Saluting (by rank or grade)

[16bresch]

Hello,

I am wondering if you salute by rank or grade? Example: my squadron commander is a second lieutenant and the deputy commander is a major, they are standing together, if I walk up to them who do I salute?

[Flying Pig]

  You salute according to rank, not duty assignment.

[lordmonar]

You salute the grade.

Your squadron commander is a Capt you are a Major...the commander salutes you.

Your squadron commander is a Lt and is standing next to the Lt Col Admin Officer....you salute the senior person present (the Lt col).

[Storm Chaser]

The comments above are correct. There are exceptions when reporting, in certain ceremonies/formations and when receiving an award, recognition or promotion. In those cases you would salute the presenter (usually the commander) even if you have a higher grade and/or would salute the officer you're reporting to (example, the presiding officer on a promotion board) regardless of your grade and/or that of others there.

[capmaj]

^^^  Cite, please?

[MacGruff]

The comments above are correct. There are exceptions when reporting, in certain ceremonies/formations and when receiving an award, recognition or promotion. In those cases you would salute the presenter (usually the commander) even if you have a higher grade and/or would salute the officer you're reporting to (example, the presiding officer on a promotion board) regardless of your grade and/or that of others there.

This is interesting to me and I wonder if you could clarify something I observed.

At a recent Promotion Board, there were two Senior Members who sat in on it. One was a Major, the other a 2nd Lieutenant. The senior cadet holding the board was the First Sergeant of the Squadron accompanied by another cadet who was a Sergeant Major. One of the cadets who came in for review was a C/2LT - who promptly saluted the First Sergeant on both entering and leaving.

During my military service you never saw an officer salute an enlisted grade. I asked about why he did not salute the Major present? I was told that since the First Sergeant was in charge of the board he was the Officer In Charge and therefore the honor of the salute was directed at him. It struck me as very odd. Now the same circumstance is described above. Is that correct?

[Storm Chaser]

^^^  Cite, please?

AFMAN 36-2203 covers several formations (including inspections and reports), where salutes are given based on positions, not grade. That same manual addresses saluting indoors when reporting. Again, you report based on position (e.g. to the commander), not grade. As for the rest, I'll let you do your own homework.

One thing to note. In most Armed Forces and Uniformed Services, duty positions are usually assigned based on grade or rank. In that case, customs and courtesies followed fit the mold of a lower ranking person saluting a higher ranking person (e.g. the commander always has a higher or similar grade than those being commanded). That's not the case in CAP, which makes customs and courtesies awkward (maybe not the word I'm looking for) at times. For example, in the Air Force my squadron commander is a Lt Col. As a Maj, it's obvious that I will be saluting him when presented with an award. Any awards he receives will be presented by his commander, a Col. In CAP, you have Capts commanding and possibly presenting awards to Majs and Lt Cols. Customs and courtesies still dictate that the recipient salute the commander presenting the award.

[Storm Chaser]

The comments above are correct. There are exceptions when reporting, in certain ceremonies/formations and when receiving an award, recognition or promotion. In those cases you would salute the presenter (usually the commander) even if you have a higher grade and/or would salute the officer you're reporting to (example, the presiding officer on a promotion board) regardless of your grade and/or that of others there.

This is interesting to me and I wonder if you could clarify something I observed.

At a recent Promotion Board, there were two Senior Members who sat in on it. One was a Major, the other a 2nd Lieutenant. The senior cadet holding the board was the First Sergeant of the Squadron accompanied by another cadet who was a Sergeant Major. One of the cadets who came in for review was a C/2LT - who promptly saluted the First Sergeant on both entering and leaving.

During my military service you never saw an officer salute an enlisted grade. I asked about why he did not salute the Major present? I was told that since the First Sergeant was in charge of the board he was the Officer In Charge and therefore the honor of the salute was directed at him. It struck me as very odd. Now the same circumstance is described above. Is that correct?

That was incorrect. The presiding officer should've been one of the senior members, not the cadet first sergeant, especially in a promotion board in which the cadet being promoted is a cadet officer. That said, I've seen units where the cadet commander is a C/CMSgt and a recently promoted C/2d Lt is subordinate in position to this enlisted cadet commander. CAP publications don't do a good job at addressing these, but eServices does through the new cadet assignment module. For example, cadet NCOs cannot be assigned in eServices to cadet officer positions. Unfortunately, eServices is not a regulation and many units still do.

Even AFMAN 36-2203 and its corresponding CAP drill guide have flight sergeants reporting to the first sergeant. The first sergeant then reports to the squadron (cadet) commander, and after the first sergeant is posted, then the flight commanders (who are presumed to be officers) take their positions in front of their flights.

