Question about O Club

[SAR-EMT1]

Mid-1980s was about the last time an Officer could afford to go to the O'Club and get "shloshed" - if he had a designated driver or could walk home.  By the 1990s, you were taking your career in your hands even if you had a designated driver.  Most people I know went to the "two drinks then home" rule.

The 1970's were nice.....

Want to expand on that last? 

[star1151]

It was a *JOKE*. An attempt at *HUMOR*. Get it? *SHEESH*. If I didn't have any respect for the military I wouldn't be asking about appropriate coutesies at a military club. Why don't you go to your nearest O-club and get shloshed. You need to *RELAX*. Chill, baby.

It's not funny.  And neither is suggesting that ANYONE, much less a pilot, get "shloshed" somewhere.  And I'd appreciate it if you did not refer to me as "baby".  Would you do that at work or in a CAP activity?  I think not.

[JohnKachenmeister]

So would it be better for CAP types to use the main dining room / bar or the smaller dining room / bar ? .... wish they covered O-Club Ettiquite 101 in ROTC 

Oh, Heck no!  Go into the side bar.  That's where everybody is.  Have a beer, relax, chat.  You will find that the RM officers will have a LOT of questions about CAP. 

The only people you will find in the main bar and the dining room are the old retired colonels and the widows (looking for a single old retired colonel).

[mikeylikey]

The only people you will find in the main bar and the dining room are the old retired colonels and the widows (looking for a single old retired colonel).

Jackpot baby!  Easy life here I come!

[Nomex Maximus]

It's not funny.  And neither is suggesting that ANYONE, much less a pilot, get "shloshed" somewhere.  And I'd appreciate it if you did not refer to me as "baby".  Would you do that at work or in a CAP activity?  I think not.

We are talking about the O-Club. They drink there, don't they?

And, in response to your question, actually I might. If I thought the person in question had a sense of humor. I went back and redacted the posting, but we are a tad bit uptight, aren't we?

Chill, esteemed fellow CAP member.

[JohnKachenmeister]

OK, this may be straying from the topic,  but speaking as a civilian who wears a CAP uniform, this whole "officers don't fraternize with subordinates" is totally bogus. If military people can't figure out when to turn the rank thing on and off then well, I think they have got some major problems.

As the daughter of two Navy officers and sister of a USMC officer, I can say that it's certainly NOT bogus and there for a good reason.   You already got an explanation of why it's not, but I figured I'd throw in my agreement.  Spend some time in the military as enlisted or an officer and you'll see that's it's a different world.  Maybe it seems normal to me because I grew up around it, but I cannot imagine going into an O-club wearing BDU's and acting like it's some throwback to the 20's.  Respect the culture, even if you don't agree with it.  If you can't respect it, don't get involved.

Actually, in corporate culture, it IS entirely appropriate for the CEO and the mailroom guy to be on a first name basis. In fact, desirable for many reasons. Most advertise that they have an open door policy.

You're talking two different things.  My manager has an open door policy.  Does that mean I can fly to headquarters and pop in on the CEO?  No.  Why in the world would that be desirable?  Clearly, our culture is working for us (if you knew who I worked for you, you'd agree), and I wouldn't have it any other way.

And I am pretty sure I wouldn't want to work in a company where the management felt they were somehow socially superior... wait a minute, I DID work for a comany like that -  Raytheon! And I walked off that job after about six months of that nonsense.

Stratification does NOT mean superiority in the least. 

Frankly, in my civilian job, fraternization is frowned upon.  Blurs the lines of authority, just like in the military.  I have two employees who report to me, who want to be my best friend, but it just doesn't work that way.  Be too familiar with an employee, and you'll find them refusing to do something because they think they can get away with it.

BTW, as someone who once quit a job because she was being harassed for being a college grad, I can say that the non-management folks can dish it out just as much as they claim management does.

Nope. Sorry. Don't agree. The reason the military does it the way they do it is because they have always done it that way. They have no experience trying it any other way, so they don't know if their way is the only way that will work. Since they have an adequate working system in place they have no reason to think about trying to change it.

