishing I never heard of CAP at all. I understand all organizations have their ups and downs, however of all the volunteering I have done with youth organizations in my 40 plus years, I have found CAP to be a huge disappointment. Looking for a silver lining.
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I am a bit over 2 years in as a SM, and I am a former cadet.
The only times I have been really annoyed with the program have been when I have located arbitrary barriers to advancement of professional development. Making my concerns known has resulted in a lot of those barriers crashing down, and hopefully soon all of them will be gone. I should note that I've dedicated an immense amount of time to focusing on the Cyberpatriot program which has resulted in me being insulated from a lot of the politics that was happening while I was busy teaching cadets how to secure images and read obscure text files.
I've been very lucky in that my squadron has a good mix of both knowledgeable people and people who are dedicating a significant amount of time toward various aspects of the program. I don't know if it makes a difference, but we have a few military vets (Army, AF, one active ANG) that are really putting in the extra effort that I think is helping keep everything together.
A later comment you made is something that I want to call attention to though:
QuoteCAP seems to have some underlying group of individuals that do whatever they can to hide poor behavior rather than trying to call it into the light and correct it.
This is something that I have yet to run into. For this blessing, I am thankful.
That being said, there are some things for me that I would do if I saw this happening.
The first question to ask yourself is this:
1. Do the issues at hand rise to the level that requires reporting to CAP as a Waste, Fraud, and/or Abuse issue?
I hope I never run into this problem, but if it does happen, I'll make sure to report it, and preferably nip the problem before it rises to a reportable incident. Details on that here:
http://www.capmembers.com/cap_national_hq/inspector_general/fraud-waste-and-abuse/ (http://www.capmembers.com/cap_national_hq/inspector_general/fraud-waste-and-abuse/)
2. Are the issues at hand significant enough to impede the CAP missions but not significant enough to be an issue outlined in the above link?
Are you running into the following issues:
a. The Peter Principle
b. The Good Old Boys Network
c. The Voluntold Leader
d. Bad Personal Dynamics
e. The You Problem
In reverse order, e. is the easiest one to talk about. Are you at every single meeting? Every volunteer function? Every mission? If this is the case, you might be suffering from Burnout. This becomes a time to evaluate which meetings and events you actually NEED to be present at instead of showing up at all of them. A good test of this is to look at the PVSA rules for awards for adults:
http://www.presidentialserviceawards.gov/the-award (http://www.presidentialserviceawards.gov/the-award)
If you are hitting the award categories without even trying, you might be putting in a lot of extra time in CAP compared to your compatriots, and cutting back, even temporarily, might be a good plan.
d. The suckiest of all problems. Sometimes, you and the Boss just don't see eye to eye. Neither you nor your commander can come to an accord. In CAP, I see 3 solutions to this problem: 1. Become the commander. 2. Find another squadron. 3. Become a patron member for the duration of their command. I'm open to better solutions.
c. This sucks, but not as bad as d. The last commander left, a new commander has stepped in, he/she is unqualified, and they know it. They want to do a good job, but they don't have the tools to do the job. The best answer here is delegation and volunteerism. Figure out how you and various members can step in and do some heavy lifting that helps the commander function better and breathe easier. Point them at training opportunities when they come up and help cover for them if the training means they aren't at a couple meetings. If the Voluntold Leader is willing but unable, this will rapidly help them get to willing and able.
b. I am open to solutions.
a. This is like c, except the leader may have stepped up, but in both cases, the leader is unable, and in this case, unwilling to adapt to their role, regardless of what support people bring to bear. At this point, documentation of issues, attempted resolutions, and a packet forwarded on up the chain becomes the answer. If the packet is intercepted/squashed by b., this becomes in my opinion a question 1 problem.
So, hopefully this screed helps you out, please don't act on it immediately as I am certain that many members with more experience than I will chime in on the various issues I mentioned along with providing a giant stack of extra cautions about what happens when you invoke the answer to question 1 (Waste/Fraud/Abuse) and how no matter what the result is, SOMEONE won't be in the squadron by the end of it.
