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National Must be Joking, Right?

Started by manfredvonrichthofen, October 16, 2010, 05:02:56 PM

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manfredvonrichthofen

From CAP Safety Newsletter, "The Safety Beacon"
During the Winter National Board of Civil Air Patrol held in February 2010, at Washington D.C., a safety summit was held where commanders of CAP were asked in an open floor forum, "Where is the next mishap going to occur in CAP?" The responses were:
Prediction
Number of Occurrences since the prediction Cadet Injury - Unsupervised Physical Activity >1
CPFT Injury (3X)
10+ Cadet Injury at Basic Encampment (3X) 10+
Cadet Injury at a Cadet Activity (2X)
10+ Cadet Fall on Ice >2
Bodily Injury at this Activity (SM) (2X)
1 SM Fall on Ice >1
Cadet Blisters
10+ If
We Do our Job - ZERO Still waiting

Does the NB really think that putting a safety committee together and ask them to make predictions is going to stop accidents or injuries? What they fail to see, is that no matter what there is always the potential for injury and accidents to happen. It is just the nature of being human. However, we should still remain safety conscious at all times, That does prevent most injuries and accidents. However No matter what if you are safety conscious 100% of the time you will not be able to prevent ALL accidents and injuries. It is just not possible. It doesn't matter if it is at the regular CAP weekly meeting taking a test. A chair could have a structural failure and the cadet could bash his/her head on the concrete floor, it doesn't matter where, injury has the potential to happen no matter how safety conscious you are.
PVT MURPHY'S LAW!

tsrup

It's not a bad idea.  I mean the content for our safety briefings has to come from somewhere.  If they get together and figure out what our biggest or next safety concern is they should address it. 
If one person avoids slipping on the ice as a direct relation to something that was covered in a safety briefing then it's done it's job. 

I don't think anyone is asking National to be oracles and predict the future, just make an educated guess of what is likely to happen.

It's a proactive response to a topic that in the past has been largely reactive.
Paramedic
hang-around.

manfredvonrichthofen

But to say that if they make these predictions, and they do their job, then we will have ZERO accidents is going way too far. There is no way to prevent all accidents short of not letting any members off the couch for the whole year. Oh, wait then we get bed sores, well there went the ZERO accident goal. I agree we should shoot for zero, but to say that if there is one, ONE accident then no one is doing their job is insulting.

bosshawk

Being of a mind to present blunt facts, I would suggest that if we are serious about eliminating at least 75% of our safety incidents, we should shut down the cadet program.  That is where we have the most safety incidents.
Paul M. Reed
Col, USA(ret)
Former CAP Lt Col
Wilson #2777

BillB

The safety briefings must be working. Florida Wing has never had an accident of a cadet or senior slipping on ice.
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104

James Shaw

#5
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on October 16, 2010, 05:02:56 PM
Does the NB really think that putting a safety committee together and ask them to make predictions is going to stop accidents or injuries?

As someone who has worked in Environmetal Safety & Health for the past 25 years I would have to say Yes!!

There are always certain trends that can be identified through these types of groups. This of course will depend on the group and some of there backgrounds. It is not a prediciton persay but a statistical probability that an event will occur based on the inputed data. It is a very good way to try and be proactive in keeping people safe. Can it stop accidents "No" but it can help identify the probability of where some of them can be prevented. Nothing can stop an accident as long as "humans" are involved.

I think it is a great thing to do and would be interested in seeing the info myself. I have done these types of things for many years and the return far outweighs the cost. I would have to commend National about this. When I get emails from Gen Courter the first thing that is in her signature is "Keep Safety First". They set the expectation and bar high and we work towards it.


Quote from: tsrup on October 16, 2010, 05:16:56 PM
It's a proactive response to a topic that in the past has been largely reactive.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Quote from: BillB on October 16, 2010, 05:32:36 PM
The safety briefings must be working. Florida Wing has never had an accident of a cadet or senior slipping on ice.

Ok I have had my limit I am coming to Florida and hitting you with a block of ice.  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Jim Shaw
USN: 1987-1992
GANG: 1996-1998
CAP:2000 - Current
USCGA:2018 - Current
SGAUS: 2017 - Current

manfredvonrichthofen

Quote from: caphistorian on October 16, 2010, 05:36:32 PM
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on October 16, 2010, 05:02:56 PM
Does the NB really think that putting a safety committee together and ask them to make predictions is going to stop accidents or injuries?
As someone who has worked in Environmetal Safety & Health for the past 25 years I would have to say Yes!!

So your saying that if we are doing our jobs then no one will get hurt. While at the same time if ONE person gets hurt then we aren't doing our jobs?

Who in their right mind would want to get rid of the Cadet Program? If you don't want to worry about the cadets and work with them, then you should either get out of CAP completely, or transfer to an all Senior Squadron! So long as humans are involved, you are right, so long as humans are involved there will be accidents and injuries. So how can they say that if we are doing our job no one will get hurt? There will always be at least one person hurt a year. If there ever goes a year where there are no injuries reported, it is because no one reported them.