I have great difficulty believing that a real leader and a real set of professionals working together cannot figure out when it's time to act military and when it's time to act normal, when it's time for formal procedures and when it's time to relax. Sort of like doctors and nurses in an ER. Imagine a military where people didn't have to shout at each other to get things done...

The reason I don't pal around with the guy two or three levels above me in the org chart is that he and I don't really have much of anything in common work wise. He does spreadsheets and powerpoint presentations and I do engineering. Now, if he had regular reason to come over to my desk and interact with me, then I would have no problem inviting him along for lunch, etc. No social stratification and no problems because of fraternization. In fact, if he was frequently interacting with me but then gave off a vibe of "don't socialize or associate with me", well, I would likely start putting empty pizza cartons, cigarette butts and empty beer bottles in his office after hours. And "water" his potted plants. Just like I did at Raytheon...

Are you even reading any of these posts?  Or do you simply reject any that don't fit your preconceived notions?

First of all, I never shout at anyone.  I am an officer and a gentleman.  The ONLY time I might shout is to make sure my orders were heard over the background noise, like explosions and gunfire.  If one of my NCO's has to shout at someone more than once, it is time that the NCO referred that troop for higher-level discipline.  

Secondly, there ARE times when roles are relaxed.  I cited a few.  Others include medical teams, aircrews, and similar small units where officers and NCO's work in close harmony.
Also, if an officer does not have a close relationship with his top NCO, such that they can close the door and relax over coffee together, the unit will be somewhat non-harmonious.  There is officer business, sergeant's business, and a time to sit down and chat informally about both.

Third, the military is ALWAYS experimenting with new management techniques, and is open to such experimentation.  Every so often civilians discover that military managements still works better than anything some MBA can come up with, and the experiments the military has employed have seldom worked in the long-term.

I mean, if we were not open to experimentation, how do you explain Carlson's Raiders in the Marine Corps in the Makin Island operation?

[Nomex Maximus]

I am reading the posts.

The military I remember was full of shouting. Threats and violence. Occasional deaths in training. Sorry, but that is what my memory has. I was enlisted.

In any event, we have been discussing the issue of segregated social situations which frankly are *weird* and unnatural to civilians. Segregated social situations which have been obsolete in modern American culture for decades. And since most CAP members are essentially civilians, this takes some explaining to understand how to fit in correctly when we are around the military.

It is not unreasonable for me to question military ways. It does not make me unpatriotic, anti-military, a communist or even a poor CAP member to do so. And simply because I do not have a career in the military does not disqualify me from being able to voice an opinion about how it might better be done.

The fact that this discussion generates so much internet heat is just the reason why we needed to ask about how to fit in. I can't imagine showing up at a bar/restaurant/dining hall and being told to leave because I was in the *wrong uniform*  - that I am not dressed up *enough*, or being told that I should not *fraternize* with people of *lower rank* because doing so might generate a huge rip in the space-time continuum.

[Short Field]

I can't imagine showing up at a bar/restaurant/dining hall and being told to leave because I was in the *wrong uniform*  - that I am not dressed up *enough*

I am sure you are in fine company with the millions and millions of good and upstanding people that also shared your dining experiences.  However, there are many restaurants that do have a dress code - of which a coat & tie is the minimum.  I have eaten at several resturants here in the US where I had to wear a "loaner" tie and jacket because my bags were delayed or I didn't expect to need to be that dressed up.  When I lived in Europe, I ended up having to buy a "smoker" to attend various social functions.  I literally wore it out and am now on my second one.   A "smoker" is what they call a tuxedo and they use it to dress up and go out partying.   

The O'Club is the Officers' club and as such, they can expect any level of decorum they desire - especially from their Guests.   They only want to make enough money to break even, not make a profit.

[mikeylikey]

I am reading the posts.

The military I remember was full of shouting. Threats and violence. Occasional deaths in training. Sorry, but that is what my memory has. I was enlisted.

In any event, we have been discussing the issue of segregated social situations which frankly are *weird* and unnatural to civilians. Segregated social situations which have been obsolete in modern American culture for decades. And since most CAP members are essentially civilians, this takes some explaining to understand how to fit in correctly when we are around the military.