I supposed if there was a legitimate reason for a cadet officer to report to a cadet NCO, it could be appropriate (or at least acceptable) to salute the NCO (can't cite a regulation for that as I don't believe there's any), but I don't think the example provided fits that situation. Frankly, the best way to avoid this is to have cadet officers filling officer positions and cadet NCOs filling NCO positions. Unfortunately, that's not always possible because of manning and/or the speed in which cadets can promote, many times outranking each other in a matter of months.

(edited for grammar)

[capmaj]

That's interesting, but we are not directly governed by any AFMAN. Our Customs and Courtisies are defined withing our own pubs. Specifically, CAPP 151.

A direct quote from CAPP 151 states;

" For example, in CAP, a captain may command a squadron that includes majors and colonels as its members. An aircraft may be commanded by a captain, and crewed by two majors. Or perhaps a cadet NCO is leading a drill team that includes her cadet commander, a cadet major. Situations like these are common in CAP.

"Still, the lower ranking officer should initiate the salute."

[Brad]

Apples and oranges, but CAP could take a lesson from JROTC with this. With my unit at least, the highest you could advance without a staff position was Cadet Chief Petty Officer (C/MSgt equivalent). Anything higher and you had to hold some form of a staff position, be it on the command side or support side, e.g. platoon commander, supply officer, etc.

This eliminated the problem of a non-staff cadet officer reporting to a staff cadet NCO. The only time there was still a disparity of rank was with the extracurricular teams such as drill team, etc, as that was simply a skill appointment. Example, I was the Battalion XO, C/LCDR (C/Maj equivalent) and I still deferred command at drill practice to one of my Company XOs, a C/LT (C/Capt equivalent), who was the drill team commander as well.

He still saluted me though.

[Storm Chaser]

That's interesting, but we are not directly governed by any AFMAN. Our Customs and Courtisies are defined withing our own pubs. Specifically, CAPP 151.

You're mostly correct about Air Force Instructions and Manuals. CAP used to have a comprehensive manual on drill and ceremonies, but not anymore. While CAP has a Drill Guide, AFMAN 36-2203 governs most drill and ceremonies within CAP, hence my example and reference provided.

Either way, CAP's customs and courtesies did not develop in a vacuum; they developed from the Air Force's customs and courtesies, especially when wearing the Air Force-style uniform. Cheers!

[SARDOC]

That's interesting, but we are not directly governed by any AFMAN. Our Customs and Courtisies are defined withing our own pubs. Specifically, CAPP 151.

A direct quote from CAPP 151 states;

" For example, in CAP, a captain may command a squadron that includes majors and colonels as its members. An aircraft may be commanded by a captain, and crewed by two majors. Or perhaps a cadet NCO is leading a drill team that includes her cadet commander, a cadet major. Situations like these are common in CAP.

"Still, the lower ranking officer should initiate the salute."

The issue is really that Pamphlets don't govern anything.  They are recommended best practices.  I would still recommend complying with the CAPP 151, but there is no requirement to do so.

[Storm Chaser]

Agree. No only that, you need to read it in context. That text refers to saluting outdoors, under normal circumstances. It does not address saluting when reporting in a formation or in an office or when an award is being presented.

[lordmonar]

That's interesting, but we are not directly governed by any AFMAN. Our Customs and Courtisies are defined withing our own pubs. Specifically, CAPP 151.

A direct quote from CAPP 151 states;

" For example, in CAP, a captain may command a squadron that includes majors and colonels as its members. An aircraft may be commanded by a captain, and crewed by two majors. Or perhaps a cadet NCO is leading a drill team that includes her cadet commander, a cadet major. Situations like these are common in CAP.

"Still, the lower ranking officer should initiate the salute."

The issue is really that Pamphlets don't govern anything.  They are recommended best practices.  I would still recommend complying with the CAPP 151, but there is no requirement to do so.

That's not quite true......It is hierarchy sort of thing.....in the absence of any regulation or pamphlet then you do what you want.  If there is no reg but there is a pamphlet...do what the pamphlet says.  If there is a reg and a pamphlet and the reg says to do something different....follow the regulation.

AND of course there is always Custom.......as in unwritten rules we follow....such as saluting Medal of Honor winners.

Bottom line....you salute the grade not the rank (except in some special situations, formations, accepting awards, formal reporting to the command in his office, accepting awards, etc.)

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

I'm still trying to digest "cadet who was a Sergeant Major".

But it could be turkey...

[a2capt]

I was wondering when someone was going to ask about that.
Discretionary award, typo, what?

