Restoration of adult member NCO chevron ranks?

[hhbooker2]

Greetings & Salutations! Have heard over the many years that the Civil Air Patrol had considered restoration of adult member NCO chevrons ranks? Is it just scuttlebutt or a germ of truth squirreled away there, hopefully? Would be star of the USAF be replaced by the the three-blade propeller in the center, maybe? As I am a septuagenarian now, over age 70, do not cotton to the idea of being a Second Lieutenant. Alternative is Senior Member non-rank, yes? I was a Master Sergeant in the 1960s with the National Capitol Wing in Washington, D.C. (Bolling AFB), heard NCO rank could be reclaimed from C.A.P. or as an enlisted person in the regular U.S. Armed Forces, nope? It is also said one would be frozen in whatever NCO or Airman rank? I appear to have been the "post boy" for being an enlisted person in the C.A.P.? Saw only one other NCO, a woman of 19 who was a Technical Sergeant, maybe we were rare even back then? Any ideas, answers or comments? Thank you kindly! Herbert Booker of Palm Coast, Florida (Somewhere in Limbo)

[Eclipse]

Yes, it's been considered.  It isn't workable in CAP as the program exists today.

There's plenty of discussion on this in other threads.

[Storm Chaser]

As has been mentioned in other threads, you can come back to CAP as a MSgt as long as you have documentation that you were previously a MSgt in CAP or in the military. These ranks are approved locally and recorded at NHQ. Once the rank is approved, there is currently no way to get promoted to other NCO grades (unless you're still in the military, in which case you can promote in CAP as you promote in your service).

There has been many discussions about incorporating an NCO senior program in CAP. If that ever gets approved and implemented, then NCO members would be able to progress through their program and be promoted as their officer counterparts. But how long before such program is approved and implemented is still undetermined. My guess is that it will be several years, at best.

[arajca]

According to the last CSAG meeting minutes, the proposal has been presented to the AF and is being considered by them.

[Private Investigator]

... As I am a septuagenarian now, over age 70, do not cotton to the idea of being a Second Lieutenant. Alternative is Senior Member non-rank, yes? I was a Master Sergeant in the 1960s with the National Capitol Wing ...

Master Sergeant always sounds good. Second Lieutenant is ok at 21 and I see your point at 71. It just does not sound kosher.

Thanks for your service sir   :clap:

[jeders]

... As I am a septuagenarian now, over age 70, do not cotton to the idea of being a Second Lieutenant. Alternative is Senior Member non-rank, yes? I was a Master Sergeant in the 1960s with the National Capitol Wing ...

Master Sergeant always sounds good. Second Lieutenant is ok at 21 and I see your point at 71. It just does not sound kosher.

Thanks for your service sir   :clap:

That's interesting, at an SLS a couple of years ago we had a member who had served during WWII. He had joined CAP quite recently at that point and was proud to be a 2d Lt. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

[hhbooker2]

Master Sergeant always sounds good. Second Lieutenant is ok at 21 and I see your point at 71. It just does not sound kosher.

Thanks for your service sir   :clap:
[/quote] You're quite welcome, actually served underage in the U.S.Army first in the 1950s, then the South Carolina Army National Guard and later the C.A.P.!

That's interesting, at an SLS a couple of years ago we had a member who had served during WWII. He had joined CAP quite recently at that point and was proud to be a 2d Lt. Different strokes for different folks I guess.
[/quote]  Saw a photograph of a gentleman in his 90s as a Second Lieutenant, that is okay if one elects to hold the rank, yes, different strokes I guess? Does a former warrant officer or commissioned officer in the State Guard (State Defense Forces, State Military Reserve, etc.) qualify to a higher rank that 2LT in the C.A.P.? We had a former C.A.P. Major who had a commission of same rank from the California Governor and the Adjutant General and he later was promoted to Lieutenant Colonel and the C.A.P. elevated him to that rank also, so we were told?  He is also a lawyer, maybe his position in civil life counts for it too? He acted as an unpaid lawyer for the California Army National Guard, many in SDF volunteer to do the work for free! I commend the older Second Lieutenant!  :clap:

[MSG Mac]

The grade must be "Federally Recognized", so Armed Forces or National Guard grades would transfer, but not State Guard.

[SARDOC]

The grade must be "Federally Recognized", so Armed Forces or National Guard grades would transfer, but not State Guard.

Not all National Guard grades are federally recognized.  I've seen guys graduate State OCS with 90 college credits (ie. No Bachelor's degree) and Commissioned a Second Lieutenants, but their grade wasn't recognized with an actual commission until after their bachelor's degree was completed.

[TankerT]

The grade must be "Federally Recognized", so Armed Forces or National Guard grades would transfer, but not State Guard.

Not all National Guard grades are federally recognized.  I've seen guys graduate State OCS with 90 college credits (ie. No Bachelor's degree) and Commissioned a Second Lieutenants, but their grade wasn't recognized with an actual commission until after their bachelor's degree was completed.

I think you're information is a little off.  National Guard Officers with 90 credits from college receive a commission that is federally recognized.  There are some cases where the federal recognition is delayed for a variety of reasons.  Sometimes self-imposed.  In the past (not sure about the last 10 years) some states would let you put off your federal commission (or state commission) so you could finish your degree.  This had nothing to do with the credits, but allowed people to continue to get some education benefits only available to them as enlisted personnel.

Edit: Note - you can have your federally recognized rank be different than your state rank though.  I.E. a very common instance is that some Adjutant Generals are not federally recognized as Generals, but wear General grade insignia  in their state.

[Private Investigator]

The grade must be "Federally Recognized", so Armed Forces or National Guard grades would transfer, but not State Guard.

Not all National Guard grades are federally recognized.  I've seen guys graduate State OCS with 90 college credits (ie. No Bachelor's degree) and Commissioned a Second Lieutenants, but their grade wasn't recognized with an actual commission until after their bachelor's degree was completed.

I think you're information is a little off.  National Guard Officers with 90 credits from college receive a commission that is federally recognized.  There are some cases where the federal recognition is delayed for a variety of reasons.  Sometimes self-imposed.  In the past (not sure about the last 10 years) some states would let you put off your federal commission (or state commission) so you could finish your degree.  This had nothing to do with the credits, but allowed people to continue to get some education benefits only available to them as enlisted personnel.

Edit: Note - you can have your federally recognized rank be different than your state rank though.  I.E. a very common instance is that some Adjutant Generals are not federally recognized as Generals, but wear General grade insignia  in their state.

Correctomundo. A few years back a female was selected as the Adjutant General of VT and was promoted to MG while in the Army she was only a LTC.   

[Flying Pig]

Sounds like something CAP would do

[SARDOC]

The grade must be "Federally Recognized", so Armed Forces or National Guard grades would transfer, but not State Guard.

Not all National Guard grades are federally recognized.  I've seen guys graduate State OCS with 90 college credits (ie. No Bachelor's degree) and Commissioned a Second Lieutenants, but their grade wasn't recognized with an actual commission until after their bachelor's degree was completed.

I think you're information is a little off.  National Guard Officers with 90 credits from college receive a commission that is federally recognized.  There are some cases where the federal recognition is delayed for a variety of reasons.  Sometimes self-imposed.  In the past (not sure about the last 10 years) some states would let you put off your federal commission (or state commission) so you could finish your degree.  This had nothing to do with the credits, but allowed people to continue to get some education benefits only available to them as enlisted personnel.

Edit: Note - you can have your federally recognized rank be different than your state rank though.  I.E. a very common instance is that some Adjutant Generals are not federally recognized as Generals, but wear General grade insignia  in their state.

Thanks.  I don't see where my one example is debunked though.  My information is correct just not as complete.  You've just really solidified my point.

I did not know that the TAG's weren't federally recognized.  I just thought the National Guard seemed very flag heavy.

[jimmydeanno]

The grade must be "Federally Recognized", so Armed Forces or National Guard grades would transfer, but not State Guard.

Not all National Guard grades are federally recognized.  I've seen guys graduate State OCS with 90 college credits (ie. No Bachelor's degree) and Commissioned a Second Lieutenants, but their grade wasn't recognized with an actual commission until after their bachelor's degree was completed.

I think you're information is a little off.  National Guard Officers with 90 credits from college receive a commission that is federally recognized.  There are some cases where the federal recognition is delayed for a variety of reasons.  Sometimes self-imposed.  In the past (not sure about the last 10 years) some states would let you put off your federal commission (or state commission) so you could finish your degree.  This had nothing to do with the credits, but allowed people to continue to get some education benefits only available to them as enlisted personnel.

Edit: Note - you can have your federally recognized rank be different than your state rank though.  I.E. a very common instance is that some Adjutant Generals are not federally recognized as Generals, but wear General grade insignia  in their state.

Thanks.  I don't see where my one example is debunked though.  My information is correct just not as complete.  You've just really solidified my point.

I did not know that the TAG's weren't federally recognized.  I just thought the National Guard seemed very flag heavy.

The current GA Adjudant General left Active Duty as a Captain.  The feds recognize him as a Major and in state he is a Major General.

