ironing just assumed?

Started by MrsRoe, March 20, 2018, 04:51:40 AM

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MrsRoe

A quick search of "ironing ABUs" has yielded me a ton of conversations about the wear and tear etc of ironing the ABUs but I can't find where it says the cadets are supposed to iron in xyz fashion. Is this an assumed thing they do? Am I once again just being technically cursed and can't find the reg?
Just a new SM and mom of a CAP kid trying to figure it out one acronym at a time

Fester

From CAPM 39-1: "Do not starch or hot press shoulder patches. Light ironing and center
creasing of NCO chevrons is authorized; however, repeated hot pressing or heavy ironing will accelerate
the overall wear of the fabric."

I had one set of BDU's for most of my 6 years as a Cadet.  Heavily ironed and starched on a regular basis.  They lasted just fine.  I don't think there's a specific way to iron them, but i always heavily starched mine (because I liked the sharp look) and made sure I had creases down the sleeves and the legs.
1stLt, CAP
Squadron CC
Group CPO
Eaker - 1996

MrsRoe

Thanks, her squad asks for the crease down the sleeve and front of pants but we couldn't find anything other than the quote from the 39-1 you mentioned which left her confused to why they do it
Just a new SM and mom of a CAP kid trying to figure it out one acronym at a time

Fester

WIWAC, I did it because I didn't think it looked professional unless it was starched and ironed.  Even now, my utility uniform (the Blue BDU because I'm a fat and fuzzy) gets starched and ironed.  The only difference is now, as an adult, I can pay someone else to do it.  :D
1stLt, CAP
Squadron CC
Group CPO
Eaker - 1996

MrsRoe

"fat and fuzzy" dying lol this actually came up because she's a little over extended time wise and uses a dry cleaners for her uniforms and our new one looked at her insane when she requested the creases and said they'd put it in her customer file if we could print it out.
Just a new SM and mom of a CAP kid trying to figure it out one acronym at a time

Fester

I'd say she needs to find a new dry cleaner, then.  I have creases put in all garments I take to the cleaners.  Including my dress shirts and trousers I wear to work.  Never had anyone question me when I ask.
1stLt, CAP
Squadron CC
Group CPO
Eaker - 1996

LSThiker

I have always been amused when cadets require BDUs to be heavily pressed and starched.  Ironed, yes.  Starched or heavily pressed?  No.  The uniform is a field uniform.  Iron the wrinkles and put the extra fabric folds back into their place, but no need to starch it and make a crease down the sleeve.  The same with boots.  Make them black.  No need to spend 30 min to hours making them mirror like.  YMMV.

Jester

ABUs are not BDUs. Don't starch them and take it easy on the ironing.

If she has the older heavyweight ones they're permanent press and have permanent creases. I wear mine right out of the dryer, periodically lightly ironing my stripes for a crease down the center.

The newer ripstop ones don't have the creases but still don't go crazy with it, it's harder on the fabric.

LSThiker

Quote from: Jester on March 20, 2018, 12:29:29 PM
ABUs are not BDUs.

Hence why I stated BDUs. But that was not the point

Jester

Quote from: LSThiker on March 20, 2018, 12:34:33 PM
Quote from: Jester on March 20, 2018, 12:29:29 PM
ABUs are not BDUs.

Hence why I stated BDUs. But that was not the point
We posted at the same time, I wasn't responding to you.

TheSkyHornet

You don't generally iron ABUs. It's essentially a "wash and wear" uniform. But you should iron them if they get wash-wrinkle.

From AFI 36-2903, for additional guidance beyond the ABU Wear Instructions that have yet to make it into CAPM 39-1:
Quote5.1. Do not starch the ABU. Ironing of ABUs and center creasing of enlisted chevrons is authorized; however, repeated hot pressing or heavy ironing accelerates the overall wear of the fabric. Mixing and matching of the heavy weight version of the ABU and Ripstop Airman Battle Uniform (RABU) coat/trouser is not authorized.

hamburgee

I found this on the Malstrom AFB site:

QuoteQ12: Does the ABU require dry cleaning and/or pressing?

A12: The ABU is literally a wash and wear item. In fact, starching and hot pressing of ABUs is prohibited. Also, one should not dry clean the ABU. Dry cleaning, starching and hot pressing will deteriorate the fiber in the uniform and shorten the wear life.