Thank you for your response. This is helpful. I am experiencing some of a, b, d, and e. E is probably the reason I feel so guilty about just walking away. Myself and the group of seniors doing the majority of the work put so much time and effort in to the program that coming across some of a, b, and d is discouraging and frustrating. I am use to volunteering at places and realize it is always a small group of individuals that carry the load and am shocked at why, when people have stepped up, those same people would be met with resistance from higher ups to stop doing the good things your doing. All we can think is it is something personal or jealously that our squadron was coming together better than others in the area. We are all just shaking our heads wondering what the real underlying issue is. Things won't change because when we tried the Good O'Boys network came out in force. Hence my comments about just being angry over it all and wishing I never heard of CAP at all. I have to say the responses to my initial question just add to the discouragement to know that this behavior seems to be the "norm" in the organization and perhaps the fear of change or people electing to walk away rather than fight for change is permitting things to go on as usual. The real sad thing is the organization will not improve nor is it developing the young leaders as well as it could with some consistency and continuity in the program. Thanks again for sharing your experience.
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For being a new guy, this is a great post to read!!! When I was first thinking of joining, I visited a squadron, and was absolutely turned off by this squadron and was not going to volunteer at all. Kind of hard to be prior service and walk in seeing SM in complete disarray and cadets walking around without guidance. Then a friend suggested I visit a couple of other squadrons and re-evaluate CAP. I followed this advise and am happy I did so, because I believe I have found one to best suit my personality and will allow me to work in a capacity where I am needed without the good ole boy type of drama. Sad that not every unit believes in the program or following CAP regulations, and is being used for everything else besides what the program is meant for. Hope you can find a change that will encourage you to stick with the program!!! Hopefully I won't hit the same ceiling in two years. :-\
Quote from: grunt82abn on May 03, 2016, 10:34:24 PM
For being a new guy, this is a great post to read!!! When I was first thinking of joining, I visited a squadron, and was absolutely turned off by this squadron and was not going to volunteer at all. Kind of hard to be prior service and walk in seeing SM in complete disarray and cadets walking around without guidance. Then a friend suggested I visit a couple of other squadrons and re-evaluate CAP. I followed this advise and am happy I did so, because I believe I have found one to best suit my personality and will allow me to work in a capacity where I am needed without the good ole boy type of drama. Sad that not every unit believes in the program or following CAP regulations, and is being used for everything else besides what the program is meant for. Hope you can find a change that will encourage you to stick with the program!!! Hopefully I won't hit the same ceiling in two years. :-\
061....where is that? Waukesha? I can't remember even my old unit number in Milwaukee.
John Maxwell has a principle that goes like this: "Everything rises and falls with leadership." I have been in the program now for 20 years. Even within the area where I spend the majority of my service - the Chaplain Corps - experiences the same issues described in the aforementioned posts. There have been a least two occasions where I was ready to say, "Thank you --- it was fun...but not real fun" and pursue other adventures. Though I thoroughly enjoyed and was blessed by serving on some outstanding Commanders, some of the time serving within the Chaplain Corps wasn't so enjoyable.
Since joining CAP, there have been seven men who have occupied the "big chair" as the Chief of Chaplains...3 of which I would rank very high and say they have had the greatest impact on the Chaplain Corps and the organization (and this number includes the current Chief who began his tenure in 2014). You really appreciate the oasis during the trek in the desert. What I believe the signature differences in these three men are from the others is/was their style of leadership: they listen to their people; they trust their people; they didn't micro-manage; though they had a vision/purpose/mission that they shared they did not have a personal agenda; they put the organization first and wanted what was best.
There are times in any organization -- be it volunteer or not -- where individuals have a position for which they do not have the personal temperament, the skills sets, etc. needed to lead others, They may be good (or somewhat good) managers but they are not leaders. What is often the saddest part is that often they are so set in their ways, they do not want to learn by reading or interacting with others.
It is a great experience when you fall into a situation which makes everything you do feel worthwhile. So keep looking for that silver lining...it does appear.