[MSG Mac]

State AG's are frocked as MG's upon appointment. But must meet Federal Requirements for recognition. Most usually do get BG and later MG. Some don't. I recall meeting a Colonel, who had been the AG for Massachusetts, but didn't meet the federal requirements for recognition. MG within the Commonwealth, COL when traveling.

[MHC5096]

In many states, the position of Adjutant General is a political appointment by the government or the legislature.

The Adjutant General for Vermont that Private Investigator mentioned is Major General Martha Rainville. She was a Lieutenant Colonel in the Vermont Air National Guard. When she was appointed to TAG, she was wore the insignia of Major General (state recognized) while her federally recognized grade was Lieutenant Colonel. However, she was federally recognized as a Major General by the time she resigned from the position to run for elected office.

When I left the VTANG in 2009, there was an appointed Assistant Adjutant General (Brigadier General) who only had prior enlisted military service. When conducting business in the state of Vermont he would wear an Army BG uniform, but outside the state he would wear a civilian suit. In Vermont an individual can actually be placed into a flag rank position with no prior military service at all.

[PHall]

The grade must be "Federally Recognized", so Armed Forces or National Guard grades would transfer, but not State Guard.

Not all National Guard grades are federally recognized.  I've seen guys graduate State OCS with 90 college credits (ie. No Bachelor's degree) and Commissioned a Second Lieutenants, but their grade wasn't recognized with an actual commission until after their bachelor's degree was completed.

I think you're information is a little off.  National Guard Officers with 90 credits from college receive a commission that is federally recognized.  There are some cases where the federal recognition is delayed for a variety of reasons.  Sometimes self-imposed.  In the past (not sure about the last 10 years) some states would let you put off your federal commission (or state commission) so you could finish your degree.  This had nothing to do with the credits, but allowed people to continue to get some education benefits only available to them as enlisted personnel.

Edit: Note - you can have your federally recognized rank be different than your state rank though.  I.E. a very common instance is that some Adjutant Generals are not federally recognized as Generals, but wear General grade insignia  in their state.

Correctomundo. A few years back a female was selected as the Adjutant General of VT and was promoted to MG while in the Army she was only a LTC.   

Same thing happened in California back in the 80's when Jerry Brown was Governor the first time.
Friend of his who was an Active Duty Army LTC was appointed as the AG by Governor Brown. It was almost three years before he was Federally recognized as a General Officer.

[commando1]

Going back to the OP, what happens when the SM is active duty? Do they still promote as their military rank? Or are they locked in under the rank they joined as? I'm a former Mitchell cadet, current FO and active duty U.S Marine.

Saepe Expertus, Semper Fidelis, Fratres Aeterni

[jeders]

Going back to the OP, what happens when the SM is active duty? Do they still promote as their military rank? Or are they locked in under the rank they joined as? I'm a former Mitchell cadet, current FO and active duty U.S Marine.

Saepe Expertus, Semper Fidelis, Fratres Aeterni

If you rise in your active duty NCO grade, then you submit the proper CAP paperwork for the higher CAP enlisted rank. Promoting while active duty is the only way currently for CAP NCOs to promote without becoming officers.

[Private Investigator]

In many states, the position of Adjutant General is a political appointment by the government or the legislature.

The Adjutant General for Vermont that Private Investigator mentioned is Major General Martha Rainville. She was a Lieutenant Colonel in the Vermont Air National Guard. When she was appointed to TAG, she was wore the insignia of Major General (state recognized) while her federally recognized grade was Lieutenant Colonel. However, she was federally recognized as a Major General by the time she resigned from the position to run for elected office.

When I left the VTANG in 2009, there was an appointed Assistant Adjutant General (Brigadier General) who only had prior enlisted military service. When conducting business in the state of Vermont he would wear an Army BG uniform, but outside the state he would wear a civilian suit. In Vermont an individual can actually be placed into a flag rank position with no prior military service at all.

Thank you sir for the update. I guess it is all fair since all you need to know, is how to fried chicken to be a Colonel in Kentucky.   

[ol'fido]

Well, I just got a LinkedIn request from a Major General in the US Ranger Corps. Deleted it.

[NCRblues]

Well, I just got a LinkedIn request from a Major General in the US Ranger Corps. Deleted it.

Really?? I thought it had all but died out... How is it still going?

[Майор Хаткевич]

Well, I just got a LinkedIn request from a Major General in the US Ranger Corps. Deleted it.

Really?? I thought it had all but died out... How is it still going?

Was it this guy:

Commander, 4th Division USRCUnited States Ranger CorpsSeptember 2008 – Present (5 years)Oversight of units in Eastern USA with objective to recruit new members and commission new units.

He used to do this:

Retired Civil Air Patrol 1998-2012United States Air Force Auxiliary Civil Air PatrolMay 1998 – Present (15 years 4 months)Florida Wing Chaplain for two tours of duty, Staff Chaplain Southeast Region, founder and former commander for Springfield Composite Squadron FL-027 which has both Senior and Cadet Members.  CAP provides Aerospace, Emergency Services and Cadet programs.

Additional Honors & AwardsWho's Who in Education
Who's Who in Professional Management
Who's Who in Christian Leadership
30 military / CAP medals with muliple decorations
Decorated by USMC, USN, USAF and USArmy

[ol'fido]

Picture doesn't match, but that's the job description  he gave. Didn't read much past USRC.

[Papabird]

The "US Ranger Corpse" website has been under construction for years, with no information.  I am impressed to even see a uniform, but the picture scares me!!

[Майор Хаткевич]

Wonder if they are using white aviator shirts most of their members most likely already had.

[Archer]

What's all this USRC stuff? Did I miss something?

[Jaison009]

That made me laugh out loud in a room full of people who thought I was crazy  :clap:

Wonder if they are using white aviator shirts most of their members most likely already had.

[Jaison009]

http://usrangercorps.us/  There you go. Their reputation with government proceeds them. They usually get the same reputation as Global Operations Division Special Operations http://www.god-is.in/Special-Operations.html and many of the other fly by night agencies that no one wants or asks to show up in DR situations.

What's all this USRC stuff? Did I miss something?

[Eclipse]

Wow - and the "also may knows" light up a whole wonderland of "fun".
Holey smokes, Don Shipley is only one man!  Lord help him and the guys at TAH!

In the top ten list of annoyances are people who I have never met, never worked with, and have no idea who I am, asking
to "connect" with me on Linked In, because I am some 8th-level connection of someone who is a fifth level of someone they never met,
and they just go in and click "connect" (or whatever).

Even better is being "recommended" for skills by someone who has no idea what the word means, and never worked with me in that capacity.
It just shows how worthless those recommendations are.  The only person your are fooling is yourself and your Grandmother.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Yea, MG above has maxed out his WoW Stats LinkedIn recommendations on about 10+ fields with 99 recommendations in each.

[Archer]

Explain like I'm 5, what is the problem with USRC?

[Eclipse]

Explain like I'm 5, what is the problem with USRC?

Again, search is your friend.

It was started by HWSRN as an attempt to compete with CAP after he was demoted and terminated. 
Beyond a website perpetually under construction and a few people purporting to be Generals and other
high ranking officials of the organizations, it has no public presence or apparent operations.

[a2capt]

Generalissimo's plans to create a haven for himself and his Generalissimus clan were foiled .. so he started his own organization, so he could be whatever he wanted.

..and I doubt they would have had NCO ranks either. 

But it did remove quite a few interesting, and brainwashed people from our ranks.. ;-) as they turned to lemmings and followed.

[DennisH]

Had to chime in I am very new to CAP and a retired Army 1SG. When I Joined I was thinking I would be more comfortable as an NCO, something I had earned over 35 years. I was very  uncomfortable being called Sir. I also had a trained response of "Don't you call me Sir, I work for a living" which is not well received. In the beginning I took my guidance from my Squadron Commander and took my rank as a 1LT which still made me uncomfortable. My decision point was met while serving as a TAC  officer during encampment, while I am still slightly uncomfortable being called Sir I understood that I can better serve the Squadron as an Officer. In the back of my mind I would still prefer to be called Sergeant specially when I am performing drill training with the Seniors or demonstrating command voice to the Cadet NCO's because it feels more right.
One of the things I noticed in some responses is a concern that an NCO can not advance in his NCO rank since there is no rank progression programmed into CAP for NCOs on the Senior side. I for one wouldn't have a care in the world if I remained the same rank until time ends. I joined to share my knowledge, finally see my youngest son excell in this program, and because I was amazed at the dedication and selfless service that this small cross section of youth demonstrates. I am not in the program for myself, I am done taking care of my own career and  only care for the Cadets.

[Eclipse]

"Don't you call me Sir, I work for a living" which is not well received.

It wasn't well received because assuming it ever was an appropriate response, it isn't any more, considering the high level or professionals and
NCO's with college degrees in today's military, not to mention that in a CAP paradigm it insinuates that the officers aren't doing as much as the handful of members
who have chosen note to accept CAP appointment.

One of the things I noticed in some responses is a concern that an NCO can not advance in his NCO rank since there is no rank progression programmed into CAP for NCOs on the Senior side. I for one wouldn't have a care in the world if I remained the same rank until time ends. I joined to share my knowledge, finally see my youngest son excell in this program, and because I was amazed at the dedication and selfless service that this small cross section of youth demonstrates. I am not in the program for myself, I am done taking care of my own career and  only care for the Cadets.

