Physcial Fitness

[AvroArrow]

I'm sure this has been brought up before, but I couldn't find anything specific to my question. Also, I don't where this would go, so move this topic at your discretion, Mike 


First off, I'd like to say that I can't deny that it'd be hard for me to beat a mile better than 6:30 minutes and that, though I'm in good shape, I'm no where near the athletic abilities as some of the other cadets out there in CAP. I can meet the requirements for Phase III for the CPFT and I'm still working on improvement. But, with that in mind, I was curious to what you all think about Cadet Physcial Fitness (CPF)?

For example, applying for staff at a special activity such as an encampment or NCSA: might physical fitness hinder your chance of being selected if you can meet excellence in the other credentials/requirements? I know no one expects any cadet to "drop down and give me 50 in under 30 seconds," but would not being absolutely full of muscle really hurt your reputation/chances?

I've seem some cadets get heartbroken from embarassment because they were unable to run a mile under 7:00 minutes whereas their peers couldn't, especially encampments, etc.

I guess what I'm trying to say subconsciously is that I'm worried not only for myself, but other cadets out there that I know are "pleasntly plump."

Just trying to get some other opinions out there.

P.S.
Have you seen some of the pictures 'round the internet? 'Ts interesting that some of the cadets who attend the NCGC are as thin as a pole.

[notaNCO forever]

 I think the times for the mile run are to low. Otherwise I think the rest of the requirements are alright.
That is just my opinion probably due to the fact I am horrible at running.

[Cecil DP]

Physical Fitness is evolutionary. The more you do it, the better you can perform. It is also subject to your personal physical limits.   As long as you're actively exercising, you should be fine.  

[DC]

I think the CPFT does a pretty good job of being within reach of nearly all CAP cadets, but getting them stay in some sort of shape. It is not designed to make athletes, and you don't need to be one to pass it, but you still need to be active. That, I believe, is the point in the program.

[Eclipse]

For example, applying for staff at a special activity such as an encampment or NCSA: might physical fitness hinder your chance of being selected if you can meet excellence in the other credentials/requirements? I know no one expects any cadet to "drop down and give me 50 in under 30 seconds," but would not being absolutely full of muscle really hurt your reputation/chances?

There are no prescriptions in 52-16 regarding PT in relation to encampment staff appointments (in fact theres no guidelines at all in this regard).  As long as a cadet is performing at grade level, this should be a non-issue.  If they are unable to perform at grade level, they likely will be failing in other areas of leadership and ability which would be more important factors that their mile times, which, frankly, are irrelevant.

I've seem some cadets get heartbroken from embarrassment because they were unable to run a mile under 7:00 minutes whereas their peers couldn't, especially encampments, etc.

Encampment PT should be group activities designed to stress the importance of PT as a part of the cadet program, not a marathon or a death march.  I can't imagine why anyone involved would even have a watch, let alone be timing runs (unless its part of some competition).  PT testing should be done at home, not an encampment.

Running / jogging / push ups, whatever, should be done at the pace of the lowest common denominator to build the team experience.  If cadets are crying, or require oxygen, its another unfortunate example of senior or cadet staff who don't "get it".

[MIKE]

Me, personally... If I was a wing CP I'd want CPFTs at encampments and staff selections etc for evaluation and training purposes.  Not so much for the individual, but for the units.  Is the unit conducting or conducting the test correctly?  If C/CMSgt Snuffy can't even pass for phase 1, do I need to have a chat with his CC?

[Eclipse]

I agree the Wing DCP should be monitoring and evaluating CPFT at the unit level, but that's outside the scope of an encampment.

Certainly encampments tend to show the weaknesses of a Wing's program and especially units sending cadets who don't perform at grade level (CPFT or otherwise), and an Encampment CC should be alerting Wing of issues that come to light, but I don't think an encampment should be used as a wing auditing tool, per se.

[AvroArrow]

At MOWG, there were a few cadets that couldn't do the "morning run."

The first and second day, they nearly fainted because of lack of oxygen. From then on, they got better, but they still weren't as fast as the other cadets, so cadence was somewhat unorganized.

Stuff like this makes me worried, especially since I'm a staff member for KSWG Encamp.

[notaNCO forever]

 Something encampment staff always needs to remember is that some cadets can't physically do what is being demanded of them. You never know when someone has a undiagnosed medical problem. I also don't think a cadet should not do pt because they are out of breath.

[Eclipse]

The issue with the way we do PT is that for each achievement its a pass/fail, one time hit.

So most cadets ramp up into what they need to do, then go back to the X-Box.  Just because a Chief can't perform to
grade level today doesn't mean he didn't at the time of his testing.

Now, that's going to potentially cause progression issues for Mitchell, but its not cause to give him grief at a encampment.

The above doesn't account for the units which are not doing PT by the book, however, which does need auditing.

[NC Hokie]

I've seem some cadets get heartbroken from embarassment because they were unable to run a mile under 7:00 minutes whereas their peers couldn't, especially encampments, etc.

I think the rest of the group has handled your other concerns pretty well but I have yet to see a direct answer to this one.  The CPFT standards do not require a passing score on the mile run, they just require a passing score on the mile run OR the shuttle run.  This is not an excuse to abandon the mile run entirely (I expect all of my cadets to attempt it, even if they "know" that they won't pass), but it gives those who have trouble with it an opportunity to meet the requirement in another fashion.

[SM-MADDOG]

How many times a month do You guys do PT testing? Our squadron does it once a month. I would kinda like to see PT testing once a month and at the start or the month PT. Im not saying the squadron has to do it like that every month but I think it is a good idea for extra PT. What do any of you cadets feel on that type of PT schedule? Thanks

[NC Hokie]

We conduct the CPFT on the first meeting of the month.  There is no other PT during the month as there is not enough time for it after covering the mandatory subjects, achievement tests, etc.  I make sure that failing cadets know what they need to work on and they know that they have to do it on their own time.

[hatentx]

I think the standards are a little rough.  I know as an Active duty Army Sgt who regularly conducts PT and leads PT with my platoon I am in good shape.  Now I know that at my peek conditioning I am not going to hit the 6:30 mile. 7:00 sure 6:45 maybe but much less than that come on.  While I am only 25 with knee and ankle issues it is still a push for me to hit it.  One of the things I have noticed while running with the cadets is the difficulty to not treat them like my Soldiers.  One falls out you "Motivate" them into falling back in with the group or you turn to formation around until everyone else is mad and decides to "motivate" them as well after PT.  I have no other issue with this other than falling out namely cause I was use to being the kid in Basic getting yelled at all the time.  What have ya'll found that works well with cadets to nudge and not "Motivate" them into trying harder to stay in formation?

