Naval Sea Cadets

[Gunner C]

From what I have  been able to gather, the SEAL and EOD programs are more PT academies, allowing the cadets to go through the INDOC vs. actually teaching anything related to being a SEAL or EOD.  Also, an overall orientation to Navy EOD or Spec War as a possible career field.

I can't see teenage cadets making night swims, dragging along training charges in surf, trying to attach them a a pier.  Yeah, I'm thinking it's a lot of PT, movies, and  . . . well, I'm not sure what else they could do.  I don't think they'd let the cadets go to SEAL beach parties. 

[winterg]

So why doesn't one of us enterprising individuals contact our local NSCC unit and ask what some of these pretty neat cadet opportunities actually entails?

Why does that sound like I'm volunteering?

I guess I'll send an email out to the Cruiser Milwaukee Division.

[Flying Pig]

Im already on it here in CA.  Ill keep you posted.  You work it out in your neck of the woods and we'll see what we come up with.

[hatentx]

Sent the Email as well.  I didnt know they were right here on the Base I work on a little creepy

[Hawk200]

If they can take airman training we should be able to do the seal training.

It's not Air Force training, the Navy has "airmen". Sailors in aviation related fields. They're not getting Air Force stuff, so it doesn't justify CAP cadets getting Seal training.

I'm no expert on what specifically constitutes an Airman in the Navy, other than having gone through part of weather school with Navy personnel. They were called airmen. Could one of our present or fomer sailors elaborate?

Overall, I'd think some joint efforts with cadets (cadet programs like our own, not academy type environments) from other branches would be ideal. The military in general wants joint working environments, why not start early? Would make anyone going into any branch a little more rounded. Nobody would be an expert on other branches, but it would be a good start.

[BGNightfall]

Well, since you asked...

Navy (and Coast Guard) Airmen are sailors E1 through E3 who work in aviation related fields.  In the context of the NSCC schools, "Seamanship Training" would refer to things like how to get a ship underway, and how to make it fast to the pier.  Basically an orientation to life as a Navy deck Seaman.  "Airman Training" would likely refer to flight deck procedures and life as a Navy unrated Airman. 

In terms of uniform differences, a Navy (and Coast Guard)Airman wears green stripes on all of their uniforms.  Seamen wear white on blue uniforms, blue on white uniforms.   

[SarDragon]

To further elaborate -

The above info on "Airman" is essentially correct. Anyone training in one of the twelve aviation general ratings, at the E-1 thru E-3 rank level, is referred to, respectively, as Airman Recruit, Airman Apprentice, and Airman. In the NSCC context, "Airman Training" would refers to training related to any of those twelve ratings.

The green stripes are worn only at the E-1 thru E-3 level. Red is worn by engineering ratings, and blue is worn by construction (CB) ratings.

More here.

[Bobble]

Heck, I might look into joining just because of the following reg excerpt:

Section 3: Discipline
0930 - General
0930.1 Discipline in NSCC shall be directed toward strengthening the character of each cadet through development of self-control and self-discipline.
0930.3 Disciplinary actions should be taken in steps to maintain good order and discipline.
a. Personal counseling to provide enlightenment as to what is expected in a regimented, disciplined, structured environment. In this regard, and counseling sessions requires a minimum of two adults present; three is recommended. If a female is receiving the counseling, one female adult must be present.
b. Extra Military Instruction (EMI) can include the following:
·   Additional marching not to exceed 1 hour a day to be performed outside normal training periods. Can be imposed individually or as a unit/group.
·   Curtailment of liberty or other free time and assignment of additional watches.
·   Assignment of additional work details, which can include cleaning details. Such work should not be performed after 2200 or before 0600.
·   Additional study, correspondence courses, Blue Jackets Manual, NSCC Regulations, etc.

Ooooohh, wait a minute, we would consider some of that to be 'hazing', wouldn't we?