Well good on you for that, but I don't think it would be unfair to detect some hint of attitude towards the senior members around you, maybe I'm seeing too much here,
but those seniors makes up more then 1/2 of CAP, and without them, the "selfless service" of the youth, who, in fact are >being served< by the seniors, would not exist.

And this idea that seniors don't need to progress is one of the reasons we have such knowledge and leadership gaps, because too many people walk around picking things off
a menu, and then wonder why the heavy lifting and the details aren't covered by "someone else".

[RiverAux]

I for one wouldn't have a care in the world if I remained the same rank until time ends. I joined to share my knowledge, finally see my youngest son excell in this program, and because I was amazed at the dedication and selfless service that this small cross section of youth demonstrates. I am not in the program for myself, I am done taking care of my own career and  only care for the Cadets.

I think the concern is not just that individual NCOs can't promote, its that there is also no incentive for them to participate in the CAP senior member professional development program.  While I doubt CAP has much to teach a former high-level military NCO about leadership and the like, there is still stuff to learn about CAP as part of the PD program that not only increases their level of knowledge about how CAP works, it also prepares them to do certain CAP jobs. 

In other word, an NCO that joins and never promotes and never does any PD does have something to contribute, but an NCO that has some incentive to do PD and does so could contribute more to the organization.   

[DennisH]

"Don't you call me Sir, I work for a living" which is not well received.

It wasn't well received because assuming it ever was an appropriate response, it isn't any more, considering the high level or professionals and
NCO's with college degrees in today's military, not to mention that in a CAP paradigm it insinuates that the officers aren't doing as much as the handful of members
who have chosen note to accept CAP appointment.

One of the things I noticed in some responses is a concern that an NCO can not advance in his NCO rank since there is no rank progression programmed into CAP for NCOs on the Senior side. I for one wouldn't have a care in the world if I remained the same rank until time ends. I joined to share my knowledge, finally see my youngest son excell in this program, and because I was amazed at the dedication and selfless service that this small cross section of youth demonstrates. I am not in the program for myself, I am done taking care of my own career and  only care for the Cadets.

Well good on you for that, but I don't think it would be unfair to detect some hint of attitude towards the senior members around you, maybe I'm seeing too much here,
but those seniors makes up more then 1/2 of CAP, and without them, the "selfless service" of the youth, who, in fact are >being served< by the seniors, would not exist.

And this idea that seniors don't need to progress is one of the reasons we have such knowledge and leadership gaps, because too many people walk around picking things off
a menu, and then wonder why the heavy lifting and the details aren't covered by "someone else".

Sir, let me better explain, I never uttered a time honored joke between Senior NCO's and their commanding Officers, I merely had that response in my head and when alone with my fellow Officers I would joke that that would be my regular response, never in front of or in ear shot of cadets or other members that were not aware that is was a joke response. I won't get into the recent requirement that Senior NCO's have degrees or pursue higher education to be more like their officer counterparts. Having reached the level of advancement that I had set a goal for, I have been exposed to most of the social engineering.

Further more I have zero attitude towards my Senior counterparts and treat them with the utmost of respect, I am the one that feels I haven't earned my bars, maybe I am to set in my ways that has yet to be seen. As far as I know from the feedback I get my Squadron is very pleased with my duty performance and contributions to the program. I don't understand your comment about over half the Seniors making up CAP. I never made any derogatory mark about Seniors. I was focusing on NCO' s wanting to serve in their former ranks without concern for their OWN RANK progression. I still take all the required and more professional developent courses so that I can better serve. I  do this so I can better understand CAP, due to my indoctrination in another service. I am in no rush to be promoted but I don't deride or insult another Senior for wanting to advance.

I have no idea what your background is or how you came to CAP so maybe I am stuck in a mindset that was encoded in me at 17. I truly doubt that I would be lumped in with anyone that sits back and lets others do he heavy lifting. I ask and fill in where needed regardless of the task. Since its hard to get an honest read on someone on the Internet I could never truly prove to anyone what dues I have paid and will glady continue to do so.

On a side note I notice more discouragement here about former NCOs that wish to serve in their old ranks. While understand that CAP has to focus on its core mission I see no need to discourage those who want to serve regardless of rank. Maybe its just me I have been wrong many times before.

[DennisH]

I for one wouldn't have a care in the world if I remained the same rank until time ends. I joined to share my knowledge, finally see my youngest son excell in this program, and because I was amazed at the dedication and selfless service that this small cross section of youth demonstrates. I am not in the program for myself, I am done taking care of my own career and  only care for the Cadets.

I think the concern is not just that individual NCOs can't promote, its that there is also no incentive for them to participate in the CAP senior member professional development program.  While I doubt CAP has much to teach a former high-level military NCO about leadership and the like, there is still stuff to learn about CAP as part of the PD program that not only increases their level of knowledge about how CAP works, it also prepares them to do certain CAP jobs. 

In other word, an NCO that joins and never promotes and never does any PD does have something to contribute, but an NCO that has some incentive to do PD and does so could contribute more to the organization.   

Sir, I understand what you are saying, I can't speak for other NCO's but since I have joined I have sought out both PD and other sources for education, this site being one of a few I have learned from. Just because some of us are former NCO's from different services, it doesn't mean that we were good leaders or are proficient. From personal experience I have seen some real losers make it through the system that couldn't lead to save thier lives. In other words they couldn't find their fourth point of contact with both hands and a map.

I am all for a professional development but I also believe that NCO's can assist greatly in training young Cadet NCO's. It seems to me that Cadets rush through the ranks to make 2LT and never truly understand the role of an NCO. That is something that would serve them well should they actually enlist or be commissioned into a Service component. In the Squadron in which I now serve, I emphasize the NCO role in that short window the Cadets have so that I see an NCO conducting drill and inspections instead of the Cadet Commander micro managing while the NCO' sit there like basic Airmen. If Cadets go through the program thinking that Officers run everything and that NCO's can't be trusted to do their duty then they will be in for a real bad awakening even if the join the Air Force. Which is no insult to the Airforce, different services have different cultures.

[RiverAux]

The question is whether or not that same value can be imparted to the cadets by someone wearing CAP officers rank as well as someone wearing a CAP NCO rank.  I suspect the hundreds or thousands of former NCOs that have chosen to serve as CAP officers would say that they can do it just as well wearing bars as stripes. 

The problem is that CAP has no administrative need NCOs as do the armed forces.  The simple fact is that the military needs NCOs to ensure that work gets done and for oversight of non-NCO enlisted.  CAP doesn't work that way and probably never will. 

The thing is that if a CAP NCO were performing the same sort of duties in CAP as they were in the military they would actually be serving as great examples to cadet NCOs.  But that isn't the case.  All a CAP NCO can do is tell someone how an NCO can act, they really aren't going to have a lot of chances to SHOW them, which is a much better way of teaching.  That being the case, a former NCO that is a CAP Lt. Col. can just as effectively share their experience as an NCO with a cadet as can a CAP NCO.  I don't think its going to make much difference to the cadet what is on their shoulder or sleeve -- its their history that counts. 

Until we have a demonstrated need for NCOs, the "program" such as it is is basically represents a backwards form of elitism whereby former NCOs choose to stand out from everyone else.  Although I am certainly not advocating it, it would make more logical sense for most CAP members to be enlisted and that only former military officers would be allowed to wear officer rank.  That makes more sense than lumping together non-prior service and former military officers in the officer corps while only allowing prior NCOs to be CAP NCOs. 

The cadet role model argument is probably about the most common one presented for a CAP NCO corps, but the fact that only a 50 or so (as of the last time I heard a number a few years ago) CAP members that have chosen NCO rank shows that most former NCOs don't really think that is a good enough reason to be an NCO rather than a CAP officer. 

If CAP comes up with a much stronger reason to have NCOs things might change, but I wouldn't bet on it. 

[ol'fido]

The notion that NCOs have to function in the "traditional" NCO role to be effective or contribute in quaint but inaccurate. Anyone who thinks that NCOs can't work effectively in their rank without "junior enilisted" has never seen a Special Forces detachment in action.

[DennisH]

The question is whether or not that same value can be imparted to the cadets by someone wearing CAP officers rank as well as someone wearing a CAP NCO rank.  I suspect the hundreds or thousands of former NCOs that have chosen to serve as CAP officers would say that they can do it just as well wearing bars as stripes. 

The problem is that CAP has no administrative need NCOs as do the armed forces.  The simple fact is that the military needs NCOs to ensure that work gets done and for oversight of non-NCO enlisted.  CAP doesn't work that way and probably never will. 

The thing is that if a CAP NCO were performing the same sort of duties in CAP as they were in the military they would actually be serving as great examples to cadet NCOs.  But that isn't the case.  All a CAP NCO can do is tell someone how an NCO can act, they really aren't going to have a lot of chances to SHOW them, which is a much better way of teaching.  That being the case, a former NCO that is a CAP Lt. Col. can just as effectively share their experience as an NCO with a cadet as can a CAP NCO.  I don't think its going to make much difference to the cadet what is on their shoulder or sleeve -- its their history that counts. 