Flying Pig

I just fell out of my chair reading all of this.  Does that count as an injury? >:D


HGjunkie

Quote from: Flying Pig on October 16, 2010, 06:43:25 PM
I just fell out of my chair reading all of this.  Does that count as an injury? >:D
Only if you got rugburn...  :angel:
••• retired
2d Lt USAF

EMT-83

Quote from: BillB on October 16, 2010, 05:32:36 PM
The safety briefings must be working. Florida Wing has never had an accident of a cadet or senior slipping on ice.
Not even when frozen adult beverages were involved? Are you sure?

James Shaw

Never said to eliminate anything especially Cadet Programs.

Most root cause analysis indicate that 95% of incidents and accidents are "personal accountability".

The focus has to be the people, the system is there as a guide to support the people.

If one of my co-workers gets injured I feel like I have failed in my job. If the root cause comes back to them then I feel they have failed at theirs.

I personally feel that anyone in the safety track should be in the safety field outside of CAP.
Jim Shaw
USN: 1987-1992
GANG: 1996-1998
CAP:2000 - Current
USCGA:2018 - Current
SGAUS: 2017 - Current

Chappie

Suggesting that NHQ increase its budget to supply each unit with adequate rolls of bubble wrap to encase the membership to prevent bodily injuries.  ::)
Disclaimer:  Not to be confused with the other user that goes by "Chappy"   :)

bosshawk

Chappy: maybe NHQ could pay for rubber rooms for everyone, like most of CA seems to favor.
Paul M. Reed
Col, USA(ret)
Former CAP Lt Col
Wilson #2777

manfredvonrichthofen

Safety is a really big issue, especially in CAP with the ES mission, we all know that. The only problem is that some people think that safety is the answer to everything or they think it should be our only mission. I am definitely all in favor of the idea of putting a cadet in each squadron into the safety officer assistant role, that makes it to where the cadets get a better view of the aspects of safety and how it pertains to CAP. The thing that we don't need is National telling us that we aren't doing our job. Everyone that I have come across in CAP is very safety conscious and on the lookout for things that are unsafe and hazardous. National seems to think that if we are doing our job then no one would get hurt, but because there are people getting hurt then that means that no one is doing their job. We face safety every day in CAP, for some reason National doesn't realize that we face it at every meeting and activity and that we do everything we can to mitigate hazards and potential safety threats, and that we really do everything that we can to keep everyone safe and healthy. There are just some things that cannot be avoided.

JC004

Cadet blisters?  Seriously?  If they do their jobs, nobody will get blisters? 

This is the same rubbish as that which spawned the thread about the cadet who was attacked by the tree root.  Accidents...will...happen.  Their job is to reduce them as much as possible and to minimize their impact. 

People will not take the safety mandates, newsletters, memos and such seriously if they aren't in sync with reality. 

Nobody thinks (except maybe National?) that they'll be able to prevent every blister nationwide.  So people will read this sort of thing and think "yeah, whatever..."

JeffDG

So long as people accept that zero accidents is not possible, accidents will occur.  A change in attitude is necessary where people accept that zero is not only possible, but the only acceptable situation.

manfredvonrichthofen

Quote from: JeffDG on October 17, 2010, 01:14:27 AM
So long as people accept that zero accidents is not possible, accidents will occur.  A change in attitude is necessary where people accept that zero is not only possible, but the only acceptable situation.

Those who think that ALL accidents can be prevented needs to check back into reality. So i take it you have never had a cut or broken bone or rash sprained ankle twisted ankle sore knees or any thing? Not even a paper cut?

FlyTiger77

Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on October 17, 2010, 01:28:33 AM
Quote from: JeffDG on October 17, 2010, 01:14:27 AM
So long as people accept that zero accidents is not possible, accidents will occur.  A change in attitude is necessary where people accept that zero is not only possible, but the only acceptable situation.

Those who think that ALL accidents can be prevented needs to check back into reality. So i take it you have never had a cut or broken bone or rash sprained ankle twisted ankle sore knees or any thing? Not even a paper cut?

As one who is firmly rooted in reality, I think the point would be better stated as: "With proper forethought, the circumstances leading to the cut, broken bone, rash (is that really a safety issue?), sprained ankle, twisted ankle, etc,. may have been avoided and it is worth the effort to learn to avoid those circumstances as much as possible."
JACK E. MULLINAX II, Lt Col, CAP

manfredvonrichthofen

Yes, avoid them as much as possible, yet no matter how hard you try to avoid them, there is still the possibility that it will happen.

SarDragon

NJ DMV used to (and still may) put a sentence on the back of the inspection stickers, visible and readable from the inside - "Accidents don't happen; they are caused."

I believed that to be true then; I still do. Weather events happen. Earthquakes happen. Neither are preventable. Almost all accidents have a determined, preventable cause. Somewhere along the way, something could have been done differently to prevent the accident.

CAP, and other organizations, practice ORM in an effort to improve safety and prevent accidents. Almost everything we do has risk involved. Evaluating that risk, and taking measures to reduce it, improve our ability to operate safely.

