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Safety vests

Started by vmstan, June 08, 2010, 09:06:13 PM

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Spaceman3750

Quote from: High Speed Low Drag on June 11, 2010, 07:28:00 PM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on June 11, 2010, 06:47:41 PM
Sir, 2.5 out of those 4 you listed are actually valid concerns. The one about the cadet jumping the fence is certainly a problem and eye protection in the woods is a good idea unless you are wearing glasses which will help keep things out of your eyes.

And the one about the asthma attack is very important. For example, on a ground team you definitely want your leader to know of your condition and where your EpiPen (assuming you are carrying one with you, which you should if you are asthmatic) is located in the event you do have an attack.

Here is the point -
1.  The theme of the responses are that all accidents are preventable - and they are if you wrap yourself in bubble wrap.  But common sense has to prevail.  A more common sense appraoch would be to say "As part of safety briefing, remind participants to use caution while in the woods.  Pay specific attention to limb strikes, tripping hazards, and insect/snake bites."  Telling everyone to wear goggles is, in my opinion, silly.

There is a lot of ANSI compliant eye protection besides goggles. This is because there are people who must wear protection all day as part of their job, and they don't want to wear goggles either.

lordmonar

The point is......Federal Law requires everyone who "works" on or near federal highways needs to have this vest.

So....in our ground team mission we often "work" on or near federal highways...so we need to have the vests.

In our Cadet Programs mission often we have formations of cadets "working" on or near federal highways so we need the vests.

This is not coddling cadets....it is about avoiding a fine from the DOT for violating the law.

End of message.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Krapenhoeffer

Basically, the moral of the story is that the law exists. The law is the law. CAP regulations and your common sense don't hold up in court, when the Law is the Law. And besides, the RealMilitaryTM has to wear their reflective belts/vests at night no matter what. Why shouldn't this apply to their Auxiliaries?

Frankly, I'd rather look silly and be alive, than look HardKewl and be a windshield decoration.
Proud founding member of the Fellowship of the Vuvuzela.
"And now we just take our Classical Mechanics equations, take the derivative, run it through the uncertainty principal, and take the anti-derivative of the resulting mess. Behold! Quantum Wave Equations! Clear as mud cadets?"
"No... You just broke math law, and who said anything about the anti-derivative? You can obtain the Schrödinger wave equations algebraically!" The funniest part was watching the cadets staring at the epic resulting math fight.

Ned

Quote from: lordmonar on June 11, 2010, 09:24:11 PM
In our Cadet Programs mission often we have formations of cadets "working" on or near federal highways so we need the vests.

This is not coddling cadets....it is about avoiding a fine from the DOT for violating the law.


I agree that this is not about coddling cadets. 

But it might have something to do with interpreting a law in a common sense manner.  12 and 13 year-olds going to a summer leadership camp on a restricted access military base is probably not the same thing as "working in or near a federal highway."  As a practical matter, wings simply do not have mulitple thousands of dollars lieing around to purchase ANSI vests so the cadets can march from the barracks to the chow hall safely.

Which cadets have done safely for over 60 years.

We are probably talking about 8,000 vests at $35 a pop - that's over a quarter of a million dollars that simply doesn't exist without selling a few airplanes.

This is why regulations have a comment period - so we can point out unforeseen problems like this.

Ned Lee
National CP Guy


vmstan

With all due respect, I'm not sure there is much room for CAP regulations to contradict what is in the Federal law... it would be more appropriate to direct the frustration at those who created the law. The alternative is to say that cadets cannot participate in programs that would violate this law, and neuter the programs.

It's an unfunded government mandate. What else is new?
MICHAEL M STANCLIFT, 1st Lt, CAP
Public Affairs Officer, NCR-KS-055, Heartland Squadron

Quote"I wish to compliment NHQ on this extremely well and clearly written regulation.
This publication once and for all should establish the uniform pattern to be followed
throughout Civil Air Patrol."

1949 Uniform and Insignia Committee comment on CAP Reg 35-4

Krapenhoeffer

For the purposes of being on a military installation for an encampment, all one would need is a reflective belt. http://www.brightideasusa.biz/belt.html has them for $7 (Google search, not an official endorsement). I've seen them at AAFES for around the same price. That isn't bad for a price. The only time I've ever been near a highway in CAP is for ES, so I have to have a vest anyway. For aircraft marshaling, the local EAA chapter throws vests at us.

If you know where to look, you can get these for pretty cheap.
Proud founding member of the Fellowship of the Vuvuzela.
"And now we just take our Classical Mechanics equations, take the derivative, run it through the uncertainty principal, and take the anti-derivative of the resulting mess. Behold! Quantum Wave Equations! Clear as mud cadets?"
"No... You just broke math law, and who said anything about the anti-derivative? You can obtain the Schrödinger wave equations algebraically!" The funniest part was watching the cadets staring at the epic resulting math fight.