It is not unreasonable for me to question military ways. It is not make me unpatriotic, anti-military, a communist or even a poor CAP member to do so. And simply because I do not have a career in the military does not disqualify me from being able to voice an opinion about how it might better be done.

The fact that this discussion generates so much internet heat is just the reason why we needed to ask about how to fit in. I can't imagine showing up at a bar/restaurant/dining hall and being told to leave because I was in the *wrong uniform*  - that I am not dressed up *enough*, or being told that I should not *fraternize* with people of *lower rank* because doing so might generate a huge rip in the space-time continuum.

That is exactly why the first part of a new CAP members training should be on par with what Cadets-Junior Officers are expected to learn.  That is, what the military is, how it operates, who does what, customs and traditions etc.  The AFIADL Courses are just not up to snuff for what the organization needs.  We are recruiting some very fine people, we make them Officers, the AF allows them to be Officers, lets teach-learn-mentor on what being an Officer both in the military and CAP is all about.  

So, change initial CAP specific training.  Get Air University to write up a new program for CAP Officers.  

[star1151]

I can't imagine showing up at a bar/restaurant/dining hall and being told to leave because I was in the *wrong uniform*  - that I am not dressed up *enough*

Clearly you've never been to a nice restaurant.  I'm trying to imagine showing up at, say, the Drake Hotel, or the Mansion on Turtle Creek in shorts and a t-shirt.  Or even khakis and a t-shirt.  You'd be asked to leave and it's not all that uncommon and no restricted to very expensive locations.  I've rarely  been at a business dinner where there WASN'T a dress code and I've seen people turned away.  Private businesses such as bars and restaurants can require a dress code and are within their rights to turn people away.  Even Wal-Mart requires shirt and shoes.  Dressing decently at the O-Club is simply an extension of that.  I think what we're seeing here is classism, just not in the way most are used to seeing it.

Edited for weird typo.

[Ned]

It is not unreasonable for me to question military ways. It is not make me unpatriotic, anti-military, a communist or even a poor CAP member to do so.

John,

Of course you are free to question the military.

But it does seem a little odd to accept the hospitality of the O-Club as an invited guest while simultaneously denouncing their social policies as "totally bogus," "weird and unnatural," and while suggesting that those officers who choose to follow such policies "have some major problems."

It just seems a little rude to bitterly criticise your hosts while seeking an invitation to their club.  I suspect that is what folks are reacting to.

And it also seems a little odd that as a former service member you are professing such a lack of knowledge about the military club system.  I cannot imagine anyone who has served claiming to be as unfamiliar with the club system as you have suggested you are -- even if they were critical of the club system while in the service.

Thank you for your service, BTW.


Ned Lee
Retired Army Officer

[Nomex Maximus]

Clearly you've never been to a nice restaurant.  I'm trying to imagine showing up at, say, the Drake Hotel, or the Mansion at Turtle Creek in shorts and a t-shirt.  Or even khakis and a t-shirt.  You'd be asked to leave and it's not all that uncommon and no restricted to very expensive locations.  I've rarely  been at a business dinner where there WASN'T a dress code and I've seen people turned away.  Private businesses such as bars and restaurants can require a dress code and are within their rights to turn people away.  Even Wal-Mart requires shirt and shoes.  Dressing decently at the O-Club is simply an extension of that.  I think what we're seeing here is classism, just not in the way most are used to seeing it.

I have been to such restaurants; I can't imagine ever wanting to go again. I have better things to waste my money on than overpriced restaurants. I also don't do country clubs, not even the one I live next door to.

I am not arguing about dressing nicely. The point of this thread was to understand what would be needed to be done by CAP folk if they go to one of these places. I wasn't about to show up in NMUs (Nomex Maximus Uniform - sandals, BDU pants, hawaiian shirt, flight cap) and demand service. My angst is not with the dress code, it is with perpetuating outdated ideas of separation of personnel by rank. And again, I wasn't about to try and get into the enlisted club or the NCO club if I wasn't wanted there. I really just wnated to know where would be a good place to eat when I was away at this upcoming ES conference.

If I can find a way to fit in I will.

[Nomex Maximus]

It is not unreasonable for me to question military ways. It is not make me unpatriotic, anti-military, a communist or even a poor CAP member to do so.

