Logging PIC time

[simon]

Two pilots go flying. Prior to the flight, both pilots agree that for the purposes of the flight, pilot A will act as pilot in command. Mid-flight, pilot B takes control of the aircraft and remains sole manipulator of the controls for one hour. Can pilot B log that hour as PIC?

My read of the regulations is 'Yes'.

[Flying Pig]

You log the time that you are the sole manipulator of the controls.  Pilot B gets his hour, Pilot A gets the balance.  Appointing someone PIC for the purposes of eservices has nothing to do with who logs the time if its CAP related.  Technically, while pilot B is flying, he is the PIC.  Whatever informal verbal arrangement the two of you made at the beginning has nothing to do with who logs the time as long as you two are appropriately rated and endorsed.

[isuhawkeye]

[md]

Interesting question. I've heard both answers before. The CFRs don't forbid it, but I think the official CAP answer would be no. Anyone want to ask KB?

Let's quote the relevant line of CFR 61.51 (OK, I'm being anal, but I just had this conversation with someone recently):

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time.
(1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights -
(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated...

and there's no provision for the other pilot to log that time (assuming no instructors or safety pilots). To me, that implies that pilot B is PIC, not just logging PIC time, and so he's responsible for the safety and outcome of the flight, etc. I think Flying Pig would agree:

Technically, while pilot B is flying, he is the PIC.

However, we do have all these nice rules in 60-1 about what you need to have and to do to act as PIC, including, of course, a WMIRS entry and a flight release, and I don't see how two different pilots could get a release for the same flight.

That said, I don't see anyone checking your logbook....

[md]

And, on another note, of course we have the requirement about the designated PIC handling the controls below 1000AGL unless giving instruction.

As for instruction, or for hood time - the way I read it, it's OK for both pilots to log PIC, but only if the safety pilot or instructor is the one actually designated as PIC, receiving the release, etc.

EDIT - can't type today...

[JeffDG]

You log the time that you are the sole manipulator of the controls.  Pilot B gets his hour, Pilot A gets the balance.  Appointing someone PIC for the purposes of eservices has nothing to do with who logs the time if its CAP related.  Technically, while pilot B is flying, he is the PIC.  Whatever informal verbal arrangement the two of you made at the beginning has nothing to do with who logs the time as long as you two are appropriately rated and endorsed.

First off, whoever is controlling the aircraft, as long as they have a private pilot license in category and class (for CAP, almost always Single Engine Land), can log PIC time (61.51(e)(1)(i) ).  This says nothing at all about who is acting as PIC, just who can log the time in the PIC column.  A pilot logging as "sole manipulator" need not be current for passengers, have a medical, or even a current flight review.

Where an agreement comes into the picture is when you're dealing with Safety Pilots (not instructors, as instructors can always log PIC when giving instruction).  Under 91.109(b), a Safety Pilot is a "Required Crew Member" whenever the pilot flying is under the hood.  That brings 61.51(e)(iii) into play:

(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

That means that if the Safety Pilot is:
-Qualified to act as PIC (medical, flight review, HP/complex endorsed, passenger currency, etc)
-Acting as the PIC (person responsible for the safety of the flight)

That second one is where CAP regs come into the picture.  The individual needs to be legitimately acting as PIC in order to exercise this.  That means, for a CAP plane, the person needs to be current WRT Form 5 in the aircraft, the mission (so at least a TMP for example on an AFAM), and designated as the PIC for the flight (FRO and WMIRS) in order to log PIC as a safety pilot.  In non-CAP aircraft, you can make an informal agreement because there's really no evidence to contradict the word of the pilots, but in CAP, there's always a record of who was designated as the PIC on a flight.

[simon]

Thanks to all for the clarification which confirmed my thinking.

Owing to the replies, I should point out that my question was nothing to do with people in CAP planes. I am looking to acquire time in type of a non CAP aircraft to qualify for the insurance. The forum answers confirm that flying from the right can be logged as PIC.