Thom

Quote from: Ned on June 11, 2010, 11:19:13 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on June 11, 2010, 09:24:11 PM
In our Cadet Programs mission often we have formations of cadets "working" on or near federal highways so we need the vests.

This is not coddling cadets....it is about avoiding a fine from the DOT for violating the law.


I agree that this is not about coddling cadets. 

But it might have something to do with interpreting a law in a common sense manner.  12 and 13 year-olds going to a summer leadership camp on a restricted access military base is probably not the same thing as "working in or near a federal highway."  As a practical matter, wings simply do not have mulitple thousands of dollars lieing around to purchase ANSI vests so the cadets can march from the barracks to the chow hall safely.

Which cadets have done safely for over 60 years.

We are probably talking about 8,000 vests at $35 a pop - that's over a quarter of a million dollars that simply doesn't exist without selling a few airplanes.

This is why regulations have a comment period - so we can point out unforeseen problems like this.

Ned Lee
National CP Guy

Not to make light of the unfunded mandate, but we are talking about a far smaller figure, over a length of time.

Real figure would be (using your total which I have no data about) approximately 8,000 vests at $6-$8 each, not $35.  Heck, $35 will buy you a cadillac vest with every feature possible.

A link to a cheap, legal, compliant vest that is $6 and change:
http://www.safetyvests.com/ansi/ansi-class-2/occunomix-class-2-value-mesh-vest-orange-eco-gc-orange/

And, we get to spread out the replacement expense over 2 years.

In the final analysis, it isn't a pleasant expenditure, but it has to be done, so let's figure out how to do it.

Perhaps a proposal to Wal-Mart or someone with similar disposable Charity Donation money to be given to help us protect our non-reflective cadets?

Thom

wuzafuzz

Don't forget the new ground team / UDF helmet with flashing lights.   >:D

"You can't stop the signal, Mal."

davidsinn

Quote from: Thom on June 12, 2010, 02:55:39 AM
Quote from: Ned on June 11, 2010, 11:19:13 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on June 11, 2010, 09:24:11 PM
In our Cadet Programs mission often we have formations of cadets "working" on or near federal highways so we need the vests.

This is not coddling cadets....it is about avoiding a fine from the DOT for violating the law.


I agree that this is not about coddling cadets. 

But it might have something to do with interpreting a law in a common sense manner.  12 and 13 year-olds going to a summer leadership camp on a restricted access military base is probably not the same thing as "working in or near a federal highway."  As a practical matter, wings simply do not have mulitple thousands of dollars lieing around to purchase ANSI vests so the cadets can march from the barracks to the chow hall safely.

Which cadets have done safely for over 60 years.

We are probably talking about 8,000 vests at $35 a pop - that's over a quarter of a million dollars that simply doesn't exist without selling a few airplanes.

This is why regulations have a comment period - so we can point out unforeseen problems like this.

Ned Lee
National CP Guy

Not to make light of the unfunded mandate, but we are talking about a far smaller figure, over a length of time.

Real figure would be (using your total which I have no data about) approximately 8,000 vests at $6-$8 each, not $35.  Heck, $35 will buy you a cadillac vest with every feature possible.

A link to a cheap, legal, compliant vest that is $6 and change:
http://www.safetyvests.com/ansi/ansi-class-2/occunomix-class-2-value-mesh-vest-orange-eco-gc-orange/

And, we get to spread out the replacement expense over 2 years.

In the final analysis, it isn't a pleasant expenditure, but it has to be done, so let's figure out how to do it.

Perhaps a proposal to Wal-Mart or someone with similar disposable Charity Donation money to be given to help us protect our non-reflective cadets?

Thom

Wouldn't it be cheaper to just have the cadets at the corners of the formation, and any staff walking with but not int he formation to be in vests? Similar concept to mounting extremity lights on farm equipment.
Former CAP Captain
David Sinn

JC004

Quote from: wuzafuzz on June 12, 2010, 02:57:40 AM
Don't forget the new ground team / UDF helmet with flashing lights.   >:D


DUDE.  Don't give them ideas.  This is going to end up as a National Board agenda item.  Not only that, but it will have a Triangle Thingy on it, maybe even as a spike!

a2capt


JC004


SarDragon

Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Slim

Quote from: SarDragon on June 12, 2010, 08:46:18 AM
That's COLD!

Yet, I can't seem to stop laughing at it.....


Slim

wuzafuzz

#54
ROFL  :clap: :clap: :clap:

JC004 may be right!  In a secret CAP Photoshop bunker the The Mad Triangle Thingy SWAT Team is wringing their hands and laughing maniacally at the thought of new places to place their beloved logo.  Plus a spike on the helmet could be an elevated feed antenna for a portable radio.