[MacGruff]

I was wondering when someone was going to ask about that.
Discretionary award, typo, what?

I'll blame the turkey.  Yeah! That's it!!!




C/Master Sergeant.



And the reason why the C/First Sergeant was in charge instead of a cadet officer is because the only remaining cadet officer was the one getting reviewed....

[flyboy53]

By grade or rank?  Wrong concept. One means time in grade or pay grade.

Actually, the key word here is "squadron commander." Any CAP or military regulation on protocol will certainly say that the junior officer salutes first if passing on a street, but the key word here is "squadron commander" and you approached him or her first. Remember that in a reporting situation you would salute first if you were reporting to the squadron commander regardless of your rank because you recognize the command title given to the individual by higher authority. Although it is correct that the junior officer salutes first, you are approaching and you must also recognize that junior individual is the appointed commander of your unit -- and is therefore accorded the appropriate respect given that position of authority or title.

Certainly, we're not in the Navy, but the traditions of the Navy are very similar to your question -- and recognized by all other services. In that situation, the captain of a ship my not be the senior ranking officer aboard the ship. He may be a lieutenant or lieutenant commander, but because he has been formally appointed the captain of the ship by a higher commissioning authority, he's addressed as captain and is in command -- which means he is accorded the appropriate respect of the title and you salute him first.

Whether this opens an apples and oranges debate or we sit in front of our computers dissecting each technicality, my advice to you is to always error on the side of caution and render the salute regardless. Let the commander accept or defer the salute as appropriate. You can't go wrong.

[MIKE]

I wish CAP wouldn't change the meaning of rank and grade to serve it's own purposes.  Why call it rank when you really mean seniority, and what everybody else refers to as rank in common usage, CAP calls grade.

[SARDOC]

That's interesting, but we are not directly governed by any AFMAN. Our Customs and Courtisies are defined withing our own pubs. Specifically, CAPP 151.

A direct quote from CAPP 151 states;

" For example, in CAP, a captain may command a squadron that includes majors and colonels as its members. An aircraft may be commanded by a captain, and crewed by two majors. Or perhaps a cadet NCO is leading a drill team that includes her cadet commander, a cadet major. Situations like these are common in CAP.

"Still, the lower ranking officer should initiate the salute."

The issue is really that Pamphlets don't govern anything.  They are recommended best practices.  I would still recommend complying with the CAPP 151, but there is no requirement to do so.

That's not quite true......It is hierarchy sort of thing.....in the absence of any regulation or pamphlet then you do what you want.  If there is no reg but there is a pamphlet...do what the pamphlet says.  If there is a reg and a pamphlet and the reg says to do something different....follow the regulation.

AND of course there is always Custom.......as in unwritten rules we follow....such as saluting Medal of Honor winners.

Bottom line....you salute the grade not the rank (except in some special situations, formations, accepting awards, formal reporting to the command in his office, accepting awards, etc.)

We'll have to agree to disagree but the anything that is provided in a pamphlet falls under

1.i. "Pamphlets" are nondirective, informative, "how-to" type publications that may include suggested methods and techniques for implementing CAP policies.

There are pamphlets that are adopted by reference by civil air patrol regulations making them required...this is not one of those pamphlets.

[lordmonar]

Nothing has changed.....grade is the insignia that you wear....it is tied on AD with your pay grade......So my pay grade is E-7 my grade is MSgt.

Ranks is where you figure out if you a superior or a subordinate.

On AD Rank goes in this order.  Grade, Time in Grade, Time in Service, and Date of Birth (believe it or not).

So a Captain always out RANKS a Lt.
If you got to LT....the guy who put it on first is senior.
If they both put it on the same day...the guy who joined the service first is senior.
If they both joined the same day...the guy who is older is senior.

CAP follows the same traditions.....is there regulation for this?  No.....but there you go.

And Flyboy pointed out.....a salute is always appropriate especially toward your commander.

[capmaj]

I recall a few years ago, when I was questioning cadets as to why they called the room to attention on a meeting night when the squadron commander walked in ( He was a Captain, while there were two Lt Col's and a Major sitting at the table).........   "That's what we were told we have to do". So I then went to the extreme and asked them "What if MGen Courtier were sitting here and the unit commander walked in? Would you still call the room to attention?

They still said that they would.   Confusion anyone??

[Storm Chaser]

I recall a few years ago, when I was questioning cadets as to why they called the room to attention on a meeting night when the squadron commander walked in ( He was a Captain, while there were two Lt Col's and a Major sitting at the table).........   "That's what we were told we have to do". So I then went to the extreme and asked them "What if MGen Courtier were sitting here and the unit commander walked in? Would you still call the room to attention?