[Flying Pig]

Affirm.  You can.  I have about 300hrs PIC logged in the right seat of my departments helicopter during the time that I was an observer.  I was a rated pilot, sole manipulator of the controls for the time I logged.  What seat you were in makes no difference. (Pilot is left in the 500E)

[JeffDG]

Thanks to all for the clarification which confirmed my thinking.

Owing to the replies, I should point out that my question was nothing to do with people in CAP planes. I am looking to acquire time in type of a non CAP aircraft to qualify for the insurance. The forum answers confirm that flying from the right can be logged as PIC.

Excellent.

Just remember, for "sole manipulator" all you need is category and class.  You don't need endorsements (ie. High Performance, Complex, tailwheel) or ratings (instrument) in order to log...If you're flying with an IR rated pilot in the other seat (again, doesn't matter which), on an IFR flight plan, you can log PIC time in actual IMC without the rating without issue.  The only time you get where you can't log is if you move to a twin (if you only have SEL) or get really insane and fly one of those helicopter things that are just deathtraps ( ), because then you don't have class (multi-engine) or category (rotorcraft).

[simon]

If you're flying with an IR rated pilot in the other seat (again, doesn't matter which), on an IFR flight plan, you can log PIC time in actual IMC without the rating without issue.

Interesting consequence of only requiring category and class.

I imagine this would be rare to actually happen, but it would be educational for a non instrument rated pilot to hand fly IMC right seat cross country for a while to illustrate the pilot workload (Esp. without the primary instruments in front of them - G1000 reversionary mode excluded)

The other thing that occurred to me through the PIC rule is how it could create logbook experience that really doesn't cut the mustard. Imagine two pilots flying from San Jose to LA in the 182 G1000. At 800' AGL, the left seat pilot switches to autopilot, hands control to the right seat pilot, who, if the flight director is programmed properlly, might hardly touch the controls until they get to the LA basin. It would not qualify in most pilot's minds as PIC in terms of "flying experience", yet it meets the FAA requirements. Even IMC. Which is where the big difference lies between hand flying vs. having a multi axis autopilot, flight director and moving map.

I do understand that the rule was written with the intention that the PIC would actually be flying the plane and written long ago enough that this was probably also the case. Just an observation.

[Stearmann4]

Sounds fairly similiar to what we have to decipher when flying military aircraft. The military defines the PC (PIC) as the pilot who signs for the aircraft. Thus when the logbook is completed post flight, one pilot logs all PIC, the designated co-pilot logs co-pilot (PI in the Army), even if both pilots are equally qualified.

As we know, PT 61 of the FARs don't neccessarily apply to logging military time, so at the end of the day, I go home and fill out my logbook converting the time to comply with the "sole manipulator of the controls" criteria.

It's the military, and CAP's flight program runs roughly parallel, so just remember the distinction between who had to sign for the aircraft for liability purposes vs who is flying the plan at a given time when recording in your logbook.

Mike-

[Flying Pig]

If you're flying with an IR rated pilot in the other seat (again, doesn't matter which), on an IFR flight plan, you can log PIC time in actual IMC without the rating without issue.

Interesting consequence of only requiring category and class.

I imagine this would be rare to actually happen, but it would be educational for a non instrument rated pilot to hand fly IMC right seat cross country for a while to illustrate the pilot workload (Esp. without the primary instruments in front of them - G1000 reversionary mode excluded)

The other thing that occurred to me through the PIC rule is how it could create logbook experience that really doesn't cut the mustard. Imagine two pilots flying from San Jose to LA in the 182 G1000. At 800' AGL, the left seat pilot switches to autopilot, hands control to the right seat pilot, who, if the flight director is programmed properlly, might hardly touch the controls until they get to the LA basin. It would not qualify in most pilot's minds as PIC in terms of "flying experience", yet it meets the FAA requirements. Even IMC. Which is where the big difference lies between hand flying vs. having a multi axis autopilot, flight director and moving map.

I do understand that the rule was written with the intention that the PIC would actually be flying the plane and written long ago enough that this was probably also the case. Just an observation.

The regs are complicated enough as it is.  Lets not give the FAA any ideas!  Next thing you know, anything done in a G1000 will all be SIC time!