[JayT]

Heck, I might look into joining just because of the following reg excerpt:

Section 3: Discipline
0930 - General
0930.1 Discipline in NSCC shall be directed toward strengthening the character of each cadet through development of self-control and self-discipline.
0930.3 Disciplinary actions should be taken in steps to maintain good order and discipline.
a. Personal counseling to provide enlightenment as to what is expected in a regimented, disciplined, structured environment. In this regard, and counseling sessions requires a minimum of two adults present; three is recommended. If a female is receiving the counseling, one female adult must be present.
b. Extra Military Instruction (EMI) can include the following:
·   Additional marching not to exceed 1 hour a day to be performed outside normal training periods. Can be imposed individually or as a unit/group.
·   Curtailment of liberty or other free time and assignment of additional watches.
·   Assignment of additional work details, which can include cleaning details. Such work should not be performed after 2200 or before 0600.
·   Additional study, correspondence courses, Blue Jackets Manual, NSCC Regulations, etc.

Ooooohh, wait a minute, we would consider some of that to be 'hazing', wouldn't we?

Nope. Would I do it at CAP? Nope.

[Bobble]

JThemann, Salty & Seasoned Contributor -

I'm curious as to how you have come to the conclusion that the first three bulleted items of 0930.3.b. would not meet the CAP definition of hazing as per CAPR 52-10:

"c. Hazing. Hazing is defined as any conduct whereby someone causes another to suffer or to be exposed to any activity that is cruel, abusive, humiliating, oppressive, demeaning, or harmful. Actual or implied consent to acts of hazing does not eliminate the culpability of the perpetrator. Examples of hazing include using exercise as punishment or assigning remedial training that does not fit the deficiency (such as making a cadet run laps for having poorly shined shoes). Hazing, as defined in this policy, is considered a form of physical abuse and the reporting procedures for physical abuse must be followed."

Please note the terms 'humiliating', 'oppressive', and 'demeaning'.  Somehow, I have a hard time believing that any CAP cadet who receives punishment in the form of a field day assignment (e.g., 'cleaning details') or marching alone for ~59 minutes after an activity ends would:

1) Not think all three terms are fitting, and

2) Find that the assignment has no remedial training value.

But maybe that's just me.  Perhaps you could provide further information that would change my point of view.

[JayT]

Simple. One is a CAP defination, the other is a NSCC defination.

Different organization, different rules, different punishment.

As I said, I wouldn't do it at CAP, nore would I condone it.

[Flying Pig]

Before we all start insulting each other.  I had one reason for looking into the Sea Cadets and wanting to see about joint training.  My son.  Im not looking for an argument about which program is better.  He is 11 years old and is dying to get into CAP.  In addition, he is a very avid swimmer and has a wall full of ribbons and medals from swimming.  The kid loves anything to do with water.  He is also looking forward to me finishing my Glider CFI so I can start teaching him to fly.
I thought if I could get CAP or the Sea Cadets to allow him to attend some of the Naval training and be in CAP he would literally have the best of both worlds.  He would love to do the SEAL Challenge or the SCUBA training just to name a Not to mention the other cadets who would attend also.  This idea sounds like it would be a great National Special Activity.  Navy EOD Orientation!

[Eclipse]

Heck, I might look into joining just because of the following reg excerpt:

Section 3: Discipline
0930 - General
0930.1 Discipline in NSCC shall be directed toward strengthening the character of each cadet through development of self-control and self-discipline.
0930.3 Disciplinary actions should be taken in steps to maintain good order and discipline.
a. Personal counseling to provide enlightenment as to what is expected in a regimented, disciplined, structured environment. In this regard, and counseling sessions requires a minimum of two adults present; three is recommended. If a female is receiving the counseling, one female adult must be present.
b. Extra Military Instruction (EMI) can include the following:
·   Additional marching not to exceed 1 hour a day to be performed outside normal training periods. Can be imposed individually or as a unit/group.
·   Curtailment of liberty or other free time and assignment of additional watches.
·   Assignment of additional work details, which can include cleaning details. Such work should not be performed after 2200 or before 0600.
·   Additional study, correspondence courses, Blue Jackets Manual, NSCC Regulations, etc.

Ooooohh, wait a minute, we would consider some of that to be 'hazing', wouldn't we?

Regardless, whats your point in this conversation?

Is your sole basis for joining an organization the minutia of their disciplinary actions?

