Blaming younger cadets for being late

[NIN]

As was previously stated, in case you didn't read my comment Mr. Sir Person, THEN BAN ME.

In the words of the immortal Russell Ziskey

"You're makin' friends fast, John."

[Critical AOA]

All those who want to get in a kid's face for being late to an activity such as a CAP meeting has issues of their own which need addressed.  Some of you people need to get a grip.  If I were to personally witness some of the behavior described here, that senior member would soon be looking a man in the face, not a little kid.

[Garibaldi]

Not for nothing, but WIWAC, my father worked for AT&T. They have one of the strictest attendance policies of any company out there. The saying went "Early is on time, on time is late". It was drilled into my head when I was old enough to start doing things other than school, like baseball practice, concerts where I was playing, social events and the like. To this day I can't stand being "on time" to an event that's important to me.

As nutzi as I am about all things CAP and trying to impart my wisdom to a new generation, I realize that it's just impossible. I've corrected cadets' rank insignia only to find that they "forget" the next week and have it exactly the way I found it. When we go on SAREXES and GT training I tell them to be at the hangar 15 minutes before the time we leave, and they are still late. I see cadets waltzing into meetings halfway through opening formation and just...wander over to their flight and fall in. It's not really the fault of the cadet, but I believe the organization. Obviously getting in a cadet's face and yelling isn't going to solve the problem NOW, but perhaps finding the root cause like I believe some folks have suggested and finding a mutually beneficial solution would help.

I know that the first time I showed up late to an FTX for reasons that were not my fault (staying with mom for the weekend and she hadn't subscribed to dad's attendance mantra) and finding everyone gone, really set it in her head that MAYBE I need to get there earlier from now on, because instead of having a weekend to herself she was stuck with a petulant 14 year old who moaned and whined all weekend.

Just my two cent's worth.

[Eclipse]

All those who want to get in a kid's face for being late to an activity such as a CAP meeting has issues of their own which need addressed.  Some of you people need to get a grip.  If I were to personally witness some of the behavior described here, that senior member would soon be looking a man in the face, not a little kid.

What behavior?

Expecting a cadet to meet the high standard of being on time?

As above, show up to an FTX late, you may not go.

Show for an encampment after the gates are locked? Sorry, base rules.

Show for a military o ride after the plane has taxied? Can't help.

Academy test or NCSA board? Next.

Life does not wait because you have circumstance. This is a lesson we provide our members.

[Thrashed]

Sorry, but life doesn't revolve around CAP. People are busy. I'm busy. I'm the deputy commander and I take my kids. They got yelled at once for being late right in front of me. I told the cadet yelling at them, "I drove them, do you have a problem?" I work for a living and I get there when I get there. I do believe being on time is important, but it can't always be done, so relax.

[Eclipse]

Sorry, but life doesn't revolve around CAP. People are busy. I'm busy.

No one is saying it does / should.  Only that CAP doesn't wait for you, either.

Now, this issue of people being chastised in public, or worse, dressed down is separate.  It's one thing to make an off-handed comment
intended to make the point without making a big deal about it, but anything beyond that should handled directly but privately, especially
if its a chronic situation.

[PHall]

As was previously stated, in case you didn't read my comment Mr. Sir Person, THEN BAN ME.

I see his request was granted 

Not bad, went from joining to banned in less then 12 hours.

[RogueLeader]

As was previously stated, in case you didn't read my comment Mr. Sir Person, THEN BAN ME.

I see his request was granted 

Not bad, went from joining to banned in less then 12 hours.

3 hours and 17 min.  Probably a captalk record.

[Garibaldi]

As was previously stated, in case you didn't read my comment Mr. Sir Person, THEN BAN ME.

I see his request was granted 

Not bad, went from joining to banned in less then 12 hours.

3 hours and 17 min.  Probably a captalk record.

who was that masked man?

[AngelWings]

As was previously stated, in case you didn't read my comment Mr. Sir Person, THEN BAN ME.

I see his request was granted 

Yup. I think that was the only Christmas gift he is getting this year besides coal based on his attitude.

[SarDragon]

Since Mr Chowdah-head is gone, we probably ought to get back on topic before a "Mike Strike" gets called in. 

[Nathan]

I should get SOME recognition for creating a thread so controversial that it got a guy banned within hours of joining the fray. 

Sorry, but life doesn't revolve around CAP. People are busy. I'm busy.

No one is saying it does / should.  Only that CAP doesn't wait for you, either.

I'm seeing both sides of the argument, and I think it has to do with the difference between what SHOULD happen, and what CAN happen.

What SHOULD happen is that all cadets should be arriving on time for meetings. The commander has a schedule to fill and credits to meet, and in order to fulfill these criteria, cadets need to be present. Not only that, but cadets who show up late set the precedent that it's okay to show up late, so maybe one day a normally punctual cadet will decide to finish his television show, since apparently no one cares if anyone shows up ten minutes late. That's a problem.