Cadet trips on tree root - he needs to pay better attention to where he's putting his feet. Senior member gets stung by a bee - he needs to stay farther from the bees, and not annoy them. Big-ass geese fly into your engines and cause both to flame out - that's a tough one to figure out. But, I think most accidents are preventable.

YMMV.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

HGjunkie

Quote from: SarDragon on October 17, 2010, 02:47:21 AM
... Big-ass geese fly into your engines and cause both to flame out - that's a tough one to figure out.
Gotta keep your head on a swivel for the geese!
••• retired
2d Lt USAF

RiverAux

I don't think that it is necessarily a bad thing to have a goal that in all reality might not be realized. 

Think about it this way -- What if an official goal of CAP was to find every single missing aircraft we are tasked with searching for?  We will never achieve this goal.  Does that mean that all the training and time we spend on trying to reach it is wasted?  That the effort made to figure out better ways to find planes is not worth it? 

Are such pie in the sky goals realistic?  Of course not.  But think of the alternative....

Lets say that CAP sets a goal of no more than 1 physical injury accident per 10,000 members per year.  That is really just as random as a goal of 0 accidents per year.  If we started to look bad by not coming anywhere near that goal, we'd just change the goal to something that we can reach. 

What really matters in situations like this isn't the goal, but the metric used to measure progress towards it.

Are accident rates declining or rising?  Are we only finding 90% of missing airplanes within 7 days, but that rate is rising over 10 years? 

The goals just tell you where you're trying to go, but the metrics actually tell you how you're doing. 

JeffDG

Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on October 17, 2010, 01:28:33 AM
Quote from: JeffDG on October 17, 2010, 01:14:27 AM
So long as people accept that zero accidents is not possible, accidents will occur.  A change in attitude is necessary where people accept that zero is not only possible, but the only acceptable situation.

Those who think that ALL accidents can be prevented needs to check back into reality. So i take it you have never had a cut or broken bone or rash sprained ankle twisted ankle sore knees or any thing? Not even a paper cut?

Take a look at the accidents that occur.  Please let me know the ones that could not have been prevented with better planning and some care taken.

As soon as you have the attitude "Oh, accidents happen", you stop bothering to try and prevent them.  Accidents happen because people don't prevent them.

Al Sayre

Quote from: SarDragon on October 17, 2010, 02:47:21 AM
Big-ass geese fly into your engines and cause both to flame out - that's a tough one to figure out.

Not a problem  - Open season on geese   ;D
Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
GRW #2787

ZigZag911

Many accidents happen in the cadet program for the same reason as anywhere else: lack of planning, as well as poor supervision.

A concrete example (from about 7-8 years ago): cadet gets hurt testing for mile run, fell on the gravel road (full of potholes) outside squadron meeting place, serious cuts & abrasions to knee, hands and arm...I think the knee needed a couple of stitches.

This was during their weekly unit meeting, at a time of year when there was very little light outdoors by the time their meeting started.

Supervision was the cadet commander and a cadet sponsor (a cadet's dad, as I recall) with little experience of the program.

Their town had excellent high school athletic fields and public recreation areas within about 2 miles of the meeting place...a quick ride in the CAP van assigned to the squadron (of course, this would have required a full senior member as driver, but then I felt that should have been the case to begin with).

I knew the area well, because the squadron I belonged to as a cadet (different charter, Had moved elsewhere over the years) met there in the 70s.

Also, I was their group CC, and we shared the same meeting place (different nights).

I was unimpressed with the situation and how it was handled!

Eclipse

Every '78 I've seen this year was avoidable.

Avoidable mishaps are unacceptable.  Period.

"That Others May Zoom"

James Shaw

Quote from: Eclipse on October 17, 2010, 04:20:39 PM
Avoidable mishaps are unacceptable.  Period.

Completly agree!

I look at any safety situation as if the people involved were my children. How would I feel if one of my children were injured because of someone else's mistakes. I think it hits home more when you think about it that way.

How would you feel if this were your child?
How would you feel if this were your vehicle?
How would you feel if this were your squadron?

How would you feel if you caused it?

I have 120 (children/operators) I am responsible for.
Jim Shaw
USN: 1987-1992
GANG: 1996-1998
CAP:2000 - Current
USCGA:2018 - Current
SGAUS: 2017 - Current

BillB

WOW Jim, you really rack upo the cards on Fathers Day.
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104

James Shaw

Quote from: BillB on October 17, 2010, 05:35:57 PM
WOW Jim, you really rack upo the cards on Fathers Day.

About half of it is hate mail Bill. But that would be scary wouldnt it. About 120 Jim jr's running around.
Jim Shaw
USN: 1987-1992
GANG: 1996-1998
CAP:2000 - Current
USCGA:2018 - Current
SGAUS: 2017 - Current

RADIOMAN015

#29
Quote from: Eclipse on October 17, 2010, 04:20:39 PM
Every '78 I've seen this year was avoidable.