Chappie hits it on the head, as usual.
Quote
For being a new guy, this is a great post to read!!! When I was first thinking of joining, I visited a squadron, and was absolutely turned off by this squadron and was not going to volunteer at all. Kind of hard to be prior service and walk in seeing SM in complete disarray and cadets walking around without guidance. Then a friend suggested I visit a couple of other squadrons and re-evaluate CAP. I followed this advise and am happy I did so, because I believe I have found one to best suit my personality and will allow me to work in a capacity where I am needed without the good ole boy type of drama. Sad that not every unit believes in the program or following CAP regulations, and is being used for everything else besides what the program is meant for. Hope you can find a change that will encourage you to stick with the program!!! Hopefully I won't hit the same ceiling in two years.
I'm glad you found a place to serve. Thats important.
The motivations that drive membership in the organization can run an interesting gamut.
Some people are motivated by fruit salad or rank. Some are motivated by their perceived worth in the program, the ability to contribute to the mission, or the ability to wear the uniform. Some get their motivation from recognition. Still others get theirs from the satisfaction of a job well done or the sincere thanks of a former cadet who went on to do well.
Its important to be sure you understand the motivations of the folks around you, and work with it. If you have an officer who won't do a big project unless he knows he's gonna get some kind of chest-candy for it at the end, well, entice him with candy (or, not, depends on the circumstance). Some folks just want a little recognition. Done right, thats darn near free: newsletter mention, press-release, a hearty handshake and thank you in front of the crowd at the open house, etc.
I've been around for about 6 years now. Sometimes in my current role, I wonder what the future of the Wing will hold, but I think back to a motivational picture that was on my desk for many years - Innovation: The best way to predict the future is to create it. Sometimes you just need to embrace that in what you are doing.
When I heard the comment that once you put on the uniform you are no longer a volunteer I knew my days in CAP were numbered.
Quote from: Cliff_Chambliss on May 09, 2016, 01:46:05 PM
When I heard the comment that once you put on the uniform you are no longer a volunteer I knew my days in CAP were numbered.
The answer to that sort of silliness is rather simple:
"You got a regulation to back up that theory?"
Quote from: Starfleet Auxiliary on May 09, 2016, 03:38:00 PM
Quote from: Cliff_Chambliss on May 09, 2016, 01:46:05 PM
When I heard the comment that once you put on the uniform you are no longer a volunteer I knew my days in CAP were numbered.
The answer to that sort of silliness is rather simple:
"You got a regulation to back up that theory?"
I've heard that comment as well. When I hear it, I smile; and that smile is more of a grimace... It is a totally unproductive statement to make, has no basis in reality, and is one reason membership is declining.
Some of us had the silver lining ripped away...I know that is not a popular view on CT, where most criticism of CAP is "frowned upon," nor is this poster, who has been told he should just "forget CAP and move on," but that is not easy to do when one has given multiple years (decades) to an organisation that he can no longer be a part of and hurts over it.
Quote from: CyBorg, dessen Name nicht in CAP gesprochen wird on May 09, 2016, 05:07:14 PM
Some of us had the silver lining ripped away...I know that is not a popular view on CT, where most criticism of CAP is "frowned upon," nor is this poster, who has been told he should just "forget CAP and move on," but that is not easy to do when one has given multiple years (decades) to an organisation that he can no longer be a part of and hurts over it.
C'mon now. Half the posts from Eclipse are critical of CAP. No one frowns upon that.
Also, welcome back?!? Again? Eh? Maybe?
Quote from: Cliff_Chambliss on May 09, 2016, 01:46:05 PM
When I heard the comment that once you put on the uniform you are no longer a volunteer I knew my days in CAP were numbered.
That comment is full of....bird feathers. While venting my spleen with a dear friend who had been my commander about why -- at that time -- I was looking to bail, that was one of the reasons. I felt like I was being forced into a couple of situations that I could not support nor something I was not interested in doing (these were not command related to him...but peer pressure). He told me -- Col wings and all...backed with all the years of experience in CAP -- "CAP is a VOLUNTEER organization. You can volunteer to do something or you can volunteer not to do something....it's your choice." That was so liberating. Since then, I have said "no" to a few things and never felt a twinge of guilt or regret.