Until we have a demonstrated need for NCOs, the "program" such as it is is basically represents a backwards form of elitism whereby former NCOs choose to stand out from everyone else.  Although I am certainly not advocating it, it would make more logical sense for most CAP members to be enlisted and that only former military officers would be allowed to wear officer rank.  That makes more sense than lumping together non-prior service and former military officers in the officer corps while only allowing prior NCOs to be CAP NCOs. 

The cadet role model argument is probably about the most common one presented for a CAP NCO corps, but the fact that only a 50 or so (as of the last time I heard a number a few years ago) CAP members that have chosen NCO rank shows that most former NCOs don't really think that is a good enough reason to be an NCO rather than a CAP officer. 

If CAP comes up with a much stronger reason to have NCOs things might change, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Sir, I understand what you are saying and agree with most of it, I also understand their is no demand for an NCO to do administrative duties. What I was addressing is teaching drill, inspections and the bread and butter skills of an NCO. A former NCO can do much more than tell a Cadet how to be an NCO, he/she can demonstrate tye proper techniques by example. Reading regulations and taking online tests doesn't fully impart some training and maybe because I am a visual and learn by doing type of troop I have a different view. If we are not going to touch on these skills then why do we have NCO ranks in the Cadet formations? Then again I am trying to reprogram myself and adjust to the CAP way of doing things and the light is slowly coming on. After all it's only been a few months since I retired and ten months since I joined CAP. My point was never about standing apart or out from the officers but then again that pesky self view gets in the way.
I am adjusting just like many other former NCO's are doing.

[DennisH]

The notion that NCOs have to function in the "traditional" NCO role to be effective or contribute in quaint but inaccurate. Anyone who thinks that NCOs can't work effectively in their rank without "junior enilisted" has never seen a Special Forces detachment in action.

Sir the Special Forces model is the exception not the rule. And all those NCO' were not made over night.

[Bobble]

I also had a trained response of "Don't you call me Sir, I work for a living" which is not well received.

In the Navy we used to say, out of earshot of any Zeroes of course, "Don't call me 'Sir', I know who my parents were."  Of course, that was B.P.C., illustrating just how old I yam ('cause I yam what I yam).

[RiverAux]

The notion that NCOs have to function in the "traditional" NCO role to be effective or contribute in quaint but inaccurate. Anyone who thinks that NCOs can't work effectively in their rank without "junior enilisted" has never seen a Special Forces detachment in action.

Keep in mind that quite often they are serving as the defacto NCO corps for foreign units that they are advising.  If the foreigners had functioning NCOs, they wouldn't need SF teaching them how to clean their weapons. 

What I was addressing is teaching drill, inspections and the bread and butter skills of an NCO

Understood, just why is a CAP NCO going to be able to do that more effectively than a former NCO serving as a CAP officer? 

Frankly, focusing the efforts of former NCOs, especially high-ranking ones, on teaching basic cadet stuff is a massive waste of their talents.  Sure, if a former NCO wants to do it, thats great and I'd appreciate their efforts, but I'd want them to be doing a whole lot more for CAP. 

If we are not going to touch on these skills then why do we have NCO ranks in the Cadet formations?

Keep in mind that cadets have to work their way all the way up the ranks.  Senior members don't.  They work their way up as officers. 

There actually are a fair number of folks here that would like to see CAP seniors start off as airman and have to work their way up through NCO ranks to become officers (with exceptions that parallel some of what the military does).  But, thats not what we've got. 

[flyboy53]

The notion that NCOs have to function in the "traditional" NCO role to be effective or contribute in quaint but inaccurate. Anyone who thinks that NCOs can't work effectively in their rank without "junior enilisted" has never seen a Special Forces detachment in action.

Keep in mind that quite often they are serving as the defacto NCO corps for foreign units that they are advising.  If the foreigners had functioning NCOs, they wouldn't need SF teaching them how to clean their weapons. 

What I was addressing is teaching drill, inspections and the bread and butter skills of an NCO

Understood, just why is a CAP NCO going to be able to do that more effectively than a former NCO serving as a CAP officer? 

Frankly, focusing the efforts of former NCOs, especially high-ranking ones, on teaching basic cadet stuff is a massive waste of their talents.  Sure, if a former NCO wants to do it, thats great and I'd appreciate their efforts, but I'd want them to be doing a whole lot more for CAP. 

If we are not going to touch on these skills then why do we have NCO ranks in the Cadet formations?

Keep in mind that cadets have to work their way all the way up the ranks.  Senior members don't.  They work their way up as officers. 

There actually are a fair number of folks here that would like to see CAP seniors start off as airman and have to work their way up through NCO ranks to become officers (with exceptions that parallel some of what the military does).  But, thats not what we've got.

Myself included.

However, I have never bought into the notion that there is no room in the CAP for an effective NCO Corps just because we have cadets that fulfill that role or that NCOs would serve as effective mentors of cadets. Neither is true.

The CAP enlisted program was dissolved in the early 1970s largely because of misuse. It was easier to promote an individual at a squadron level to a rank they had no concept of, as a means of throwing a bone as a reward, then it was to have that senior member complete the necessary training for officer appointment. I remember a time when Level I or its earliest version was actually voluntary. Then about the time the NCO program was eliminated, Level I became mandatory -- which was a very good thing. I was a CAP technical sergeant then (1971-72) with about five years in the program (mostly as a cadet) and the concentration I remember from that era was less about professional development and more about ES training. Most of the courses I remember taking were programmed learning guides that came from the Bookstore. Then everything changed dramatically -- for the good.

The real reason for a functioning NCO Corps would be to better filter out those individuals who really aren't suited to be officers -- like the two star what ever that was in an earlier post. The problem is that you are right that the current personnel model of the senior member program doesn't truly incorporate such a program unless you did away with the flight officer grades and came up with something like officer trainee -- which I also believe is a better solution then starting new senior members as airmen.

Face it, officers are taught to be managers. Airmen and NCOs work through a system that starts essentially as a trainee and then moves through a supervisory process. I have yet to meet a pure CAP officer or cadet that truly understands that difference.

It also has nothing to do with Special Forces teams and that's really not an effective example because there is always an officer somewhere in the process. Although a perfect team would be manned according to a table of organization, the reality is a mixture of junior enlisted and NCOs performing very specific functions that do not mirror CAP operations or units.

Yes, I'd like to see a CAP NCO Corps, but the model I would expect requires the same PME and skill-level training that I went through -- and I realize that part of the Air Force doesn't fit volunteers. I also can tell you, having been a CAP technical sergeant, I had a completely different perspective of that rank when I finally pinned it on in the Air Force in 1983 -- not to mention what it really meant to be a master sergeant when I achieved that rank in 1991.

Which brings up another point. I was formally appointed a sergeant in 1981 during a formal ceremony and then again when I made master sergeant -- which actually included an oath. I was made to feel the reality and gravity of the rank I was being promoted to. I don't really see anything like that any where in the senior member program.

[lordmonar]

As a stripe wearing CAP NCO.....I will throw my 2 cents into the ring.

I do think that there is a place for CAP NCO's in the both the senior and cadet squadrons.

They become the keepers of Drill and Ceremonies, Military Courtesies, and Uniform wear.

They teach cadets and senior how to march, salute, wear their uniforms correctly.  The teach both seniors and cadets the military traditions.  And they teach everyone customs and courtesies.

I wrote a long post on how we can integrate NON prior service personnel into the NCO corps and set up a way for them to progress in CAP's PD program and promote up the NCO ranks.

When I made the decision to turn in my oak leaves for my E-7 Stripes I got with my commander and mapped out my role as his "first sergeant" (yes I know CAP does not have first sergeants.....my E-services duty title is advisor to the commander) and what I wanted to do for the squadron.

We have actually started teaching D&C classes to the senior members.......basically the curry movements.   It is working out pretty well so far.

[RiverAux]

I do think that there is a place for CAP NCO's in the both the senior and cadet squadrons.
They become the keepers of Drill and Ceremonies, Military Courtesies, and Uniform wear.
They teach cadets and senior how to march, salute, wear their uniforms correctly.  The teach both seniors and cadets the military traditions.  And they teach everyone customs and courtesies.

All fine things, but why were you were prevented from doing them as an officer?

The cadet program is designed to be run by CAP officers and they should be more than capable of handling that part of the program.  If not, they haven't been properly trained.  We don't need CAP NCOs to do any of that when the exact same people can do the exact same teaching as part of the current program.

I think it is quite clear that so long as we are basically operating under the current CAP senior member grade system that there will never be more than a handful of people that choose to be NCOs.  It just isn't a popular choice and there is no reason to expect that it ever will be.  Almost every former NCO in CAP has made a conscious decision that being a CAP NCO does not provide any significant advantage either to themselves or to CAP. 

Folks, its like the golf shirt vs military style uniforms -- the people have spoken and with a few exceptions here and there, the golf shirt is becoming the dominant CAP senior member standard uniform for just about everyone but ground team members.  Many of us here may not like the fact, but there it is. 

Change the whole CAP system around to make most seniors into enlisted folks and NCOs will then serve a useful purpose.  Failing that, they will continue to be oddballs. 

