Epaulets for the SM L1/L2

[Norbert]

Hello there!  I am attending a CAP ceremony soon, and have my blues all set out except for epaulets.  What I have gleaned from 39-1 is a little vague on the use of epaulets, whether they are required for the SM without rank in the USAF blues.  I will be wearing the short sleeve option, with no collar insignia or tie.

[HandsomeWalt_USMC]

You want the blank grey epaulet slides. Sets you apart as a SM and not a very old Cadet Airman Basic.

Ref: CAPR 39-1, Pg 129, Fig A5-1
Adult member pursuing officer grade

[Norbert]

Thank you for the response, Handsome.  Are they required, however?  My event is on Tuesday, and it is unlikely I will receive them from Vanguard in time.

[PHall]

Thank you for the response, Handsome.  Are they required, however?  My event is on Tuesday, and it is unlikely I will receive them from Vanguard in time.

Yes, they are required. Just like all of the other insignia on the uniform.

[Shuman 14]

You want the blank grey epaulet slides. Sets you apart as a SM and not a very old Cadet Airman Basic.

Ref: CAPR 39-1, Pg 129, Fig A5-1
Adult member pursuing officer grade

So what if you're not pursuing Officer Grade?

I know it is Enlisted Flight Cap with CAP Crest but a Level 1 who's NCO Rank equivalency hasn't been approved, you'd have slick sleeves and epaulets, correct?

What if you're pursuing no Rank at all, I've been a member of CAP for almost four years now, I've completed Level 1 and all of Level 2 except a Technician Rating and been asked several times to put in for my Military Rank equivalency, but I have no (zero) desire to be anything but a worker bee of the lowest kind.

I'm quite happy to be a SM for my entire CAP career... what should I wear?

FYI, I've never worn an USAF Style Uniform in my life, Polo and Tactical Pants is all I ever wear. I want to do Air Crew someday when I have the time, I'll buy Blue Flight Suits when that happens.

[PHall]

You want the blank grey epaulet slides. Sets you apart as a SM and not a very old Cadet Airman Basic.

Ref: CAPR 39-1, Pg 129, Fig A5-1
Adult member pursuing officer grade

So what if you're not pursuing Officer Grade?

I know it is Enlisted Flight Cap with CAP Crest but a Level 1 who's NCO Rank equivalency hasn't been approved, you'd have slick sleeves and epaulets, correct?

Nope, no CAP crest on the flight cap. That changed in the last change to CAPR 39-1.
The answers to your questions are in the 39-1. But like most uniform regs it can be a challenge to find what you're looking for. AR 670-1 being a prime example...

[HandsomeWalt_USMC]

You want the blank grey epaulet slides. Sets you apart as a SM and not a very old Cadet Airman Basic.

Ref: CAPR 39-1, Pg 129, Fig A5-1
Adult member pursuing officer grade

So what if you're not pursuing Officer Grade?

I know it is Enlisted Flight Cap with CAP Crest but a Level 1 who's NCO Rank equivalency hasn't been approved, you'd have slick sleeves and epaulets, correct?

What if you're pursuing no Rank at all, I've been a member of CAP for almost four years now, I've completed Level 1 and all of Level 2 except a Technician Rating and been asked several times to put in for my Military Rank equivalency, but I have no (zero) desire to be anything but a worker bee of the lowest kind.

I'm quite happy to be a SM for my entire CAP career... what should I wear?

FYI, I've never worn an USAF Style Uniform in my life, Polo and Tactical Pants is all I ever wear. I want to do Air Crew someday when I have the time, I'll buy Blue Flight Suits when that happens.

As a thought exercise this is interesting. SM NCOs now no longer wear the CAP flight cap badge. Just a simple slick enlisted flight cap. So yes, they would just have the grey nametag and any awards they choose to wear along with the enlisted flight cap.

For SMWOG who choose not to accept Officer grade I'd think they would just wear the plain blank epaulet sleeves and officer flight cap and badge. My line of thinking here is that we do not have "enlisted" CAP members and NCO grade is limited to prior service E4 and up.

