Previous and Future CAP Uniforms

[SARDOC]

Are there still Major USAF Commands still wearing the BDU?  It's been a long time since I've seen anybody in the air force wearing them?  All I see now are ABU's and Flight Suits except for Mondays of Course.

No, but the TPU has been.

Everyone tell me what good would come about having a uniform that separates us from USAF?

Everyone tell me what good would come from separating CAP from the major entity that has given us the chance to have our history?

Tell me why you are in an organization that has roots to the military and has a rank structure that runs the same as USAF when you hate it so much.

First...I love the shared History we have with the Air Force...I love the affiliation.
Second....We are already separated from that "Major Entity" when we went Corporate...Officially we are only the Auxiliary when performing AFAM's.  That was their decision to separate from us.
Third, our uniforms should represent our organization and be functional for our purposes.  If we should look like the Air Force because they are our parent service...then we should change when they do...It's the One Team, One Fight concept.  But we Shouldn't look TOO Military...people might think we are the Air Force...Really? Either we are or we aren't.  And although we have some great supporters in the Air Force some people are getting really mixed signals from them and would rather just change uniforms then dealing with the politics because apparently the Air Force must have a patent on the color blue.

And as most regular CAPTALK member's know...you know what happens when you infringe on someones else's trademark.

[Tim Medeiros]

Are there still Major USAF Commands still wearing the BDU?  It's been a long time since I've seen anybody in the air force wearing them?  All I see now are ABU's and Flight Suits except for Mondays of Course.

Mandatory wear date is less than a year out and, from what I've heard and read, it is still the individuals choice whether or not to wear them yet, though I'm sure there are gonna be those who wait until the very last day.  BMT has been issuing ABUs since FY07, so the "new" guys are likely not in BDUs right now.

[Persona non grata]

Tim, last time I talked to you I thought you were going security forces?      Cyber Ops?

Back on topic.............

[Tim Medeiros]

Tim, last time I talked to you I thought you were going security forces?      Cyber Ops?

Back on topic.............

That was going to be the case, until my hearing test at MEPS wasn't as good as I had hoped.  In the middle of trying to get my hearing retested the 3D0X2 job was given to me.  Seeing as it was #2 on my wish list, I decided to not put up a fuss.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Everyone tell me what good would come about having a uniform that separates us from USAF?

It wouldn't.  I prefer wearing the AF blue uniform but there are people who cannot/won't, who absolutely loathe the mall cop uniform and who thought the CSU was, at last, a happy medium.

Everyone tell me what good would come from separating CAP from the major entity that has given us the chance to have our history?

It wouldn't.  Since the '90s there is a small-but-very-vocal group of our membership that would like to drop all the "annoying" military affiliations and make us just another ES organisation that happens to fly.  If the day comes that finally happens, I'm gone.

First...I love the shared History we have with the Air Force...I love the affiliation.

Me too.  I wouldn't have joined if that didn't exist.

Second....We are already separated from that "Major Entity" when we went Corporate...Officially we are only the Auxiliary when performing AFAM's.  That was their decision to separate from us.

Which bites worse than Dracula and the shark in "Jaws" combined.

Third, our uniforms should represent our organization and be functional for our purposes.  If we should look like the Air Force because they are our parent service...then we should change when they do...It's the One Team, One Fight concept.  But we Shouldn't look TOO Military...people might think we are the Air Force...Really? Either we are or we aren't. 

I don't get the bit about looking "too military."  We wear modified military officer grade and render customs and courtesies.  If anything, we are "paramilitary" in operation.

And although we have some great supporters in the Air Force some people are getting really mixed signals from them and would rather just change uniforms then dealing with the politics because apparently the Air Force must have a patent on the color blue.

Anyone who knows more than I do about this subject feel free to correct, but I don't think it's necessarily the Air Force.  I think it is a mix of the "corporatist" thinking at NHQ which would have us all in mall cop/polos and overly, needlessly nervous types at NHQ who are so frightened of ticking the AF off, when in most cases we haven't (over uniform matters anyway).  Combine that with the sins of the previous Generalissimo, and they think "EEK!  BLUE!" and reach for the colour grey because some 18-year-old E-1 fresh out of tech school has seen a CAP officer wearing "their" uniform and grumbles about it to his/her first shirt, and it makes the way up to the wing king...and the BoG uses the "cure a headache with a guillotine" mode and axes the CSU, and makes it all but impossible for us to have a distinctive uniform that has any semblance of blue in it.  Airline style blue?  Police style blue?  RAF style blue-grey?  Nope.  Can't have it.  Try it and we'll be back in berry boards, or worse, so quick it'll make our heads swim.