I haven't been to my squadron's meetings in nine months, and I've discovered that I really have no desire to go back.
Quote from: Garibaldi on May 03, 2016, 11:49:15 PM
Quote from: grunt82abn on May 03, 2016, 10:34:24 PM
For being a new guy, this is a great post to read!!! When I was first thinking of joining, I visited a squadron, and was absolutely turned off by this squadron and was not going to volunteer at all. Kind of hard to be prior service and walk in seeing SM in complete disarray and cadets walking around without guidance. Then a friend suggested I visit a couple of other squadrons and re-evaluate CAP. I followed this advise and am happy I did so, because I believe I have found one to best suit my personality and will allow me to work in a capacity where I am needed without the good ole boy type of drama. Sad that not every unit believes in the program or following CAP regulations, and is being used for everything else besides what the program is meant for. Hope you can find a change that will encourage you to stick with the program!!! Hopefully I won't hit the same ceiling in two years. :-\
061....where is that? Waukesha? I can't remember even my old unit number in Milwaukee.
Milwaukee Squadron 5
Quote from: Chappie on May 09, 2016, 07:34:27 PM
Quote from: Cliff_Chambliss on May 09, 2016, 01:46:05 PM
When I heard the comment that once you put on the uniform you are no longer a volunteer I knew my days in CAP were numbered.
That comment is full of....bird feathers. While venting my spleen with a dear friend who had been my commander about why -- at that time -- I was looking to bail, that was one of the reasons. I felt like I was being forced into a couple of situations that I could not support nor something I was not interested in doing (these were not command related to him...but peer pressure). He told me -- Col wings and all...backed with all the years of experience in CAP -- "CAP is a VOLUNTEER organization. You can volunteer to do something or you can volunteer not to do something....it's your choice." That was so liberating. Since then, I have said "no" to a few things and never felt a twinge of guilt or regret.
I had the same conversation with the Wing Chaplain, now retired. Like you say...very liberating and quite proper!
Definition of Silver Lining:
A hopeful or comforting prospect in the midst of difficulty.
Quote from: Panache on May 10, 2016, 06:43:56 AM
I haven't been to my squadron's meetings in nine months, and I've discovered that I really have no desire to go back.
From my own 3 month hiatus, I found that it's a lot easier to stay away once you do it for a few meetings. After week 3-4, it's no big deal to keep on skipping.
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 10, 2016, 02:20:41 PM
From my own 3 month hiatus, I found that it's a lot easier to stay away once you do it for a few meetings. After week 3-4, it's no big deal to keep on skipping.
And that's the risk for units that take long periods of time off, either in the summer, or at the end of the year. This is especially a problem for cadets,
but members in general need the continuity of activity to stay involved and invested.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 10, 2016, 02:22:20 PM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 10, 2016, 02:20:41 PM
From my own 3 month hiatus, I found that it's a lot easier to stay away once you do it for a few meetings. After week 3-4, it's no big deal to keep on skipping.
And that's the risk for units that take long periods of time off, either in the summer, or at the end of the year. This is especially a problem for cadets,
but members in general need the continuity of activity to stay involved and invested.
What does "...I will attend meetings regularly and participate actively in unit activities..." mean? You might think about that before skipping a lot.
Quote from: Chica on May 10, 2016, 07:36:31 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on May 10, 2016, 02:22:20 PM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 10, 2016, 02:20:41 PM
From my own 3 month hiatus, I found that it's a lot easier to stay away once you do it for a few meetings. After week 3-4, it's no big deal to keep on skipping.
And that's the risk for units that take long periods of time off, either in the summer, or at the end of the year. This is especially a problem for cadets,
but members in general need the continuity of activity to stay involved and invested.
