Question about O Club

[Short Field]

Standard TDY uniform for officers (almost a bad joke and definitely not a fashion statement):  Polo shirt with collar and tan Dockers.   That should get you in the bar and dining room.  Flight suits and BDUs are "work" uniforms and normally not appropriate for the dining room after 1700.

With the reduction in the size of the military, a lot of O'clubs did not have the numbers to stay open if they just catered to officers.  Hence consolidated clubs.  A lot of the consolidated clubs had separate bars for officers and enlisted.  Makes a lot of sense as you don't really want to be around the source of your work stress as you try to unwind.  It also caused them to opened up the dining room to almost anyone who could legally get on base.  

As to the "social strata", I remember when most bases had "all-ranks" clubs that catered to the lower enlisted as you had to be an NCO to join the NCO club.  The majority of people on base were not NCOs or Officers but young enlised.  The MSgts didn't want to unwind around the A1Cs - or snot-nosed 2nd Lts either.

As to behavoir, Officers are NEVER off duty - reguardless of what uniform or non-uniform is being worn - and expected to act as such.  You are a guest in THEIR club, so behave accordingly.

[Nomex Maximus]

I think I will just try to go off base and find a nice Chinese place or an Outback instead.

[O-Rex]

I specifically asked the organizer of the event if BDUs were OK for the conference and she said yes. The information brochure for it only listed blues or flightsuits but she said BDUs were OK too.

Advice: check with a 'seasoned' member who's been to a conference or two as to the dress code: normally they are service-dress affairs.

As a general rule, keep the right uniform for the right occasion, heaven knows we have enough to choose from..

[Short Field]

I think I will just try to go off base and find a nice Chinese place or an Outback instead.

Then look for the guys in the polo shirts and tan Dockers, cause that is what most TDY officers do as well - especially if they have a few enlisted folks with them on the TDY that they want to join for dinner.   

[MIKE]

I specifically asked the organizer of the event if BDUs were OK for the conference and she said yes. The information brochure for it only listed blues or flightsuits but she said BDUs were OK too.

Advice: check with a 'seasoned' member who's been to a conference or two as to the dress code: normally they are service-dress affairs.

As a general rule, keep the right uniform for the right occasion, heaven knows we have enough to choose from..

You can't go wrong with the minimum basic service uniform or aviator shirt combo.

[Nomex Maximus]

Here is the conference info packet. Note the uniform section on the second page.

[pixelwonk]

small detail: It's an ES/Ops conference.
The multiforms of the day are:
Blues
Alternative CAP Uniforms
Golf Shirts/Gray Pants
CAP/AF Flight Suit

[Flying Pig]

Another thing. The culture of the military has changed a lot. Back inthe day a typical officer was a West Point grad, came from a good,affluent family. Today you have a ;ot of offices that arre prior enlisted that came up through OCS (nyself included) They dont really see a need to segregate themselves rom enlisted folks since they used tobe one. SO, they feel very comfortable chiling with Privates and Specialists and Sergeants. They dont see themselves as "above" enlisteds. whereas in the old days officers thought they were all that.

Also, you talk about dress codes. You have to remember that 2LT's are still young people. They dress pretty much the same as that new Private out of basic. a 22 year old 2Lt is inthe same generation as a 20 year old Private so they have similiarities when it comes to social things.



I was in the Marines.....Officers do not "chill" with enlisted on or off duty.  I dont think anyone saw it as the officer seeing himself as being better.  As an enlisted and later as a Sgt. I really didnt want to "chill" with the officers either.  I wanted to be with other NCO's.

Sure on deployment, the NCO's might have a beer or two with the Plt Commander and socialize for a while but it was professional and in a neutral place.  Then we parted and went our separate ways.  
It has nothing to do with segregation.  I was not in combat as a Marine but I would imagine that if it was going to be important to have that separation, now days would be the time.
So it sounds like your Officer/enlisted culture believes that the only thing different about them is the color of the metal on their collars?  You definition of 20 yr old enlisted and 22 yr old officers being from the same culture is a little off.  It has always been that way. Its not new.  Privates and 2Lt.s have always been similar in ages.   What about the 40 yr old Col. and the 40 yr old Gunny?  Should they hang out also?

