CAP Talk

Why do we have one?   

Discuss.

 This again again  ???

We currently don't he quit.

The national CC hasn't appointed a new one

Quote from: isuhawkeye on February 04, 2008, 03:29:02 AM
This again again  ???

We currently don't he quit.

The national CC hasn't appointed a new one

According to the National Commander, yes we do. I cannot provide a url or anything because she told me directly, on Saturday. I can't remember their name but I do know it is a CMSgt from AZWG. Gen Courter told me to keep my eye on the national web site for more information, to be expected with in the next two weeks.

But since I know this will not satisfy anyone I have submitted it to the KB.

Now, why do we have one? Because I am not the only one trying to build the NCO Corps up, and when you have NCO's you need a NCO Leader.

Quote from: PHall on February 04, 2008, 03:09:42 AM
Why do we have one?    Discuss.

Because HWSRN met someone he liked in IAWG who happened to be one of the 50 Realmilitary® NCOs who refused CAP officer appointment and was talked into an idea which has no place in today's CAP without radical restructure and plenty of collateral damage without any indication of benefit to the organization, the members, or the mission.

Quote from: SSgt Rudin on February 04, 2008, 03:35:38 AM
Now, why do we have one? Because I am not the only one trying to build the NCO Corps up, and when you have NCO's you need a NCO Leader.

In the Realmilitary® you have NCOs because you have enlisted personnel who are physically and emotionally separated from the managerial leadership because of the realities of their job, education, and an unfortunate but necessary caste system.

The NCO's are there to  insure the health and well-being of those enlisted personnel, as well as ground-level command them in the grand-schemes that the managers create.

Since the reality of a volunteer organization is that we are all "enlisted", who do these NCO's think they are going to watch out for?

In my opinion, if we are going to have NCOs there has to be differentiation between CAP Officers and CAP NCOs as well as CAP Airmen (enslisted).

This would mean we will have to have a true "officer corps," a true "NCO corps" and a true "enlisted corps."

Thus, pilots, prior service officers, Spaatz Cadets and college graduates (augmented by a CAP Officer Program, not yet existant, or having a special skill like Legal Officer or Doctor) would be legible to be officers. 

Johnny "I  want to Serve" Capman, who joins CAP off the street would start as an Airman Basic and move up.  NCOs would be made up of long time CAP AIRMEN selected based on a rigorous system and critieria or having been on in the Military.  There would be a set number of CAP NCOs attached to units with the senior ones attached to Groups.

This would destroy the "mythos" of NCOs in CAP and replace it with a fair system that made sense.

I suspect even Eclipse can see that this is the only real way to have effective NCOs in CAP.

Lets keep this one specific to the Command Chief Master Sergeant of CAP.

Dumb question:  Do they actually refer to someone as the Command Chief Master Sergent of AETC and the like.... as opposed to say, the Command Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force?  ???

Quote from: MIKE on February 04, 2008, 04:44:29 AM
Lets keep this one specific to the Command Chief Master Sergeant of CAP.

Maybe that's the point, how can you separate the position from the duties? Is this just supposed to be a ceremonial appointment to make us look more like big blue on the flow chart?

The members who chose to refuse officer appointment in favor of displaying their RealMilitary® enlisted grade do not need anyone watching out for their "health and welfare" because there is no distinction made to their duties or participative abilities.

I do agree with Maj C above in his statement that the only way this works is a re-imagining of the entire program.

Quote from: MIKE on February 04, 2008, 04:44:29 AMDumb question:  Do they actually refer to someone as the Command Chief Master Sergent of AETC and the like.... as opposed to say, the Command Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force?  ???

4 years wearing stripes in the AF now and I think I know the answer to this...YES.  For instance, my squadron has a Chief Master Sergeant, but the wing has a Command Chief Master Sergeant.  So yes, the CCMSAF of the AF is not the only Command Chief.  There is a star centered between the 3 up and 5 down stripes.  I think, the CCMSAF has a star with a wreath around it.

As for the original question.

Quote from: PHall on February 04, 2008, 03:09:42 AM
Why do we have one?   

I have no idea why we have one.  Doesn't make sense to me.

I've heard a lot of people say this in an argument about CAP being "too military":  "If you want to look or act like the military so bad, why don't you just go join".  Personally, I think that's a pathetic statement.  However, I can almost see some validity in that statement if it was addressed to someone wanting to be an NCO in CAP.  The only reason I can remotely agree with as far as wanting to be a CAP NCO is a former military NCO wanting to keep their rank for nostalgia purposes.  Which, to me, in CAP you should be looking to the future, i.e. the cadet program.

Actually, if the title is "Command Chief Master Sergent of Civil Air Patrol", well then we got it wrong again.

This is a mash-up of two different staff positions within the RealMilitary®.

A Command Chief Master Sergent is the highest NCO in a respective command.