What does "...I will attend meetings regularly and participate actively in unit activities..." mean? You might think about that before skipping a lot.
You seriously need to slow your roll.
The senior member oath is not the same as the cadet oath. I strongly suggest you start reading more and posting less.
Quote from: Chica on May 10, 2016, 07:36:31 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on May 10, 2016, 02:22:20 PM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 10, 2016, 02:20:41 PM
From my own 3 month hiatus, I found that it's a lot easier to stay away once you do it for a few meetings. After week 3-4, it's no big deal to keep on skipping.
And that's the risk for units that take long periods of time off, either in the summer, or at the end of the year. This is especially a problem for cadets,
but members in general need the continuity of activity to stay involved and invested.
What does "...I will attend meetings regularly and participate actively in unit activities..." mean? You might think about that before skipping a lot.
Don't forget "obey my officers".
Quote from: Starfleet Auxiliary on May 10, 2016, 07:50:47 PM
Quote from: Chica on May 10, 2016, 07:36:31 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on May 10, 2016, 02:22:20 PM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 10, 2016, 02:20:41 PM
From my own 3 month hiatus, I found that it's a lot easier to stay away once you do it for a few meetings. After week 3-4, it's no big deal to keep on skipping.
And that's the risk for units that take long periods of time off, either in the summer, or at the end of the year. This is especially a problem for cadets,
but members in general need the continuity of activity to stay involved and invested.
What does "...I will attend meetings regularly and participate actively in unit activities..." mean? You might think about that before skipping a lot.
You seriously need to slow your roll.
The senior member oath is not the same as the cadet oath. I strongly suggest you start reading more and posting less.
Sorry, I forgot most you are senior members. Didn't they change it from senior member to adult member?
Quote from: Chica on May 10, 2016, 07:57:19 PM
Quote from: Starfleet Auxiliary on May 10, 2016, 07:50:47 PM
Quote from: Chica on May 10, 2016, 07:36:31 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on May 10, 2016, 02:22:20 PM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 10, 2016, 02:20:41 PM
From my own 3 month hiatus, I found that it's a lot easier to stay away once you do it for a few meetings. After week 3-4, it's no big deal to keep on skipping.
And that's the risk for units that take long periods of time off, either in the summer, or at the end of the year. This is especially a problem for cadets,
but members in general need the continuity of activity to stay involved and invested.
What does "...I will attend meetings regularly and participate actively in unit activities..." mean? You might think about that before skipping a lot.
You seriously need to slow your roll.
The senior member oath is not the same as the cadet oath. I strongly suggest you start reading more and posting less.
Sorry, I forgot most you are senior members. Didn't they change it from senior member to adult member?
Does that change the OP, or anything here?
Just curious.....
Quote from: Chica on May 10, 2016, 08:04:18 PM
Just curious.....
Then do a search for other posts about it, and if you don't find anything, ask a question in the appropriate subforum, in its own thread.
Or I could ask you....
That's not how forums work.
Why are you making things difficult?
Quote from: Chica on May 10, 2016, 08:11:44 PM
Why are you making things difficult?
The same could be asked of you. Seriously. Log off Captalk and study the regs.
I have been lucky I suppose with a good squadron, though small and remote (3 hours) from the center of gravity in NM. I am 2.5 years in CAP, and have been frustrated by wing, BC of distance and timing of wing-provided programs. However my squadron CO has been in a long time and is highly qualified and very supportive. I have been able to set up training schedules, plans, etc and have achieved MS and MO and almost GT1 qualifications. The aero stuff was fast because of our pilots, but the ground stuff has been, all "in house." I really expect no help from Wing. If you can find a "protector" who will approve your plans to pursue your goals, then you make it happen. If I had waited for Wing, I still wouldn't have GTM3.
And it is easier to get forgiveness than permission, but always read the regs first.