[Stonewall]

WIWAC we only had to run a mile for the CPFT; no push-ups, sit-ups or sit-and-reach.

Like Cecil DP said, fitness is evolutionary.  I was in good shape as a kid cadet, but by no means was I able to pass the Army PT Test at age 18 when I went into the Army.  In fact, my best APFT wasn't until I got off of active duty and was in the Guard, where I finally scored the max points (300).  I was 28 at that point.

I don't care for the CPFT standards as I think they are too stringent and the whole in-cadence push-up thing blows my mind.  I seems like CAP's answer to the AF's waist measurement debacle.

Don't worry folks, when you get in the AF you can do whatever form of push-up you want - - - they count everything.  I've seen bodies remain still as heads bounce up and down and the dude gets 60 "push-ups" in 60 seconds....

I think as a cadet, your body is still growing and evolving, so you will not be at your maximum potential for years to come.  And don't get discouraged because some Cheetah smokes past you at 50MPH while you're huffin' it to make a 7:00 minute mile.  Your time will come, unfortunately it may be after you're a cadet.  Just don't give up and become an xbox commando.

[RogueLeader]

My last APFT was 52 pu, 74 su, and a 1536 2 m.  my 1 mile lap time is usually between 7:15 and 7:30.  I just have a different physice (sp?)  I can't ask for cadets to give less that their best, although I hate the fact that the cadets have to push "In Cadence"  I can not do as many that way as compared to my own pace.

[Always Ready]

<rant>I hate the CPFT standards. As a cadet I struggled with the mile. During the first two phases, the standards aren't too bad. But, if you join CAP late in your teenage years (like I did, 16 y.o.) or progress to around the Mitchell, things start to get rough with the mile. I was 'lucky' enough to grow up on Air Force bases so when the AF started a "real" PT program, I would go to the gym and work out with whichever squadron was working out. Sometime Security Forces, sometimes the flyboys and gals, and other times it would be the fat, lazy comm folks (My dad was in Comm). I also played varsity football and basketball in high school. Now, I am skin and bone with very lean muscles. The running joke that my dad had for me, was that I could "pass AF PT standards but not CAP...how sad." I had no problems with anything else, just the mile. I worked out daily and ran several miles daily. My problem is I can out run most people in a three or four miles, but not in a mile or less. So when I moved away to college, I was doing AFROTC PT and elected to work out with the Army to build my endurance. Once again, I would pass AF PT standards with flying colors and would pass Army standards (dunno how well). I still couldn't run a mile in under 7 minutes. That was half the reason I went Senior Member at 18. When someone can pass PT standards for the active duty military but not for the cadet auxiliary, there is something wrong with the system.<end rant> Just my two cents. Change the mile standards and everything else is ok.

+1 for making the CPFT mandatory for NCSAs, staff selections, encampments, etc. I've noticed certain squadrons fudge on their PT testing.

[jimmydeanno]

As my wing's CAC Senior Advisor, I hear a lot of complaints about the CPFT - not because the standards are too hard, but because the push-ups in cadence are awkward and the shuttlerun is practically impossible. 

A lot of people I talk to say that the PT is watered down from "when they were cadets."  But I don't think they are - I think they are harder than before.  I remember as a cadet using the 300 point system and each achievement needed a certain number of points to pass.  So for your curry, you'd need something like 40 points out of 300 to pass.  It worked out so that if you could do any of the events and max it out, you didn't need to complete the other two until around your Mitchell Award and really didn't need to do all three until your Earhart.

Over the last few months I've been thinking about the PT situation and revisiting the goal of the program, which is to promote a lifelong habit of fitness.  Do we do that now?  I don't think so, we promote a test.

Anyway, I've noticed that if a cadet joins and isn't very fit at all they are discouraged from even participating in the program because it could take them a year to meet the Curry requirements, etc. 

With that I thought about possibly changing the program to something like...

1) Cadet joins CAP.  There is no standard PT requirement like "12 year old males needs a 9:00 mile for Curry."  But rather, the cadet establishes a baseline fitness level that they're at.

2) The cadet takes the "test."  He runs the mile in 15:00, does 6 sit-ups, 3 push-ups and reaches 10 cm.

3) From there, we set the expectation of improvement between achievements.  So say CAP decides that the improvement should be 2% between achievements the cadet would need to do the following to earn the Arnold Achievement:

Mile: 14:42 (2% of 15:00 is .3 minutes or 18 seconds)
Sit-ups: 7 (we'll round up <1 numbers to at least 1 unit)
Pushups: 4
S&R: 12

This also works well for cadets that already have a high level of fitness because percentages are proportionate to the original amount.  So a kid that runs a 7:00 mile would only need to shave 8 seconds off his mile as opposed to 18 for the other kid.

Now, obviously once you reach a certain point it becomes increasingly more difficult to take more time off.  A person that runs a 5:00 mile is going to have a harder time knocking off 3 seconds than someone that runs a 15 minute mile.

With that in mind there'd be a "max" set so people don't need to be impossibly fit.

The only difficulties that I would see is calculating what each cadet would need to do.  However, this is easily solved with the use of the online promotion system.  When the cadet joins, you enter their baseline and the "system" calculates the needed progression into a nifty chart - you give it to the cadet or it gets emailed to them or whatever and you input their scores from there on.  Voila!

Thoughts?

[cnitas]

When someone can pass PT standards for the active duty military but not for the cadet auxiliary, there is something wrong with the system
...

+1 for making the CPFT mandatory for NCSAs, staff selections, encampments, etc.

These statements seem somewhat inconsistant to me.  So you want to further penalize that older cadet having trouble with the run by keeping them from staff, encampment, and NCSAs? 

[RogueLeader]

It's an added incentive to work harder at it.  At the same time, it needs to be changed to something along the lines of what JD was saying.

[DC]

As my wing's CAC Senior Advisor, I hear a lot of complaints about the CPFT - not because the standards are too hard, but because the push-ups in cadence are awkward and the shuttlerun is practically impossible. 

