What is "playing soldier?"

[RogueLeader]

They're anywhere from 13-16 on average.  Being called up in front of all of their fellow cadets, family members, and the Senior Staff.  Being able to walk up with pride, offer a crisp salute to the commanding officer or higher.  These are the things that will live in these kids minds forever. 

So, NO I won't just pat them on the back and say good job.  And neither should anyone else...

Thank you.

[Nomex Maximus]

They're anywhere from 13-16 on average.  Being called up in front of all of their fellow cadets, family members, and the Senior Staff.  Being able to walk up with pride, offer a crisp salute to the commanding officer or higher.  These are the things that will live in these kids minds forever. 

So, NO I won't just pat them on the back and say good job.  And neither should anyone else...

When they get their DPM then I will salute.

[Nomex Maximus]

^^ like I said about our Military background, and all about them- not you.  When the Mil does a slap on the back during the ceremony, I'll give it some thought.  BTW this is the point, it appears that you want nothing to deal with the mil in CAP.  Like it or not, IT IS HERE. Deal with it.

I am happy to deal with the military. Give me a job to do that needs to be done and which I can do and I will do it. I am not a mindless military automaton. I am a thinking civilian with the right to have and express an opinion. The military does NOT have a monopoly on professionalism, service to the country or heroism. Not everything the military does is a good idea. In fact, lots of things the military does are really BAD ideas. Deal with it.

[Eagle400]

Not everything the military does is a good idea. In fact, lots of things the military does are really BAD ideas.

Like disqualifying people for things such as depression and anxiety.   

[RogueLeader]

And giving people the right to say things when they are wrong and hurtful to the country.  Hmm, I might want to be careful of I say to those who defend our freedoms.

And no, this is not to any particular member, or types of members. . .

[IceNine]

When they get their DPM then I will salute.

You were never asked to salute, it means nothing if its done out of spite.

You were simply asked to don a uniform appropriate to the ceremony being conducted and stand, without motion long enough for things to be about the recipient of whatever award they may be receiving.  It requires no response, simply a small amount of respect for the Customs side that the United States Air Force Auxiliary Officers have been fighting for over the course of the last 65+ years.

You wouldn't be able to do ES, which as you have expressed is the only thing that keeps you here, without the Military side of this program.  PERIOD

There would be no Money to fly, no insurance to search on the ground, and no respect from the organizations that request us as a federal asset.

So, like it or not it's part of the program.  Choose to agree with the military or not, fight the notion all you want you are a Military Automaton at least in part because there is no way for you to continue on the missions that have been assigned to us, that we can do, without doing exactly what the air force says we will do in CAP-USAF INSTRUCTION 10-2701. 

[JohnKachenmeister]

Obviously, Nomex, your attitude rejects the deep traditions of the military and the CAP.  I've been around a lot longer, in CAP since 1963, except for the years I spent, in your words, "Playing soldier" with the RealMilitary and carrying out all those "Bad ideas" of the military.  The majority of us draw strength and inspiraton from those traditions.

Traditions, basicly, boil down to one rule:  "Any time a policy, procedure, practice, or offhand comment survives combat, it becomes a Tradition."  

You ask, "What in the hell a military auxiliary is," and this is also indicative of your atitude.  

Let me sum it up for you.

CAP started out exactly like what you describe... civilian pilots not wearing uniforms that flew for Civil Defense and did what they could for the war effort.  Part of "Doing what they could" was an observe-and-report patrol for German U-Boats off the Atlantic and Gulf coasts.  There were a few incidents in which German subs were spotted, but there were no armed forces units available to attack them.

One of these incidents occurred off Florda.  In that incident, the pilot of the CAP plane was a former Air Corps pilot who personally knew Hap Arnold.  When he told the story of the escape of the German to Arnold, Arnold ordered that CAP planes be armed.  To do that, CAP was transfered from Civil Defense to the Army Air Corps as an auxiliary.  CAP members were outfitted with Air Corps uniforms, assigned honorary rank, formed into squadrons, and their personal planes were fitted with specially-designed bomb racks.  It took from May, 1942 to April, 1943 to complete the process of arming CAP, but on 29 April 1943 CAP moved from being hunters to being killers.