If you're down for reading, check out the whole article! It has some interesting stuff about ABUs on there that CAP contrasts.
http://www.malmstrom.af.mil/News/Features/Display/Article/349915/qas-regarding-airman-battle-uniform/

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: hamburgee on March 20, 2018, 01:58:09 PM
I found this on the Malstrom AFB site:

QuoteQ12: Does the ABU require dry cleaning and/or pressing?

A12: The ABU is literally a wash and wear item. In fact, starching and hot pressing of ABUs is prohibited. Also, one should not dry clean the ABU. Dry cleaning, starching and hot pressing will deteriorate the fiber in the uniform and shorten the wear life.

If you're down for reading, check out the whole article! It has some interesting stuff about ABUs on there that CAP contrasts.
http://www.malmstrom.af.mil/News/Features/Display/Article/349915/qas-regarding-airman-battle-uniform/

Which goes against the 2017 AFI that I posted above (as this page is from 2007).

Whenever I read "prohibited," I personally like to know where that prohibition comes from. If I recall correctly, Army ACUs and Air Force ABUs were once prohibited, in regulation, from being ironed (I know we were always prohibited from ironing our ACUs), but that has since changed for the Air Force (I'm not sure if it was ever published as an official prohibited action).


If CAP regulations don't prohibit it, it's not prohibited.

If CAP regulations don't address a question, take it up the chain. Refer to Air Force guidance, if available, but understand that Air Force regulations do not apply to CAP unless specifically instructed, in CAP regs/manuals, to refer to the Air Force policy.

Geber

I recall reading somewhere that using starch makes fabric easier to detect with near-infrared viewing devices, thus making the camouflage ineffective. I tried a google search with starch near IR and didn't get anything about camo, but found a bunch of academic articles about measurements made with starch and near IR, so there seems to be a relationship.

Of course, CAP doesn't need functional camo.

I agree with the previous comment about the ABU being a utility uniform. If there is a need to put sharp creases in an ABU, that suggest the uniform of the day really ought to have been Class B or corporate equivalent. But then I'm a newbie, and my uniform experience comes from experience as a volunteer firefighter and EMT.

arajca

Quote from: Geber on March 20, 2018, 02:34:49 PM
I agree with the previous comment about the ABU being a utility uniform. If there is a need to put sharp creases in an ABU, that suggest the uniform of the day really ought to have been Class B or corporate equivalent. But then I'm a newbie, and my uniform experience comes from experience as a volunteer firefighter and EMT.

But the service uniforms are not tacti-kewl!

arajca

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on March 20, 2018, 02:19:52 PM
Quote from: hamburgee on March 20, 2018, 01:58:09 PM
I found this on the Malstrom AFB site:

QuoteQ12: Does the ABU require dry cleaning and/or pressing?

A12: The ABU is literally a wash and wear item. In fact, starching and hot pressing of ABUs is prohibited. Also, one should not dry clean the ABU. Dry cleaning, starching and hot pressing will deteriorate the fiber in the uniform and shorten the wear life.

If you're down for reading, check out the whole article! It has some interesting stuff about ABUs on there that CAP contrasts.
http://www.malmstrom.af.mil/News/Features/Display/Article/349915/qas-regarding-airman-battle-uniform/

Which goes against the 2017 AFI that I posted above (as this page is from 2007).

Whenever I read "prohibited," I personally like to know where that prohibition comes from. If I recall correctly, Army ACUs and Air Force ABUs were once prohibited, in regulation, from being ironed (I know we were always prohibited from ironing our ACUs), but that has since changed for the Air Force (I'm not sure if it was ever published as an official prohibited action).


If CAP regulations don't prohibit it, it's not prohibited.

If CAP regulations don't address a question, take it up the chain. Refer to Air Force guidance, if available, but understand that Air Force regulations do not apply to CAP unless specifically instructed, in CAP regs/manuals, to refer to the Air Force policy.
Excepting the uniform manual, which specifically states otherwise.

Eclipse

#16
What an AFI says, or doesn't say, regarding CAP uniform wear is largely irrelevant.

The BDU / CFU / ABU is a field uniform the vast majority of members, especially cadets,
will never wear in the field.

CAP members, especially cadets, decreasingly wear mil-spec uniform parts, as its primary
vendor sells knock offs (though the most recent CFU I bought does have Propper tags).

The BDU / CFU / ABU is intended to be worn 8 hours a day, in combat environments.
Most CAP members, especially cadets, wear their field uniform less then 8 hours a month
in urban settings.

Yes, the field uniforms are "wash and wear", however that doesn't mean "wash and leave in
a lump on the floor until next week" which is the care many adolescents give their clothes.