A lot of people I talk to say that the PT is watered down from "when they were cadets."  But I don't think they are - I think they are harder than before.  I remember as a cadet using the 300 point system and each achievement needed a certain number of points to pass.  So for your curry, you'd need something like 40 points out of 300 to pass.  It worked out so that if you could do any of the events and max it out, you didn't need to complete the other two until around your Mitchell Award and really didn't need to do all three until your Earhart.

Over the last few months I've been thinking about the PT situation and revisiting the goal of the program, which is to promote a lifelong habit of fitness.  Do we do that now?  I don't think so, we promote a test.

Anyway, I've noticed that if a cadet joins and isn't very fit at all they are discouraged from even participating in the program because it could take them a year to meet the Curry requirements, etc. 

With that I thought about possibly changing the program to something like...

1) Cadet joins CAP.  There is no standard PT requirement like "12 year old males needs a 9:00 mile for Curry."  But rather, the cadet establishes a baseline fitness level that they're at.

2) The cadet takes the "test."  He runs the mile in 15:00, does 6 sit-ups, 3 push-ups and reaches 10 cm.

3) From there, we set the expectation of improvement between achievements.  So say CAP decides that the improvement should be 2% between achievements the cadet would need to do the following to earn the Arnold Achievement:

Mile: 14:42 (2% of 15:00 is .3 minutes or 18 seconds)
Sit-ups: 7 (we'll round up <1 numbers to at least 1 unit)
Pushups: 4
S&R: 12

This also works well for cadets that already have a high level of fitness because percentages are proportionate to the original amount.  So a kid that runs a 7:00 mile would only need to shave 8 seconds off his mile as opposed to 18 for the other kid.

Now, obviously once you reach a certain point it becomes increasingly more difficult to take more time off.  A person that runs a 5:00 mile is going to have a harder time knocking off 3 seconds than someone that runs a 15 minute mile.

With that in mind there'd be a "max" set so people don't need to be impossibly fit.

The only difficulties that I would see is calculating what each cadet would need to do.  However, this is easily solved with the use of the online promotion system.  When the cadet joins, you enter their baseline and the "system" calculates the needed progression into a nifty chart - you give it to the cadet or it gets emailed to them or whatever and you input their scores from there on.  Voila!

Thoughts?

That is an interesting idea, but I can see issues with keeping track of the criteria for each individual cadet (what is C/Amn Snuffly forgets his sheet?). How about establishing a series of 'brackets' that cadets would fall into with their baseline test. For each achievement they have to move up to the next one, which would be a 2% improvement, or whatever. It would simplify the system a little, at the cost of a small amount of consistency from cadet to cadet... It would still require more record keeping than the current system, but I think it is a viable idea, and would certainly better accomplish the stated goal of the CPFT...

[jimmydeanno]

That is an interesting idea, but I can see issues with keeping track of the criteria for each individual cadet (what is C/Amn Snuffly forgets his sheet?).

That doesn't matter.  The promotions are being recorded online, so you tie it in there.  Make it so the cadet can view their "chart" somewhere easily accessible in e-services so they can reference it, print it, whatever.  All the adminstrator needs to worry about is putting in raw data into the boxes online.

[Always Ready]

When someone can pass PT standards for the active duty military but not for the cadet auxiliary, there is something wrong with the system
...

+1 for making the CPFT mandatory for NCSAs, staff selections, encampments, etc.

These statements seem somewhat inconsistant to me.  So you want to further penalize that older cadet having trouble with the run by keeping them from staff, encampment, and NCSAs? 

The chances of National changing the PT standards so people like me could pass is highly unlikely. I can tell you from experience that when an older cadet has a problem with anything in Cadet Programs, *most* Senior Members will tell them, "If you don't like it, quit or go Senior Member." That's been my experience, YMMV. The chances of me being able to change National standards are slim to none. But the chances of me talking the Wing Director of Cadet Programs into administering a PT test for all those who apply for NCSAs is pretty good.

Regardless of what I think of the standards, I believe that they should be fully enforced at all times. I've seen too many cadets both young and old get picked for NCSAs and other activities that could NOT pass the first phase PT test unless they were at their home unit with their home unit SMs administering the test. It is apparent at any encampment that does PT tests that certain units will stand out from the rest...not always in a good way either. I would rather send a cadet that barely qualifies but meets the standards, than a cadet who is well rounded and can't meet standards. Barely passing is still passing. Barely failing is still failing. Same thing with uniforms, the person may look good on paper and seem to know what they are talking about during the interview, but if they can't wear the uniform properly, would you send them on a NCSA?

[MIKE]

Jimmydeanno would have us do more math... Screw that! 

Not really in favor of such a customized program...  You might be able to get me to agree to get more current data to base the standards off of.  But the get fit or phail... or get a doctors signature is good enough for me. 

[jimmydeanno]

Jimmydeanno would have us do more math... Screw that! 

Again, no math skills required.    Just enter the data, computer does all the work.  Attached is a spreadsheet I just put together to demonstrate.  Enter the data on the "baseline" row and the rest populates.  The cadet gets this chart as part of his e-services record and promotion criteria online.

Note that the spreadsheet doesn't have the "max" built in so you may get some unrealistic requirements with lower miles or high situps, etc.

Having a "customized" PT program is also something that CAP doesn't do but should - "student focused" education.

Have fun!

[BillB]

As a Wing DCP, I saw several excellent cadets fail the Spaatz PT test. Their 20 year old bodies developed differently to make the mile run harder. One cadet always passed the mile run requirements up until he earned the Earhart, which he barely passed. So he dropped from the program knowing he would not pass the Spaatz PT test.
I believe in total I saw 12 cadets fail the Spaatz PT test, and they hit age 21 before they could retry, or just dropped from CAP. I every case the cadets passed all portions of the PT test except for the mile run.
The cadence pushups are also a problem and needs to be changed back to the original allowing cadets to do the pushups as their own pace.

[cnitas]

The chances of National changing the PT standards so people like me could pass is highly unlikely.

Not so sure about that.  I have seen 2 rewrites of the PT program since I have been in CAP.

The chances of me being able to change National standards are slim to none. But the chances of me talking the Wing Director of Cadet Programs into administering a PT test for all those who apply for NCSAs is pretty good.