[Pingree1492]

With respect to RiverAux and Eclipse, I think you guys are viewing this issue through your own paradigm of being a longtime CAP member.  I certainly had the same views myself as a 13-year member and CAP Major before I enlisted in the Army.  You seem to be viewing this as someone who's been in the program for a long time, and understand how it works as a separate entity to the military.  There is no real need in CAP for the officer/enlisted separation that exists in the military, and I know I used to have problems understanding why someone would join CAP and *not* want to take the 'normal' route of Senior Member-Officer, and progress in the Professional Development Program in that manner.  Why would someone want to join, and not be an officer, thus separating themselves from everyone else and removing (or at least distancing) themselves from the collegial and (unpaid) professional camaraderie that exists in a well-run unit?  I guess before I would always attribute it (at least sub-consciously) to a bit of elitism or arrogance on the part of the former NCO (and lets admit- many good, long-time NCO's are rightly very confident in their abilities, and that can seem like arrogance to non-military folks). 

Now that I'm a (very junior) NCO in the service, I can completely understand where members like the 1SG are coming from.  I may have been in CAP FAR longer than I've been in the Army, but I'm distinctly... uncomfortable wearing any CAP uniform that has my CAP Rank on it.  Those that argue that I can bring the skills I have as an NCO to the officer corp in CAP are completely correct... I just would really prefer remaining an NCO.  It's not necessarily rational on my part, but I feel I've earned my stripes in a much more real manner than I earned that oak leaf.  It'll probably take a while being active in CAP again to be comfortable with it, but you can't help what you feel!

So, I'm not sure how this will play when read by a third party- I certainly mean no disrespect to anyone.  Mainly trying to convey why someone would rather remain an NCO in CAP even without a well defined role, because there is such a vast amount of respect for the rank, tradition and history that comes with being an NCO it's hard to not to want to bring that into CAP.  I'll probably leave my grade in CAP alone and continue to progress as an officer, as many great former-NCO's I've known have done before me. I just wanted to try to illustrate why someone would want to bring the amazing traditions of the American NCO into CAP with them.

[Private Investigator]

Now that I'm a (very junior) NCO in the service, I can completely understand where members like the 1SG are coming from.  I may have been in CAP FAR longer than I've been in the Army, but I'm distinctly... uncomfortable wearing any CAP uniform that has my CAP Rank on it.  Those that argue that I can bring the skills I have as an NCO to the officer corp in CAP are completely correct... I just would really prefer remaining an NCO.  It's not necessarily rational on my part, but I feel I've earned my stripes in a much more real manner than I earned that oak leaf.  It'll probably take a while being active in CAP again to be comfortable with it, but you can't help what you feel!

So, I'm not sure how this will play when read by a third party- I certainly mean no disrespect to anyone.  Mainly trying to convey why someone would rather remain an NCO in CAP even without a well defined role, because there is such a vast amount of respect for the rank, tradition and history that comes with being an NCO it's hard to not to want to bring that into CAP.  I'll probably leave my grade in CAP alone and continue to progress as an officer, as many great former-NCO's I've known have done before me. I just wanted to try to illustrate why someone would want to bring the amazing traditions of the American NCO into CAP with them.

You really made some good points. After being an NCO on active duty when I was recruited into CAP I was more interested in making First Sergeant then 2nd Lt. I think the members who retired from the military as an NCO come to look at being a CAP officer as a second career. After being a Group Commander, Squadron Commander and Wing IG, I accept being a CAP officer. But some days I rather be the old Sarge in the Comm Shack having my coffee and teaching Cadets communications.    

[flyboy53]

I think the real problem here is that it poses a threat to the CAP officer corps.

How often have you heard the term "career lieutenant or captain" or I'm only here to fly or operate the radios and there is a deliberate ignoring of the professional development program. There befalls a level of apathy in the CAP senior member program -- the officer corps -- where people don't adhere to standards, become stagnant, grumble a lot, go home when things don't work their way and eventually drop out of the program.

If the CAP NCO Corps worked the way many in this forum, who are positive to such a concept, hope it would work -- given our NCO backgrounds -- units would have NCOs who rigorously comply with standards and aggressively hold their counterparts to the same standard. I really think that's what really scares a lot of long-time opponents to such a rank structure because it might force a different paradigm on how the CAP senior members operate, work and conduct themselves.

Now just watch me get slammed for my terms on this one!

[DennisH]

I think a lot of  it has to do with self view, while a Former NCO regardless of service should be able to impart knowledge and experience  as a CAP officer I think, at least from my experience it feels weird barking commands as a 1LT. No insult, no superiority complex, no disrespect of any kind intended to the hard working seniors in the program.  My Commander has me at the beginning and the end of each meeting call the Squadron to attention. It must have to do with my natural tendency to revert to my NCO voice. Iam sure their are hundreds of CAP officers out there that can do the same.
As for PD I never intended to imply that I would just show up for meetings and leave the heavy lifting for others. I think and have been told that I do my fare share and then some. I don't have an ego and my last feeling died years ago. I push other Seniors around me to get promoted and advance all the time. I want others to out distance me and out rank me. Is it really that wrong to not put oneself above others? I don't plan on vegetating and becoming stale, I plan on learning since I a very new to the program. My biggest handicap is my prior service, I am relearning the CAP Air Force way which in itself is a task.
For me at least I thinks iris kore of being out of my comfort zone and in a strange new place, I guess I will adjust in time, but as long as I am contributing and the program doesn't suffer from having a stubborn old Former  1SG then it's all good.

[Eclipse]

I think the real problem here is that it poses a threat to the CAP officer corps.

NCO's aren't a threat to anyone, there's simply no place for the NCO / Officer separation of duty and responsibility
in a volunteer organization.

[Eclipse]

...from my experience it feels weird barking commands as a 1LT 1st Lt.

If you're "barking" at anyone in CAP, you're doing it wrong.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I think a lot of  it has to do with self view, while a Former NCO regardless of service should be able to impart knowledge and experience  as a CAP officer I think, at least from my experience it feels weird barking commands as a 1LT. No insult, no superiority complex, no disrespect of any kind intended to the hard working seniors in the program.  My Commander has me at the beginning and the end of each meeting call the Squadron to attention. It must have to do with my natural tendency to revert to my NCO voice. Iam sure their are hundreds of CAP officers out there that can do the same.
As for PD I never intended to imply that I would just show up for meetings and leave the heavy lifting for others. I think and have been told that I do my fare share and then some. I don't have an ego and my last feeling died years ago. I push other Seniors around me to get promoted and advance all the time. I want others to out distance me and out rank me. Is it really that wrong to not put oneself above others? I don't plan on vegetating and becoming stale, I plan on learning since I a very new to the program. My biggest handicap is my prior service, I am relearning the CAP Air Force way which in itself is a task.
For me at least I thinks iris kore of being out of my comfort zone and in a strange new place, I guess I will adjust in time, but as long as I am contributing and the program doesn't suffer from having a stubborn old Former  1SG then it's all good.

It comes with being the leadership officer, and if the CC want to use you for that purpose.


I get to do it from time to time, I don't think I was chosen for the role due to my command voice learned as a cadet.




P.S. And you're [darn] right I enjoy seeing the cadets jump from their seats when they hear proper command voice!

[DennisH]

...from my experience it feels weird barking commands as a 1LT 1st Lt.

If you're "barking" at anyone in CAP, you're doing it wrong.

Sir, prepatory command an command of execution, to some barking to others being an NCO, haven't been doing it wrong for the last 35 years, don't seem to be doing it wrong now. Barking isn't yelling or demeaning Cadets or Seniors, to many giving basic commands sound like they are whispering. Commands are made to be heard or not made at all.

[Garibaldi]

...from my experience it feels weird barking commands as a 1LT 1st Lt.

If you're "barking" at anyone in CAP, you're doing it wrong.

Sir, prepatory command an command of execution, to some barking to others being an NCO, haven't been doing it wrong for the last 35 years, don't seem to be doing it wrong now.

Yeah, I read that wrong too, figured it out on a re-read. But you see the point. Some people would consider barking a command to be "STRAIGHTEN THAT GIG LINE, PRIVATE!" rather than a preparatory command.

[DennisH]

I think a lot of  it has to do with self view, while a Former NCO regardless of service should be able to impart knowledge and experience  as a CAP officer I think, at least from my experience it feels weird barking commands as a 1LT. No insult, no superiority complex, no disrespect of any kind intended to the hard working seniors in the program.  My Commander has me at the beginning and the end of each meeting call the Squadron to attention. It must have to do with my natural tendency to revert to my NCO voice. Iam sure their are hundreds of CAP officers out there that can do the same.
As for PD I never intended to imply that I would just show up for meetings and leave the heavy lifting for others. I think and have been told that I do my fare share and then some. I don't have an ego and my last feeling died years ago. I push other Seniors around me to get promoted and advance all the time. I want others to out distance me and out rank me. Is it really that wrong to not put oneself above others? I don't plan on vegetating and becoming stale, I plan on learning since I a very new to the program. My biggest handicap is my prior service, I am relearning the CAP Air Force way which in itself is a task.
For me at least I thinks iris kore of being out of my comfort zone and in a strange new place, I guess I will adjust in time, but as long as I am contributing and the program doesn't suffer from having a stubborn old Former  1SG then it's all good.