In the next 94 days, CAP attacked 57 enemy submarines, sinking 2.  The enemy was forced to withdraw from coastal raids, and change tactics, opting instead for "Wolf Pack" tactics out at sea beyond the range of our aircraft.

So, Nomex, CAP was in one battle and it was a decisive victory.  CAP was the first irregular American military force to engage and defeat an enemy force since the War of 1812.

This established a tradition that CAP is, and will always be, an integral part of the US Air Force.  We still are, although the technology has advanced to the point that our planes are pretty useless in combat operations now.  We do fly support missions for the Air Force, with SAR being one of the most important and visible.

As a part of the Air Force, we share their traditions.  We do have special insignia on our uniforms that designate us as the auxiliary, and frankly, I'm very comfortable with them.  We have earned those special insignia.

If you are uncomfortable in the military, if you cannot accept the traditions of the military that go back centuries, if you are so arrogant that you think you know better than all of us  how service to the nation should be accomplished, then you will never be a part of the team.  

Get with the program, or get into some organization where the progarm is more to your liking.

[Nomex Maximus]

Obviously, Nomex, your attitude rejects the deep traditions of the military and the CAP.  I've been around a lot longer, in CAP since 1963, except for the years I spent, in your wods, "Playing soldier" with the RealMilitary and carrying out all those "Bad ideas" of the military.  The majority of us draw strength and inspiraton from those traditions.

Traditions, basicly, boil down to one rule:  "Any time a policy, procedure, practice, or offhand comment survives combat, it becomes a Tradition."  

. . .

If you are uncomfortable in the military, if you cannot accept the traditions of the military that go back centuries, if you are so arrogant that you think you know better than all of us  how service to the nation should be accomplished, then you will never be a part of the team.  

Get with the program, or get into some organization where the progarm is more to your liking.

A classic shortcoming of the military - "How dare you think that you could have a better idea than the military!" Thanks, but I am quite very capable of having lots of better ideas than the military. That is why I have been working as an engineer on defense projects for the past 20 years - I am paid to have better ideas than the military.

"Traditions, basicly, boil down to one rule:  "Any time a policy, procedure, practice, or offhand comment survives combat, it becomes a Tradition."  "

John, I really hope that what you just wrote there was an attempt at humor. If it wasn't well... I wouldn't know where to begin to debunk it...

If you think we exist primarily to honor traditions then we have a fundamental disagreement, as I believe the only good reason for us to exist is whether or not we serve the needs of the country well.

I am not an evil person. I fully support CAP in its attempt to serve the country. I just wish to do the job that really needs to be done and avoid the nonsense that seems to go with it. Claiming that the alleged nonsense is "tradition" does not make it any more valuable to me. Sorry but I am here to do a job not to play soldier.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Well, your contempt for the military and its traditions are obvious, and I don't like it.  I find it insulting.  Tradition is an important part of the military, we respect it, and draw strength from it.  From why the Old Guard and the Devil Dogs got their names, through the manner of toasting at banquets, to the places persons stand in formations, all are drawn from our heritage. 

[IceNine]

There is no argument that we must serve a purpose to be viable.

The point that you refuse to see is that all three of the missions we are tasked with serve the country.  Some are more visible to Joe Blow citizen.  But none are any less important.

Us teaching the Xbox generation the value of respect, integrity, and history, through time honored traditions prepare this country for the future.  If that means we have to grin and bare it as we march (walk in straight lines) up to someone and instead of shaking their hand we put that hand to our eyebrow...So be it.

Pressing my BDU's before I go out on a ground search and rescue mission may be a little ridiculous, but when I am talking with little Jimmy's mommy and she is telling me about her son, not wearing a wrinkled blouse (long sleeved, lightweight jacket) will instill a level of subliminal security in her mind.

Call is tradition, call it stupid military nonsense, call it what you want.  It all serves a purpose, maybe not globally right this second but, it does serve a purpose.