I just realized I've been away from CAP for three years now. I'd like to go back, but I can say with great certainty that I wouldn't go back to the same unit I'd been with, even if it meant driving a good distance to be part of a better unit. Sadly, there were heavy leadership problems in my former unit. If a person didn't mesh with the personal politics of the senior leadership, they'd go nowhere. If a cadet didn't mesh with the religious leanings of the cadet leadership, they went nowhere. Activities were canned fare, fundraisers were weak at best, community involvement and relationships were non-existent.
Thing is, I know that's not all of the units. As my own kids (one of whom was a cadet while I was on the senior side) get older and want to become involved again, I wouldn't mind getting back into CAP... but it will certainly be with eyes open wider than I had five years ago when I started Involvement #2 with CAP in that particular unit - the leadership problems went back to the days of WIWAC, too.
Fully agree. Much of what I have been doing has been remote and I almost talked myself into just dropping and not renewing because I didn't have the time. The only reason is as a former cadet I still feel a debt to CAP for what it allowed me to become. I was at a leadership conference the other day where Coach Nick Saban was one of the guest speakers and he said "every thank you comes with an IOU. I owe you my best". That kind of stuck with me.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 10, 2016, 02:22:20 PM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 10, 2016, 02:20:41 PM
From my own 3 month hiatus, I found that it's a lot easier to stay away once you do it for a few meetings. After week 3-4, it's no big deal to keep on skipping.
And that's the risk for units that take long periods of time off, either in the summer, or at the end of the year. This is especially a problem for cadets,
but members in general need the continuity of activity to stay involved and invested.
Quote from: Starfleet Auxiliary on May 09, 2016, 03:38:00 PM
Quote from: Cliff_Chambliss on May 09, 2016, 01:46:05 PM
When I heard the comment that once you put on the uniform you are no longer a volunteer I knew my days in CAP were numbered.
The answer to that sort of silliness is rather simple:
"You got a regulation to back up that theory?"
Hypothesis, not theory. It's not a theory until you have something that is arguably substantial to back it up. ;)
Quote from: Jaison009 on May 11, 2016, 09:53:15 PM
I was at a leadership conference the other day where Coach Nick Saban was one of the guest speakers and he said "every thank you comes with an IOU. I owe you my best". That kind of stuck with me
My wife was part of that same seminar. She had a lot of good things to say about Saban, and Rorke Denver. She said Wozniak was hard to follow, kind of scattered and random. ;D
My own IOU is to the nation as a whole. I figure I owe giving something back. It's what drove me to enlist at the tender/idiotic age of 17, it's what's driven me to become involved (briefly) in local politics, and it's what drove me to be part of CAP. And it's looking more and more like we're going to take a drive one of these weeks to a unit and feel it out again. Seems I've raised my kids right, because they feel that same pull to be involved and be giving back.
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 09, 2016, 05:33:58 PM
Quote from: CyBorg, dessen Name nicht in CAP gesprochen wird on May 09, 2016, 05:07:14 PM
Some of us had the silver lining ripped away...I know that is not a popular view on CT, where most criticism of CAP is "frowned upon," nor is this poster, who has been told he should just "forget CAP and move on," but that is not easy to do when one has given multiple years (decades) to an organisation that he can no longer be a part of and hurts over it.
C'mon now. Half the posts from Eclipse are critical of CAP. No one frowns upon that.
Also, welcome back?!? Again? Eh? Maybe?