I recall a female prior service AF Major I knew when I was a wee cadet who went this route. She was a SMWOG and refused to accept CAP rank. She wore Officer type uniforms and insignia but with no grade insignia at all on blues (blank epaulets didn't exist then) and cloth CAP cutouts on BDUs. This worked well enough because aside from the obvious age (she was in her 60s or so), the cutouts on her BDUs were embroidered cloth versus the metal cutouts worn on both collar points by C/ABs at that time. In blues the Officer flight cap and nametag set her apart well enough.

Thanks for the thought exercise, Shuman! I've debated the idea of going NCO after my command term, not because I particularly hold to the "I work for a living" affectation but because I find the idea of a CAP Flying Sergeant with a graduated Commander badge to be amusingly anachronistic. 

[PHall]

You want the blank grey epaulet slides. Sets you apart as a SM and not a very old Cadet Airman Basic.

Ref: CAPR 39-1, Pg 129, Fig A5-1
Adult member pursuing officer grade

So what if you're not pursuing Officer Grade?

I know it is Enlisted Flight Cap with CAP Crest but a Level 1 who's NCO Rank equivalency hasn't been approved, you'd have slick sleeves and epaulets, correct?

What if you're pursuing no Rank at all, I've been a member of CAP for almost four years now, I've completed Level 1 and all of Level 2 except a Technician Rating and been asked several times to put in for my Military Rank equivalency, but I have no (zero) desire to be anything but a worker bee of the lowest kind.

I'm quite happy to be a SM for my entire CAP career... what should I wear?

FYI, I've never worn an USAF Style Uniform in my life, Polo and Tactical Pants is all I ever wear. I want to do Air Crew someday when I have the time, I'll buy Blue Flight Suits when that happens.

As a thought exercise this is interesting. SM NCOs now no longer wear the CAP flight cap badge. Just a simple slick enlisted flight cap. So yes, they would just have the grey nametag and any awards they choose to wear along with the enlisted flight cap.

For SMWOG who choose not to accept Officer grade I'd think they would just wear the plain blank epaulet sleeves and officer flight cap and badge. My line of thinking here is that we do not have "enlisted" CAP members and NCO grade is limited to prior service E4 and up.

I recall a female prior service AF Major I knew when I was a wee cadet who went this route. She was a SMWOG and refused to accept CAP rank. She wore Officer type uniforms and insignia but with no grade insignia at all on blues (blank epaulets didn't exist then) and cloth CAP cutouts on BDUs. This worked well enough because aside from the obvious age (she was in her 60s or so), the cutouts on her BDUs were embroidered cloth versus the metal cutouts worn on both collar points by C/ABs at that time. In blues the Officer flight cap and nametag set her apart well enough.

Thanks for the thought exercise, Shuman! I've debated the idea of going NCO after my command term, not because I particularly hold to the "I work for a living" affectation but because I find the idea of a CAP Flying Sergeant with a graduated Commander badge to be amusingly anachronistic. 

I ended up doing the "NCO Transition" for two reasons. 1. Because I could and the pay is the same. 2. For something to do.
I'm still performing the same duties as I was when I was a Lt Col. There really is no difference.

[Norbert]

Thank you for the insight on my original question.  As it turns out, the event went on without a hitch.  However, I did not receive my epaulets on time and chose my civvies over an incomplete uniform.

I'm chalking this up to my own lack of preparedness, and regard it as a lesson.  Could'a, should'a, would'a, etc.

[supertigerCH]

You want the blank grey epaulet slides. Sets you apart as a SM and not a very old Cadet Airman Basic.

Ref: CAPR 39-1, Pg 129, Fig A5-1
Adult member pursuing officer grade

So what if you're not pursuing Officer Grade?

I know it is Enlisted Flight Cap with CAP Crest but a Level 1 who's NCO Rank equivalency hasn't been approved, you'd have slick sleeves and epaulets, correct?

What if you're pursuing no Rank at all, I've been a member of CAP for almost four years now, I've completed Level 1 and all of Level 2 except a Technician Rating and been asked several times to put in for my Military Rank equivalency, but I have no (zero) desire to be anything but a worker bee of the lowest kind.

I'm quite happy to be a SM for my entire CAP career... what should I wear?

FYI, I've never worn an USAF Style Uniform in my life, Polo and Tactical Pants is all I ever wear. I want to do Air Crew someday when I have the time, I'll buy Blue Flight Suits when that happens.