That one little bolt that you tell the AF they need to put in their laser guidance systems, does not make the thing work but I'm sure it makes it stronger.  And thats all that matters

[Nomex Maximus]

Well, your contempt for the military and its traditions are obvious, and I don't like it.  I find it insulting.  Tradition is an important part of the military, we respect it, and draw strength from it.  From why the Old Guard and the Devil Dogs got their names, through the manner of toasting at banquets, to the places persons stand in formations, all are drawn from our heritage. 

I do not have contempt for the military, far from it. However, I reserve the right to examine the value of so-called traditions. I reserve the right to consider what the military has done well and what it has done poorly and to make my own judgements. I reserve the right to consider what CAP does well, what it does poorly and what it should and should not do. I reserve the right to think freely. Such reservations are not an insult. In fact, I am pretty sure that the whole point of the Real Military's existence is to help safeguard such ability of the common citizen to continue to reserve those rights.

We are not the Old Guard nor are we the Devil Dogs. We are civilian volunteers.

[winterg]

I just wish to do the job that really needs to be done and avoid the nonsense that seems to go with it. Claiming that the alleged nonsense is "tradition" does not make it any more valuable to me. Sorry but I am here to do a job not to play soldier.

I am sorry.  I wanted to stay out of this argument, but.... The argument that military tradition is nonsense is so offensive to me as a veteran of the USAF and the US Army that I felt I had to say something.

Yes.  We are civilian volunteers.  But we are also members of the USAF Aux.  A paramilitary organization.  And we are entrusted with the honor, and traditions,  of our parent organization.  As such, we owe it to the USAF and those who have come before to maintain those traditions with the reverence they deserve.

Personally, I would not want to serve on an ES mission with someone who did not have the same high level of respect for the traditions of the individuals who so diligently cared for them and passed them on to us.

There are plenty of other SAR organizations you could be a part of.  But I think you will find they have their own traditions they value just as much.  So, for the sake of those around you, at least pretend to know what we are supposed to be about.

[Nomex Maximus]

I just wish to do the job that really needs to be done and avoid the nonsense that seems to go with it. Claiming that the alleged nonsense is "tradition" does not make it any more valuable to me. Sorry but I am here to do a job not to play soldier.

I am sorry.  I wanted to stay out of this argument, but.... The argument that military tradition is nonsense is so offensive to me as a veteran of the USAF and the US Army that I felt I had to say something.

Yes.  We are civilian volunteers.  But we are also members of the USAF Aux.  A paramilitary organization.  And we are entrusted with the honor, and traditions,  of our parent organization.  As such, we owe it to the USAF and those who have come before to maintain those traditions with the reverence they deserve.

Personally, I would not want to serve on an ES mission with someone who did not have the same high level of respect for the traditions of the individuals who so diligently cared for them and passed them on to us.

There are plenty of other SAR organizations you could be a part of.  But I think you will find they have their own traditions they value just as much.  So, for the sake of those around you, at least pretend to know what we are supposed to be about.

I didn't say ALL or even most military tradition was nonsense. I do say that it is POSSIBLE that CAP don't need SOME of it or MORE of it.

I am sorry, but if you don't want to go on an actual ES mission because the guy you are assigned to fly with doesn't like marching or has sometime in the past expressed the opinion that he doesn't see the need for marching, etc, well as far as I am concerned that attitude right there is a bit *wacky*. "I'm sorry ma'am, we can only get three airplanes up to search for your lost son because the fourth and fifth  planes would have been crewed by pilots who don't like to stand in formation at ceremonies and we can't have that."

[O-Rex]

CAP encompasses a diverse population, and a few distinct subcultures:  Go to some Cadet or Composite Squadron, and it's high & tights and pressed BDU's, with a flurry of activity that would make a Drill Instructor proud; go to some Senior Squadrons, and it's golf-shirts, hangar-talk and flight-planning.  Most are somewhere in between.

Who's right? they all are.

As I said before, balance and diversity are the key.  I'd like to think that there's something for everyone in CAP, and there are enough squadrons around for each member to find his or her niche.

I don't want to be a soldier: been there, done that, enjoyed it, got the T-shirt, and moved on.

I don't want to be an airman: opted to be a soldier instead.

I'd like to be a CAP member, and a darn good one, whether I'm wearing a golf shirt and the beginnings of a beard, or USAF-type blues and clean-shaven.