They still said that they would.   Confusion anyone??

First of all, you don't have to call the room to attention EVERYTIME the commander or other officers in the unit enter the class room as it would disrupt the class of meeting going on. Second, if there is a higher ranking officer in the room, you don't call it to attention even for the commander. An exception could be a military ceremony or commander's call.

In the Air Force, rooms/buildings are called to attention depending on the rank/grade and position. You wouldn't call the building where the commander works to attention everytime. You would call the room/building to attention if the group or wing commander comes in. If you work in the group or wing commander's office/building, the same applies.

[capmaj]

^^^  I mostly agree.

I was citing the example as one to show the confusion that surrounds what some of our cadets are being taught. I spent time in both the USAF and US Army and am often amused about how many different interpretations CAP members put on what they believe are the 'regulations' surrounding a practice or a protocol.

Most of this is to be expected in a volunteer organization. Unless there is a situation where a long period of standardized training is taught to new members, followed by the practice of enforcing that training nationwide, there will never be 'one' correct way to do things in CAP. An SUI every 27 or so months is not going to go very far in enforcing a true standardization with-in CAP.

Anyway..............

[ol'fido]

Beyond that, the SUI does not measure or inspect such things.

[PHall]

In the Air Force at least, we didn't call the room to attention every time the Commander entered the room.
We did stand if we were seated if we weren't doing something work related. But everybody in the room did acknowledge their presence.
Only times the room was called to attention was when they entered the auditorium during Commander's Call.

[lordmonar]

I recall a few years ago, when I was questioning cadets as to why they called the room to attention on a meeting night when the squadron commander walked in ( He was a Captain, while there were two Lt Col's and a Major sitting at the table).........   "That's what we were told we have to do". So I then went to the extreme and asked them "What if MGen Courtier were sitting here and the unit commander walked in? Would you still call the room to attention?

They still said that they would.   Confusion anyone??

Nope.....cadets falling back on to their basic instructions when confronted with a strange situation.   Happens all the time. 

It is one of the quirks of CAP that we run into this situation more often then in the military.

The question I would ask you of your scenario......if Gen Courtier was at my squadron.....why the hell was the squadron commander not glued to her side! 

[Luis R. Ramos]

What about saluting a US Flag in a flagpole?

My first squadron commander when I re-joined in New York in Ramapo, the regulations stated to salute uncased flags. So he would salute as he walked by every flagpole.

If there would be a school followed by a post office followed by an office building he would expect us to salute all three. Back then the expectation was to come to attention and salute when playing the US Anthem or To The Colors. Not to salute when the flag was up...

Flyer

[a2capt]

What about saluting a US Flag in a flagpole?

If it's .. in the pole, you can't see it. 

Anyhow, there is taking things to the extreme. If you ever hear of someone locking up traffic to salute flags.. you know where your guy went.

[lordmonar]

What about saluting a US Flag in a flagpole?

My first squadron commander when I re-joined in New York in Ramapo, the regulations stated to salute uncased flags. So he would salute as he walked by every flagpole.

If there would be a school followed by a post office followed by an office building he would expect us to salute all three. Back then the expectation was to come to attention and salute when playing the US Anthem or To The Colors. Not to salute when the flag was up...

Flyer

That's really nice example of only reading part of the reg.   Because it also specifically states that you don't salute the flag on the pole except during reveille and retreat.

[Luis R. Ramos]

This was back in the 1990's. The regs did not clarify about reveille or retreat back then...

Anyway I will never see that guy again...

I moved to a different Group, then I heard about two years after that he divorced his wife, left his kids, and went to a different Group. A year after that I heard he dented the wing of that Group's plane and left without paying!

Flyer

[a2capt]

A year after that I heard he dented the wing of that Group's plane and left without paying!

Probably panicked .. when he saw the flag reflection in the side window.

Never say never.

[DMinick]

So a question on saluting the flag. If the flag is in a parade, such as the veterns day parade where there are many of them, do you salute each one as it passes or only the first one? I have seen both occur. Where is the regs on that? I remember seeing it before but not sure where!

[a2capt]

The Flag Code says "the first flag", though I know when we've been far back in the lineup, I've still seen salutes as we've passed, with our Color Guard leading.

[Brad]

What about saluting a US Flag in a flagpole?

My first squadron commander when I re-joined in New York in Ramapo, the regulations stated to salute uncased flags. So he would salute as he walked by every flagpole.

If there would be a school followed by a post office followed by an office building he would expect us to salute all three. Back then the expectation was to come to attention and salute when playing the US Anthem or To The Colors. Not to salute when the flag was up...