Avoidable mishaps are unacceptable.  Period.
So have you given those members the firing squad yet OR are they basically just paying out their hard earned money for being a dedicated volunteer and having the misfortune of having an accident ??? OR being tongue lashed with command criticism (as if the senior member wasn't upset because this did happen) for having a cadet that gets injured >:D

Well unfortunately with the human element there's always going to be some accidents & some injuries.  Surely in retrospect its' very easy to say that some of these accidents MAY have been avoided.    When the average unit only has about 30% of their so called active senior members showing up to meetings, it's sometimes difficult to get someone fully qualified to supervise anything & there's also the overall fatigue factor if one has been working all day -- mistakes can be made.  However, volunteers do try their best, even with the limitation they may have.   There's a vast difference between accidents/injuries caused by a member's co mission versus omission.

HOWEVER, I do agree that our accident/injury statistical experience should be an indicator of the types of safety briefings and overall oversight we need to encourage the membership to achieve.

Perhaps the National HQ paid staffer could come up with fully developed briefing materials we can use at the squadron level that address the specific statistical problems.  Also standard risk management worksheets could pretty much be developed for everything we do in CAP, offering the accident/injury prone membership & so called inept supervisors more of a "guiding light" to prevention.
RM 

Eclipse

#30
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on October 17, 2010, 08:25:03 PMSo have you given those members the firing squad yet OR are they basically just paying out their hard earned money for being a dedicated volunteer and having the misfortune of having an accident OR being tongue lashed with command criticism (as if the senior member wasn't upset because this did happen) for having a cadet that gets injured.

Well unfortunately with the human element there's always going to be some accidents & some injuries.  Surely in retrospect its' very easy to say that some of these accidents MAY have been avoided.    When the average unit only has about 30% of their so called active senior members showing up to meetings, it's sometimes difficult to get someone fully qualified to supervise anything & there's also the overall fatigue factor if one has been working all day -- mistakes can be made.  However, volunteers do try their best, even with the limitation they may have.   There's a vast difference between accidents/injuries caused by a member's co mission versus omission.

What would you suggest when someone inflicts thousands of dollars and downtime on a corporate aircraft or wrecks a CAP van?

There is no such thing as an "accident", which is one of the reasons most organizations have stopped using that word.
Being a volunteer has no bearing on the consequences, any more than if you break my power drill when you borrow it, you're
responsible for repairing it.  In fact, considering that our organization stresses professionalism and our "toys" are provided to
protect life and property the bar of behavior should be higher.

What you have is human error, negligence, and the occasional force majeure.

Human error can never be fully eliminated, however ORM and preparation can minimize the impact when it occurs.

Negligence is 100% unacceptable.  Hanger rash is 100% preventable, as is damage to ground vehicles when
members are in a hurray, not paying attention, or choose to do inadvisable things. Back up without a spotter,
take out the tires on a spike strip, or ignore the oil light and suffer the consequences.

Cadet mishaps are almost always due to poor planning or supervision.  Playing football in boots, running in a wet
locker room, or my favorite this year "falling in to a wall" (with such force as to put a cadet-sized hole in it.  No idea
what was going on in there, but I promise you it was not a cadet walking to class without someone else "assisting"
him into that wall).  Someone keeping a closer eye, or saying "knock it off" could have prevented those situations.

Force majeure is generally unavoidable and arguably unforeseen, but in all but the most extreme cases can be mitigated with preparation.  CAP aircraft ripped off the tie-downs by a tornado?  Could the plane have been moved before the storm?  Better tie-downs?
"Sudden" downpour causes flooding at a bivouac. Who was watching the weather, etc.

I have no particular love for all the check boxes and reporting, either, but the reality is that in some units the only safety program at all is
those same reports and check boxes, and in some cases the people who make the most noise about the issue are the same ones who
really need the training.


"That Others May Zoom"

arajca

Having read the article, the way it is being presented by National demonstrates a lack of understanding or appreciation of safety trends by National. Instead of presenting this as a lottery, it should been presented as a trend analysis with a prediction by National and a challange to the wing cc's to prove them wrong.

JC004

Hindsight is 20/20 and preventing 100% of accidents is so very easily talked about, so less easily done.  "If only I..."

If I had left 5 minutes earlier, I wouldn't have got hit by that crazy driver.  If that cadet had simply walked down the other path, perhaps she wouldn't have been the victim of the vicious tree root attack.  If we hadn't been so mean and made the cadets walk so much, that cadet might not have got that blister...

Some of these things you prevent - preferably the most nasty things on your ORM matrix.  That's why you scale the potential safety hazards.  Maybe the cadet fell on the golf ball because you decided to walk through the open area instead of the boulder field.  Maybe nobody would have got hurt in the boulder field, but you sized up your risks and decided to do something different.  Of course the accident could have been prevented altogether by simply walking nowhere and staying in your bubble (unless the building catches on fire due to a preventable electrical fire).

ZigZag911

There is a big difference between hindsight and foresight.

We're supposed to exercise due diligence, which means basically using two tools: ORM and common sense.

Accidents happen; if it's apparently 'just one of those things' -- in spite of reasonable efforts to maintain a safe environment -- you review the event for lessons learned, see if something was missed despite good intentions.