At the end of the day, we're all on the same team.

[Nomex Maximus]

Well said O-Rex.

[PhotogPilot]

Well, your contempt for the military and its traditions are obvious, and I don't like it.  I find it insulting.  Tradition is an important part of the military, we respect it, and draw strength from it.  From why the Old Guard and the Devil Dogs got their names, through the manner of toasting at banquets, to the places persons stand in formations, all are drawn from our heritage. 

I do not have contempt for the military, far from it. However, I reserve the right to examine the value of so-called traditions. I reserve the right to consider what the military has done well and what it has done poorly and to make my own judgements. I reserve the right to consider what CAP does well, what it does poorly and what it should and should not do. I reserve the right to think freely. Such reservations are not an insult. In fact, I am pretty sure that the whole point of the Real Military's existence is to help safeguard such ability of the common citizen to continue to reserve those rights.

We are not the Old Guard nor are we the Devil Dogs. We are civilian volunteers.

Sorry pal, your "right" to free expression only exists so that the government cannot not exercise prior restraint in preventing you from publishing it. It doesn't stop the rest of of us from thinking you are, and calling you an idiot. You have the right to think the same about me.

I find your attitude offensive and insulting. I am 49 years old, I'm overwight, and the greatest regret of my life is that, like many people growing up in the 70's, I did not serve in the "real military" when I had the chance. I see CAP has a way to do something, however insignificant compared to those who have, and to this day serve in the "real military".  I enjoy wearing the CAP uniform. I take pride in the fact that I wear the uniform I am authorized correctly and squared away.

Last year I was at an airshow, to work a recruiting table, I wore the blue trousers, white shirt, blue grade combo (TPU). When I arrived, The first "RM" member I saw was a VERY young Seaman (probably 2 weeks out of Great Lakes) working the gate. When he saw me approach, he saluted, I returned the salute and thanked him and said good morning, showed my ID, told him I was CAP and working the show and headed in, thinking he probably doesn't know the difference. Next I came up on two USAF Security Police, a both Staff Sergeants, who also executed very smart salutes, which I was honored and proud to return, with sinciere thanks.  I am positive they DID know the difference. I believe the respect they showed me was a reflection of the respect I showed them, and the uniform I was wearing, clean neat and pressed (thanks Chief Chiafos for the Gorilla Guide).

I make no claims or representations about being the the "RM". I am a member of an organization, that sometimes is, sometimes is not, the Aux of the USAF. An organization that is organized along miltary lines, and has history and traditions. That awards military style grade for service, longevity and completing development objectives. That allows me to use my skill as a pilot to do some good, and practice my love for the art and skill of flying.

Tradtions are important in every aspect of our lives. If you are married, did you have a ceremony, with a Minister, Priest or Rabbi? Or did a Justice of the Peace sign a Marriage Liscence and say "you're married, now get out of my office"?  Both have the same effect, both are legal. I am betting, it was the former, because that is a tradition in our society. If you went to a university, I bet there are traditions that were obverved there, that you remember to this day. At Texas Tech, they ring the bells after a sports victory, at A&M, they have the Bonfire, and at  UT, they have Bevo and the cannon. All are traditions, and all are important.

You are a pilot, did your instructor cut off the back of your shirt when you soloed? That also is a tradition.

CAP's tradition is that of a MILITARY history, and is no less important to many of us. Don't expect to insult and degrade that and not get a severe reaction from the rest of us.

[Skyray]

When Hurricane Andrew passed through here, I got up, surveyed the damage, raised the flag, sucked it up, and proceeded to start on the clean up.  Two days later a friend from CAP showed up at the door, and he had take out from McDonald's.  That was the first time that I realized that I hadn't eaten since the storm.  I was running on pure tradition. Military tradition.  Tradition that I had learned as a child in the Boy Scouts, as a Marine, and yes, in the Civil Air Patrol.  I was proud when the Wing Commander showed up with a couple of van loads of cadets and set them to directing traffic where traffic control signals were out.  I was proud when a team from two counties north came to Tamiami Airport and started silencing ELTs.  And I was proud when a friend from three hundred miles north of here rolled in with a mobile field kitchen, called me on the radio which I had working by then, and asked me where to set up.  CAP is a tradition, just like the Marine Corps.  A tradition of helping others.  I stood just a little bit taller when I saluted that Wing Commander after that.  He deserved it.

