Integrity question

[Rosco P]

Some squadrons have parent involvement. However, how can you raise the question of integrity when the parents are the senior members, their kid is the cadet commander and you have some other parents\SM waiting in line for their kids to take over? Do you have that in your squadrons?? why does CAP allows that?

[a2capt]

"waiting in line".. as in a sense of entitlement? Most cadet/parent combo's I've know, their cadets have had it -harder- just to stay away from any appearance of nepotism.

As for "allowing" it, I wouldn't say there is anything that supports it, but you need to do two things. Document everything and be absolutely sure it's not just because you think "you" should have "xxx" position instead.

[Panache]

I'm in a squadron where the Cadet Commander is the Commander's son, and the Squadron CC has made it very very clear that there will be no special privileges for his son other than that which would normally be afforded a Cadet Captain and Cadet Commander, and if we ever get any disrespect from the Cadet Commander, to let him know and it will be handled.  (Not that the Cadet Commander has ever done so.)

I agree with a2capt, I think most go out of their way to avoid even a hint of nepotism.  That being said, I"m sure there are problem cases here and there.

[dwb]

Some squadrons have parent involvement. However, how can you raise the question of integrity when the parents are the senior members, their kid is the cadet commander and you have some other parents\SM waiting in line for their kids to take over? Do you have that in your squadrons?? why does CAP allows that?

Well, one way to handle this is to avoid a single decision maker for staff positions. Ultimately, every staff member serves at the discretion of the unit commander, but you can mitigate some of the conflicts of interest by using selection committees for staff positions, milestone promotions, etc. Use a variety of people for the selection committees, including people of no relation to the cadet. You can even use Group/Wing/Region staffers if you have any that live in your local area.

When I put committees together, I always pick as much variety as possible for the members. To give you a Wing-level example, when we selected our cadet of the year, the committee members came from all over the state, had all different backgrounds, had a 30+ year age range from the youngest to the oldest, and we included a mix of male and female officers. That's more difficult to do at the local level, but it's not impossible, especially if you have Group/Wing folks that live nearby.

A lot of people join CAP as a family, and there's nothing inherently wrong with that. The unit leadership just needs to be mindful of this, and account for it by recusing themselves in decisions that directly affect their kids, etc. It's not required by regulation per se, but it's a good idea.

Also, nobody should be "waiting in line" for staff appointments. No one is entitled to the C/CC position, and the culture of the unit should be such that the cadet staff selections are based on merit. This isn't a university, you don't get legacy preferences.

[MIKE]

I would rather see it regulated much like fraternization is in CAPR 52-16.  Mommy and Daddy can be members but can't hold command or staff positions which could give the appearance of favoritism or nepotism while their little angels are in the program.  CC, CDC, TCO etc.

[lordmonar]

I would rather see it regulated much like fraternization is in CAPR 52-16.  Mommy and Daddy can be members but can't hold command or staff positions which could give the appearance of favoritism or nepotism while there little angels are in the program.  CC, CDC, TCO etc.

Then the small units would not exist.

Secondly.....it is just CAP.....and cadet program at that.

[JeffDG]

I would rather see it regulated much like fraternization is in CAPR 52-16.  Mommy and Daddy can be members but can't hold command or staff positions which could give the appearance of favoritism or nepotism while their little angels are in the program.  CC, CDC, TCO etc.

So, you support limiting the careers of senior members who happen to recruit their children into the cadet program?

[Eclipse]

This is another higher HQ failing.

Good CCs will be good CCs regardless of who is under their command, and bad ones will be bad.

I've seen the "family units" that run roughshod over other members and cause people to quit, and
"family units" where everyone is held to the same standard and they are a credit and an asset to CAP.

In the former, it's able to continue because the next higher HQ has decided to allow it to happen / continue and
doesn't care, or doesn't have the where-with-all to intervene.

[lordmonar]

This is another higher HQ failing.

Good CCs will be good CCs regardless of who is under their command, and bad ones will be bad.

I've seen the "family units" that run roughshod over other members and cause people to quit, and
"family units" where everyone is held to the same standard and they are a credit and an asset to CAP.

In the former, it's able to continue because the next higher HQ has decided to allow it to happen / continue and
doesn't care, or doesn't have the where-with-all to intervene.

And that by extension is the problem with any unit that "goes off the reservation" be it on the ES, CP, uniform or what have you.

If higher HQ is not making periodic visits to the unit (not inspections!) and watching what is going on....then problems fester and turn into major problems.

But No.....there is no need for a regulation that says "SM X can't be the CC because of little Johnny is a cadet".

[Walkman]

Does your unit have term limits for c/CC? We have a policy from the previous CC that each c/CC serves a one year term to make sure the opportunity for leadership is available.

[a2capt]

Typical for us is 6-8 months or so for a Cadet Commander, and it works quite well, with school schedules and other commitments.

[HGjunkie]

If my new staff instructions are approved, my unit will be doing 1yr C/CC stints.

[Rosco P]

I totally agree with Mike it needs to be regulated and not open to interpretation. It is a human nature to provide protection and give the best position to our own kids. However in the process we tend to forget or ignore that there could be others that could do better job. Come on like I said it is human nature. If we have clear rules of engagement their very margin of error when it comes down to nepotism. Don't get me wrong there are some parent that are good to make a difference when they have a staff position. But what message do you give to the public when you said the cadet commander is the squadron commander son\daughter? or the activities officer prepare an FTX and his son/daughter is the cadet OIC?