If there is negligence, recklessness, or a 'cowboy attitude', you're darn right the individuals responsible are going to hear about it and probably face consequences.

Remember: the folks that got hurt (or worse) paid their dues, dedicated their time to CAP, have families too!!!

A CAP commander's goal should be to send all his people home in the same health they arrived!

JC004

I'm talking about listing <blank> incidents in the newsletter or saying <this long list> of accidents all could have been prevented.  It's hindsight.  Monday morning quarterbacking.  Maybe Joe should have been driving instead but Sam has been driving for a long time and he hasn't ever caused an accident - he has even cleverly avoided some caused by others but today it would have been safer if Joe had been driving...now that the accident is over.

Eclipse

I'm not sure where your issue is.   The majority of the incident they have been publishing have been preventable, and many are just lights-out moments.

"That Others May Zoom"


SarDragon

ORM is a circular process. Here's the CAP version:

1. Identify the Hazards
2. Assess the Risks
3. Analyze Risk Control Measures
4. Make Control Decisions
5. Implement Risk Controls
6. Supervise and Review

My emphasis. That's where it becomes circular. The review of what went wrong the last time is key to making the process work.

Example - Joey Bagodonuts tripped on a tree root and hurt himself. Why? - because the area might not have been checked prior to the activity, or (more likely) Joey wasn't paying close enough attention to where he was going.

Solution(s) - Check the area (when possible, depending the nature of the activity) prior to turning the masses loose, and brief the masses about the possible hazards, like tree roots, and emphasize the need to watch where you are going.

Simply, add the results of the review to the Identify the Hazards segment the next time around.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

JC004

I looked at a whole bunch of reports when I was working on the idea of online safety issue tracking (before NHQ came out with theirs).  I'd say that in theory probably 100% of the issues were preventable.  In reality, that was with the benefit of hindsight. 

If I had the benefit of telling the future in the stock market, I wouldn't have to work.  I could look at charts and know exactly when to buy and exactly when to sell.  In reality, I have to make an educated guess that is essentially exactly the same as doing ORM.  I'm making a calculated risk and deciding when to buy or sell based on my analysis.  It so happened that my picks recently were 5-figure winners.  A major corporate scandal or new government regulation could have derailed that.

I made a calculated risk to hike Upper Yosemite Falls trail.  It's a pretty serious trail.  I took my supplies and such.  I slipped a couple of times.  I could have fallen down the mountain.  Maybe it would have been prevented if I either didn't hike it or if I had ropes attached to me at all times.  A rock slide could have happened.  The signs warned me about that.  In theory, if that had happened, the injury would have been preventable.  It's pretty likely that a rock slide could happen to a ground team. 

Blisters are mentioned here.  I can't possibly believe that 100% of all blisters could be prevented in reality.  The unfortunate attack of the tree root was preventable in hindsight.  What was suggested to us to prevent a tree root attack was silly.  CAP is to make calculated risks based on the ORM process and move on. 

EMT-83

Folks are using the term "national" as if there is some faceless robot somewhere cranking out material. In reality, there are a handful of people trying to analyze data and present it in a format that doesn't require a Master rating in safety to understand. Occasionally, they miss the mark and write something totally off the wall.

If you have a real problem with something that's been published, how about taking some constructive action and getting in touch with someone at "national" who is responsible for the content. One such person is Frank Jirik, who can be reached at ext. 232 or via email at FJirik@capnhq.gov. Frank is a reasonable guy, who has been able to offer explanations where I disagreed with material published. He's very passionate about his work, and really isn't a faceless robot.

Eclipse

Quote from: JC004 on October 18, 2010, 11:04:24 PMBlisters are mentioned here.  I can't possibly believe that 100% of all blisters could be prevented in reality.

In a CAP context there is no reason for blisters - we don't do forced marches or 72-hour hikes.

Properly fitting shoes / boots, correct foot care, and going home before the blister makes them preventable.
The problem with this particular issue, and many others, is a "tough it out" cadet attitude.

I've done it to myself - new / cool jump boots, worn a few times before encampment - beautifully shined with the blood spewing from my feet. 

Obviously we could micro-hindsight every risk, but we also have to look at CAP risks, which don't rarely include climbing and always should
include the real possibility of saying "not today".

I have seen far too many ORM forms that "shaped" the numbers to insure you could do the sortie.

"That Others May Zoom"

DakRadz

^^^ on the boots.

Also, there is a rather large difference between two hours a week and all day boot wear.

I didn't know mine were too small until day 2 of encampment. Limped my way to Honor Cadet.

Eclipse

^ That's for sure, and despite weeks / months of warning, nearly every year we have cadets buying new boots on the way to encampment or asking for NAVEx access for boots.   ::)

"That Others May Zoom"

Hawk200

Quote from: JeffDG on October 17, 2010, 01:14:27 AMSo long as people accept that zero accidents is not possible, accidents will occur.  A change in attitude is necessary where people accept that zero is not only possible, but the only acceptable situation.
I wouldn't accept that as realistic. We know that accidents will happen, that zero is an impossible reality. We can make a goal of zero accidents, and done properly will result in fewer accidents.