. . .

But it does seem a little odd to accept the hospitality of the O-Club as an invited guest while simultaneously denouncing their social policies as "totally bogus," "weird and unnatural," and while suggesting that those officers who choose to follow such policies "have some major problems."

It just seems a little rude to bitterly criticise your hosts while seeking an invitation to their club.  I suspect that is what folks are reacting to.

. . .


Ned Lee
Retired Army Officer

I wasn't seeking an invitation. I haven't been invited. If invited, I will ask if I can fit in, if they say yes, then great. If they say no, then I will do it another time. I have no desire to cause a problem. I just want to eat.

[PA Guy]

I really just wnated to know where would be a good place to eat when I was away at this upcoming ES conference.

That's easy. Do what the vast majority of the personnel assigned to the base do. Go to the mess hall or go off base to the establishment of your choice. Most "O Clubs" are boring and overrated anyway.

[Hawk200]

The military I remember was full of shouting. Threats and violence. Occasional deaths in training. Sorry, but that is what my memory has. I was enlisted.

NM, sorry to be blunt, but that military that you were enlisted in doesn't exist anymore. Those old hazing practices, and the deaths related to people just being stupid do not happen with the frequency that they did, and they are certainly not accepted by an honorable chain of command. That military no longer exists. Every now and then, you'll see things on the news or magazines or the various services Times' newspapers on what happens when those things do occur. It's never pleasant.

I'm only about a year short of twenty when it comes to the service. I've never heard of the practices and actions you describe ever occurring. I've never known it to happen to anyone I knew, nor knew anyone with first-hand knowledge of it. I think most of the folks on this board that are still serving or retired in the last few years probably haven't heard of it either.

Yes, people still get dressed down for not paying attention. They get the same treatment for not doing the right thing. But they don't end up threatened with violence for that nowdays. A soldier might get "smoked", but it's actual PT, not torture. As for what it reinforces, that's a different debate entirely. They don't get hit, or beaten, or half drowned, or forced to do damage to themselves. The wall to wall counseling has been found to be rather ineffective. Many things have changed.

Now there are things that have not changed. Fraternization is still not beneficial to the good order of a military organization. Look up the original definition of "pogue" on Wikipedia. The exact concept may not apply now, but the loss in discipline in a unit from the perceptions is still there. If some enlisted see others getting favorable treatment, it affects their morale. And that is why the rules of fraternization still exist. Even if there is only appearance, it affects the entire unit. That is why that "old guard" thinking still exists. It has reason, and legitimate effect.

[SAR-EMT1]

Just wanted to say:
I am supposed to go to Scott tomorrow afternoon for my CLC.
However, while i did get a letter giving directions to the base and to the CAP building on base, it merely says to show my CAP membership card at the gate, and says nothing about anything else. Someone else mentioned an "MSA" ... Im guessing I didnt get one, as I have no idea what it is.

So I would ask: do I need to obtain something else other then my CAP ID and a good attitude to use the Club?
Thanks

[PA Guy]

MSA= Military Support Authorization.  It authorizes use of base facilities such as billeting, mess hall, BX for other than uniform items and O Club.  It there isn't an MSA I would avoid using any of the facilities.  Check with the project officer to determine if there is a MSA for this activity.

[AlphaSigOU]

Just remember the current mantra that's going through the RealAirForce® - 0-0-1-3

0 drinks if you are under 21

0 DUIs

1 alcoholic drink per hour

3 alcoholic drinks maximum per evening

I was over at the (in)famous Auger Inn at the Randolph AFB O-Club last weekend for the air show (I was part of the GA-8 CAP flight crew), and while there are mementos of the olden days of wild alcohol-filled debauchery (such as the crud table and the beer-powered ejection seat, among other things) the post-airshow cordial was pretty sedate. No one got schnockered, sloshed or out-and-out wasted, especially not with the Randolph Wing King in attendance and the very real possibility of Security Forces waiting outside the O-Club to nail DUIs.

[PHall]

and the very real possibility of Security Forces waiting outside the O-Club to nail DUIs.

That's no "possibility", that's a certainty. It's the "no mistakes" military these days.