Again, why?  You have made it clear, and many of us agree that the standards are too high for older cadets.  Why perpetuate a broken system and hurt others who would otherwise be great cadets?  This sounds like a sour grapes issue to me.

Regardless of what I think of the standards, I believe that they should be fully enforced at all times.

Yes, and the standard is that the cadet is tested and signed off at their squadron by either the DCC or CC. 

I've seen too many cadets both young and old get picked for NCSAs and other activities that could NOT pass the first phase PT test unless they were at their home unit with their home unit SMs administering the test. It is apparent at any encampment that does PT tests that certain units will stand out from the rest...not always in a good way either. I would rather send a cadet that barely qualifies but meets the standards, than a cadet who is well rounded and can't meet standards. Barely passing is still passing. Barely failing is still failing. Same thing with uniforms, the person may look good on paper and seem to know what they are talking about during the interview, but if they can't wear the uniform properly, would you send them on a NCSA?

I have seen these cadets as well.  But you are changing your set of facts.  We were talking about a 17-21 yr old who can pass Army PFT standards.  That cadet is not a 'fatbody' and is obviously fit. 
Cadets who are 14 yr old, can't pass Ach. 3 run, and are wearing C/2Lt, are a local leadership problem, and a completely different issue.  Mandatory PT tests at these events would serve no purpose other than to exclude those cadets (Fit 17-21 yr olds) from Wing, Region and National activities.

All that said, Both of my Phase 3 cadets have enrolled in school track in order to meet the run times (good).  Too bad they will miss about 1/2 the meetings and activities during that time since track meets and practice interfere with CAP (Bad, Bad, BAD!).  I hope they retain interest.

[Ned]

The problem isn't that we don't have enough ideas on how to "improve" the CPFT by changing calculations or even changing the events and standards.

Indeed, I'll wager that if we asked 50 experienced CP leaders to modify the CPFt or design a new one, we would come up with pretty close to 50 reasonable ideas.

The current CPFT was a clever solution to the earlier generation of PT issues -- the problem being that the standards were arbitrariliy established based on somebody's bright idea of what a cadet at a given point in the program "should" be able to do.

"I think a Spaatz cadet should be able to run a mile in . . . . 6 minutes.  Yeah, that's the ticket."

"No, these are the epitome of Dynamic American Aerospace Leaders, they should be able to run the mile in five flat."


Or, we based them very roughly on military standards.  Example, when I took my Spaatz test, I was required to run 1.5 miles in 10:15 seconds; since that was what Dr. Cooper's data suggested the top 20% of USAF recruits could do.

(How the data from 18-20 year old USAF enlistees should relate to a 15-16 year old CAP cadet was never very clear.)

So, NHQ wisely began to look for some externally generated and validated PT standards for young people in our age cohort (12-20.99).  The theory was - and is - that the standards would be based on American youth in the same age and gender norms as our cadets.  A real "apples to apples" set of standards.

Unfortunately, there isn't any data that covers that entire age range.   The various military services' standards start at age 17, which would exclude the majority of our cadets.  (And a 12 year old is not just 12/17ths of a 17 year old.  There are significant changes during adolescence that affect things like the ability to run and do exercises.)

But they did find the well documented Presidents Council data.  This was data derived from testing actual American youth across the country.  Two slight problems presented:  First, the data stops at age 18.  Not great, but the data still covers that great kajority of our troops and we can do a little math interpretation for the rest.

Second, the data is based on their particular set of measured exercises -- hence the odd (to us) cadenced push-up.  But although it feels weird, we need to do it exactly as prescribed to make the data valid.

So, NHQ fielded the CPFT which received a lukewarm reception.  After a push up video was posted, and after a lot of experience was generated via hard work in the field, the process seemed to be going well until a great deal of concern was generated about passage rates.  The NCAC and CP officers in the field believed that a large percentage of troops were having trouble with the CPFT and were stagnating in grade as a result.

(The NHQ database which at the time only tracked milestone awards did not show a significant slowdown in milestone achievements, but we figured it may well be a lagging indicator.)

As a direct response to the concerns, the "pass the run plus two out of three events" rule was issued to meet concerns about pass rates.

There are still concerns about the CPFT -- the NCAC has recently proposed significant changes to the CPFT because they believe the standards are too low.



So, if feel free to develop a new CPFT or to modify the existing test.  But I suggest that any modification or new proposal  meet the following criteria:

1.  The test should be easy to administer on a typical unit meeting night.  IOW, it should not take more than an hour to run the squadron through.

2.  The test should not require any specialized equipment to administer beyond commonly available tools like tape measures and watches.  It should not require laptops, lasers, or a swimming pool.  Don't make the Testing Officer pore over multiple tables and perform calculations with her stubby pencil in the dark parking lot.

3.  The standards should be easy to understand.  ("So easy a senior could understand it.")

4.  It should be amenable to winter weather -- IOW, units that meet in areas that commonly accumulate snow should be able to conduct a CPFT.

5.  To the maximum extent possible it should be based directly upon externally generated and validated standards for young people in our age group.

6.  For bonus points, try to make it fun.  


Ned Lee

[caprr275]

Just a FYI the NCAC has drafted a new CPFT idea which goes back to the point based system but still uses the Presidents Council data. Last I head it was being sent on for approval to get it on the winter national board agenda.

I have mixed feelings about this proposal however it has not been released yet (as far as I know of) so I will keep my thoughts to myself for now.

I will post it once it is added and published in the agenda for the WNB

[RiverAux]

Testing with a start at an individual baseline won't work for the simple reason that even a 12-year old can probably figure out that they really need to do as poorly as possible that first time and then will have an easy time of it for the rest of their CAP career.

Those mile run times seem somewhat unrealistic. 

[SarDragon]

The olde joke goes:

"How do you get to Carnegie Hall?"

"Practice, practice, practice."

Now, how you run faster? Run. A lot.

I always had trouble running in HS. A 12 minute mile for me was a major accomplishment. During my time in the Navy, the PFT changed at least three times, and at the time of my retirement, consisted of a 1.5 mile run, a sit and reach, situps, and pushups.

At my last unit, the OinC took PT seriously, and we did our mandatory "grunt and sweat" twice a week. My 1.5 mile time improved from something over 14 minutes, down to a 12:06. That's an 8 minute mile, at 40 yo.