Risk mitigation lowers the possibility of accidents, it doesn't remove risk or eliminate accidents altogether.

Eclipse

Six Sigma isn't really attainable, either, but that hasn't stopped thousands of business's from pursuing zero defects.

"That Others May Zoom"

manfredvonrichthofen

Quote from: Hawk200 on October 21, 2010, 04:50:09 PM
Quote from: JeffDG on October 17, 2010, 01:14:27 AMSo long as people accept that zero accidents is not possible, accidents will occur.  A change in attitude is necessary where people accept that zero is not only possible, but the only acceptable situation.
I wouldn't accept that as realistic. We know that accidents will happen, that zero is an impossible reality. We can make a goal of zero accidents, and done properly will result in fewer accidents.

Risk mitigation lowers the possibility of accidents, it doesn't remove risk or eliminate accidents altogether.

Thank you. You can only mitigate risk so much, you can do everything within your power to drop the risk to zero, but if you do your paper work with a zero risk level either you are fudging your risk level like crazy or you are performing with only one cadet and two senior members in a padded room with no tables and chairs. You should always shoot for zero injuries/accidents but to say that if there is ONE then no one is doing their job is really insulting. That is what they said in their projection of the years accidents, If we do our job then there will be zero.

JeffDG

Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on October 22, 2010, 04:02:23 AM
Quote from: Hawk200 on October 21, 2010, 04:50:09 PM
Quote from: JeffDG on October 17, 2010, 01:14:27 AMSo long as people accept that zero accidents is not possible, accidents will occur.  A change in attitude is necessary where people accept that zero is not only possible, but the only acceptable situation.
I wouldn't accept that as realistic. We know that accidents will happen, that zero is an impossible reality. We can make a goal of zero accidents, and done properly will result in fewer accidents.

Risk mitigation lowers the possibility of accidents, it doesn't remove risk or eliminate accidents altogether.

Thank you. You can only mitigate risk so much, you can do everything within your power to drop the risk to zero, but if you do your paper work with a zero risk level either you are fudging your risk level like crazy or you are performing with only one cadet and two senior members in a padded room with no tables and chairs. You should always shoot for zero injuries/accidents but to say that if there is ONE then no one is doing their job is really insulting. That is what they said in their projection of the years accidents, If we do our job then there will be zero.
So, what is an acceptable level of risk?  How many cadet injuries are you willing to accept?  "Sorry, Mrs. Snuffy.  We haven't had many injuries this year, so I guess it was just Cadet Snuffy's turn."

manfredvonrichthofen

Quote from: JeffDG on October 22, 2010, 12:23:16 PM
So, what is an acceptable level of risk?  How many cadet injuries are you willing to accept?  "Sorry, Mrs. Snuffy.  We haven't had many injuries this year, so I guess it was just Cadet Snuffy's turn."

No, that is just insensitive, I don't know how you do things, but the rest of the world uses tact and common sense along with reality. You say something along the lines of, "I'm sorry Ma'am, we do the best we can to mitigate risk. We do our best, but sometimes the risk is still there."

James Shaw

A lot or people think it is easy to just tell someone why their loved one was injured. There are ways to do this that can help mitigate some harsh reactions. But you cannot control their reactions. Talking to someone about any kind of injury or accident really takes "feedback" training that most people simply have not been trained to do. It goes beyond courtesy or common sense. Safety feedback is not like talking to a parent at the local meeting, there are real methods to use. You have certain things you should say and not say.

I would even go so far as to suggest that someone trained in CISM take care of this type of situation.

You cannot make everything full proof, because sometimes fools design it. JS
Jim Shaw
USN: 1987-1992
GANG: 1996-1998
CAP:2000 - Current
USCGA:2018 - Current
SGAUS: 2017 - Current

JeffDG

Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on October 22, 2010, 12:29:09 PM
Quote from: JeffDG on October 22, 2010, 12:23:16 PM
So, what is an acceptable level of risk?  How many cadet injuries are you willing to accept?  "Sorry, Mrs. Snuffy.  We haven't had many injuries this year, so I guess it was just Cadet Snuffy's turn."

No, that is just insensitive, I don't know how you do things, but the rest of the world uses tact and common sense along with reality. You say something along the lines of, "I'm sorry Ma'am, we do the best we can to mitigate risk. We do our best, but sometimes the risk is still there."

OK, but what is your acceptable level of risk?  How many cadet injuries are acceptable to you?  Do you inform parents of what the number of acceptable injuries is?

Hawk200

Quote from: JeffDG on October 22, 2010, 07:43:36 PM
OK, but what is your acceptable level of risk?  How many cadet injuries are acceptable to you?  Do you inform parents of what the number of acceptable injuries is?
You're looking at this as if you can achieve zero injuries by making a goal of zero injuries. Life doesn't work that way.

When in comes to cadets, if there is risk of injury, you work to mitigate the risk, or just don't allow cadets to perform the activity if the risk is potentially too high.