Every Plt Commander I have had was prior enlisted and I never got the impression they thought they were better than me.  So in regards to the old days.........Are we talking about the "affluent" "all that" officers who led us through WW2, Korea, Vietnam and Desert Storm?  Most professional NCO's I have known have had the same view regarding the NCO/officer relationship also.  It has always been mutual.  The people who had the problem with it were the ones who didnt like the fact that officers had special privileges.  Thats what they were mad about.

You may want to either read or watch the interviews on combat leadership with Lt. Col Richard Winters who was the person featured in the Band of Brothers series.  Youll find he didnt agree with your view of officers "chilling" with enlisted.  And he was prior enlisted himself.  But that was 60 years ago....I guess kids are different now.  Officers are always held to a higher standard.

As a Plt Sgt. I was the same age as my 1Lt Plt Commander.  I didnt care how he dressed or what his hobbies were and I dont recall him ever asking me.  As much as I liked believing it was "my" platoon, it wasnt.  If the s&*t  hit the fan one day, we were looking to him.  In a year of being together and a deployment I can honestly say never saw him out of uniform.  Just because they may be doing away with NCO and O clubs I dont think is meant to be a green light for everyone to start "chillin" together.

[O-Rex]

The inherent task of the military precludes overfamiliarity between commanders and those he may very well have to send into harm's way.

It's a bit easier, emotionally to send Private Jones on a mission from which he may not return than it is to send "Johnny Jones" your drinking buddy.

It is not a 'class-thing,' it's about balancing your relationship with your subordinates and the needs of the mission, lest you lose objectivity when the time comes to do the job.   

Remember that the essence of the military is doing what others wouldn't want to do, in places they wouldn't want to go: that creates bonds and barriers that are unique to military culture.

[mikeylikey]

About the Flightsuits and BDU's.......if you are flying in perhaps a flightsuit, then something to change into.  At a minimum, this is supposed to be a professional conference, lets wear polos and such as we will be inside, and we really should not be wearing flightsuits to bars and restaurants off base anyway.  Poor choice on the planners part.  (YES....I am not attending, but I did speak in the first person, to carry my thoughts....or was that the second person?)  Let us know how the event went anyway........get as much out of it as possible.  If you can "acquire" powerpoints and electronic media if available to take.  We like to share resources around here.  HAVE A GREAT WEEKEND!

[Nomex Maximus]

The inherent task of the military precludes overfamiliarity between commanders and those he may very well have to send into harm's way.

It's a bit easier, emotionally to send Private Jones on a mission from which he may not return than it is to send "Johnny Jones" your drinking buddy.

It is not a 'class-thing,' it's about balancing your relationship with your subordinates and the needs of the mission, lest you lose objectivity when the time comes to do the job.   

Remember that the essence of the military is doing what others wouldn't want to do, in places they wouldn't want to go: that creates bonds and barriers that are unique to military culture.

OK, this may be straying from the topic,  but speaking as a civilian who wears a CAP uniform, this whole "officers don't fraternize with subordinates" is totally bogus. If military people can't figure out when to turn the rank thing on and off then well, I think they have got some major problems. I know, I know, the military has been doing things this way for thousands of years, and I am just a civilian who doesn't understand, blah blah blah... it's all totally bogus. I would expect a whole lot more from a 21 century  American military professional whether he/she be a private or a general than for them to have to resort to silliness like not being able to go to the bar after work and chat over a beer.

All Americans are equals and all CAP and all military are supposed to be profesionals and we should be able to know when respect and obedience is required and when it isn't. I think it's time the military moved away from 18th century customs and meshed with 21st century social standards.

Just my opinion.

[Short Field]

The inherent task of the military precludes overfamiliarity between commanders and those he may very well have to send into harm's way.

A bit of separation helps ensure that your troops trust your fairness in deciding which ones get the bad jobs vs the better jobs - because you have no "buds" to take care of.  When the cow droppings really hit the fan, most of us don't really want our commander to be "just like us" but to actually be the greatest military leader since Alexander - and makes all the right decisions that gets our butts safely out of a jam.
   

[SarDragon]

The inherent task of the military precludes overfamiliarity between commanders and those he may very well have to send into harm's way.

It's a bit easier, emotionally to send Private Jones on a mission from which he may not return than it is to send "Johnny Jones" your drinking buddy.