Flyer

Hah! I heard one of my cadets try to get on one of his subordinates about that for walking by a flagpole without a flag on it/being raised/lowered/whatever without saluting it. That drew quite the eyebrow raise from me, and after a brief discussion apparently he was misinterpreting the C&C with regards to saluting the flag passing by in a parade or other ceremony as to it being the same as passing by an officer, but the "officer" being the bare flagpole. Yea idk either. Despite my best efforts to the contrary I couldn't convince him that frankly he was dead wrong. You salute the flag when it comes up, when it comes down, when the National Anthem or To The Colors is played, and when it passes near during a parade or such, provided it is uncased, e.g. not in that big leather CASE that comes with the pole kit. You don't salute a bare flagpole, period.

[Private Investigator]

After 72 years you will think we got this figured out?

BTW, Happy Birthday CAP   :clap:

[ol'fido]

After 72 years you will think we got this figured out?

BTW, Happy Birthday CAP   :clap:

I salute you, sir! Or wait a minute, do you salute me? I'm confused here.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I was always taught "you salute the rank/grade, not necessarily the person wearing it."

[SarDragon]

I was always taught "you salute the rank/grade, not necessarily the person wearing it."

That's an entirely different barrel of worms. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I was always taught "you salute the rank/grade, not necessarily the person wearing it."

That's an entirely different barrel of worms. 

A former CC of mine, who became a wing commander and then a region PD Officer, who spent a lot of time at Maxwell, said that with all the foreign military going to various schools at Max, and not knowing their ranks, he would wear his arm out saluting.

He said, "I am up on the British and Commonwealth ranks and know those fairly well, but they have Germans, French, Belgians, Japanese and what not taking courses there...I might be saluting Corporals, but at least I'm covering myself!"

[JeffDG]

I was always taught "you salute the rank/grade, not necessarily the person wearing it."

That's an entirely different barrel of worms. 

A former CC of mine, who became a wing commander and then a region PD Officer, who spent a lot of time at Maxwell, said that with all the foreign military going to various schools at Max, and not knowing their ranks, he would wear his arm out saluting.

He said, "I am up on the British and Commonwealth ranks and know those fairly well, but they have Germans, French, Belgians, Japanese and what not taking courses there...I might be saluting Corporals, but at least I'm covering myself!"

Canadians are easy...pretty much the same as the US Navy with the full/half stripes.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Canadians are easy...pretty much the same as the US Navy with the full/half stripes.

Except that the Canadian Army is going back to the pre-1968 crowns and pips.




The (renamed) RCN has its Executive Curl back.



Barring (ouch) a return to the RAF/RAAF/RNZAF/Indian AF blue-black rings, the RCAF will be the only holdover from the 1968 insignia.

[Shuman 14]

I was always taught "you salute the rank/grade, not necessarily the person wearing it."

That's an entirely different barrel of worms. 

A former CC of mine, who became a wing commander and then a region PD Officer, who spent a lot of time at Maxwell, said that with all the foreign military going to various schools at Max, and not knowing their ranks, he would wear his arm out saluting.

He said, "I am up on the British and Commonwealth ranks and know those fairly well, but they have Germans, French, Belgians, Japanese and what not taking courses there...I might be saluting Corporals, but at least I'm covering myself!"

When we had foreign students at Fort Leonard Wood we'd have them wear a fob off their left pocket with the equivalent non-subdued US rank attached to it.

It helped... a lot.

[Private Investigator]

Before I leave home my wife salutes me and calls me "Colonel" so that preempts me from trolling for salutes. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Sometimes when I am displeased about something, my dear wife, who outranks me in all ways, will look at me and say "don't give me that look, Captain."

[Shotgun]

I just have to say this topic is somewhat timely and I've changed my opinion and practice on the matter.

I was once a person who thought it would be more appropriate to salute the CC of a unit over an officer with a higher grade.

In fact, when I transferred into a new unit as a Major, it felt awkward to walk up the Squadron CC  (a Captain) and have hm salute me before I could salute him.

But after reviewing this thread it does make a lot of sense and has both clarified and changed my take on the topic.

Wow!  I guess that means you *can* teach an old dog new tricks!

[ColonelJack]

Before I leave home my wife salutes me and calls me "Colonel" so that preempts me from trolling for salutes. 

Which would be really strange if you were just a major.   

Jack

[Private Investigator]

Before I leave home my wife salutes me and calls me "Colonel" so that preempts me from trolling for salutes. 

Which would be really strange if you were just a major.   

Jack

Oo