[Nomex Maximus]

When Hurricane Andrew passed through here, I got up, surveyed the damage, raised the flag, sucked it up, and proceeded to start on the clean up.  Two days later a friend from CAP showed up at the door, and he had take out from McDonald's.  That was the first time that I realized that I hadn't eaten since the storm.  I was running on pure tradition. Military tradition.  Tradition that I had learned as a child in the Boy Scouts, as a Marine, and yes, in the Civil Air Patrol.  I was proud when the Wing Commander showed up with a couple of van loads of cadets and set them to directing traffic where traffic control signals were out.  I was proud when a team from two counties north came to Tamiami Airport and started silencing ELTs.  And I was proud when a friend from three hundred miles north of here rolled in with a mobile field kitchen, called me on the radio which I had working by then, and asked me where to set up.  CAP is a tradition, just like the Marine Corps.  A tradition of helping others.  I stood just a little bit taller when I saluted that Wing Commander after that.  He deserved it.

OK so you did in fact do the important stuff. And I commend you and that is what we are here for. Are you going to tell me that you wouldn't have responded to that emergency if you hadn't spent time learing how to march?

[Nomex Maximus]

. . .

Tradtions are important in every aspect of our lives. If you are married, did you have a ceremony, with a Minister, Priest or Rabbi? Or did a Justice of the Peace sign a Marriage Liscence and say "you're married, now get out of my office"?  Both have the same effect, both are legal. I am betting, it was the former, because that is a tradition in our society. If you went to a university, I bet there are traditions that were obverved there, that you remember to this day. At Texas Tech, they ring the bells after a sports victory, at A&M, they have the Bonfire, and at  UT, they have Bevo and the cannon. All are traditions, and all are important.

You are a pilot, did your instructor cut off the back of your shirt when you soloed? That also is a tradition.

CAP's tradition is that of a MILITARY history, and is no less important to many of us. Don't expect to insult and degrade that and not get a severe reaction from the rest of us.

So if it is a military tradition, we do it regardless of whether or not it makes sense to do it? Sorry but I do find that sort of dumb.

A common and widespread military tradition has been hazing. Is that a tradition we should  maintain?

I do not intend to insult anyone here. But if you all can't have a civil discussion about the merits of a practice then you all can just be insulted.

It's a big world, open your minds.

Sheesh.

[PhotogPilot]

. . .

Tradtions are important in every aspect of our lives. If you are married, did you have a ceremony, with a Minister, Priest or Rabbi? Or did a Justice of the Peace sign a Marriage Liscence and say "you're married, now get out of my office"?  Both have the same effect, both are legal. I am betting, it was the former, because that is a tradition in our society. If you went to a university, I bet there are traditions that were obverved there, that you remember to this day. At Texas Tech, they ring the bells after a sports victory, at A&M, they have the Bonfire, and at  UT, they have Bevo and the cannon. All are traditions, and all are important.

You are a pilot, did your instructor cut off the back of your shirt when you soloed? That also is a tradition.

CAP's tradition is that of a MILITARY history, and is no less important to many of us. Don't expect to insult and degrade that and not get a severe reaction from the rest of us.

So if it is a military tradition, we do it regardless of whether or not it makes sense to do it? Sorry but I do find that sort of dumb.

A common and widespread military tradition has been hazing. Is that a tradition we should  maintain?

I do not intend to insult anyone here. But if you all can't have a civil discussion about the merits of a practice then you all can just be insulted.

It's a big world, open your minds.

Sheesh.

So until we all agree with YOU, we have closed minds?, But you are the enlightened one, who is under no obligation to attempt to see our point of view? Boy does that attitude sound familiar.

I agree, hazing is bad, but there is no need to throw out the baby with the bath water, so to speak. And I believe that you can honor basic set of traditions, and intelligent people can change obvious wrongs, without becoming anarchists.