Who won a the pool? >:D
Quote from: Juice on May 01, 2016, 06:22:52 PM
I joined CAP shortly after my child took an interest in the program. After being the "parent" for a time and noticing the local squadron could use some help (the program and all its components seemed to really need a lot of adult support to be successful) I joined as a parent sponsor and offered my help to all the senior members and helped out everywhere I could. At the urging of the other Senior Members they asked me to join as a full Senior Member so, I could assist with things they needed help with that only members could do like admin, personnel, cadet, etc. This is where things became fullfilling and as you all stated working with the cadets is rewarding. I have worked with Girl Scouts, 4H, baseball teams, hockey teams, basketball teams, youth ministry groups, and PTAs. There are always personalities and poor leadership in every organization, but CAP seems to have some underlying group of individuals that do whatever they can to hide poor behavior rather than trying to call it into the light and correct it. Most other organizations I have volunteered with have discussed the issues, proposed solutions, discussed the best options, implemented one and moved on. If it involved an individual, things were discussed with that person by the leadership and worked out in a positive way if at all possible. These organizations also had better systems than I have seen so far in CAP of checks and balances in place to ensure everything down to the local levels are being managed in compliance with the groups overall goals. I haven't seen anything in CAP that ensures this type of oversight. The SUI process doesn't seem to provide any continuity either. One squadron seems so much different than another. Perhaps, as suggested it might be a Wing or higher up issue. If that is the case, how does this change? How does this large organization create some continuity from squadron to squadron across the states and nations. In my short tenure, I have had the opportunity to work on Wing and Region projects and in one squadron people are educated and guided and at others left to their own devices. Some squadrons are private clubs where you are not welcomed and others open and welcoming to all. Leadership is also inconsistent. Some squadrons have a commander appointed because thats the only person willing to take it to other squadrons who have a person who logically would have been placed in the position after being in the program long enough to understand the workings of the organization. The cadet programs differ a lot as well. Some don't have much going on at all and others participate in aerospace activities, teach the emergency services, and work the customs and coutesies. It seems National has done a great job of providing the curriculum, but rolling it out to the local levels in a way even a thinly staffed squadron can implement is non-existent. I have seen the same things on the senior side. National announces guidances and activities and ecercises and rolling out those opportunities to the local squadrons is not happening. Without some basic consistentsies in the program it makes any persons experience something from great to horrible. Am I wrong?
Sent from my LG-D415 using Tapatalk
I'm sorry your experience in CAP hasn't been entirely great. Unfortunately, as it has been stated already, CAP can differ greatly from squadron to squadron. CAP is also a very cyclical organization, meaning people come and go, which greatly affects the organization in one way or another.
My experience has been mostly positive. CAP is not perfect, but it's still a great organization. What I've come to realize is that you get from CAP what you put in. Of course, that doesn't work for everyone. But for the most part, it's true.
My recommendation is to, first, do what you can to improve your squadron. If you're unable, then consider joining a different unit, if possible. Sometimes taking on a different job or participating in activities outside your squadron can do wonders to reenergize you. If that doesn't work, then consider taking a break. Many of us have. I was gone for over a decade and have been full throttle since I rejoined a few years ago.
I hope your experience improves. But ultimately, you need to decide whether CAP is worth your time. I know it's worth mine. Good luck!
Rorke was one of my favorite too. Talked about leaders tend to focus on the spear and sword but if you look at the Spartans, the leaders carried the shield. If you didn't come back with your shield, it was a capital offense and meant the lives to the left and right were not as important as your own. His trident takeaways were great:
* Win the gunfight first- Figure out whatever your gun fight is and be victorious in that first
* Play without a safety net
* Balance your behaviors- 90% of the time your people should know how you are going to act/behave/respond. The other 10% throw them curveballs.
Sportscaster James Brown was probably my favorite his message was depth before height. "The depth is what determines the height of success in any undertaking". Without a proper foundation to support success, we cannot achieve or handle height.
Great stuff.
Quote from: Pump Scout on May 12, 2016, 01:47:56 PM
Quote from: Jaison009 on May 11, 2016, 09:53:15 PM
I was at a leadership conference the other day where Coach Nick Saban was one of the guest speakers and he said "every thank you comes with an IOU. I owe you my best". That kind of stuck with me
My wife was part of that same seminar. She had a lot of good things to say about Saban, and Rorke Denver. She said Wozniak was hard to follow, kind of scattered and random. ;D
My own IOU is to the nation as a whole. I figure I owe giving something back. It's what drove me to enlist at the tender/idiotic age of 17, it's what's driven me to become involved (briefly) in local politics, and it's what drove me to be part of CAP. And it's looking more and more like we're going to take a drive one of these weeks to a unit and feel it out again. Seems I've raised my kids right, because they feel that same pull to be involved and be giving back.