One of the reasons that starch, and some detergents, were / are prohibited for washing military
field uniforms is that they may cause cause the garment to fluoresce in infra-red light, making them easier to
see with night vision.  This is 100% irrelevant to CAP.

In a CAP context, if someone is doing an inspection and giving a member, especially a cadet,
grief for not having their field uniform pressed, they are wrong and the
understanding should be corrected professionally and discreetly.

In a CAP context, if someone is doing an inspection and giving a member, especially a cadet,
grief for having their field uniform pressed, they are wrong  and the
understanding should be corrected professionally and discreetly.

Context is important in all things.

FWIW, CMSAF James Cody made very public statements that while he did not
starch or press his ABUs, he did iron them and crease his stripes, as does
current CMSAF Kaleth O. Wright...


"That Others May Zoom"

Eclipse

#17
This is what the current 39-1 actually says about the issue:
https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/M391_E6F33EAAEC28A.pdf
Page(s) 66 & 69 Verbiage is the same for both USAF-Style and corporate variants
"5.1. USAF-style Utility Uniforms. Utility uniforms are specifically designed to be worn in a field or
working environment that involves physical exertion Field uniform wear is generally restricted to CAP
meeting and activities with a field or training focus, but may be worn away from activities for short
convenience stops and when eating at restaurants where people wear comparable civilian attire. Do not
wear field uniforms to eat in restaurants where most diners wear business attire or at establishments that
operate primarily to serve alcohol. Do not starch or hot press shoulder patches. Light ironing and center
creasing of NCO chevrons is authorized
; however, repeated hot pressing or heavy ironing will accelerate
the overall wear of the fabric. Females may wear the male version of any of the field uniforms."


Not sure why starching shoulder patches is prohibited, but rules is rules.

I also don't agree with the assertion that ironing and pressing will accelerate the wear of the fabric -
maybe with clothing worn every day, but on stuff worn a couple times a month for a couple hours? No.
I have seen a more then a few "shiny circles" on the CFU over the years where buttons were
pressed or ironed under the pockets, but everyone know's CAP is supposed to removed them
and sew them down AMIRITE?

Seriously, though, I'll take an ironed / dry cleaned field uniform over a sky-blue improperly washed
one all week.

"That Others May Zoom"

Geber

Quote from: arajca on March 20, 2018, 02:50:50 PM

But the service uniforms are not tacti-kewl!

Certainly cammo and/or tactical style clothing become fashionable from time to time, and now is one of those times. Even the armed services can succumb to fashion trends.

MrsRoe

I'm not sure if she specifically has new or old style. My father in law is active air force and buys her uniforms on base regularly so I would assume new. Where as I'm not particularly worried about wear and not at all worried about infrared she did bring up a point this morning. She said, as flight sergeant I have to enforce rules and I don't like doing so without it being written down somewhere that it's even a rule. She has the same issue with PT short length though that's another headache for another day.

I do see her point in wanting a reg lined out for the obsessive creasing. 


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Just a new SM and mom of a CAP kid trying to figure it out one acronym at a time

Eclipse

This is easy, if it isn't in an approved regulation or local supplement, then it's not a "thing"
and shouldn't be enforced.

Best lesson to teach her is not to embellish the written and to quash wive's tales.

The totality of what is required / allowed by NHQ is above.  Anything else is made up.

"That Others May Zoom"

MrsRoe

Quote from: Eclipse on March 20, 2018, 04:45:22 PM
This is easy, if it isn't in an approved regulation or local supplement, then it's not a "thing"
and shouldn't be enforced.

Best lesson to teach her is not to embellish the written and to quash wive's tales.

The totality of what is required / allowed by NHQ is above.  Anything else is made up.

Thanks, as always, for your help and advice.


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Just a new SM and mom of a CAP kid trying to figure it out one acronym at a time

Spam

It may surprise some of you but i strongly agree with Eclipse on this.  Mrs., the "supplements" he speaks of need to be reviewed and approved by national headquarters. Local units and even Wings (states) just cant make up reaaly cool procedures and enforce them.

Standing up to other peoples efforts to add jots and tittles to what is written is a life skill to learn. People will always try to add their personal spin to compel others to their point of view. It is a human trait that shows up in every religion and every volunteer organization...