Quote from: wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chief_Master_Sergeant#Command_Chief_Master_Sergeant
Command Chief Master Sergeant

The position of Command Chief Master Sergeant (CCM) was created in November 1998. Formerly titled Senior Enlisted Advisor, Command Chief Master Sergeants serve as senior advisors to commanders at Wing, Numbered Air Force (NAF), Field Operating Agency (FOA), and Major Command (MAJCOM) levels. When the senior enlisted position of a Joint Command is a DoD-nominative Command Senior Enlisted Leader position (e.g., Army CSM, Marine SgtMaj, Navy CMDCM, FORCM or FLTCM, or Air Force Command Chief Master Sergeant) and the positiion is filled by an Air Force enlisted member, that individual is also designated as a Command Chief Master Sergeant. Command Chiefs are the functional managers for all Chief Master Sergeants and First Sergeants in their command.

The "Chief Master Sergent of the Air Force" is the highest ranking enlisted member in the USAF.

Quote from: wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chief_Master_Sergeant#Command_Chief_Master_Sergeant
Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force

There exists one post, Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force (CMSAF), which is unique. The Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force is selected by the Air Force Chief of Staff. The CMSAF is the senior enlisted member in the Air Force, with a 3-star protocol equivalency. The CMSAF represents entire Air Force enlisted force, and speaks on behalf of the enlisted members of the Air Force to Air Force and DoD senior leadership and, when requested, to Congress. As of 2008, the current Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force is CMSgt Rodney J. McKinley.

Like a Highlander, there can be only one.

There are many command cheifs...one for each MAJCOM/NAF/FOA/Wing...but only one CCMSAF...Command Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force.


So if CAP were to have Command Chiefs (which is debateable...but I digress) we would have many Command Chiefs (one for each wing and region) and one CCMSCAP Command Chief Master Sergeant of the Civil Air Patrol.

Quote from: lordmonar on February 05, 2008, 05:14:34 AM
There are many command cheifs...one for each MAJCOM/NAF/FOA/Wing...but only one CCMSAF...Command Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force.


So if CAP were to have Command Chiefs (which is debateable...but I digress) we would have many Command Chiefs (one for each wing and region) and one CCMSCAP Command Chief Master Sergeant of the Civil Air Patrol.

Unfortunately, I've gotta go with Eclipse on this one ... there is not a "Command Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force".  Like you say, there are Command Chief Master Sergeants at the Wing/MAJCOM/NAF level ... but the senior enlisted member of the Air Force is the "Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force".  See applicable excerpts from AFI 36-2618, Enlisted Force Structure:

Quote from: Paragraph 6.1.1
6.1.1. Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force (CMSAF). The CMSAF is the senior enlisted member of the Air Force and takes precedence over all enlisted members while serving in the position. The CMSAF provides leadership to the enlisted force and advises the Chief of Staff, Secretary of the Air Force, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and the Secretary of Defense on enlisted matters. The CMSAF communicates with the force and testifies before Congress. The CMSAF operates at the strategic level of leadership. The official term of address is Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force or Chief. (AFI 36-2109, Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force and Command Chief).

Quote from: Paragraph 6.1.2
6.1.2. Command Chief Master Sergeants (CCM). The CCM is the top enlisted position in a wing, NAF, MAJCOM, or other organization authorized a CCM. The CCM provides leadership to the enlisted force and advises commanders on matters impacting the enlisted force, among other responsibilities. The CCM is the functional manager for the first sergeants in their organization. MAJCOM CCMs operate at the strategic level of leadership. All other CCMs operate at the operational level of leadership. (AFI 36-2109, Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force and Command Chief).

Gotta love PME.

So technically, we have a Chief Master Sergeant of Civil Air Patrol (CMSCAP).

They should come up with special chevrons for that... with a CAP prop inside the wreath in center.

Quote from: afgeo4 on February 05, 2008, 06:40:48 AM
So technically, we have a Chief Master Sergeant of Civil Air Patrol (CMSCAP).

They should come up with special chevrons for that... with a CAP prop inside the wreath in center.

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=4227.0 (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=4227.0)

On page one.

ow.my.eyes.

That red has got to go.  And lets see, what will be the price of a set of these. Of course we're only talking about 2-3 sets depending on how many uniforms the Command Chief Master Sergant of the CAP owns. That should put the cost about $10 a set.

Siiiiiigh,

Having been an Infantry NCO in both the Army and Marines, I can assure you CAP will never have "NCO's".  We will have members who have chosen to wear NCO patches. 
As an Infantry Sgt, like many here, I was responsible for the lives and welfare of my guys.  I maintained their next of kin records, went and got a few out of jail a few times, NEVER got any sleep.  Made sure they all ate before I did.  We lived together, ate together, deployed together.  Stayed up for hours listening to them when their fiance dumped them 5 months into a deployment and saw to it that they were trained to be Marines or Soldiers.  I had a Marine in my Platoon killed in training and was the one who had to clean the blood and brains out of his gear with a garden hose before it got turned in, and go through his personal property before it got sent home to insure his mother didn't get back anything she didn't want to see.  Then their was their physical training.... still have nightmares.