The ANSI vests are starting to look a lot better...


"You can't stop the signal, Mal."

davidsinn

Former CAP Captain
David Sinn

JC004

#56
Quote from: wuzafuzz on June 12, 2010, 02:31:07 PM
ROFL  :clap: :clap: :clap:

JC004 may be right!  In a secret CAP Photoshop bunker the The Mad Triangle Thingy SWAT Team is wringing their hands and laughing maniacally at the thought of new places to place their beloved logo.  Plus a spike on the helmet could be an elevated feed antenna for a portable radio.

The ANSI vests are starting to look a lot better...

So the hard hat will have the Triangle Thingy, the ANSI vest will have the Corporate Seal, the van they're driving will have the Command Patch (with "U.S"), and the second team's van with have the Command patch without "U.S."  One van will say "www.cap.gov" and they other will say "www.gocivilairpatrol.com."  Then, some member will crash the party because they'll be wearing an older vest with the Emblem and the temporary "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" tapes.  I hope one of the members doesn't take off their BDU coat because the squadron shirt has the Air Force Symbol!  Of course the team members will be wearing polo combination, BDUs, and blueberry suits...

Hmm...I think we have an identity crisis.

BTCS1*

Quote from: JC004 on June 12, 2010, 06:53:56 PM
Quote from: wuzafuzz on June 12, 2010, 02:31:07 PM
ROFL  :clap: :clap: :clap:

JC004 may be right!  In a secret CAP Photoshop bunker the The Mad Triangle Thingy SWAT Team is wringing their hands and laughing maniacally at the thought of new places to place their beloved logo.  Plus a spike on the helmet could be an elevated feed antenna for a portable radio.

The ANSI vests are starting to look a lot better...

So the hard hat will have the Triangle Thingy, the ANSI vest will have the Corporate Seal, the van they're driving will have the Command Patch (with "U.S"), and the second team's van with have the Command patch without "U.S."  One van will say "www.cap.gov" and they other will say "www.gocivilairpatrol.com."  Then, some member will crash the party because they'll be wearing an older vest with the Emblem and the temporary "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" tapes.  I hope one of the members doesn't take off their BDU coat because the squadron shirt has the Air Force Symbol!  Of course the team members will be wearing polo combination, BDUs, and blueberry suits...

Hmm...I think we have an identity crisis.
+1
C/2d Lt. B. Garelick, CAP

JC004

Quote from: BTCS1* on June 13, 2010, 04:04:53 PM
Quote from: JC004 on June 12, 2010, 06:53:56 PM
Quote from: wuzafuzz on June 12, 2010, 02:31:07 PM
ROFL  :clap: :clap: :clap:

JC004 may be right!  In a secret CAP Photoshop bunker the The Mad Triangle Thingy SWAT Team is wringing their hands and laughing maniacally at the thought of new places to place their beloved logo.  Plus a spike on the helmet could be an elevated feed antenna for a portable radio.

The ANSI vests are starting to look a lot better...

So the hard hat will have the Triangle Thingy, the ANSI vest will have the Corporate Seal, the van they're driving will have the Command Patch (with "U.S"), and the second team's van with have the Command patch without "U.S."  One van will say "www.cap.gov" and they other will say "www.gocivilairpatrol.com."  Then, some member will crash the party because they'll be wearing an older vest with the Emblem and the temporary "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" tapes.  I hope one of the members doesn't take off their BDU coat because the squadron shirt has the Air Force Symbol!  Of course the team members will be wearing polo combination, BDUs, and blueberry suits...

Hmm...I think we have an identity crisis.
+1

How come a C/MSgt gets this and it seems like Colonels do not?  Sometimes I think we should have a cadet activity...CAP Leaders for a Week.  Let the cadets run the organization for a week and see what they do.   :)  I bet they'd kick butt.

Cadets were talking about our identity long before the Triangle Thingy topic - quite often around here (whether they applied the words "identity," "brand," etc. to it or not). 

I remember at one activity where we were all looking at the then-new 39-1.   The cadets were all talking about how dumb it was to have a utility suit in dark blue and a flight suit in ultramarine.  Same pattern, different colors.  Of course, they later changed this at our expense.  I know some SMs who were NOT TOO HAPPY about the cost they got stuck with on this. 

BTCS1*

That would be great, because frankly, while CAC is meant to provide us with the opportunity to help with the seniors command decisions and whatnot, it is actually quite ineffective from what I have seen in my year a a rep. My first order of business: KILL THE TRIANGLE-THINGY!!!!
C/2d Lt. B. Garelick, CAP