By now, y'all are wondering where this is going. Our cadets aren't running enough. Many expect to do PT a couple of times a month, just like a lot of folks did WIWOAD, and expect to pass an increasingly more difficult PFT. Guess what? Ain't gonna happen.

FYI, I just started running again last week, after a 5 year lapse. I ran and walked about 2 miles. When I was running, it was at a 12 min mile pace. The walking pace was a bit slower. I anticipate getting better as I run more, just like I did 20 yrs ago. Our cadets need to do the same - run more. The plan for me is to participate in a half-marathon in August. More progress reports later, in a different thread.

</rant, thanks for reading>

[kd8gua]

WIWAC, I had a terrible time with PT. I maxed out as a cadet as a C/SMSgt. Oddly enough I never actually passed a CPFT exam.

My PT scores were terrible. My mile runs averaged well over 10 minutes. In high school gym class, we did the Presidential Fitness tests as our final exam for a grade. The last three times I ran the mile for class, the first was a 15:20 or so, the second time the gym teacher told me to not even finish the last lap around the track, because we "had better things to do," and the last time a mile came up in high school, the gym teacher asked me if I even wanted to try it, as he'd rather have me just sit out. We only had gym class freshman and sophomore years of high school. My sit ups were closest to the regs, but still not passing. Push ups averaged about 10-15 towards my end in CAP. I used to opt for the shuttle run, as I could almost pass it. The sit and reach was my worst event. I have terrible hamstrings, more than likely genetic from my father, that I should have gotten a medical waiver for, but never bothered. When I sit with my legs out in front of me, I sit on my tailbone instead of my butt. When trying to do the sit and reach, my back turns into a "C" shape, instead of an "L" shape. As such, the best score I ever got on sit and reach was to actually touch the end of the box.

Before you assume I was some very overweight or sickly cadet, I was not. In high school, I was 6'1, maxed out at 6'4, and my body weight averaged about 150-160 pounds. I was thin and just not in good shape. I personally could not motivate myself to work out without other people around. In both squadrons I was in, the cadet and senior staff both recognized my CPFT issues from the start, and almost "felt bad" for me, and I promoted with failing CPFT scores all the way up to Doolittle. The Squadron Commander at my final squadron eventually told me that either I get in shape or not promote. As such I maxed out at Doolittle, even though I did take both the last aerospace and the Goddard exams.

Did these squadrons break the rules in letting me promote without passing PT? Absolutely. But on the same token, I don't recall too many cadets in either squadron actually passing all of the achievements for CPFT. If either squadron I was in followed the rules, I would have left CAP after 3 years as a C/AB. I know a lot of other cadets would have maxed out at low grades too. The testing officers at the squadrons also believed that the CPFT requirements were too high for most cadets to achieve, especially at the beginning. They followed a guideline of "as long as there is a marked improvement in scores between each testing period, the cadet should be eligible for promotion."

Honestly that's how it should be. Not everyone is capable of being a superman and perfectly in shape. And not everyone has issues that are actual medical conditions.

[SarDragon]

Passing the PFT for Wright or Mitchell is not anywhere close to Superman status. I met the male 17+ Wright requirements at age 54, and could meet all of the male 17+ Phase II Ach 4-6 requirements except the sit & reach at the same time.

Like I said in my previous post, you need to do the things in CAPP 52-18 on a regular, more often than once a twice a month, basis.

[edit to fix the Phase II part.]

[jimmydeanno]

WIWAC, I had a terrible time with PT. I maxed out as a cadet as a C/SMSgt. Oddly enough I never actually passed a CPFT exam.

My PT scores were terrible. My mile runs averaged well over 10 minutes. In high school gym class, we did the Presidential Fitness tests as our final exam for a grade. The last three times I ran the mile for class, the first was a 15:20 or so, the second time the gym teacher told me to not even finish the last lap around the track, because we "had better things to do," and the last time a mile came up in high school, the gym teacher asked me if I even wanted to try it, as he'd rather have me just sit out. We only had gym class freshman and sophomore years of high school. My sit ups were closest to the regs, but still not passing. Push ups averaged about 10-15 towards my end in CAP. I used to opt for the shuttle run, as I could almost pass it. The sit and reach was my worst event. I have terrible hamstrings, more than likely genetic from my father, that I should have gotten a medical waiver for, but never bothered. When I sit with my legs out in front of me, I sit on my tailbone instead of my butt. When trying to do the sit and reach, my back turns into a "C" shape, instead of an "L" shape. As such, the best score I ever got on sit and reach was to actually touch the end of the box.

Before you assume I was some very overweight or sickly cadet, I was not. In high school, I was 6'1, maxed out at 6'4, and my body weight averaged about 150-160 pounds. I was thin and just not in good shape. I personally could not motivate myself to work out without other people around. In both squadrons I was in, the cadet and senior staff both recognized my CPFT issues from the start, and almost "felt bad" for me, and I promoted with failing CPFT scores all the way up to Doolittle. The Squadron Commander at my final squadron eventually told me that either I get in shape or not promote. As such I maxed out at Doolittle, even though I did take both the last aerospace and the Goddard exams.

Did these squadrons break the rules in letting me promote without passing PT? Absolutely. But on the same token, I don't recall too many cadets in either squadron actually passing all of the achievements for CPFT. If either squadron I was in followed the rules, I would have left CAP after 3 years as a C/AB. I know a lot of other cadets would have maxed out at low grades too. The testing officers at the squadrons also believed that the CPFT requirements were too high for most cadets to achieve, especially at the beginning. They followed a guideline of "as long as there is a marked improvement in scores between each testing period, the cadet should be eligible for promotion."

Honestly that's how it should be. Not everyone is capable of being a superman and perfectly in shape. And not everyone has issues that are actual medical conditions.

I'm sorry, but I have a really hard time with what you just posted, not so much the "marked improvement" theory - but the utter lack of regard for the rules of the cadet program, CAP Core Values and lack of ethics in your post.

By your own admission...

...you didn't actually earn any of the achievement awards you wore as a cadet.
...the problem wasn't with the PT program, but with your own lack of motivation (laziness).
...your commanders disregarded the CAP rules and regulations and handed out promotions to those who didn't earn them.

The whole point of the PT program is to promote a lifetime habit of physical fitness.  The way you do that is by adhering to the program, working out more than once a month, not being lazy and trying to meet/beat the established goals. 