What is often overlooked is that the Air Force vetted and approved the CSU, after making the changes like taking the hard rank off the flight cap (which looked cluttered anyway with the rank and CAP device).

It is incomprehensible to me why the modified CSU with General Courter's directives in force is not being kept.

And as most regular CAPTALK member's know...you know what happens when you infringe on someones else's trademark.

Yes, but in this case, brutally speaking, the only "trademark infringement" risk is the ones the Air Force does have control over...Shade 1550 light blue and Shade 1620 "AF blue."

Someone please have a look at these shades of blue and tell me how a distinctive CAP uniform utilising any of them, or the Irish Air Corps style I posted, is going to tick the AF off if it doesn't use any of their insignia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Force_blue#US_Air_Force_blue

[Earhart1971]

No, but the TPU has been.

Yes, DADT has been repealed and last I heard CAP had a uniform committee.

Everyone tell me what good would come about having a uniform that separates us from USAF?

Everyone tell me what good would come from separating CAP from the major entity that has given us the chance to have our history?

Tell me why you are in an organization that has roots to the military and has a rank structure that runs the same as USAF when you hate it so much.

We already have uniforms that seperate us from the Air Force.

[flyboy53]

This subject is so old and re-hashed so many times that....I look at the issue to change uniforms in the same light as I have seen a major erosion in this organization since we have moved from having an Air Force officer as national commander.

We are supposed to be wearing Air Force uniforms with distinctive CAP insignia. Instead ,those who chose not to conform to standards are more intent with spending money developing uniforms that fit their fancies and forcing them on the field; causing others to spend their money at places like Vanguard in order to make more money for CAP. It's quite the vicious circle anymore and quite representative of the "Come And Pay" attitude of an out-of-control not-for-profit corporation. The more liberal the change, the more we look like members of a cheap marching band; especially with the hodgepodge of Army uniform items or policies like flags on the right sleve of BDUs.

In my years of sevice to the CAP, I have grown increasingly aware of senior-ranking CAP Cadets who view senior members with a great deal of distain because of the lack of standards and discipline the senior members have for themselves. And you don't dare suggest to senior members to adhere to standards...do you? What happened to self-discipline and professionalism?

Without the Air Force uniform, you can bet there will be more of an erosion of support from the Air Force to include the very uniforms provided to the cadets....and with that, do you want to bet how long the cadet program will last.

Without the Air Force, you lose a key aspect of our identity. The next casulty will be purpose. And I, too, will be out the door....because this organization has become another one of those which collect money for the benefit of the headquarters operation and very little for the grass roots.

[Earhart1971]

I have been on the inside of some Air Force conversations. We have 60,000 members, we are the size of an Air Force Major Command in manpower. We have the budget of an Air Force Squadron. 

By design we are kept small. Think of it this way. We could supply all the AFROTC Candidates and all the Air Force Academy Candidates from our Cadet Program, if we were provided the same funding as AFJROTC. We are purposely kept small, because we would show up AFJROTC and the retired Lt Cols serving in high schools all over the country.

I think the Air Force wants to keep us over tasked and underfunded. If we had more of a budget we threaten full time and reserve resources that are way more expensive than CAP and we threaten full time careerists, both Civil Service and Military.

I think we will run out of the "Come and Payers" because the Baby Boomers will be too old in few years. Then what? We will have fewer, way fewer retired or almost retired people to volunteer time to CAP.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I think we will run out of the "Come and Payers" because the Baby Boomers will be too old in few years. Then what? We will have fewer, way fewer retired or almost retired people to volunteer time to CAP.

Are you saying that the AF is trying to "retire" CAP by attrition?

[Earhart1971]

Not at all, the Air Force will not retire CAP. Demographics of pilots will change and we will really have to scramble to have pilots in few years. It will get harder for CAP but we will still be around.