It comes with being the leadership officer, and if the CC want to use you for that purpose.


I get to do it from time to time, I don't think I was chosen for the role due to my command voice learned as a cadet.




P.S. And you're [darn] right I enjoy seeing the cadets jump from their seats when they hear proper command voice!

Roger that Sir!

[lordmonar]

Well.....there is two ways to look at this.

On the surface level "there is no need for the NCO/Officer distinction in a volunteer organization (i.e. CAP)" I agree.  With CAP normally arranged with all the senior members are officers....yes there is no need for NCOs.

On the other level.......where CAP ranks mean absolutely zero in the sense that AD ranks mean.....and we have discussed this ad nasieum in other threads......it makes no difference if I'm an NCO or Officer.

[DennisH]

...from my experience it feels weird barking commands as a 1LT 1st Lt.

If you're "barking" at anyone in CAP, you're doing it wrong.

Sir, prepatory command an command of execution, to some barking to others being an NCO, haven't been doing it wrong for the last 35 years, don't seem to be doing it wrong now.

Yeah, I read that wrong too, figured it out on a re-read. But you see the point. Some people would consider barking a command to be "STRAIGHTEN THAT GIG LINE, PRIVATE!" rather than a preparatory command.

Sir, I see what you mean, I don't conduct uniform corrections with the Cadets, that's for their chain of command, sometimes with a little whisper from me if they miss something.  I do my best to stay out of their buisness so they can learn without meddling from me. The NCOs are getting it and these days they are running around squaring things away by themselves for their officers. It's a real nice change from what was going on.

[hhbooker2]

I could not help but notice that the U.S.R.C. asks for a sixty dollar fee to join and I gather its US$60 a year? Plantation, Florida also plays host to a group of people who wear  a field uniform like worn in Afghanistan by U.S. Army soldiers, but they have no patches on them and these people solicit money from passing motorists with large KFC type cardboard buckets we used to get Colonel Sander's Kentucky Fried Chicken. Its said some are not prior service, but that I cannot be certain, but there are others here in Florida who appear to me quasi-military? Florida Guard Association appeared to have a number of general officers, but they shut down as Florida has no state defense force and unlikely to get one. Why those groups don't wear a service uniform I do not understand? They appear to wear camouflage field uniforms and like someone said, no one is a private, specialist, corporal or sergeant and perhaps no warrant officers or maybe anyone not a colonel? We have a lot of retired U.S.Armed Forces people here, don't think they want to don a uniform, do see them at the VFW when we sometimes go there for Friday afternoon dinner. They have dances, music and some sort of machine like a slot machine that does not pay off in cash? Getting back to the C.A.P. and enlisted rank, seems unlikely anytime soon? I'd rather give my dues to the C.A.P., not keen on camouflage and combat boots! 

[Eclipse]

There's a lot of paramilitary groups all over the country that do and wear all sorts of things.

Some are benevolent, some benign, and some are actually belligerent against the government.  A lot of them just like to play commando.
Bringing action against them is expensive, complicated, and in some cases actually bolsters their position in whatever "community" they
exist.  Barring them doing something other then just wearing military uniforms, it's generally not worth the government's time to pursue it.

CAP, on the other hand, is under the direct control and authority of the USAF (through various channels), and the reality is that,
no matter what the guard, SDF's, or even "Tommy's Troopers" do, the USAF can dictate our uniforms all day long, and so far they
have chosen to to just that, to varying degrees.

My distance-based perception is that the USAF has been very reasonable to requests that go through proper channels, and
less so when our leadership acts unilaterally without thought to how our parent service might feel.

[SarDragon]

Back to the NCO thing.

I became a WO in CAP when I went on active duty, having previously been a C/WO as a cadet. I became an NCO in the Navy a year later. I had the option of being an NCO or officer in CAP, and chose officer.

The structure of CAP has never really lent itself to having an NCO corps to match the military. In the military there is a progression in skills and education related to a specific job. E-1 - E-3 are pure worker bees, NCOs have advanced job skills, and beginning supervisory skills, and senior NGOs are middle managers. CAP doesn't have enough jobs or diversity in structure to need all the extra boxes in the org chart that would come about from adding NCOs, or all enlisted ranks, to the mix.

Some of you want NCOs, but still haven't come up with a valid need.

[Ned]

Of course we have.  You just personally disagree with it. 

I could profitably employ a thousand NCOs in the cadet program tomorrow.  And the cadet program is the largest part of CAP.  Every cadet unit should have 2-3 NCOs to mentor and train cadets, and assist in program administration.  Every group, wing, and region CP shop should have 3-4 senior NCOs to train and coordinate the subordinate unit's NCOs, as well as assist in the administration of the shop.

It bears repeating that every single military organization in the world since the Romans has employed both officer and NCOs.  (Even Star Fleet had yeomen and Chiefs.).

And of course CAP has had an active NCO program for the majority of our existence.  Somewhere along the line the (recently departed) National Board apparently decided that Wilson, Curry, and Spaatz got it wrong when they included a vibrant NCO program in CAP.  I just wish they had left a message as to why.

I have been briefed that the CAP NCO program is pending approval at the Air Staff level.  We should get a final answer soon.

[Garibaldi]

I would trade in my Majority for a crack at being a senior NCO, like a SSGT or TSGT. I get more done as a "grunt" than as an administrator.

[stillamarine]

I would live to progress as an NCO rather than as an officer. But with no current affiliation with the military I'd be stuck. I believe it should progress with pd just like the officers but that's me. Don't see why it wouldn't work. There are 5 officer ranks I can make with just pd achievements. Align the 5 NCO ranks along the same achievements. But hey that's just my thoughts. Maybe when I affiliate over to the reserves I'll trade my bars in.

[Bobble]

I have been briefed that the CAP NCO program is pending approval at the Air Staff level.  We should get a final answer soon.

You've certainly got my attention, Sir!  But does that mean that A) The CAP NCO program is pending approval to start the development of said program from a "square one" status, or B) An actual draft CAP NCO program been submitted for review and comment as part of the approval process.  Just curious.

[Eclipse]

I have been briefed that the CAP NCO program is pending approval at the Air Staff level.  We should get a final answer soon.

Excellent, just what CAP needs, another artificial caste system to separate people even more, and / or cause and means
for members to further disassociate themselves from the whole of CAP by simply saying "I can't help, I'm a Cadet Program NCO (etc.)."

We already have cadres of pilots who will do nothing but fly, etc., etc.  Who's supposed to keep this ship running
if we keep finding more ways to let people specialize and disavow larger responsibilities?

In a volunteer organization, where SMWOG command squadrons and 2-stars empty trash cans, there is no
separated system of "doers" and "managers", at there isn't supposed to be.  NCOs exist to ensure the health, welfare, and preparedness,
of those at the lowest rungs who are sworn to execute the 1/2-baked ideas of the officers above them to the point of death, if necessary.

But in CAP there's no enlisted corps to "protect", essentially everyone in CAP is "enlisted" if you look at the distribution of duties.

This idea that NCO's can somehow be "more valuable" to training cadets then anyone else in similar circumstances simply isn't
true except at the most basic level of cadet training, and as we've seen in this and other recent threads, NCOs are reluctant
to "shed the mantle" even to the point of misguidedly encouraging cadets to delay promotion in favor of the "NCO experience",
which actually runs counter to the cadet oath and the curriculum.

We need tenfold of the NCOs we have to join CAP, not to be "NCOs", but to be members service the program and the
membership as it exists, and not try to reshape the cadet corps or the program as a whole into something it's not.

[Major Carrales]

The question has always been to identify the need for an NCO corps in CAP.  Yes, there is great merit in being a Non-Commissioned officer in the military, but in that context (the military) they serve a special function in the operation of a unit.  The have also "come up the ranks" to reach that position and are, some would say by that alone, more experienced in their fields and service than (as is pointed out) an ROTC 2d Lt that only as cadet experiences in a "lab setting" to prepare them. (and you all know what I refer to, no STRAWMEN please...lol) They, thus, represent a continued linage going back a long way that allows units to function.

Is that how NCOs would work in CAP?  Does a CAP unit function like a military unit? What translates and what does not?

Could the SMWOG that walks in and does not want to be an officer get a chance to be "enlisted?"How would CAP NCOs relate to CAP officers?  Would NCOs have to treat CAP OFFICERS as RM NCOs treat RM officers?  Could they command squadrons?  Wings?

The fact remains that CAP structure differs in style and function on so many levels.  We don't really have "enlisted" and "officer" person in the same sense that the military does.  Our rank/grade reflects movement in a professional development setting or some skill.

[RiverAux]

I may have been in CAP FAR longer than I've been in the Army, but I'm distinctly... uncomfortable wearing any CAP uniform that has my CAP Rank on it.

I think this is the problem -- many of those who want NCO ranks want it because they have a problem believing that the CAP system is valid simply because it is much easier to progress in than the real military.  However, you're missing the point is that a CAP Major is nothing more than a CAP Major.  It says absolutely nothing about real military ranks any more than it does when a police department uses officer ranks.  They're just not comparable. 