I was a 21 year old Marine Sgt and was the oldest guy in my Platoon aside from the Plt. Commander, who was, I think 25.  You guys can give yourselves whatever title you want.  Having been a NCO, Im perfectly happy being a CAP Officer.  If for some reason my qualifications are reviewed, and I fall into the "NCO Corps" then so be it, CAP is still CAP.  But it will be interesting to see the Officer and enlisted separation at the next Wing Conference.

Some of you guys are just trying way to hard on something that isn't going to be what you think it will.  Being an enlisted person or NCO is a mindset that is entrenched from the day you swear in at MEPS, through boot camp and MOS training and is daily reinforced.  And I mean DAILY! When the day you pin on you NCO Chevrons comes, you get a VERY direct talking to by every other NCO in the unit who tells you, "You are one of us now." Your relationship with the guy you drank with last night literally comes to an end.   Now, you drink with the NCO's.  when you become a Staff NCO, you get the same talk again.  You know exactly what an officer is, especially in combat arms MOS's and you never cross that line.  I had a rare military experience in that every Platoon Commander I had was prior enlisted, both in the Marines and in the Army Reserves.  I was told by every one of them that the day they pinned on their bars required one of the hardest psychological transitions they had ever experienced. 

Do us all a favor and lets not waste time and effort because a few of you think you'd like to be a CAP CMSgt someday.  For those of you who were military, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this topic.

^Awesome, well said and needed.

Further, going from being enlisted to the officer corps is not simply the "next step".  It is so serious and differentiated a situation that you are discharged from the enlisted ranks before you can accept a commission.

And with all that has been said, and three active threads right now.  No one has written a single word anywhere that I have seen as to what NCO's would actually do in CAP that is different from officers, and how it would enhance and improve the program.

Quote from: Eclipse on February 05, 2008, 07:04:49 PM
And with all that has been said, and three active threads right now.  No one has written a single word anywhere that I have seen as to what NCO's would actually do in CAP that is different from officers, and how it would enhance and improve the program.

Which should be the ONLY reason for making such a change.

Quote from: Eclipse on February 05, 2008, 07:04:49 PM
And with all that has been said, and three active threads right now.  No one has written a single word anywhere that I have seen as to what NCO's would actually do in CAP that is different from officers, and how it would enhance and improve the program.

Exactly, right now the only difference between CAP Officers and CAP NCOs is the insignia they wear and who they have to salute.  Their duties are IDENTICAL.  Since the duties are identical, there is no need for a separate NCO Corps.

Quote from: Eclipse on February 05, 2008, 07:04:49 PMNo one has written a single word anywhere that I have seen as to what NCO's would actually do in CAP that is different from officers, and how it would enhance and improve the program.

I have indicated that I cautiously support our NCO program for a couple of practical reasons.

1.  Currently, all of our NCOs have BTDT.  As long as this is true, they gain instant "street cred" when dealing with the RM.  For instance, I have found that it is handy to have a CAP NCO to send over to base logistics to speak with the NCOIC to sort out problems at encampment.  It simply works better than sending over some SM Lt Col, on average.  Obviously, this would change if we altered our NCO appointment rules.

2.  Within the CP world, we train cadet NCOs.  And as long as we teach them about the differences in style and techniques between officer and NCO leadership.  (Direct vs. indirect leadership, etc.) then it can be helpful to have high-speed NCOs to act as trainers, mentors, and role-models for our cadet NCO's.


I'm not sure if these two areas are sufficient justification for significantly changing/broadening our program. 

But there are at least some positive aspects to our current NCO program.

Ned Lee

So to get back to the topic, since CAP NCOs do not promote, exactly what is the CMSgt of CAP?

I have been in CAP and been a part of CAP since 1986.  I have never met or seen a CAP NCO and had no idea there was a CAP Command Chief.

Was he just the senior NCO Senior Member CAP had?  How did he get that job? 

Quote from: Flying Pig on February 05, 2008, 08:08:18 PM
So to get back to the topic, since CAP NCOs do not promote, exactly what is the CMSgt of CAP?

I have been in CAP and been a part of CAP since 1986.  I have never met or seen a CAP NCO and had no idea there was a CAP Command Chief.

Was he just the senior NCO Senior Member CAP had?  How did he get that job? 

The last Chief Master Sergeant of the Civil Air Patrol was a retired Iowa National Guard CMSgt, and a CMSgt in CAP serving at Iowa Wing HQ, who was appointed as CAP's first CMSgtCAP by then-Maj Gen Antonio Pineda and charged with building "CAP's NCO Corps".  I believe Chief Chiafos (the previous CMSgtCAP) posted here several times.

not quite.

the chief was active duty air force and was an E9 with air force OSI.  he joined The Iowa wing after he retired from active duty

oh yeah.  he may have had something to do with the raid on national hq back in the day.  I'm sure others can fill in that little tidbit

Okay, which thread is which on this discussion. Can we focus the NCOs versus not to that new thread & keep this one to CCM? Plz, for general mod sanity?  :D

Yes.

The subject of the CMSgt of CAP former or current does not seem to have enough energy to keep from drifting.

Topic split to Change for change sake... CAP grades apart from what we have now (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=4252)
FWIW, This dead horse has been well beaten before, never with any solutions or consensus. 

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