ES mission expansion, could Big Blue back us up?

[JeffDG]

abdsp51 never said state law, he said

3)  In Az you will not receive a GT rating unless you have the state mandated SARTECH training as well.

One of the other posters put the spin on it

The Arizona Legislature has passed a bill saying that "In order to be qualified as a GTM in CAP, one must have SARTECH training?

and someone else jumped in by saying "+1" to the incorrect statement.

SAR Tech is not "state mandated," which is a far cry from legislative action, but what is mandated, from the Arizona Search and Rescue Coordinator's "Basic Search and Rescue" manual, 2d edition, Feb. 5, 2013, page 2:

Section 1.2
Arizona Requirements of Volunteers
There are basic minimum requirements for an individual to participate in a SAR incident in Arizona. To be deployed the individual must at least:
- Be affiliated with a recognized government entity, for example, a Sheriff's Office, the Civil Air Patrol (CAP), or the Arizona Division of Emergency Management (ADEM).
- Pass a basic background check.
- Complete a 2-day "Introduction to Arizona Search and Rescue" course, or equivalent, conducted by members of the Arizona Search and Rescue Coordinators Association.
- Complete an OSHA course on Bloodborne Pathogens and Body Substance Isolation Procedures, and renew it annually.
- Be equipped to stay in the field for 24 hours without support.

I believe that NHQ's ES officer made some strides into getting that into the curriculum. It's been a while, for all I know it's already part and parcel of the curriculum

No 

and I'm talking out my...hind end

?

Mike

And what of that has any bearing whatsoever on the qualifications of a CAP member to GTM3?

[sardak]

It has no bearing, that's the point.

The statement was made

3)  In Az you will not receive a GT rating unless you have the state mandated SARTECH training as well.

Rather than look it up, the statement derailed into a discussion on 60-3 supplements, state laws, SAR Tech, etc.

Just showing that as expected, one can have a GT rating in Arizona without having SAR Tech training, which is why there isn't a supplement, and bringing he discussion back on track.

Mike

[abdsp51]

Just showing that as expected, one can have a GT rating in Arizona without having SAR Tech training, which is why there isn't a supplement, and bringing he discussion back on track.

Mike

No in Az you can not have  GT rating without SARTECH period.

[Eclipse]

No in Az you can not have  GT rating without SARTECH period.

Cite please.

[abdsp51]

No in Az you can not have  GT rating without SARTECH period.

Cite please.

Cite, a fellow senior member in my unit who has fulfilled the requirements for his GTM3 that's been sitting at wing and he was told it would not be signed until he has attended SARTECH. That was what was told to not only him but the Sq CC as well. 

Yes there is no supplement on half of the things this wing does, do not even get me started on that.  The above info came straight from the party invovled and the CC directly.

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

Cite generally means show something we could verify for ourselves.

If your fellow senior member has completed the training required and is getting told something else not in an approved supplement is required then he has to ask himself (to quote Sean Connery in The Untouchables) "What are you prepared to do about it?"

[Eclipse]

^ Exactly.  This starts with friendly questions via emails and ends with formal complaints.

This is a serious violation of something which is considered fairly sacrosanct in the ES program - namely that the baseline requirements for ES
are standard nationally, and anything that a wing feels is important enough to add as a gateway, needs to be reviewed and approved by
national >before< a wing is allowed to hold anyone to that different standard.

Just because someone with the keys to the system decides something is important, doesn't give them the right to require it, and that
include the Wing CC himself.  The rulez is the rulez, and anything else just ain't square.

[abdsp51]

^ Exactly.  This starts with friendly questions via emails and ends with formal complaints.

This is a serious violation of something which is considered fairly sacrosanct in the ES program - namely that the baseline requirements for ES
are standard nationally, and anything that a wing feels is important enough to add as a gateway, needs to be reviewed and approved by
national >before< a wing is allowed to hold anyone to that different standard.

Just because someone with the keys to the system decides something is important, doesn't give them the right to require it, and that
include the Wing CC himself.  The rulez is the rulez, and anything else just ain't square.

Which is what I have said, and due to this my buddy has wasted money on gear and training and dumped being on GT.

[Eclipse]

Totally uncool, but won't be "fixed" until someone starts squeaking.

[Luis R. Ramos]

I made a search using "CAP Arizona Wing Supplement."

On the AZ Wing Webpage among ORI, supplements, instructions I found the document Arizona Basic Search Material. It has been prepared by the Arizona Search and Rescue Coordinators, available on https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B4KfDchC_yLdZWkzeFlRV2szSzg/edit

This document does read on page 2 those requirements for CAP personnel to participate in searches. Correction, does not say so of CAP personnel, but does say that "volunteers must have those requirements." Also requires affiliation with a sheriff's office, CAP, or other govt entity.

It looks like CAP AZ has taken that stock, lock, and barrel and requires that from its volunteers as well in violation of CAP NHQ procedures.

I will keep looking...

Did not see any supplements stating that CAP AZ personnel must have them...

Also will look for any AZ MOU...

Flyer

[a2capt]

Just because someone with the keys to the system decides something is important, doesn't give them the right to require it, and that
include the Wing CC himself.  The rulez is the rulez, and anything else just ain't square.

Funny, that's pretty much the same thing I said about those who don't approve stuff that is supported by regulations, just because "they hold the WSA power, and they don't agree with whatever it is the applicant wants".


No supplement, no more hoops. Approve it, or deny it in writing with a cite as to why. It's all about consistency.