So, why should CAP institute a whole different rank system just because a tiny, tiny number of members basically feel that CAP officer rank is somehow an affront to the military? 

I could profitably employ a thousand NCOs in the cadet program tomorrow. 

The thing is that you have them right now.  They're already in CAP.  Unless you think that somehow this is going to cause a significant increase in recruiting of people that would only join CAP if they could become NCOs.  I think there is zero possibility of that. 

And quite frankly, if someone is only willing to join CAP as an NCO, then I'm not sure I really want them around because the implied attitude is that they don't think the rest of us deserve the CAP rank that we have earned through the CAP system. 

So, the idea is that we need former NCOs to be wearing chevrons in order for them to be effective in teaching cadets?  Where is the evidence that this is not happening now?  MSgt Snuffy Smith with 20 years in the military can't figure out how to teach basic drill while wearing Captain's bars?  The cadets ignore him now but will pay attention when he has stripes on? 

Somewhere along the line the (recently departed) National Board apparently decided that Wilson, Curry, and Spaatz got it wrong when they included a vibrant NCO program in CAP. 

There seems little evidence of a "vibrant" NCO system.  The CAP members that have posted here that were around when we had the program seem distinctly ambivalent about it if not downright hostile to it. 

So far as I can tell, the reason that folks think that NCOs have to be CAP NCOs rather than CAP officers is that the NCO rank is "real" and indicates that the person has BTDT.  But, if all we do for the "program" is allow them to promote up as CAP NCOs that almost immediately takes away any extra veneer of legitimacy that these folks would have.

Just to be clear -- I am extremely negative about the so-called program we have now or anything similar.  If we want to redesign the entire senior member program and make everyone work their way up through enlisted ranks to officers (with exceptions similar to what is seen in the military), I can see that having some value to CAP.  Obviously that isn't what is being considered. 

[Major Carrales]

now...if we had a system where people off the street were given Level I and served as an "airman" then trained in a specialty area to work up to a Senior Airman.  At that point, if there were some NCO course work that would make the into NCO grades with Officers being those in command of units of staff positions with promotion based on working in those squadron, groups, wings regions then we would have a system that would place a merit on the NCO as a stage of unit level development.

Issue with this...

1) We already have as "NCO corps" in the from of the Cadet NCO grades.  Confusion?  Redundancy?

2) We forget most units are understaffed as it is.  Do we have the personnel system wide to staff all positions?

3) Would an RM NCO be "offended" at a 10 years CAP developed NCO?

4) What distinguishes the CAP NCO from other officers?  Is it sort of a "club?"  Creating potentially more divisions than originally existed.

[Eclipse]

I'd hazard that there are more military O-6's and O-7(+)'s who are quietly and happily serving as CAP Lt Cols (and below)
and do not feel hamstrung by their inability to serve at their "real" grade, then there are currently NCO's from other services wearing stripes on their CAP uniforms.

If they can somehow cope, why can't NCOs?

Further, there are't NCO jobs in CAP.

There's only two actual roles in CAP for senior members - administrative staff positions engaged in the running of the
organization, and "operational roles" such as aircrew, etc.  Everything else is a derivative of that, and our current manning means in a lot of units (most?) these are the same people.

Any member who find themselves in the "pool" of non-assigned members (i.e not one of the above) are generally not
active enough to need any "care", and if they do, there's a staff officer who's job it is to guide those members into
one of the two categories above.

In a unit with 15 members, are we going to have two NCO's who's only job is to "care" for the other members who
don't need any "care"?

[Major Carrales]

My hope is that great planning, thought and vetting is going into any proposal to "revamp" the NCO corps.  Sometimes the desire to having something supersedes it's viability.  Without that mental "leg work" a haphazardly created NCO system will be more of a hindrance and spark more needles arguing.  Analysis, Synthesis and Evaluation of those plans is crucial; so much these days seems to lack that in favor of "gut" feelings or simple desire and want for something to exist...a strange sense of misunderstanding that places the "romantic" desire to have something regardless of it's function or non-function.

[Eclipse]

Somewhere along the line the (recently departed) National Board apparently decided that Wilson, Curry, and Spaatz got it wrong when they included a vibrant NCO program in CAP. 

When was there ever a "vibrant" NCO program in CAP?  "Seniors wearing stripes" does not equal a "vibrant program".

In my discussions with members still active who were in CAP in the 60's when the "program" was still in place, they
have indicated it was really nothing more then an extended PD program just as as it is today in the cadet cadre.  At least with the cadets they theoretically have some time to work with small squads as they work through the structure.

Also, in the time of Wilson, Spaatz, and Curry, the vast majority of American men had served in the military, most
as enlisted, and many as NCOs, so there was an inherent understanding of the paradigm, which frankly you can never really understand unless you have either lived it, or worked closely with people in that situation.  I certainly had no idea until I spent years working with PO's and Chiefs in their natural habitat.  The aura of the NCO, especially ones with
"heavy stripes", not to mention the inherent separation between officers and enlisted, has to really be "felt" to be understood.

CAP isn't going to "fix" the average person walking in the door with zero idea of the military except FMJ and Platoon, but if experience has taught us nothing, we're really good at misunderstanding situations and taking shortcuts that ultimately wind up in bad feelings and cliques instead of the intended cohesive force.

[Ned]

My hope is that great planning, thought and vetting is going into any proposal to "revamp" the NCO corps.  Sometimes the desire to having something supersedes it's viability.  Without that mental "leg work" a haphazardly created NCO system will be more of a hindrance and spark more needles arguing.  Analysis, Synthesis and Evaluation of those plans is crucial; so much these days seems to lack that in favor of "gut" feelings or simple desire and want for something to exist...a strange sense of misunderstanding that places the "romantic" desire to have something regardless of it's function or non-function.

And my hope is that professional volunteers like yourself have not prejudged and rejected a program you have not seen simply because you literally cannot imagine it working successfully.

While I haven't seen the package either, the very fact that there is a package, it was deemed worthy enough by our senior leadership, and is in the process of being considered and vetted by our AF colleagues at the highest levels suggests to me that there is at least some merit to the concept, despite the comments we have seen in this thread made by good officers who simply have never worked in a system with successful NCOs.

And I'll even grant everyone still reading this far that an successful NCO program is not necessary for us to continue at our current level of success.  Clearly we are doing OK currently, and the world will not end if we do not upgrade our current program.  Perhaps this is one of those "reasonable minds can differ" things.

But to me, at least, the question becomes "how much better we can become -- not just in CP, but all of our missions -- with the advantages offered by a successful NCO program?"  And to judge by every single other military (and as far as I know, paramilitary) program in the world, at least somewhat better and more successful.  A mixture of officers and NCOs is the mainstream position.  We somehow became the exception.

Let's see what our AF colleagues think of the proposal.

[Major Carrales]

Ned, do not misunderstand.   I hold no prejudiced views...I believe that the "Devil's Advocacy" needs to be done before things are put into effect rather than the "why didn't anyone think of this" afterwards.  To often are things just "leaped into" with both legs.

These things I say are not as much "criticism" as they are a desire to "think critically" about it.  I am a Squadron Commander in a frontier squadron, I am almost 2 hours from the nearest USAF post and, while I have all sorts of interest in the cadet program, recruiting on the senior side has not been successful.  Now, some rumor comes to light of an NCO program.  What effect is it going to have?  We all have the right to ask that question and ask of our leadership that the process be vetted, planned and made subject to "Devil's Advocacy."

I know I don't want "NCO CORPS at ANY COST" because people have wanted it.  If that is the case, I will point of when this was being done is Iowa a long time back when there was talk of an NCO corps.  What made that effort fail and what was different this time.  All valid questions.

[Eclipse]

But to me, at least, the question becomes "how much better we can become -- not just in CP, but all of our missions --

By actually working the program we have, without the distraction of trivial change.

[NCRblues]

Wait wait... What proposal? I'm confused I guess.

Where did this come from? Is this a left over of the defunct national board? Why is a member of the BOG saying he has not seen it, but it's pending approval at the AF?

[Ned]

Wait wait... What proposal? I'm confused I guess.

Where did this come from? Is this a left over of the defunct national board? Why is a member of the BOG saying he has not seen it, but it's pending approval at the AF?

I guess I'm confused about why you are confused.

I'm saying I haven't seen it because I haven't seen it.  The BoG sets policy, we don't approve every piece of mail that leaves NHQ.  Clearly our existing policy is to have an NCO program because we currently have an NCO program.  (IOW, if the BoG decided to change our policy and eliminate the NCO program, we could do that. But we haven't.)

We don't wordsmith regulations or micromanage how existing programs are run.  (Arguably, that is one of happy results from recent changes in  CAP governance.)  So there is no reason for the BoG to see and approve modifications intended to improve an existing program.

But our AF colleagues do in this particular case.  So at the direction of our National Commander, the staff carefully assembled a package which was sent forward for approval by our AF friends.  No big mystery.

[Eclipse]

Clearly our existing policy is to have an NCO program because we currently have an NCO program.

Allowing members to wear stripes from another service is not an NCO "program".

[NCRblues]

Wait wait... What proposal? I'm confused I guess.

Where did this come from? Is this a left over of the defunct national board? Why is a member of the BOG saying he has not seen it, but it's pending approval at the AF?