[jeders]

I think we will run out of the "Come and Payers" because the Baby Boomers will be too old in few years. Then what? We will have fewer, way fewer retired or almost retired people to volunteer time to CAP.

Demographics of pilots will change and we will really have to scramble to have pilots in few years. It will get harder for CAP but we will still be around.

I've seen absolutely zero evidence of either of these. We have and continue to get new younger members and pilots.

[JAFO78]

So if someone is joining CAP and buying uniforms which should they get? Would they be safe buying the ABU's? I would hate to be getting BDU's and then 2 yrs or less buying ABU"S.

Just looking for direction.

[Fubar]

So if someone is joining CAP and buying uniforms which should they get? Would they be safe buying the ABU's? I would hate to be getting BDU's and then 2 yrs or less buying ABU"S.

If they want to wear a field uniform now, they have two choices: BDUs and Blue BDUs.

Anyone joining now will likely get a pretty full life out of a set of BDUs since if the Air Force does grant CAP permission in a couple of years, there will likely be a 1-2 year transition period, meaning someone joining today will get AT LEAST three years of wear out of a set of BDUs. That's if everything moves quickly - what are the odds of that?

Buying ABUs now will likely be a waste of money - there doesn't seem to be much of an advantage to buying them now and not being to wear them for a couple more years.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Ditto^

We usually get twice the wear-out time to assimilate new uniforms.  Our cadets are STILL wearing the old 4-button AF blue jacket.  That means we are likely to have 10 years to phase-in the ABU once authorized.  The BDU's you buy now will be pretty ragged by then.  Eventually, you can replace your worn faded BDU with the ABU, but that is likely to be years away.

Also, the UM Blue nametapes don't look as bad on the ABU as they do on the BDU.  Dark gray or dark blue with whitle letters might look better.

The worst thing about the UM blue nametapes is when you put them on a BBDU, they appear faded, even if brand new.

[Hawk200]

Ditto^

We usually get twice the wear-out time to assimilate new uniforms.  Our cadets are STILL wearing the old 4-button AF blue jacket.  That means we are likely to have 10 years to phase-in the ABU once authorized.  The BDU's you buy now will be pretty ragged by then.  Eventually, you can replace your worn faded BDU with the ABU, but that is likely to be years away.

Also, the UM Blue nametapes don't look as bad on the ABU as they do on the BDU.  Dark gray or dark blue with whitle letters might look better.

The worst thing about the UM blue nametapes is when you put them on a BBDU, they appear faded, even if brand new.

I don't like the idea of two different nametape colors. Make it one color for nametapes/accoutrements for both uniforms, and be done with it. Navy blue is probably the best. Would look good with stripes for those who wear them.

There's also the fact that it would look uniquely different, and if anyone can't tell them in "low light", they don't need to be wearing a uniform. I know the UM has historical signifigance, but it's time to move forward. Tradition shouldn't be held up to the point that it looks ridiculous.

[PHall]

So if someone is joining CAP and buying uniforms which should they get? Would they be safe buying the ABU's? I would hate to be getting BDU's and then 2 yrs or less buying ABU"S.

Just looking for direction.

ABU's are not yet authorised. And we don't even have a estimated date when we will be authorised.
There's usually a two to three year transition period when we change uniforms.
So if your new members just have to have them, BDU's should be okay for the next couple of years.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I know I will want to know ASAP when there is an answer, preferably before my cadets know, so that I can get a set and have the patches on and show them what the uniform is to look like before they go out and spend the money on them and accidentally get them wrong. We all know how cadets are, if there is a new uniform to come out, they have to have them like RIGHT NOW!

[abdsp51]

The one thing about ABUS i thought the AF was dumb not to allow was us tucking them in.  The green boots are ick and a waste of money.  Other than that it is functional outside of being hot as heck and them not having an official summer weight sold in stores.

[HGjunkie]

Now that I think about it, even if we were authorized ABU's, I would probably wear Woodland's up untill the last day of the phase-out period. I did the same thing with the recent FLWG patch change (but I haven't even thought about buying the new ones, they look bad IMO).

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I didn't know there was a change, could someone show me the old and the new?