Shuman 14...  I have been thinking the very same thing for many years now.  There really should be an minor uniform alternative for CAP senior members that (1.) are not pursuing officer grade,(2.) are never going to pursue officer grade... as they have served in very helpful ways for many years, and are content with that as their way of serving. 

Throughout the whole of CAP... their are many members like this -- who serve their squadrons in very helpful ways (driving vehicles, sorting and cleaning equipment, doing supply runs, helping with cadets, etc. etc.)  In most cases, their squadrons appreciate their help & would not want them to leave -- however, many of these members have no desire to pursue higher grade or leadership positions.  They are content at doing what's asked of them... and helping the mission get accomplished. 

It does make sense to have those members who plan to be officers... wear the epaulets without rank on them (until they become officers).  This is a visual way of communicating to fellow CAP members what membership track they are following.  However, those members that are never going to do this... really have no strong reason to wear epaulets. 


Honestly, it would probably make sense for CAP to allow these types of members to wear "CAP Senior Airman" stripes on their sleeves... because this is more accurately the type of service that they are performing.


Do I have any expectation that CAP will do this?  No. 


It does seem like a sensible solution though.  I'm sure other people out there might have even better ideas.  In the mean time, whether it changes or not... we continue mission, and do our jobs... 

[TheSkyHornet]

Honestly, it would probably make sense for CAP to allow these types of members to wear "CAP Senior Airman" stripes on their sleeves... because this is more accurately the type of service that they are performing.

Most of the work people do in CAP is E-4 level work.

[Shuman 14]

So I guess I would like to bring up one of my previous suggestions, that they make all CAP Members Warrant Officers, with their grade contingent on the Level of CAP Education/Professional Development completed:

New Member = Warrant Officer Candidate (Blank Shoulder Board)
Level 1 = Warrant Officer (WO-1 Insignia)
Level 2 = Chief Warrant Officer (WO-2 Insignia)
Level 3 = Chief Warrant Officer (WO-3 Insignia)
Level 4 = Chief Warrant Officer (WO-4 Insignia)
Level 5 = Master Warrant Officer (WO-5 Insignia)

Like the old Army Air Corps and the current Army Aviation Branch, most pilots are WOs, technical experts in their field, but only "in command" of their aircraft.

As the USAF/USSF has no WOs, no one can confuse us for "Regular Officers".

The only concession I'd make to Rank is if you are a "commander", you get to wear Rank appropriate to the Command Position:

Flight Leader = First Lieutenant
Squadron Commander = Captain
Group Commander = Lieutenant Colonel
Wing Commander = Colonel
Region Commander = Colonel
National Commander = Major General

Once you are out of command, back to being a Warrant Officer you go. No NCO's, no advanced promotions for civilian skills and no prior Military Rank. You wear what you earn or for the job you are currently doing, that's it.

Of course, this idea will never be adopted.

[supertigerCH]

Thank you for the insight on my original question.  As it turns out, the event went on without a hitch.  However, I did not receive my epaulets on time and chose my civvies over an incomplete uniform.

I'm chalking this up to my own lack of preparedness, and regard it as a lesson.  Could'a, should'a, would'a, etc.

Happy to hear that you found a solution Norbert! 

Hope all your uniform/items finally arrived.

[SARDOC]

So I guess I would like to bring up one of my previous suggestions, that they make all CAP Members Warrant Officers, with their grade contingent on the Level of CAP Education/Professional Development completed:

New Member = Warrant Officer Candidate (Blank Shoulder Board)
Level 1 = Warrant Officer (WO-1 Insignia)
Level 2 = Chief Warrant Officer (WO-2 Insignia)
Level 3 = Chief Warrant Officer (WO-3 Insignia)
Level 4 = Chief Warrant Officer (WO-4 Insignia)
Level 5 = Master Warrant Officer (WO-5 Insignia)

Like the old Army Air Corps and the current Army Aviation Branch, most pilots are WOs, technical experts in their field, but only "in command" of their aircraft.

As the USAF/USSF has no WOs, no one can confuse us for "Regular Officers".

The only concession I'd make to Rank is if you are a "commander", you get to wear Rank appropriate to the Command Position:

Flight Leader = First Lieutenant
Squadron Commander = Captain
Group Commander = Lieutenant Colonel
Wing Commander = Colonel
Region Commander = Colonel
National Commander = Major General

Once you are out of command, back to being a Warrant Officer you go. No NCO's, no advanced promotions for civilian skills and no prior Military Rank. You wear what you earn or for the job you are currently doing, that's it.