Every single person takes the risk of something happening to them when they wake up in the morning. Does that mean we don't get out of bed?

And we don't tell parents numbers of "acceptable injuries", because we don't generate such numbers. On the other hand, we don't lie by telling parents that their child will never be injured.

You can't just say "We'll never have any injuries." It's a fact of life that people get hurt. You cannot change reality. Not accepting that is not accepting reality.

We shoot for a goal of no injuries. It's possible to do everything right and still have something go wrong. That's not incompetence, that's not failure of duty, it's life. The number of variables that could make something go wrong is probably not within the ability of human understanding.

You try hard to make sure nothing bad happens, and if it does, you avoid doing what leads up to it in the future.

manfredvonrichthofen

Quote from: JeffDG on October 22, 2010, 07:43:36 PM
OK, but what is your acceptable level of risk?  How many cadet injuries are acceptable to you?  Do you inform parents of what the number of acceptable injuries is?

Injuries are never acceptable. The point is that you always shoot for zero. Now for once really read what is being said and think about it for a second. National says that if we are doing our job then there will be no injuries all year, at the same time if there is one injury this year then no one not even you did your job.

I tell the truth, that injuries sometimes happen. We perform every possible aspect of risk management, but that some times things happen. What about you do you just blatantly lie to the parents and tell them that there will never be an injury, that they just don't happen?

ZigZag911

Correct, we can't avoid accidents.

However, we can greatly reduce negligence, recklessness, insufficient planning, lack or prudence and due discretion...which will greatly curtail the CAP 'accidents' that are actually candidates for the annual "Darwing Awards"!

manfredvonrichthofen

Also if you plan to have no accidents, what do you do when you have one? You should always plan to have an accident, so that you know exactly what you will do if one arises. Also, expecting to have no accidents puts you in line for negligence.

Proper prior planning prevents piss poor performance.

BillB

If you plan to have an accident.....It's not an accident
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104

manfredvonrichthofen

An accident is a happening that is not intentional. You plan for the occurrence of the things that you do not intend to have happen. So no, planning for an accident does not make an accident not an accident. It just means that you plan for the worst.

James Shaw

Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on October 23, 2010, 11:01:06 PM
An accident is a happening that is not intentional. You plan for the occurrence of the things that you do not intend to have happen. So no, planning for an accident does not make an accident not an accident. It just means that you plan for the worst.

If you fail to plan, you plan to fail!!

:clap: :clap: :clap::clap:
Jim Shaw
USN: 1987-1992
GANG: 1996-1998
CAP:2000 - Current
USCGA:2018 - Current
SGAUS: 2017 - Current

Hawk200

Quote from: ZigZag911 on October 23, 2010, 04:19:46 AM...the annual "Darwing Awards"!
Was that a typo or are there actual "Darwing Awards"?

No, I'm not being dense, it just sounds like some little play on words that someone might come up with: "Well, we look at those accidents in the wing like the 'Darwin Awards.' The wing Darwin awards. Wait-a-minute, Darwin, wing....Hmmm....'Darwing Awards!' Yeah, we'll call all the wings accidents the 'Darwing Awards'! It's catchy!"

Of course, if it was just a typo, you may have inadvertently just coined a phrase.

ZigZag911

Guess I invented a new term accidentally -- it was supposed to be "Darwin Awards", which someone grants annually for those who have done the most to improve the human species by putting themselves on the 'endangered species list'!

arajca

Quote from: ZigZag911 on October 24, 2010, 03:45:11 PM
Guess I invented a new term accidentally -- it was supposed to be "Darwin Awards", which someone grants annually for those who have done the most to improve the human species by putting themselves on the 'endangered species list'!
I though it was for removing themselves from the human gene pool.

Hawk200

Quote from: ZigZag911 on October 24, 2010, 03:45:11 PMGuess I invented a new term accidentally -- it was supposed to be "Darwin Awards",
Well, inadvertent or not, it's still yours. Mind if I borrow? Kinda like it.

ZigZag911


DakRadz

The NatComm seems to understand the true meaning of our Safety program- or at least her script writers do. "If Safety was the only number one priority, then we would never fly airplanes. We would not take a ground team into harm's way following a devastating hurricane." etc., so on. Something very positive considering the other thread elsewhere..


In relation to the new Safety video which is discussed elsewhere.

sneakers

In my opinion many of the "higher-ups" in CAP are obsessed with safety. Should we exercise common sense? Absolutely. But if you look at the new "intro to safety" course that is required, the questions border on the idiotic! Injuries will happen to a certain extent. The only way for no injuries to happen (I think) is to make our mission only going door-to-door selling cookies like the girl scouts.

Eclipse

Quote from: pilot2b on April 01, 2011, 02:18:12 AMThe only way for no injuries to happen (I think) is to make our mission only going door-to-door selling cookies like the girl scouts.

The way for no injuries to happen is to practice ORM in our activities, which, despite the posturing here and elsewhere about
"too much safety training", has not slowed the number of avoidable vehicle and bodily injury mishaps we have had in the last year.

When we get to statistical zero on avoidable mishaps we will have more standing to complain.