Vr
Spam

J2H

The ABU is a "wash and wear" no ironing required, so I never put an iron to my ABUs (from 2008-2012 on Active Duty) and neither do my daughter and I now for CAP.
SSgt Jeffrey Hughes, Squadron NCO
Glenn L. Martin Composite Squadron MD-031
#217169

I_Am_Twigs

Ever since I've got my ABUs I've lightly ironed the collar and any wrinkles that I find, in addition when I roll up my sleeves I usually iron it as I go to give it a sharp look. I agree, the ABU/CFU/BDU uniforms are all field uniforms and you don't need to worry about how they look, but I personally think that only applies in the field. When you're at a weekly meeting or recruiting activity you're going to want to look sharp, therefore giving your uniform touch-ups here and there.

QuoteI have seen a more then a few "shiny circles" on the CFU over the years where buttons were
pressed or ironed under the pockets, but everyone know's CAP is supposed to removed them
and sew them down AMIRITE?

I've always been told that we're allowed to use the pockets as long as the items aren't bulky or visible. Which comes in handy when I need my sewing kit or short ruler  ;D

C/Maj, CAP
"Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." --Winston Churchill

Eclipse

Of course you're allowed to use the pockets.

"That Others May Zoom"

Geber

As far as using pockets go, I've seen videos on youtube that try to give hints to recruits going through AF basic military training. Those videos emphasize that nothing goes in the pockets.

But that's a totally different environment. The recruits are told exactly what they can have and exactly where they can store it. That's not at all like the Air Force after they complete basic training, and it's not at ll like CAP.

I suspect the "empty pockets" idea has escaped from the basic training environment and infested some other environments.

Luis R. Ramos

Ohh, what gives you THAT idea?

Surely it is NOT the comments you read here from some that "nothing goes in your (cargo, BDU blouse) pockets?"

:-\
Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

Eclipse

By no means is there any prohibition regarding using field uniform pockets,
nor requirement to sew them down.  The facetious apparently gets lost on the intertubes.

I do usually pull the buttons and sew mine down (on the shirt) when I'm doing the nametapes.
I haven't gone so far as to cut the sides off, but I  might this time (new stuff sitting
on the bench waiting).

Baggy pockets on the top are just unprofessional, and it's one more thing to get snagged, or whatever.

That's personal preference, not requirement, or even suggestion.  Done poorly it can look
even worse, and for cadets it's another hassle / expense mom doesn't need for something
they probably won't wear more then a year or so.  For olde dudes, I'll have these
for years.

Besides, I keep all my trauma and intubation stuff in one of my three drop-leg medbags.

"That Others May Zoom"

PA Guy


Good grief. This conversation could only take place on CAP Talk. Common sense should tell you that the intent is to simply not look like a rag bag. Don't overthink this. ::) ::) ::)

MrsRoe

Quote from: PA Guy on March 21, 2018, 06:24:25 PM

Good grief. This conversation could only take place on CAP Talk. Common sense should tell you that the intent is to simply not look like a rag bag. Don't overthink this. ::) ::) ::)

I'm not sure there's much overthinking happening but I certainly agree with common sense. I can't really guide my child on how to approach this if I don't fully understand it. We have cadets "marked off" for lack of creases and that burns her butt because she's the granddaughter of cops and airmen so she's a big ole fan of "show me the rule"


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Just a new SM and mom of a CAP kid trying to figure it out one acronym at a time

ALH

I had the inspecting cadets write down detailed notes of 'infractions' during an inspection. They were required to provide me with a regulatory cite for each infraction prior to directing corrective actions. That was required just once or twice before a lot of those "That's what I was taught" reasonings went away or differing intreptations were standardized.

The same goes with a copy of guidance for drill & ceremonies. One cadet leader (senior NCO or officer type) would shadow a flight in drill and look up the movements being made. They had the opportunity to interject and correct proir to me being inclined to do so. If the flight was doing it wrong, and the one directing the marching wasn't being corrected, then it was the job of that advisor to course correct.

Flying Pig

You would have to use an entire bottle of Sta-Flo starch to even begin to have an issue with your uniforms reflecting light to be seen with NVGs  ;D

Eclipse

All I did was wash my uniform Sir...


"That Others May Zoom"

TheSkyHornet

Bear in mind that any military basic training program goes "above and beyond" the regulations as far as prohibited actions. Even if a uniform regulation permits the use of something, in that environment, it's often prohibited. Basic training is meant to standardize everyone under a common thought. Then, "out in the fleet," you'll get the general unit SOPs and best practices.

There's nothing wrong with using pockets. At an Encampment, they might say "You are not to use this pocket." That's just a training tool for standardized discipline. Don't take that home with you. Read the book.