Of course, this idea will never be adopted.

Not really the discussion, but I'm of a similar opinion.

Except, I'd bring back enlisted ranks that don't require previous military service.
I don't think we'd need warrant officer, just keep our Flight Officers, Insignia doesn't necessarily need to change but maybe make them Flight Officer, Technical Flight Officer, Senior Flight Officer, Master Flight Officer and Chief Flight Officer for the levels you suggested.

The officer grades would require more training/education and be tied to key staff positions, but, I'd think after a satisfactory duty assignment you can keep the grade. 

There will be those who don't see the point, but there is something about human nature where people will pursue advancement and make goals for achievements just because there is something attainable like this. It could be a tool to creating more short achievable demonstrable milestones and might prove to be the solution for the engagement that National is seeking to push people through the Education and training system.

But in reality, the pay is the same and it's like "who's line is it anyway" where the points don't really matter. 

[supertigerCH]

So I guess I would like to bring up one of my previous suggestions, that they make all CAP Members Warrant Officers, with their grade contingent on the Level of CAP Education/Professional Development completed:

New Member = Warrant Officer Candidate (Blank Shoulder Board)
Level 1 = Warrant Officer (WO-1 Insignia)
Level 2 = Chief Warrant Officer (WO-2 Insignia)
Level 3 = Chief Warrant Officer (WO-3 Insignia)
Level 4 = Chief Warrant Officer (WO-4 Insignia)
Level 5 = Master Warrant Officer (WO-5 Insignia)

Like the old Army Air Corps and the current Army Aviation Branch, most pilots are WOs, technical experts in their field, but only "in command" of their aircraft.

As the USAF/USSF has no WOs, no one can confuse us for "Regular Officers".

The only concession I'd make to Rank is if you are a "commander", you get to wear Rank appropriate to the Command Position:

Flight Leader = First Lieutenant
Squadron Commander = Captain
Group Commander = Lieutenant Colonel
Wing Commander = Colonel
Region Commander = Colonel
National Commander = Major General

Once you are out of command, back to being a Warrant Officer you go. No NCO's, no advanced promotions for civilian skills and no prior Military Rank. You wear what you earn or for the job you are currently doing, that's it.

Of course, this idea will never be adopted.

i will try... not to go too much farther off the original topic (at least this all started by talking about SM w/out grade)... 


(1.)  @Shuman14 :  haven't heard this particular way suggested before...

(2.)  it's an interesting idea... for how the rank/grade structure could be done as well  (or variations of it, like SARDOC said)

[Shuman 14]

Not really the discussion, but I'm of a similar opinion.

Except, I'd bring back enlisted ranks that don't require previous military service.
I don't think we'd need warrant officer, just keep our Flight Officers, Insignia doesn't necessarily need to change but maybe make them Flight Officer, Technical Flight Officer, Senior Flight Officer, Master Flight Officer and Chief Flight Officer for the levels you suggested.

The officer grades would require more training/education and be tied to key staff positions, but, I'd think after a satisfactory duty assignment you can keep the grade. 

There will be those who don't see the point, but there is something about human nature where people will pursue advancement and make goals for achievements just because there is something attainable like this. It could be a tool to creating more short achievable demonstrable milestones and might prove to be the solution for the engagement that National is seeking to push people through the Education and training system.

But in reality, the pay is the same and it's like "who's line is it anyway" where the points don't really matter. 

Well, there is always thread drift, it is the nature of CAP Talk.

I really don't like the concept of junior enlisted Ranks for CAP. While our interactions with the real Military is rare these days, I don't want some over eager Staff Sergeant rounding up a bunch of enlisted CAP members for a detail. It's the reverse of why they want CAP Officers to have a visibly different Rank insignia so not to confuse us for real Military officers.

I have similar concerns about using Flight Officer Rank for everyone, the shoulder boards for Flight Officers aren't too bad, and you could easily add two more lines to have an insignia for Levels 1 through 5 but the bars for field wear, the three silver lines on a Blue Bar are hard enough to see, imagine a five-line bar?

This is why I recommend the Warrant Officer Insignia.