"That Others May Zoom"

RADIOMAN015

Quote from: Eclipse on April 01, 2011, 02:48:47 AM
Quote from: pilot2b on April 01, 2011, 02:18:12 AMThe only way for no injuries to happen (I think) is to make our mission only going door-to-door selling cookies like the girl scouts.

The way for no injuries to happen is to practice ORM in our activities, which, despite the posturing here and elsewhere about
"too much safety training", has not slowed the number of avoidable vehicle and bodily injury mishaps we have had in the last year.

When we get to statistical zero on avoidable mishaps we will have more standing to complain.
Perhaps some of our activities and personnel are just more accident/injury prone :-\.  Likely better supervision in conjunction with supervisory keen awareness of ORM many have an impact on accidents/injury rates.  I'm not so sure sitting someone down in front of of a computer and read/take a multiple question test accomplishments very much.  May a simple laminated card, with ORM principles and a few slogans such as THINK BEFORE YOU ACT, coupled with a very thoughout briefing BEFORE the specific activity begins might be better.
RM

     

commando1

Quote from: pilot2b on April 01, 2011, 02:18:12 AM
The only way for no injuries to happen (I think) is to make our mission only going door-to-door selling cookies like the girl scouts.
That comment makes me wonder how many Girl Scouts are injured every year..."Scout Snuffy was selling cookies and was stung by a wasp." "Scout Snuffy slipped off a curb and sprained her ankle"...etc. What is the Girl Scout response? Accidents happen. What would be the CAP response? We'll put together another mandatory safety test about curbs.  >:D
Non Timebo Mala

RADIOMAN015

Quote from: commando1 on April 10, 2011, 07:38:15 PM
Quote from: pilot2b on April 01, 2011, 02:18:12 AM
The only way for no injuries to happen (I think) is to make our mission only going door-to-door selling cookies like the girl scouts.
That comment makes me wonder how many Girl Scouts are injured every year..."Scout Snuffy was selling cookies and was stung by a wasp." "Scout Snuffy slipped off a curb and sprained her ankle"...etc. What is the Girl Scout response? Accidents happen. What would be the CAP response? We'll put together another mandatory safety test about curbs.  >:D
Actually door to door selling (at least in my area), has pretty much stopped.  There was concern for GS safety, so it usually is sold to folks they know (e.g. your coworkers bring the order form to work) or when they get the cookies a group of them, supervised by adults will sell it in a public area where permitted.

I think that's why some of CAP's former fund raising activities, pretty much aren't used anymore.  Door to door selling can be dangerous to anyone, but especially young teenagers.
RM   

lordmonar

I don't think that door to door selling is all that dangerous.....but it is no simply not allowed in many communities.

I hate when sales people knock on my door.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

manfredvonrichthofen

I just think it is a little outrageous to say that if there is one accident this year everyone is at fault. I would have to say that accidents are part of being human and while almost all are avoidable saying there should be NONE is out there. I would however say that with each accident the proper forms would have to be filled out and proper measures should be taken to ensure that the risks are minimized and if an accident does occur proper measures are also taken to ensure that the same accident doesn't happen again.

Turning CAP into the girl scouts should be out of the question and out of everyone's minds. We just need to ensure that we are all (and here comes the Motto link) vigilant, and take proper measures. Remember, proper prior planning prevents [urine] poor performance.

EDIT: for language.

commando1

Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on April 11, 2011, 12:35:10 AM
I just think it is a little outrageous to say that if there is one accident this year everyone is at fault. I would have to say that accidents are part of being human and while almost all are avoidable saying there should be NONE is out there. I would however say that with each accident the proper forms would have to be filled out and proper measures should be taken to ensure that the risks are minimized and if an accident does occur proper measures are also taken to ensure that the same accident doesn't happen again.
I completely agree! Sometimes it seems as if CAP would rather sacrifice operational capability than safety. Don't get me wrong, safety is important. But having a 30 min long safety briefing for every single operation we do seems a little much. YMMV
Non Timebo Mala

jimmydeanno

Other than the ORM course work and new member safety course, the safety briefings, etc have done nothing to curb our operational abilities or amount of time we have to do activities.  Sometimes I wonder if people are making a mountain out of a molehill. 

I just went to a weekend long activity.  The safety briefing at the beginning of the day consisted of where the exits were and the rally point in case of fire.

The safety briefing the next day reminded people to make sure the vans were in good repair before leaving (since most of us had 4+ hours of drive time ahead of us), and to take some rest stops.

Safety is only intrusive if you make it that way.
If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill

Eclipse

Yep.

Encampment week 1 -

Day 1 - exits, hydrate, fire drill, health issues (useful info)

Day 2 - ditto, plus a little swimming and PT common sense

Day 3 - mid-day weather briefing as mother nature threatened to flatten the Midwest (and then, apparently, was distracted by something
shiny and forgot to finish).

However...

Teaching ORM-B to a roomful of excited / tired / scared / sleepy cadets, most with no input into the activity itself, seems
like a use of time which would be better spent elsewhere.

"That Others May Zoom"