[Eclipse]

But what message do you give to the public when you said the cadet commander is the squadron commander son\daughter? or the activities officer prepare an FTX and his son/daughter is the cadet OIC?

That after honest consideration they are the best candidate?

Are you discounting the possibility that with a Unit CC as their parent, a given cadet might be more ensconced and involved in CAP then the average
cadet whose parents don't even know what CAP is?

My wife is a committee member of my kids' Boy Scout troop.  They are much more involved, and more properly, then 1/2 the kids in
their troop because she takes the time to find out about the merit badge clinics, actually read the rules and regs, and is generally more
knowledgeable then most parents who are barely slowing down enough to let their kids out for the meeting.

She's also there for every meeting, which means so are they, and things like "following up and through" are accomplished.  It would be the same
case if I was a CAP unit CC and my kids were in the unit - I'm the most knowledgeable person in the room CAP-wise (in theory), and so I'm going to
hold my kids to the same expectations.  They should, by design, be the top-tier cadets of that unit.

Especially considering the volunteer paradigm, and how short-handed CAP units are across the board, anything that would artificially
limit participation would shoot CAP in the foot. 

"Why did the unit fold?  Didn't Jim want the job, and wasn't he a Spaatz and a Wing-level DCP with two commands under his belt?"

"Yeah, but his kids are in, and he didn't want to limit what they could do, so they just moved to another squadron..."

If there are integrity or nepotism issues, that's a command failing.  There are plenty of places the program needs more structure and
less gray, but this is just absolving higher HQ from doing their jobs.

[lordmonar]

I totally agree with Mike it needs to be regulated and not open to interpretation. It is a human nature to provide protection and give the best position to our own kids. However in the process we tend to forget or ignore that there could be others that could do better job. Come on like I said it is human nature. If we have clear rules of engagement their very margin of error when it comes down to nepotism. Don't get me wrong there are some parent that are good to make a difference when they have a staff position. But what message do you give to the public when you said the cadet commander is the squadron commander son\daughter? or the activities officer prepare an FTX and his son/daughter is the cadet OIC?

So.....how would that regulation read?

Capt Gooddad's son move up the ranks and is now in position to be the C/CC.  So do we say Capt Gooddad you got to step down from being commander or do we say Cadet Gooddad you can't be C/CC.....sorry that's the way it's got to be....because we just don't trust your dad to be fair.

The message we send to the community is that we try to put the best resource in the best position to give the best CP experience to everyone in the program.

Sure.....it does not work out that way.  But oversight it the answer not just some regulation.   It is hard enough to find good people to volunteer their time for this program.   Group and Wing should be monitoring all squadrons to make sure that they are doing the program as written and providing the best Cadet Program to all of their cadets....no matter who they are.

[/rant]

[MSG Mac]

In my experience the Cadet Staff is usually chosen by a review board that interviews each cadet for a position. The Command Staff is usually done by the DCC and the Senior Staff, Other staff members by the selected Command staff. Can there be a question of integrity when Mom or Dad is the Commander, certainly, but no more than a Wing King having his wife or children serving as Squadron Commanders or even being cadets under his command. I have even seen a Wing CC step down to be succeeded by his wife, unusual yes, lack of integrity? No. 

[Walkman]

If CC Dad just walks in one night and says "Hey, my son is the new c/CC" without any other process, yep that's a bad deal. BUT, if CC Dad is a good leader, involves a review board with other leaders & cadet staff and the child comes out as the best choice, then I've got no problems.

I would think that a good CC is going to have earned a reputation for doing this the right way and if their kid did end up in a leadership spot, people wouldn't automatically assume the worst.

[Rosco P]

It makes it worst when both parents are in CAP. I have see it and it does not look good. Specially other parents will join in expecting the same. If you ask me, only if you ask me....that is the wrong way to attract senior members, but it has happened before and it is still happening. Specially when parents get together and they think they know what CAP is all about. I can tell you that they rather be at CAP than the boys scouts and the reason is because they have their own personal agenda. I think that is the root of the issue and the integrity. How can you mentor a cadet when the parent has a either a higher rank or a staff position?? This is not about good commander or how hard the cadet get it. It is about a conflict of interest and proper training

[Eclipse]

It makes it worst when both parents are in CAP.

"Worse"? Seriously, what's your real issue here?

Now both parents aren't allowed to be in CAP either?

There's apparently no room for a family to work and play together, and actually be knowledgeable and capable?

This is not about good commander or how hard the cadet get it. It is about a conflict of interest and proper training

Which one is that again?

Another question?   How long have yo been in CAP and what's your scope of involvement?
Are you upset because of a specific situation related to someone you know personally?

Like any large organization, there are plenty of "klinkers", but these are the exceptions, not the rules.
I know far more one-off members who are useless or worse then families where the relationships caused issues.

[Walkman]

Sounds like that there was a bad experience with a couple that really ran roughshod over things. Not entirely inconceivable.

My wife has been thinking about joining off and on. She most likely will wait until she's finished with school or when our youngest son is old enough in a few years to become a cadet. I'm looking forward to sharing CAP with her.