It is not a 'class-thing,' it's about balancing your relationship with your subordinates and the needs of the mission, lest you lose objectivity when the time comes to do the job.   

Remember that the essence of the military is doing what others wouldn't want to do, in places they wouldn't want to go: that creates bonds and barriers that are unique to military culture.

OK, this may be straying from the topic,  but speaking as a civilian who wears a CAP uniform, this whole "officers don't fraternize with subordinates" is totally bogus. If military people can't figure out when to turn the rank thing on and off then well, I think they have got some major problems. I know, I know, the military has been doing things this way for thousands of years, and I am just a civilian who doesn't understand, blah blah blah... it's all totally bogus. I would expect a whole lot more from a 21 century  American military professional whether he/she be a private or a general than for them to have to resort to silliness like not being able to go to the bar after work and chat over a beer.

All Americans are equals and all CAP and all military are supposed to be profesionals and we should be able to know when respect and obedience is required and when it isn't. I think it's time the military moved away from 18th century customs and meshed with 21st century social standards.

Just my opinion.

Wel, having been in or around the military culture all my life, I can say that it's not bogus. I pretty much agree with O-Rex's comments.

Corporate structures are more similar to the military than you think. Joe Schmuckatelli down in the mail room is rarely on a first name basis with the CEO. In fact, they have probably never met. The larger the company, the more likely this is true. So this is not a military only practice.

As for the bolded statement, many military people can't do just exactly what you expect, especially the enlisted folks. They seem to think that if they can share a beer with an officer at a unit social event, that they are instantly on a first name basis 24/7. T'aint so.

I learned very early in life, as a Navy Junior, that there was a pecking order, and there were time when it was strictly observed, and time when it was loosened up.  As an enlisted person, I had a number of officer friends; a couple were even in my chain of command. We shared first names in civilian clothes, and maintained the proper military courtesies when either or both of us were in uniform. Many folks can't sem to maintain that distinction.

In CAP, my wing commander is always Colonel Whoever, until I'm invited to use first names. Even then, I restrict that practice to a SM only environment.

These practices are a part of the culture, and I'm not sure they need to change.

YMMV.

[Flying Pig]

by Nomex Maximus....

I am just a civilian who doesn't understand, blah blah blah...

You nailed it right there.  Good job.

[Nomex Maximus]

Actually, in corporate culture, it IS entirely appropriate for the CEO and the mailroom guy to be on a first name basis. In fact, desirable for many reasons. Most advertise that they have an open door policy. But even so, an employee is supposed to know when to go to his supervisor about a problem and when to go to the head of the company. And I am pretty sure I wouldn't want to work in a company where the management felt they were somehow socially superior... wait a minute, I DID work for a comany like that -  Raytheon! And I walked off that job after about six months of that nonsense.

[flyguy06]

Another thing. The culture of the military has changed a lot. Back inthe day a typical officer was a West Point grad, came from a good,affluent family. Today you have a ;ot of offices that arre prior enlisted that came up through OCS (nyself included) They dont really see a need to segregate themselves rom enlisted folks since they used tobe one. SO, they feel very comfortable chiling with Privates and Specialists and Sergeants. They dont see themselves as "above" enlisteds. whereas in the old days officers thought they were all that.

Also, you talk about dress codes. You have to remember that 2LT's are still young people. They dress pretty much the same as that new Private out of basic. a 22 year old 2Lt is inthe same generation as a 20 year old Private so they have similiarities when it comes to social things.

hold up, wait, wait, Wait, hang on there!  I am going to have to make a stand against everything you just typed.  First, West Point (great as it may be) has never produced the number of Officers that ROTC/OCS/Direct produces (since what.....1920), so the assumption that Officers used to be more affluent and came from better families, although true when Commissions were sold in this country, no longer has merit. 

thats the time period I am referring to. secondly, Do you realize how many Prince hall masons are in the Army in both the enlisted and officer ranks? Every time I get deployed I see Officers that are Masons and I see NCO's thatare Masons. When they have boat rides or get togethers they are all there. Now obviously during work hours, its a different situation. When I was enlisted in the regular Army as an E4, I would "chill " with my Fraternity brothers all the time. My brothers were Colnels, majors and one was a two star (didnt see him much though). Marines do it to. I have a frat brother who is a Marine Corp Major. heck, my cousin is a USMC Captain.
Anyway, now that I am onthe officer side of the house I have enlisted friends not in my chain of command that I socialize with. have you been to OBC lately? Fresh out of colleg eLT's wear baggy pants just like fresh out of basic Privates. They listen to hip hop, they go out drinking. I have been to basic tarining and I have been to IOBC. Off duty there is little difference.