[Hawk200]

JThemann, Salty & Seasoned Contributor -

I'm curious as to how you have come to the conclusion that the first three bulleted items of 0930.3.b. would not meet the CAP definition of hazing as per CAPR 52-10:

"c. Hazing. Hazing is defined as any conduct whereby someone causes another to suffer or to be exposed to any activity that is cruel, abusive, humiliating, oppressive, demeaning, or harmful. Actual or implied consent to acts of hazing does not eliminate the culpability of the perpetrator. Examples of hazing include using exercise as punishment or assigning remedial training that does not fit the deficiency (such as making a cadet run laps for having poorly shined shoes). Hazing, as defined in this policy, is considered a form of physical abuse and the reporting procedures for physical abuse must be followed."

Please note the terms 'humiliating', 'oppressive', and 'demeaning'.  Somehow, I have a hard time believing that any CAP cadet who receives punishment in the form of a field day assignment (e.g., 'cleaning details') or marching alone for ~59 minutes after an activity ends would:

1) Not think all three terms are fitting, and

2) Find that the assignment has no remedial training value.

But maybe that's just me.  Perhaps you could provide further information that would change my point of view.

"Wallking off gigs" is a very old concept in the military to deal with minor infractions. It's better than having paperwork on file that could ruin opportunities later. Even in the Air Force, I've had some additional duties that I took because it was better than having paperwork. I learned the lesson, and moved on.

In general, hazing is when the "punishment" is used for the sole intention of embarassing the person. CAP defines it a little differently, and we comply with their definition because that is the right thing to do. You don't have to agree with it to enforce it.

Strangely, there are perfectly fitting corrective measures that people still consider hazing. I could take a cadet that didn't, wouldn't and doesn't want to shine their shoes, sit them down with a shoe shine kit, tell them to actually shine those shoes, and many people would still consider it "hazing". The problem isn't that it's hazing, it's a matter of human ego. And human ego never likes hearing when it's wrong.

Would I do it in CAP? I'm with Themann on that one. No, I would not. I would probably use counseling letters, and when there's a bunch, I would find a way to dismiss the person. It's the only option we have.

Keep in mind that what CAP considers hazing is far different than what Sea Cadets consider hazing. We have no place to pass judgement on a program that is run differently than our own.

[Flying Pig]

Look, we have thread upon thread about hazing cadets.

I have emailed the Sea Cadet Unit Commander.  But who would I contact in CAP?  The Director of Cadet Programs I guess?

[Flying Pig]

Well, I guess that idea is over.  I posted the same question over on Cadetstuff and got this response.   


Unfortunately our insurance liabilities preclude us from having Cadets from other organizations at our training. We do have some joint trainings, FAA Ground and Flight Schools which are advertised to both programs as well as the Young Marines.

You could always join the NSCC as well, we have lots of cadets in both programs as well as JROTC.

_________________
LCDR Scott D. Oram, NSCC
Director of Internet Development
Regional Director 11-3
U.S. Naval Sea Cadet Corps

[Flying Pig]

From what I have  been able to gather, the SEAL and EOD programs are more PT academies, allowing the cadets to go through the INDOC vs. actually teaching anything related to being a SEAL or EOD.  Also, an overall orientation to Navy EOD or Spec War as a possible career field.

I can't see teenage cadets making night swims, dragging along training charges in surf, trying to attach them a a pier.  Yeah, I'm thinking it's a lot of PT, movies, and  . . . well, I'm not sure what else they could do.  I don't think they'd let the cadets go to SEAL beach parties. 

Although, from this article, making an 1100 yard open ocean swim with no fins aint no joke.  In addition to SCUBA training.  Oh well, its a mute point now.

http://resources.seacadets.org/public_affairs/articles/2005/art_050721.pdf

[Ned]

Well, I guess that idea is over.  I posted the same question over on Cadetstuff and got this response.   


Unfortunately our insurance liabilities preclude us from having Cadets from other organizations at our training. We do have some joint trainings, FAA Ground and Flight Schools which are advertised to both programs as well as the Young Marines.

You could always join the NSCC as well, we have lots of cadets in both programs as well as JROTC.

_________________
LCDR Scott D. Oram, NSCC
Director of Internet Development
Regional Director 11-3
U.S. Naval Sea Cadet Corps

Interoperability is difficult, but not impossible.

It looks like we might have a couple of USAC cadets at COS this year, and I am working with their senior leadership on an MOU that would make it easier to have joint activities.

But like LCDR Oram points out, insurance and CPP-like regulations are a serious hurdle. 

Our regs are pretty clear that a CPP-cleared senior has to be at every "CAP activity"; two if it is an overnight activity.