[PA Guy]

OK, I'm confused.

If I move to AZWG I can keep my CAP GTL rating but if I want to participate in SAR I must also complete the AZ state requirements?

Or if I go to NESA and get my GT 3 rating I must then complete the state mandated training in order to participate in SAR?

[PHall]

You know, there's one thing you guys might want to consider.
CAP is NOT the lead agency for GSAR in any state/territory/commonwealth/district.
We operate in each state at their pleasure...

[a2capt]

Very true. But that does not change our regulation that governs how we get our training annotated.

If the state has a law that requires something before you can act as such, then that should be separate from our system, and it should be on a Wing level supplement that says "you will not be dispatched on a mission" without that proof on file, within the state of AZ.

But if someone is all qualified, and the only thing they do is NESA each year, as an example. Whatever Arizona says, has nothing to do with that participation and performance, which our regulation completely supports. 

Of, I'm sure there will be someone that disagrees with that  because they never go on a "real" mission, but the regulation does not say anything about that.

[abdsp51]

You know, there's one thing you guys might want to consider.
CAP is NOT the lead agency for GSAR in any state/territory/commonwealth/district.
We operate in each state at their pleasure...

Nothing wrong with that, but to have a member meet the organizations requirements for something and be told no because he/she doesn't have something that they were not informed with to start is BS on a major scale.  We want people to play in ES be honest and upfront about all requirements to participate.

[JeffDG]

I made a search using "CAP Arizona Wing Supplement."

On the AZ Wing Webpage among ORI, supplements, instructions I found the document Arizona Basic Search Material. It has been prepared by the Arizona Search and Rescue Coordinators, available on https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B4KfDchC_yLdZWkzeFlRV2szSzg/edit

This document does read on page 2 those requirements for CAP personnel to participate in searches. Correction, does not say so of CAP personnel, but does say that "volunteers must have those requirements." Also requires affiliation with a sheriff's office, CAP, or other govt entity.

It looks like CAP AZ has taken that stock, lock, and barrel and requires that from its volunteers as well in violation of CAP NHQ procedures.

I will keep looking...

Did not see any supplements stating that CAP AZ personnel must have them...

Also will look for any AZ MOU...

Flyer

Here's all the currently approved supplements to 60-3, which is where this would need to live:
http://capmembers.com/emergency_services/operations_support/approved-supplements-waivers-ois-etc-to-capr-60-3/

Only CO, NC, NER and MER have currently approved supplements to 60-3.

For reference, all 60-3 supplements have to be approved by both NHQ and CAP-USAF:

1-2. Supplements and Waivers. Supplements to this regulation cannot be issued below the wing level (except Congressional Squadron) and require region commander, NHQ CAP/DO, and CAP-USAF/XO approval. Requests for waivers or supplements must be submitted via chain of command to the CAP and CAP-USAF region commanders and then to NHQ CAP/DO for further consideration.

[Eclipse]

You know, there's one thing you guys might want to consider.
CAP is NOT the lead agency for GSAR in any state/territory/commonwealth/district.
We operate in each state at their pleasure...

The State of Arizona does not dictate to CAP what the rules are for the award of our badges and ratings internally.

If they want to make up some silly rules that generate revenue for a private association in order to participate, so be it,
that has nothing to do with the badge or the rating.

[Eclipse]

Just for snicks I took a look again at the SARTech Certification.

All I have to say is, you've got to be kidding me.

I agree, NHQ needs to go to NASAR, draw straight lines between GT and SARTech, buy NASAR coffee, and thank them for their time.

This is >clearly<, intended for adhoc members of the general public who want to get involved in SAR and are not part of a structured,
recognized agency or organization with a full training program.  Makes sense, no issue, but to expect us to "recertify" on the exact same stuff, just because some private association has good lobbyists smacks of FWA.

[C/Awesomenesss]

Just for snicks I took a look again at the SARTech Certification.

All I have to say is, you've got to be kidding me.

I agree, NHQ needs to go to NASAR, draw straight lines between GT and SARTech, buy NASAR coffee, and thank them for their time.

This is >clearly<, intended for adhoc members of the general public who want to get involved in SAR and are not part of a structured,
recognized agency or organization with a full training program.  Makes sense, no issue, but to expect us to "recertify" on the exact same stuff, just because some private association has good lobbyists smacks of FWA.

Ya buddy!!!!!

[a2capt]

So:

Section 1.2
Arizona Requirements of Volunteers
There are basic minimum requirements for an individual to participate in a SAR incident in Arizona. To be deployed the individual must at least:

- Be affiliated with a recognized government entity, for example, a Sheriff's Office, the Civil Air Patrol (CAP), or the Arizona Division of Emergency Management (ADEM).

Yup.

- Pass a basic background check.

CAP does that. 

- Complete a 2-day "Introduction to Arizona Search and Rescue" course, or equivalent, conducted by members of the Arizona Search and Rescue Coordinators Association.

Two day course. I wonder if you took the curriculum and held it up to the light.. how much would for all intents, be the same.  Though they recognize various government agencies, I can't believe they would figure that the Sheriff's office would train people at subpar standards.

- Complete an OSHA course on Bloodborne Pathogens and Body Substance Isolation Procedures, and renew it annually.

So they're requiring a current First Aid Course, with Bloodborne Pathogens.

- Be equipped to stay in the field for 24 hours without support.

We have that.

I agree. Sounds like control freak syndrome, and channeling revenue to a private organization.