[flyguy06]

Finally, that generation thing you stressed about the similarities between junior Officers and junior Enlisted.  I don't buy that.  Sure people like similar things, but when it comes down to it, those two (the 2LT and Private) will NEVER be found at an all night Beer-Pong tourney together, will most likely not even run into each other unless they are getting gas on Post. 

What is Beer pong? Have you ever been on a boat-ride?

[O-Rex]

We've strayed off-topic a bit, but Nomex, I'm not giving an opinion, I'm simply stating fact regarding the mindset of Officer/Enlisted and/or Senior/subordinate relationships in the Military. 

Admittedly, CAP culture in this regard is a bit 'watered-down,' given some of our unique characteristics, i.e., Maj's and Lt. Col's assigned to units commanded by 1st Lt's, but our organization and the Air Force to which we are affiliated are founded by the same men who were the very embodiment of these principles.

If you think the U.S. Military is socially stratified, you should spend some time with foreign military-much more formal, and lines more clearly drawn.

You can agree with it or not, but if you want to hang out in the military community, O-club or wherever, you need to understand the culture and mind-set of it's members.  If not, you will feel out of place, and present a somewhat awkward presence, invoking snickers and an unkind comment or two from the card-carrying members.

We mean no offense, just friendly advice from those wear (or wore) a uniform for a living.

[Nomex Maximus]

We've strayed off-topic a bit, but Nomex, I'm not giving an opinion, I'm simply stating fact regarding the mindset of Officer/Enlisted and/or Senior/subordinate relationships in the Military. 

Admittedly, CAP culture in this regard is a bit 'watered-down,' given some of our unique characteristics, i.e., Maj's and Lt. Col's assigned to units commanded by 1st Lt's, but our organization and the Air Force to which we are affiliated are founded by the same men who were the very embodiment of these principles.

If you think the U.S. Military is socially stratified, you should spend some time with foreign military-much more formal, and lines more clearly drawn.

You can agree with it or not, but if you want to hang out in the military community, O-club or wherever, you need to understand the culture and mind-set of it's members.  If not, you will feel out of place, and present a somewhat awkward presence, invoking snickers and an unkind comment or two from the card-carrying members.

We mean no offense, just friendly advice from those wear (or wore) a uniform for a living.

I am just trying to fit in socially in this strange situation I find myself in. That is why I am asking.

I am a civilian who is "sort of" associated with the AF, who wears an AF style uniform and its just weird at times. I am 48 but I am wearing BDUs with 2d Lt on them. Anyone else who wears a uniform has been doing it night and day for months or years and knows all of the rules and expectations. Me, I just put this thing on when I go to a meeting here or there. Once in a while I find myself on a military base and then I really feel out of place because there are all these weird rules/customs/courtesies that make little sense to me personally but which are highly important to the military folks around me.

Like really, can you imagine Outback or Applebees or Olive Garden or any other restaurant chain turning away customers because they showed up not wearing a coat and tie to dinner? I mean when I worked at McDonnell-Douglas years ago it was common for us to go out to lunch at the executive dining room and have lunch with the top execs - had lunch once with John himself. Not a big deal in the civilian world but apparently a big deal in the military world.

I know, I could just wear the golf shirt, but in my mind that is even worse. And I don't *do* suits or ties. It's a BDU uniform or blue jeans for me.

I will see how things go at the conference and just try to fit in.

--NM

[O-Rex]

NM:

I'm going to let you in on a little secret-I know of some high ranking folks, military and CAP, who've spent years successfully climbing the ladder, and when they put on a uniform with all the frosting & sprinkles and check themselves in the mirror, they still  think to themselves "Gee, is that really me?"

Don't let the costumes or the pomp & circumstance thow you-just relax, be yourself, and enjoy.