If someone has a medical issue that prevents them from completing CPFT, there are waivers.  If the issue is a mental disability, it's still a medically waiverable item.  So, we've eliminated both physical and mental disability.  What's left?  Laziness.  I'm not a big one for promoting because someone is out of shape because of laziness.  You?

[lordmonar]

My problem with the CAP PT program is that there is just not enough time to do it.

The CPF Program is designed to promote a lifestyle of physical fitness but we only do it once a month?(if that often).

I agree a healthy lifestyle is a good thing....but CAP can't be all things.  We do a good try at it....but with the manditory testing, manditory leaders labs, manditory aerospace education, manditory character development....then you throw in ES, DDR, Safety Breifings, OPSEC breifings.....we just don't have the time.

Just doing the PT test takes an hour if you got more then 10 cadets.  But the program tells you that it is more then just doing the test.  When exactly are we supposed to do it?

[jimmydeanno]

Just doing the PT test takes an hour if you got more then 10 cadets.  But the program tells you that it is more then just doing the test.  When exactly are we supposed to do it?

I have ~45 active cadets in my unit.  We conduct the CPFT start to finish in 30 minutes each month, even with the mile run.

Our "testing night" runs down like this on average:

1830-1900: Opening Formation, Drill/Flight Time
1900-1930: Achievement Testing
1930-2000: CPFT
2000-2100: PT Activity/Sport

Sometimes we end up shaving a few minutes off the PT activity because something goes a little over, but still have time to do something physical other than the CPFT.

Maybe I'm just lucky that the "slowest" mile run time for our cadets last month was 8:35. 

It works out pretty well though.

The mile is timed by a senior w/ a stopwatch.  As they cross, their times are shouted out and recorded.
Situps, they pair up and count for each other.  1 minute, swap, 1 minute.  Scores are recorded.
Pushups, take about 2 minutes for the last kid to finish.  Again, pair off, each count for each other.
Sit and Reach, we made 3 sit and reach boxes that run simultaneously, so you get 3 cadets every 15 seconds or so, 12 per minute, 4 minutes total.

So, we'll figure 10 minutes for organized stretching.
12 minutes for running and cool down.
3 minutes for situps
4 minutes for pushups
4 minutes for sit and reach
------
33 minutes, ish?

I supposed that we could put something else in the hour after that stuff and do the sports thing on a different night (more than once per month for PT stuff), but they're already wearing the right clothing on that night...

[kd8gua]

I'm sorry, but I have a really hard time with what you just posted, not so much the "marked improvement" theory - but the utter lack of regard for the rules of the cadet program, CAP Core Values and lack of ethics in your post.

By your own admission...

...you didn't actually earn any of the achievement awards you wore as a cadet.
...the problem wasn't with the PT program, but with your own lack of motivation (laziness).
...your commanders disregarded the CAP rules and regulations and handed out promotions to those who didn't earn them.

The whole point of the PT program is to promote a lifetime habit of physical fitness.  The way you do that is by adhering to the program, working out more than once a month, not being lazy and trying to meet/beat the established goals. 

If someone has a medical issue that prevents them from completing CPFT, there are waivers.  If the issue is a mental disability, it's still a medically waiverable item.  So, we've eliminated both physical and mental disability.  What's left?  Laziness.  I'm not a big one for promoting because someone is out of shape because of laziness.  You?

I understand looking back on it now that what occured was a complete and utter disregard for the CPFT requirements. However, as a cadet, I didn't know what to expect. I full out believed that every promotion time, I would be held back because of the scores, but I was promoted just as much as the other cadets. Am I saying it was right? No. Frankly I would have rather been held back.

Before I was in CAP I didn't do any sort of physical activity at all. I've never been a fan of sports or anything of that nature, so I chose not to play them. Going through CAP, I actually started to get into some of the best shape I had ever been in.

[Fuzzy]

But they did find the well documented Presidents Council data.  This was data derived from testing actual American youth across the country.  Two slight problems presented:  First, the data stops at age 18.  Not great, but the data still covers that great kajority of our troops and we can do a little math interpretation for the rest.

So why does it just slope off at 17 plus?

[SarDragon]

I'm guessing the original sample group was limited to HS students, most of whom are 18 and under.

[wuzafuzz]

I have a big problem with our PT program.  Our cadet program is a citizenship program not just a PT program.  Yet, we tell kids they can't advance in grade AT ALL, or participate in some activities, until they pass the PT test.  While that may be fine for some kids, others who don't join already fit are excluded and become discouraged.  Instead of establishing a brick wall so early in the program I'd prefer to see it ramp up a bit more slowly.  We can encourage fitness without excluding some kids from CAP.

Yes, my opinion is sour grapes.  My son joined CAP with me.  He was a skinny couch potato.  Not a fat body but not speedy either.  He worked hard, practicing the PT events several times a week at home.  The shuttle run, in particular, was a challenge for him.  He could pull it off at home, but when tested on a waxed concrete floor during a meeting he usually didn't make it.  To be fair, some other kids made the time.  After most of a year he had no interest in renewing his membership.  Instead of working with him over time we created a barrier to enjoying the social and academic benefits of CAP.

It's ironic we hold the cadets to challenging standards but refuse to do the same for our senior members.  We invent fat and fuzzy uniforms to parade in front of the cadets while telling them they can't come out to play unless they get with the program.  Really cool double standard there.

I will forever be angry and disappointed with regard to my son's CAP experience.  It's as if we institutionalized peer pressure and label some kids as losers, unworthy of membership.  The youth programs (Sea Cadets and Law Enforcement Explorers) I was a member of as a kid managed to sell us on physical fitness without casting away members with challenges.  It's a shame CAP can't seem to do the same.

Rant over.   

[Майор Хаткевич]

I've always struggled with my mile run. My best was a 7:19 in 8th grade or something. I've also struggled with my weight since moving to the US, packing up pounds as fast as I was growing in height. The mile was a forgone conclusion for me by Earhart, and I had to try the shuttle a number of times to hit it.

I don't blame anyone for the standards, as I know a number of people who can meet all the requirements, even the 6:23 mile for the Spaatz. Personally, I'm not sure if I am one of those people, and for that reason I am thankful for the shuttle option. While I'm getting in shape right now by loosing weight and then planning on exercising to meet the standards, I know my strengths (Sit-ups, Sit-and-Reach, Shuttle) and my weaknesses (Mile run and Push-ups). Does that mean I like it? No, not really, and I plan on working on those areas. But in the meantime, I am encouraged that I should be able to pass PT with the standards available.

P.S. Thinking about the president's challenge, when was the last time they did a re-evaluation of the standards? As much as it hurts to admit, my generation sits on it's ass a lot more then people did 10-20 years ago. 

Looking at what I found on the PC website:
At 75% (Spaatz)
Pushups - 46 (1 per 3 second)
Mile - 6:23 (Minutes:Seconds)
Sit and Reach - 40 (Centimeters)
Shuttle Run - 8.9 (Seconds) (6.9 at 100%!!!)
Sit-ups - 51 (One Minute)

CAP Standards:
Pushups - 49 (1 per 3 second)
Mile - 6:23 (Minutes:Seconds)
Sit and Reach - 40 (Centimeters)
Shuttle Run - 8.9 (Seconds)
Sit-ups - 51 (One Minute)

Not much of a difference except on the push-ups. Still, making a graph out of the stats on the events, it's basically linear with a huge jump to 100% with the exception of the Push-ups which seem stable in growth at each 5% mark.

P.P.S. I am on the phone with the PresChal organization, and the original testing was done in 1985, and the latest statistics were taken in 1998. I asked them if/when they may be doing another round of testing, and was told that the current administration is looking into doing another round of testing within the next few years.

He told me the standards from the 1985 program at the 75% for males 17+, and it is all the same as the 1998 standards/CAP standards, yet the push ups weren't measured that year.

[Ned]

I have a big problem with our PT program.  Our cadet program is a citizenship program not just a PT program. 

Not quite.

Although we hope that all successful cadets become successful citizens, doctrinally the CAP cadet program is a leadership program.  (CAPR 52-16,  para 1-1.)

And physical fitness is one of the five elements that comprise the program.

Yet, we tell kids they can't advance in grade AT ALL, or participate in some activities, until they pass the PT test. 

True enough.  But it is the same for every other aspect of our program.  Cadets must pass tests in each achievement to earn promotion.  How is PT any different than aerospace or leadership?

Some cadets have difficulty with our academic standards, some might  be especially challenged by the PT standards.  It sounds like your son fell into the latter group.

I will forever be angry and disappointed with regard to my son's CAP experience.  It's as if we institutionalized peer pressure and label some kids as losers, unworthy of membership.  The youth programs (Sea Cadets and Law Enforcement Explorers) I was a member of as a kid managed to sell us on physical fitness without casting away members with challenges.  It's a shame CAP can't seem to do the same.

Eric,

I am truly sorry that your son was disappointed with his CAP experience.  I honestly wish he could have had the same successes in the program that you and I have had.

No member should ever be the target of ridicule or humiliation.  Although such experiences may be common in school or in the neighborhood, CAP has strong standards to protect our cadets. 

Respect for Others.
CAP cadets require an atmoshpere of mutual respect and courtesy to learn and grow as leaders.  Accordingly, CAP cadets must treat each other and their senior member leaders with common courtesy and respect.  CAP cadets will not intentionally insult or mock other members, and will not use racial, cultural , or ethnic slurs at any time.

As well as our Core Value of Respect.

4. Respect.  CAP members come from all walks of life.  Therefore, it is extremely important that members treat each other with fairness and dignity, and work together as a team.

No CP leader worth her/his salt would tolerate any sort of ridicule of a cadet based on an inability to pass a given PT test or because of a perceived lack of physical fitness.

It sounds like that didn't happen in your son's squadron, and we can and should do better in that regard.



It is also worth remembering that our PT standards are based on the validated President's Challenge data derived from extensive testing of real students nationwide.  And we chose to set the Phase I standards at the 25th percentile, meaning that 75% of current American youth already meet the standards for their age and gender.

IOW, these aren't some arbitrary standards that some NHQ staffer picked out of thin air.  They represent the best standards we could find, based on actual performance of Americans in our age cohort.

I spent some time explaining how we derived the numbers a little earlier in this thread.

Ned Lee
National Cadet Advisor
(Cool job, crummy job title)

[PHall]

I have a big problem with our PT program.  Our cadet program is a citizenship program not just a PT program.  Yet, we tell kids they can't advance in grade AT ALL, or participate in some activities, until they pass the PT test.  While that may be fine for some kids, others who don't join already fit are excluded and become discouraged.  Instead of establishing a brick wall so early in the program I'd prefer to see it ramp up a bit more slowly.  We can encourage fitness without excluding some kids from CAP.

Yes, my opinion is sour grapes.  My son joined CAP with me.  He was a skinny couch potato.  Not a fat body but not speedy either.  He worked hard, practicing the PT events several times a week at home.  The shuttle run, in particular, was a challenge for him.  He could pull it off at home, but when tested on a waxed concrete floor during a meeting he usually didn't make it.  To be fair, some other kids made the time.  After most of a year he had no interest in renewing his membership.  Instead of working with him over time we created a barrier to enjoying the social and academic benefits of CAP.

It's ironic we hold the cadets to challenging standards but refuse to do the same for our senior members.  We invent fat and fuzzy uniforms to parade in front of the cadets while telling them they can't come out to play unless they get with the program.  Really cool double standard there.

I will forever be angry and disappointed with regard to my son's CAP experience.  It's as if we institutionalized peer pressure and label some kids as losers, unworthy of membership.  The youth programs (Sea Cadets and Law Enforcement Explorers) I was a member of as a kid managed to sell us on physical fitness without casting away members with challenges.  It's a shame CAP can't seem to do the same.

Rant over.   

Was he not allowed to do the mile run? You don't have to do both the mile run and the shuttle run, it's one or the other.

Usually cadets who have trouble with one can usually pass the other.

[wuzafuzz]

Was he not allowed to do the mile run? You don't have to do both the mile run and the shuttle run, it's one or the other.

Usually cadets who have trouble with one can usually pass the other.

He was, but had concentrated his efforts on the shuttle run. 

[wuzafuzz]

No CP leader worth her/his salt would tolerate any sort of ridicule of a cadet based on an inability to pass a given PT test or because of a perceived lack of physical fitness.

It sounds like that didn't happen in your son's squadron, and we can and should do better in that regard.