On the other hand, unless a cadet is driving him/herself, there may not be much we can ACTUALLY do to fix this problem. If the parent can't be there on time, then that's simply the way it is, and unless we intend to kick the cadet out (which would be ridiculous), then we have to find another solution.

Which, by the way, almost always exists. However, the normal cadet staff method of handling the problem is asking why the cadet is late, then accepting no other answer than "no excuse." Don't be that guy. Here's a better option:

1) Talk with the cadet first, and figure out why he/she is late. If the cadet is the problem, then try to solve it here. If you can't, then it's indicative of larger motivational problems.

2) If the cadet isn't responsible, talk to the parents, with the same intent. If the parents simply aren't getting out the door on time, then explaining the importance of punctuality and the meeting activities might be all it takes for the parents to leave ten minutes earlier. If there are unresolvable scheduling issues, however, then you can try moving on to step three.

3) If the parent cannot get there any earlier, then you as the commander (or a delegate) can try to work out the issue yourself. Are there any other cadets or parents who live close who might be able to pick the cadet up at an earlier time?

4) If this isn't possible, then the only options that involve the cadet not failing the program due to circumstances outside his/her control are to change the meeting format. This can include starting at a later time, scheduling non-essential activities at the beginning of the meetings, moving meeting nights, or opening the building for a few hours every other weekend so that cadets can optionally come make-up tests, study, practice their drill, or whatever.

To answer my own question, nine times out of ten, a cadet who bothers to show up for a meeting is doing so because he/she WANTS to be there, and isn't missing out on purpose. I have no problems holding cadets responsible for the things they can control, but when we start holding them responsible for the things they can't control, then we're only going to end up frustrating them.

[Garibaldi]

I should get SOME recognition for creating a thread so controversial that it got a guy banned within hours of joining the fray. 

You are hereby awarded the CAPTalk Thread Award with propeller clasp.

[RogueLeader]

However, the normal cadet staff method of handling the problem is asking why the cadet is late, then accepting no other answer than "no excuse."

I can not stand it when somebody tells me "no excuse, sir!"

[PA Guy]

I can not stand it when somebody tells me "no excuse, sir!"

+1.  That response drives me up a wall.

[Major Lord]

A common leadership thinking error is failing to distinguish between "fault" and "responsibility" . If I am walking along and get struck by a metorite, whining about it not being my "fault" is just rationalization. Having that 2000 degree chunk of stone perforate my body is sure as heck, my responsibility. Holding Cadet's responsible is a separable issue from finding them at fault.

Major Lord
FYI, "No excuse" is code for "Pound sand".

[Eclipse]

+1

The high points from two good articles this week from AoM (good information there regardless of gender):

Why Is Being Punctual Important?

"I have always been a quarter of an hour before my time, and it has made a man of me." -Horatio, Lord Nelson

• Being punctual strengthens and reveals your integrity.
  
  Being punctual shows you are dependable.
  
  Being punctual builds your self-confidence.
  
  Being punctual assures you're at your best.
  
  Being punctual builds and reveals your discipline.
  
  Being punctual shows your humility.
  
  Being punctual shows your respect for others.
  
  Being late is a form of stealing.
  
  Being late disturbs the experiences of other people.
  
  Being late strains your relationships.
  
  Being late hurts your professional career.
  
  Being late takes a toll on your life.

http://artofmanliness.com/2012/07/16/a-man-is-punctual-the-importance-of-being-on-time/
http://artofmanliness.com/2012/07/18/a-man-is-punctual-the-reasons-youre-late-and-how-to-always-be-on-time/

[AngelWings]

However, the normal cadet staff method of handling the problem is asking why the cadet is late, then accepting no other answer than "no excuse."

I can not stand it when somebody tells me "no excuse, sir!"

It's a response from the poor leadership guidance I've seen people take home from environments where such response is the only accepted one for training reasons IE basic training or encampment. It is extremely poor and serves no purpose.

[RogueLeader]

However, the normal cadet staff method of handling the problem is asking why the cadet is late, then accepting no other answer than "no excuse."

I can not stand it when somebody tells me "no excuse, sir!"

It's a response from the poor leadership guidance I've seen people take home from environments where such response is the only accepted one for training reasons IE basic training or encampment. It is extremely poor and serves no purpose.

Just say I don't care, or I'm too lazy to do it right.  Those are reasons, not excuses.  I want reasons.

[AngelWings]

However, the normal cadet staff method of handling the problem is asking why the cadet is late, then accepting no other answer than "no excuse."

I can not stand it when somebody tells me "no excuse, sir!"

It's a response from the poor leadership guidance I've seen people take home from environments where such response is the only accepted one for training reasons IE basic training or encampment. It is extremely poor and serves no purpose.

Just say I don't care, or I'm too lazy to do it right.  Those are reasons, not excuses.  I want reasons.

Some leadership trains their cadets that saying anything other than that is unacceptable and that saying no excuse is the only correct answer. It's the leadership training cadets to make them not have an answer so things go by quicker, so the cadet feels like they did something bad, and so the leadership doesn't have to do anything.