So, if we send a CAP cadet to a USNSCC activity does it become a "CAP activity"  because a CAP cadet / member is attending in an official capacity?

Maybe. 

And can a CAP cadet be supervised by USNSCC leaders without a CAP senior nearby?

Maybe.

Does it matter if the USNSCC leaders have been through similar CPP training?

Perhaps.

I hate to go "lawyer" on anyone, but we need answers that would sound good to Mom (and perhaps a jury) if, God forbid, something should happen while the cadet is attending another group's activity and breaks his arm on the obstacle course or whatever.

NHQ is actively working the issue, but "actively" in this context means working with lawyers and insurance companies in multiple organizations.   Which means nothing is happening soon.

In the meantime, "joint" activities can and do occur all the time and benefit the cadets and organizations involved.

Ned Lee

[Flying Pig]

Well, I guess that idea is over.  I posted the same question over on Cadetstuff and got this response.   


Unfortunately our insurance liabilities preclude us from having Cadets from other organizations at our training. We do have some joint trainings, FAA Ground and Flight Schools which are advertised to both programs as well as the Young Marines.

You could always join the NSCC as well, we have lots of cadets in both programs as well as JROTC.

_________________
LCDR Scott D. Oram, NSCC
Director of Internet Development
Regional Director 11-3
U.S. Naval Sea Cadet Corps

Interoperability is difficult, but not impossible.

It looks like we might have a couple of USAC cadets at COS this year, and I am working with their senior leadership on an MOU that would make it easier to have joint activities.

But like LCDR Oram points out, insurance and CPP-like regulations are a serious hurdle. 

Our regs are pretty clear that a CPP-cleared senior has to be at every "CAP activity"; two if it is an overnight activity.

So, if we send a CAP cadet to a USNSCC activity does it become a "CAP activity"  because a CAP cadet / member is attending in an official capacity?

Maybe. 

And can a CAP cadet be supervised by USNSCC leaders without a CAP senior nearby?

Maybe.

Does it matter if the USNSCC leaders have been through similar CPP training?

Perhaps.

I hate to go "lawyer" on anyone, but we need answers that would sound good to Mom (and perhaps a jury) if, God forbid, something should happen while the cadet is attending another group's activity and breaks his arm on the obstacle course or whatever.

NHQ is actively working the issue, but "actively" in this context means working with lawyers and insurance companies in multiple organizations.   Which means nothing is happening soon.

In the meantime, "joint" activities can and do occur all the time and benefit the cadets and organizations involved.

Ned Lee

So your admitting its the fault of your species?

[FW]

  Oh well, its a mute point now.

I had a little extra time to waste today.  This explains one of my new pet peeves


Blogs
By Mark Peters

One of my students recently described a "mute point" in an essay.

My usual reaction to that sort of flub is to write something in the margins along the lines of, "Be more careful," or "Avoid mixing up homonyms." I often suggest, "Reading your work aloud can help you identify mistakes of this type," even though that advice probably wouldn't help in this case. Depending on my level of crankiness and alcohol consumption, I might just write, "Your proofreading is horrible."

But I'm not going to write any of that stuff this time.

Instead, I'll point out to the student that a lot of writers have made the same mistake -- in fact, a mid-July Google search located more than 152,000 hits for "mute point," which means my student has enough company to fill a football stadium or two. Even allowing for discussions of the "moot" versus "mute" usage, that's still a metric truckload of mute pointers.

I'll tell the student that there's a reason so many people think the wrong expression is right: Not only does "mute point" sound like "moot point," but a moot point does (or should) end up being silent, unheard, squelched, and yep, mute. Far from being a result of sloppy proofreading or stupidity, "mute point" actually demonstrates that the writer -- though wrong -- is logical, informed, and inventive.

I'll also mention that "mute point" is an "eggcorn" -- a new category of writing mistake that linguists have identified and my fellow college teachers might find useful in responding to student writing. I'm certainly glad to have a new tool that helps me climb down from the high horse I have occasionally mounted in 10-plus years of teaching creative writing, essay writing, business writing, and you-fill-in-the-blank-here writing. It's nice to have a way of explaining mistakes that doesn't make students feel stupid.

Ok, I got that off my chest.  Now, back to the orignial thread.....