Ned Lee
National Cadet Advisor
(Cool job, crummy job title)

I didn't mean to imply cadet leadership hazed him.  It was simply that the first CPFT and promotion is the cost of entry to so many things.  A kid who doesn't pass right away is denied access to so many cool things that CAP may not be interesting enough to them to continue trying.  I would prefer to see it ramp up more slowly.  Hook them with some cool stuff and perhaps they will be more motivated to succeed.  If not, they still have some fun for their membership dollars.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I didn't mean to imply cadet leadership hazed him.  It was simply that the first CPFT and promotion is the cost of entry to so many things.  A kid who doesn't pass right away is denied access to so many cool things that CAP may not be interesting enough to them to continue trying.  I would prefer to see it ramp up more slowly.  Hook them with some cool stuff and perhaps they will be more motivated to succeed.  If not, they still have some fun for their membership dollars.

A C/AB  can still have fun at the unit. I've dealt with a number of cadets who were unable to pass the Curry PT on the first or second try. Did I feel saddened by the fact that their beginning of the CAP is being delayed? You bet. Was there much to do about it? Not really.

Besides working with the cadet, and explaining on how to improve, little can be done. We can't just hand them their first stripe, they need to earn it. If we were to give them the first, it would create expectations for the next one down the line, and resentment from those who did pass all the requirements.

If the cadets are getting discouraged, then something needed to be done to keep them motivated. I hated nothing more than seeing people drop off after the first month or two due to being unable to pass the Curry. I viewed it as a shame, and a loss for both my unit and the cadet, because they are missing out on such a great opportunity.

When I started CAP, I was your typical youth. I wasn't a bad kid, I had some normal goals, and I was afraid of public speaking to death. By the time I was a C/SSgt, and in 8th grade, I was still afraid of public speaking, but having to learn how to drill a flight (and the fear of screwing up!), slowly edged me out of that particular fear.

Now I'm in college, and while most of my peers groan when speaking projects are assigned, I take them for what they are, and look forward to completing mine.

[davidsinn]

Was he not allowed to do the mile run? You don't have to do both the mile run and the shuttle run, it's one or the other.

Usually cadets who have trouble with one can usually pass the other.

He was, but had concentrated his efforts on the shuttle run.

Right there is the problem.

I am very out of shape right now. I could work up to a halfway decent mile time in less than a month if I put my mind to it. I could not get a decent shuttle run time in a month because you can't beat physics. It take less effort to keep a fat body moving then it does to get that fat body to change directions repeatedly. (Note: fat body comments are referring to myself not your son  )

[Майор Хаткевич]

I agree on the Mile/w. Shuttle, but only at a certain point.

They would switch up a number of times over the phases.

In phase one, most of the cadets that were overweight passed with the shuttle.

In phase two, it is somewhat of a toss up.

Phase three the mile is harder to beat than lucking out with the shuttle.

In Phase Four it takes a special training program to make the shuttle work.

[jimmydeanno]

I appreciate the Shuttle Run as an alternative for us up in the North Country that end up having to test their cadets PT in sub-zero degree weather, in feet of snow.  30 feet is easily found in our meeting place.

My only contention with the shuttle run is the timing issue.  The results are down to the 1/10 of a second.  People can't push the stopwatch button that fast and if it takes you 1 or 2 tenths of a second to depress the button, the kid fails...

The level of accuracy required doesn't allow any flexibility at all.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I appreciate the Shuttle Run as an alternative for us up in the North Country that end up having to test their cadets PT in sub-zero degree weather, in feet of snow.  30 feet is easily found in our meeting place.

My only contention with the shuttle run is the timing issue.  The results are down to the 1/10 of a second.  People can't push the stopwatch button that fast and if it takes you 1 or 2 tenths of a second to depress the button, the kid fails...

The level of accuracy required doesn't allow any flexibility at all.

Beyond getting speed cameras, there is not much to do. It's a judgment call as it is based on the timers perception of when the cadet crosses the finish line.

I believe with a quick stop watch and good reaction time, the shuttle can be clocked in in as little as .06 seconds. Of course this was a SM at 22 years old. I'd start adding .03 seconds for each decade or so of age. 

And again, it comes down to how you start it as well. Do you start the clock when the cadet moves, or do you say "go" and cadet looses .1-.2 seconds in his reaction to movement?

Do you pass a Phase IV cadet with a 9.05 (9.0 needed) by writing it off as trigger lag?

[davidsinn]

Ya'll need to go volunteer to be a timer at a track meet. That'll teach you how to time running events. I had 4 years experience timing when I was in high school.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Ya'll need to go volunteer to be a timer at a track meet. That'll teach you how to time running events. I had 4 years experience timing when I was in high school.

How does a multi mile run compare with 120ft?

[jimmydeanno]

How does a multi mile run compare with 120ft?

Track meets usually don't have "multi-mile" runs.  100 meter, hurdles, etc.  All the events are (usually) timed down to the 1/100th of a second...

[Майор Хаткевич]

Track meets usually don't have "multi-mile" runs.  100 meter, hurdles, etc.  All the events are (usually) timed down to the 1/100th of a second...

My bad, I was thinking CC running.

But the point still stands that you are going off the performance of A, B, C, etc., not a set time.

If A ran a 9.13, you probably clocked a 9.17, or similar.

To go on a side rant: being physically fit and military service in the US: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=9260

[davidsinn]

Track meets usually don't have "multi-mile" runs.  100 meter, hurdles, etc.  All the events are (usually) timed down to the 1/100th of a second...

My bad, I was thinking CC running.

But the point still stands that you are going off the performance of A, B, C, etc., not a set time.

If A ran a 9.13, you probably clocked a 9.17, or similar.

To go on a side rant: being physically fit and military service in the US: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=9260

That's where the: send the adults to time at a track meet comes in. I was extremely accurate with a clock because I ran the clock for basketball and track for 4 years. It just takes a little practice to get it down.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Ok, so what do you do?

Do you clock it in a microsecond earlier?

Because that is the only way it would help in CAPs case.

[davidsinn]

Ok, so what do you do?

Do you clock it in a microsecond earlier?

Because that is the only way it would help in CAPs case.

You learn how much of a lag you have between seeing the event and pushing the button. Then you command a button push a few microseconds before the person hits the line so that they hit the line at the same time the command hits your finger and your finger reacts. It takes practice and being aware of yourself.

Also I wouldn't have the same person start them as times. That way the clock start reaction time and the cadet's reaction time should be about the same.