I guess I'm confused about why you are confused.

I'm saying I haven't seen it because I haven't seen it.  The BoG sets policy, we don't approve every piece of mail that leaves NHQ.  Clearly our existing policy is to have an NCO program because we currently have an NCO program.  (IOW, if the BoG decided to change our policy and eliminate the NCO program, we could do that. But we haven't.)

We don't wordsmith regulations or micromanage how existing programs are run.  (Arguably, that is one of happy results from recent changes in  CAP governance.)  So there is no reason for the BoG to see and approve modifications intended to improve an existing program.

But our AF colleagues do in this particular case.  So at the direction of our National Commander, the staff carefully assembled a package which was sent forward for approval by our AF friends.  No big mystery.

Ok, thank you. I am no longer confused on the situation.

I obviously was not aware of such a thought or proposal in the works, and was in all honestly a little shocked in the fact of one was done and gone on to high already.

Thanks for the update Ned.

[Ned]

Clearly our existing policy is to have an NCO program because we currently have an NCO program.

Allowing members to wear stripes from another service is not an NCO "program".

While not agreeing with your personal characterization of the program,  I suspect we can agree that the program can be improved.  Hence the pending package.  You should be pleased.

I've got to be up early, so I'm done for the night.

[RiverAux]

The only "improvements" that I recall as being noted as being discussed in official circles have involved the development of a way for existing NCOs to get CAP rank promotions.  That doesn't at all address the basic issue of the purpose of having NCOs in the first place which seems to be the main point of contention. 

If something more than that is being considered, we're in the dark about it. 

[Eclipse]

The only "improvements" that I recall as being noted as being discussed in official circles have involved the development of a way for existing NCOs to get CAP rank promotions.  That doesn't at all address the basic issue of the purpose of having NCOs in the first place which seems to be the main point of contention. 

+1

[lordmonar]

I have been briefed that the CAP NCO program is pending approval at the Air Staff level.  We should get a final answer soon.

Excellent, just what CAP needs, another artificial caste system to separate people even more, and / or cause and means
for members to further disassociate themselves from the whole of CAP by simply saying "I can't help, I'm a Cadet Program NCO (etc.)."

We already have cadres of pilots who will do nothing but fly, etc., etc.  Who's supposed to keep this ship running
if we keep finding more ways to let people specialize and disavow larger responsibilities?

In a volunteer organization, where SMWOG command squadrons and 2-stars empty trash cans, there is no
separated system of "doers" and "managers", at there isn't supposed to be.  NCOs exist to ensure the health, welfare, and preparedness,
of those at the lowest rungs who are sworn to execute the 1/2-baked ideas of the officers above them to the point of death, if necessary.

But in CAP there's no enlisted corps to "protect", essentially everyone in CAP is "enlisted" if you look at the distribution of duties.

This idea that NCO's can somehow be "more valuable" to training cadets then anyone else in similar circumstances simply isn't
true except at the most basic level of cadet training, and as we've seen in this and other recent threads, NCOs are reluctant
to "shed the mantle" even to the point of misguidedly encouraging cadets to delay promotion in favor of the "NCO experience",
which actually runs counter to the cadet oath and the curriculum.

We need tenfold of the NCOs we have to join CAP, not to be "NCOs", but to be members service the program and the
membership as it exists, and not try to reshape the cadet corps or the program as a whole into something it's not.

That's because you want all CAP members to be everything in CAP........and that is just not realistic.....not in the real military, in a real school, in a real company.

People specialize......they do what they are trained for and paid for.

What your real problem is......it is not that individuals don't want to help out other aspects of the program.......it is that NO ONE TELLS THEM THEY HAVE TO.  Squadron X with an airplane is not mandated to fly X number of O-rides each month.

Pilot Y.....just wants to fly SAR missions....what the hell is wrong with that?   
If you need someone to do something else.....as well as fly SAR missions.....either ground Pilot Y or find another pilot to do it.

I hate this us vs them attitude.

[lordmonar]

now...if we had a system where people off the street were given Level I and served as an "airman" then trained in a specialty area to work up to a Senior Airman.  At that point, if there were some NCO course work that would make the into NCO grades with Officers being those in command of units of staff positions with promotion based on working in those squadron, groups, wings regions then we would have a system that would place a merit on the NCO as a stage of unit level development.

Issue with this...

1) We already have as "NCO corps" in the from of the Cadet NCO grades.  Confusion?  Redundancy?

2) We forget most units are understaffed as it is.  Do we have the personnel system wide to staff all positions?

3) Would an RM NCO be "offended" at a 10 years CAP developed NCO?

4) What distinguishes the CAP NCO from other officers?  Is it sort of a "club?"  Creating potentially more divisions than originally existed.

3 don't count.  As it has been that way for every anyways with the officer corps. 

[Eclipse]

Pilot Y.....just wants to fly SAR missions....what the hell is wrong with that?   

Because we are not staffed or manned for people to join and cherry pick what they want to do while letting the rest of the organization
carry the load that lets them do "x".

What your real problem is......it is not that individuals don't want to help out other aspects of the program.......it is that NO ONE TELLS THEM THEY HAVE TO.  Squadron X with an airplane is not mandated to fly X number of O-rides each month.

Certainly a big part of the overall problem.

[Major Carrales]

now...if we had a system where people off the street were given Level I and served as an "airman" then trained in a specialty area to work up to a Senior Airman.  At that point, if there were some NCO course work that would make the into NCO grades with Officers being those in command of units of staff positions with promotion based on working in those squadron, groups, wings regions then we would have a system that would place a merit on the NCO as a stage of unit level development.

Issue with this...

1) We already have as "NCO corps" in the from of the Cadet NCO grades.  Confusion?  Redundancy?

2) We forget most units are understaffed as it is.  Do we have the personnel system wide to staff all positions?

3) Would an RM NCO be "offended" at a 10 years CAP developed NCO?

4) What distinguishes the CAP NCO from other officers?  Is it sort of a "club?"  Creating potentially more divisions than originally existed.

3 don't count.  As it has been that way for every anyways with the officer corps.

I can see where you are coming from.  It has been suggeested that the proposal only provides for NCOs to get promoted up from the PM grade...that is only speculation and I will submit it as suspect on those grounds.  This has generated quite an distrubance here from the tenor of the discussion.  Thsi returns us to some fundamental questions.

1) What is the actual proposal?

2) Do we need an NCO corps?

3) What benefit does it provide system wide?

4) What is the role of the NCO?

and so on.

My main concern at this point is that someone somewhere has asked and answered these questions before making proposals and send them to the USAF.  I am not bashing the "brass," only expressing the hope that it was done with more than just "desire" as an impetus.

[hhbooker2]

As I was a professional sign painter and also worked as a graphic artist, wanted to letter the signs for all of the C.A.P. squadrons in Los Angeles County and to do their posters, banners, etc., but our commanding officer did not want for me to assist other squadrons as well. I asked why can't I assist them all as we are the same family and wear the same uniform. They had no job description was the second answer, they wanted me to be a Public Affairs Officer and promoted me to Second Lieutenant, of course I asked not to be commissioned and to remain a Senior Member. The orders came down and on those orders I was promoted and demoted on the same letter - believe it or not? If I could not be an Airman or a Sergeant, Senior Member was just fine. I was ten pounds over the weight standard and told I could not wear the uniform until I shed the weight, but I did not join for the uniform and could serve as their P.A.O. and wore a business suit with a necktie. I never argued with them when they said they did not want to help the other units they considered competition. Later went to work at LeBeau Embroidery as a graphic artist making should sleeve insignia for Colonel Lee Baumount in L.A., he was a retied USAF officer. Maybe its the case that assignments are not delegated as they should be because people meet once a month for a few hours and don't have the time to draft a more comprehensive work schedule for volunteers like Pilot "Y" who wants to fly "Search & Rescue" mission?

[lordmonar]

Pilot Y.....just wants to fly SAR missions....what the hell is wrong with that?   

Because we are not staffed or manned for people to join and cherry pick what they want to do while letting the rest of the organization
carry the load that lets them do "x".

The duties of commander....any commander is to man, equip and train his unit to accomplish assigned missions.

"we are not staffed...." is not an acceptable answer.  For two reasons.  1)  We are a volunteer organization.....people are going to do what they HAVE TO do in order to what they WANT to do.  2) Not everyone is cut out to be all things....nor should they be expected to.

Everyone must be a CP officer.  Everyone must be an IC, GTM1, MP, AOBD etc. et al.  Everyone must be an AE officer, a personnel officer, Professional Development Officer....etc. and so on.

No.....that is simply not realistic.

It would really really really nice that every parent of a cadet is 100% into being a CP officer, and learning all there is to know about admin or supply and would just love to get into ES, and also has a flair for doing AE presentations.......so we have a guy who is into all phases of our program.

But that's not the way it is.   I would rather recruit 10 members to do 10 different small things then try to force the guy who just want to fly SAR stuff, or just work with cadets, or just do paperwork......to do something they don't want to do.

I will of course always encourage our members to expand and try other things.......but I will not give those who just want to X a hard time for NOT supporting "the whole mission".

[/rant]