The USAF had Warrant Officers Insignia for WO-1 through CWO-4, but the last USAF Chief Warrant Officer-4 retired long before the CWO-5 Rank was created. So, if CAP was to use Warrant Officer Rank, we would have to create a CWO-5 Insignia.

USAF Warrant Officers used the Naval Services' style of Insignia with one Gold, two Gold, one Silver and two Silver squares on a colored field, versus the Army one through four black squares on a silver bar Insignia. The USAF used Sky Blue for their field as opposed to the royal blue of the Navy and Coast Guard.

Personally, I'd like us to use the USMC Insignia. The Red on Grey Epaulets would clearly be different from any USAF Officer and on ABUs or OCPs (someday soon), again would stand out from any USAF Officer. The Red would be a historical link to our WWII days, when CAP had a red epaulet sewn onto the USAAF Pinks and Greens uniform and the "berry boards" of the 1980s.

Another reason I suggest Warrant Officer Ranks is that being a Warrant does not require a college degree. As I assume you know, all Commissioned Officer in the real Military are required to hold a bachelor's degree. I've heard that criticism of CAP Officers because we do not.

I understand your point, that if they have a successful command tour, they should be allowed to keep the Rank, it is a valid one. I'd be willing to concede the point, with the caveat that they possess an accredited degree to hold permanent Commissioned Rank, just like the real Military.

Again, I just don't see the CAP culture buying off on this idea, but it is a fun thought problem.

[Shuman 14]

USAF CW-5 Rank

So I have to correct myself. I did a little research and apparently when the last USAFR Chief Warrant Officer, James H. Long, retired in 1992, he was honorarily promoted to CW-5. He is the only person in the USAF/USSF to ever hold that grade.

[PHall]

You know, the ONLY place I have seen this discussed is right here on CAP Talk, usually by the same four or five people. Have never heard it brought up at a Wing/Region/National Conference ever.

So why do you guys keep beating this poor dead horse? What did they do to you?

[supertigerCH]

Well, there is always thread drift, it is the nature of CAP Talk.

I really don't like the concept of junior enlisted Ranks for CAP. While our interactions with the real Military is rare these days, I don't want some over eager Staff Sergeant rounding up a bunch of enlisted CAP members for a detail. It's the reverse of why they want CAP Officers to have a visibly different Rank insignia so not to confuse us for real Military officers.

I have similar concerns about using Flight Officer Rank for everyone, the shoulder boards for Flight Officers aren't too bad, and you could easily add two more lines to have an insignia for Levels 1 through 5 but the bars for field wear, the three silver lines on a Blue Bar are hard enough to see, imagine a five-line bar?

This is why I recommend the Warrant Officer Insignia.

The USAF had Warrant Officers Insignia for WO-1 through CWO-4, but the last USAF Chief Warrant Officer-4 retired long before the CWO-5 Rank was created. So, if CAP was to use Warrant Officer Rank, we would have to create a CWO-5 Insignia.

USAF Warrant Officers used the Naval Services' style of Insignia with one Gold, two Gold, one Silver and two Silver squares on a colored field, versus the Army one through four black squares on a silver bar Insignia. The USAF used Sky Blue for their field as opposed to the royal blue of the Navy and Coast Guard.

Personally, I'd like us to use the USMC Insignia. The Red on Grey Epaulets would clearly be different from any USAF Officer and on ABUs or OCPs (someday soon), again would stand out from any USAF Officer. The Red would be a historical link to our WWII days, when CAP had a red epaulet sewn onto the USAAF Pinks and Greens uniform and the "berry boards" of the 1980s.

Another reason I suggest Warrant Officer Ranks is that being a Warrant does not require a college degree. As I assume you know, all Commissioned Officer in the real Military are required to hold a bachelor's degree. I've heard that criticism of CAP Officers because we do not.

I understand your point, that if they have a successful command tour, they should be allowed to keep the Rank, it is a valid one. I'd be willing to concede the point, with the caveat that they possess an accredited degree to hold permanent Commissioned Rank, just like the real Military.

Again, I just don't see the CAP culture buying off on this idea, but it is a fun thought problem.

The former Air Force Warrant Officer bars (that you described)... are able to be seen at this website: 

https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/if-the-air-force-implements-warrant-officers-what-pitfalls-should-they-avoid-and-lessons-learned-should-they-consider

[supertigerCH]

also in photograph: