When are Cadets, Cadets?

[tsrup]

I don't hold cadets to any different standard than I hold myself.
Simple.

For those who haven't gathered by now, I am a college student.
And when CAP started to make a bigger presence on social networking sites, it was brought to my attention that my Facebook account (with a growing number of cadets throughout the wing adding me as "friends") was less than exemplary.  Now even though my settings were so that any cadet couldn't see anything on my profile or any of my pictures (college being college), I still removed everything that could misrepresent CAP. 
Why?  Simple.  No matter what happens in my life with whatever uniform I wear or don't.  As long as I carry a valid CAP ID I am a member of Civil Air Patrol in the public eye. 
If I get a DUI.  It's not just a person getting a DUI, its a CAP Officer getting one.  If I get belligerently drunk, it's not just another college guy doing what college guys do, it's a CAP officer.

Do you think it will matter what uniform you were wearing while you smoked pot if you had to show up to your next squadron meeting trying to explain to your cadets how they're not supposed to do drugs?  We set an example to our cadets and are supposed to be role models throughout every facet of life.

Does this mean no smoking (tobacco) or drinking?  No, absolutely not.  Just do them as responsibly as possible, because like it or not, you are representing CAP.  Perception is reality.

The same applies to cadets.  As long as anyone, and I mean ANYONE, knows that you are a cadet your actions will reflect on CAP regardless if you are wearing a uniform or not.  If you get a minor, you are a CADET who got a minor, not just a regular person. 

We in CAP hold ourselves to a higher standard, and thats the fact of the matter, because we are ALWAYS representing our organization as long as ANYONE knows we are a part of it.

[lordmonar]

The question, and the issue I bring up here is Cadet/Senior relations, away from CAP.

Now, my original understanding when I was a cadet was that I was a cadet only when I was representing CAP in some fashion. I mean, there were a few cadets whose parents were senior members, so there had to be a line when I stopped being a complete cadet.

Regrettably, it was this very issue that forced me to adopt my gray shoulder boards and nameplate at 18. A few years ago, I was having a discussion on Facebook regarding political issues with some of my high school friends. A Captain that added me as a friend immediately jumped into the conversation, and his comment was tantamount to accusing myself of being Anti-American. Taking huge offense, I replied, addressing him as "Mr. <name>." He dodged the issue and proceeded to chastise me for not addressing him as Captain. The next meeting, I was questioned about it by my commander. In frustruration, I returned next week with a CAPF12 filled out and on my commander's desk, along with my cadet grade insignia.

Now, I'm glad that until I hit 21, I'm just Mr. Krapenhoeffer in any CAP-related situation. Now, I personally believe that out of uniform, and away from CAP, cadets should treat their senior members with the same respect they would show their good teachers at school. I also believe that senior members should not be addressed by their CAP grade when away from CAP-related activities. I mean, except for Col and above, our grade as senior members only reflects our progression within the Professional Development program, and carries no authority with it. We are not "real" officers, and are only afforded the privilege of military grade insignia. Everyone has to agree that CAP does not define one's life, unlike military service, which does.

I have not read the rest of the thread....but to answer your question....you are always a cadet and I am always a SM....and we both are always Representatives of the CAP and by extention the USAF.  On or off duty, in or out of uniform.

Period....end of message.

Granted there are down times when you can relax and be easy.  When military protocol is not always 100% but the fact is cadets are always cadets and SM are always Senior Members.

Your actions "on your own time" can and do reflect and can affect your performance at CAP.

Here are a few examples...as supported by the regulations.

School performance.
Senior/Cadet relationships. (you can't date a senior no matter where or when).
You can be 2b'ed for conduct away from CAP activities.
And your personal conduct as a "civilian" reflects on your promot ability in CAP. (I had a cadet be picked up for stealing....and I held back a promotion for six months).

While it the SM may have been out of line for giving you grief over the "Mr. Bagodonuts vs Capt Bagodonuts" the fact remains is that he is always a SM and you (were) always a cadet and it does reflect and carry over.

[DogCollar]

Senior Members should NOT be held to the same standards as cadets.  Senior Members should be held to a higher standard...and by a WIDE margin.  Senior Members are role models, even if we do not work directly with Cadets.  Smoking, drinking and other "lawful" activities may not be restricted by regulation, but Senior Members need to go above and beyond regulations, where behavior is concerned...because we are role models.  That's written between the lines of CAP membership.

The Senior Member who calls a cadet on the carpet for having a political debate on a social networking site is not being a good role model, in my opinion.  Political speech is protected by the constitution and cannot be hindered by Civil Air Patrol, officially or unofficially, unless the individual is in uniform or officially representing Civil Air Patrol. 

Senior Members who regularly "troll" social media sites to reign in cadet thought and speech need to be reigned in themselves.  They are opening themselves and the organization up for recriminations, in my opinion.

[Dad2-4]

Having been in Scouting for roughly 33 years, fellow Scouters and Scouts have had the discussion may times of whether or not on is a Scout/Scouter while not in uniform and not at a meeting. The general view has always turned the fact that we are all members of the organization and have pledged to abide by the Scout Oath and Scout Law.
Having said that, in reading this thread, my mind turns to the fact that as long as one is a member of the organization, be it as a cadet or SM, we voluntarily subscribed to the Cadet Oath and/or the oath of membership, particularly the part that says, "I voluntarily subscribe to the objectives and purposes of the Civil Air Patrol and agree to be guided by CAP Core Values, Ethics Policies, ...."
Is a cadet always a cadet? My answer is that as long as they hold current membership, then they should be striving in their daily lives to behave morally and ethically as a cadet. SMs should likewise be striving in their daily lives to behave in a way that would bring credit to the organization.
I totally agree with the comment above that if we screw up it gets reported as a CAP officer screwing up because it tends to happen with  people of my religion. News reports rarely fail to mention the person's religion.

[Rotorhead]

For those who believe cadets need only be cadets while in uniform..

Do you also agree that they only need to adhere to CAP's Core Values while in uniform, too?

Seems like they wouldn't mean much if that's the case.

[Stonewall]

In DCWG we had a cadet get suspended from school for changing grades on his report card.  He was suspended from CAP as well.  He never returned.

I say you're a cadet 24/7, but use good judgement.  If you see a senior member at a football game, don't salute them.  If you're at school, don't cheat.  If your and your dad are members, don't report to him for breakfast.  And don't call your fellow cadets "Sergeant" or "sir" when you pass them in the halls at school.

It's more about conduct and integrity.  Doing what is right, even when no one is looking. 

[ZigZag911]

WIWAC some of us had friends whose parents were seniors; there would occasionally be a social occasion (summer cookout, graduation party)....at those times, we cadets always erred on the side of courtesy, using the senior's rank until/unless instructed "please call me Mr/Mrs ______ when we're not a CAP activity".

When I was a group CC some years ago I was teaching a summer evening course in a local college, which had rented out its auditorium for a high school graduation. During a break I'm standing on the front steps as the graduation ceremony participants leave the building and are milling around. I see a young man, 12-13 y.o., in civvies of course, whose face I recognized from a recent squadron visit, suddenly standing in front of me snapping off a parade ground salute (as I fumbled to pocket my cell phone!)

Naturally I returned his salute (with as much seriousness as he had put into his), told him it was nice to see him and I appreciated him taking the time to greet me. I also mentioned that it was great that he had learned his leadership lab so well (saluting an officer on recognition), but explained that generally CAP officers would not expect a salute outside CAP.

He walked off with a big grin; I stood there shaking my head over what small world it is (my group covered 7 of NJ's 21 counties!)

[Майор Хаткевич]

Yeah, I probably would, and most certainly have in the past.  Also, any cadet who said "Duh, Sir!" would probably be OK in my book.

For the record I know USAFAUX2004 personally, he has served me in an exemplary fashion a number of times...I doubt he took it anyway but in jest.

^^^Eclipse certainly isn't a Drill Sergeant type of officer. He has a heart and a soul. Obviously, due to our familiarity spanning some five plus years now, our conversations here on CAPTalk have been less than formal.

As for the "Duh" comment, I did indeed take it jest. Sometimes, and this really is on a case to case basis, the "kid gloves(TM)", aren't needed. At the end of my active CAP participation, I was 17-18, and knew most SM leaders in my unit as well as a few from other local units. The understanding was, while I'm a cadet I don't get to hear the "beer talk" topics, but I also don't get treated as a ten year old.

But back to my stance, where I see people using false logic. I don't believe in the core values because I'm a cadet. CAP can't teach me that, my family did and CAP built on that. Just because I believe I'm not a cadet 24/7, doesn't mean I turn into a savage rebel. But as I pointed out, while cadets are prohibited from smoking at CAP activities/in uniform, it is completely acceptable for them to do so outside of CAP over the age of 18. Same applies for airsoft and paintball and dozens of other CAP prohibited activities.

[lordmonar]

True...there are activities that you can't do on CAP time but you can do on your own time.

But the point I am trying to make is, your "off duty" conduct and behavior does have implications to your CAP career.

You are a cadet 24/7....and I am a SM 24/7.

Does that mean you got to call the room to attention when I walk into the Mc Donald's that you are working at?  NO....no one is suggesting that either.

But if you steal from that Mc Donald's or do a great job at that Mc Donald's.....either of these actions could and should reflect upon your CAP life.

This does not mean that you got to be 100% gung ho AF Blue 24/7......heck even AD USAF are not.  We take leave, down time, decompress, have social occasions, call the Col the "old man" and the Lieutenants "Lt"....heck we have even call subordinates and supervisors by their first names!

There is a time and place for everything....including military protocol.......but end of the day....you ARE a CAP member 24/7.  What you do reflects on yourself and the organisation and what you do can be used against or for you in respect to your CAP career.

[Krapenhoeffer]

Okay, others have stated what I meant better than I. Yes, Cadets and Senior Members are accountable for their actions at all times. I've seen my share of Senior Members in my squadron, who believe that Cadets have to be Gung Ho Blue 24/7. And I didn't agree.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Okay, others have stated what I meant better than I. Yes, Cadets and Senior Members are accountable for their actions at all times. I've seen my share of Senior Members in my squadron, who believe that Cadets have to be Gung Ho Blue 24/7. And I didn't agree.

Which is what I'm arguing against. Obviously I'll show respect to SMs when I meet them outside of CAP, but that's just how I was brought up to treat adults.

In fact, even though I know Eclipse, I can't think of him as anything but Sir/Major Eclipse. To use his first name, or even last just doesn't sit right, and it has nothing to do with CAP, just general life experience to date - he has more. One day, maybe once I'm over 21 for a while, maybe we'll have "a cold one" and maybe he'll tell me to call him by his first name. But who knows, maybe when he asks, I'll just reply "Yes Sir".

[Major Carrales]

There must exist at all time a level of mutual respect between CAP Officers and CAP Cadets.  This is the mark of simple civility and the nature of the program. 

The Cadet Oath... "obey my officers..." and CAP Core Value of Respect are more "clear" that most will give creedence too in this thread.  When at a CAP activity, the SM is to provide clear orders in the scope of the activity that are followed by the cadets.  That ends once the activity is over and the uniform is hanging in the closet.  RESPECT, however, continues so long as a cadet and senior is active.  Thus, if I see a cadet at Wal*mart...it is not unusual for the cadet to refer to me as "Major" and me to respond by calling the cadet "Cadet" or by their grade.  It would, however, not be correct for me to start ordering the cadet to assist with my shopping or move something.  Now, I could ask if I was having difficulty or the cadet could offer.  That simple off hours exchange might reflect that true "respect" exists.  (a person often had an understanding for those that they respect, the resultant is that they want to help them...not of obligation, but out of simple decency and civility.)

I expect both senior and cadet members off CAP duty to refrain from using profanity around each other or/and end any public display of affection in which they might be engaged simply as a from of respect.

It seems to me that some of the cadet and former cadet members who have posted in this thread have some problem with their Senior Members...  I recently visited a military forum where a former CAP cadet was bragging to those threadsters that they, while even at CAP activities, would never bound to follow any order from any CAP member because they were not commissioned members of the US Armed Forces.  That they even laughed in the fact of a CAP cadet NCO.

Sorry to break it to that person, but when you join an organization you bind yourself to its constitution, rules, laws, culture and heritage.  If you intend to benefit from CAP, you had best as well follow the rules or it is time for you to go.  If you can't stand the idea that a CAP officer, or Scout Master, or Navy League Volutneer is your superior...then you need not be members.

Same applies to Senior Members.  You have an obligation to those cadets...to train them, to guide them to good citizenship and to respect that they have "value" more than just being a "mere kid."  I've seen some Senior Members look at cadets as pariahs...worthless things so far removed from them that they are an annoyance.  Cadet pick up on that.  If they know that the Commanding Senior Member doesn't care about them as people with worth, how can that Senior Member expect to be respected.  Also those that suddently become George C. Scott's Patton character and start throwing their weight around.  That attidude is totally counterproductive. 


Simply put...
The Senior Members are, no matter what is said, the "mentor" and the Cadet the "trainee."  Cadets have to respect the Senior Member or, if that cannot be done, they need to leave. Senior Members, too, have a responsibility to respect the Cadets.

[JohnKachenmeister]

He has earned the right to say ""I am prone to violence, and I have papers here to prove that"??

I think the majority of this nation, and the court system disagrees with you, no one "earns the right" to be prone to violence.....

Lighten up, Francis.

BTW, if you are NOT prone to violence, you won't be worth a fart in a windstorm in combat.

[JK657]

Lighten up, Francis.

BTW, if you are NOT prone to violence, you won't be worth a fart in a windstorm in combat.

Times have changed in the military, being "prone to violence" is not in keeping with the current rules of engagement

[NCRblues]

He has earned the right to say ""I am prone to violence, and I have papers here to prove that"??

I think the majority of this nation, and the court system disagrees with you, no one "earns the right" to be prone to violence.....

Lighten up, Francis.

BTW, if you are NOT prone to violence, you won't be worth a fart in a windstorm in combat.

please do not tell me what i would be worth in a combat situation. In fact i have been in those situations on more than one occasion on my two deployments to Iraq, and I performed just fine without being "prone to violence".

Thank you for judging a fellow veteran even before knowing them.

[DakRadz]

I am a cadet at all times. However, I may be somewhat unique.

I represent C.A.P. to most of the people I know, because in a school of 1500, only I am a member. (Yes, I know I need to recruit- let the dog lie for now, hmm? ) Even the ones not in JROTC recognize the subtle C.A.P. uniform quirks- "Hey, why do you have on only 9 ribbons instead of those 30?" "Wow, those rank look way cool... Aren't you an (cadet) officer though?"

I represent AFJROTC, because I am a leader in that as well. The school is fairly familiar with our unit's more public endeavors- Drill, CG, Flag Presentation Team; I command the first and participate in the latter and then some.

I even represent NJROTC because of a now-defunct unit which was my entry into the cadet world. This is half of my resume and gained me TIG reductions in AFJROTC and C.A.P.- I still wear the awards, still use the privileges, and still represent the program in many eyes.

So yes, I would address superiors by their rank if I met them outside of official functions (and I have a lot of superiors ^_^ ) Mostly, though, I say hello, etc., and skedaddle to another area, away from that superior. Only happened once, and we were all leaving the movies anyway. But I have to try to keep myself all-but-saluting as if I were in uniform, because every action is recognized as part of one of those programs. Balancing act, lemme tell ya, trying to be normal yet extremely proper- not necessary a bad thing.

Now, on CAPTalk, I'm always a cadet- official or not, this is still a meeting of the minds for C.A.P. personnel... and trolls. Dirty trolls. But I digress.

I may not say sir, but I do my best to be polite even when dissenting. I recognize that men and women are on here who have been pilots/RM/C.A.P. personnel/etc. before I was a twinkle. Even the ones nearly my age (FO) receive my courtesy because I pledge to obey my officers. At the same time, a lot comes down to (in the Southern words) home trainin'. I was taught to be polite and respectful to my superiors.

I believe I've covered everyone's points, but... I tend to ramble on long posts like this... So here's my basic point.

I witnessed the incident(s) which sparked this thread being started. Things were out of hand a bit. Bottom line is, cadets should be careful what they say and post, and how it's done. Someone above mentioned that many people view this site. All actions have consequences. You could offend someone potentially in your future (or current!) chain of command- then be pushed aside, demoted, held back, or ignored for positions.

And you may never realize what the reason was.

I also try to stay out of the SM v. SM... discussions. As I've said elsewhere, they're unnecessary in most (all) cases

[JoeTomasone]

Same applies to Senior Members.  You have an obligation...

+1, and may I add that Senior Members have an obligation to show the same respect, customs, and courtesies that we expect of Cadets between ourselves, as well?

Too many Senior Members think that these things are optional.

[O-Rex]

The one cardinal rule that I've lived by in CAP is 'maintain your sense of perspective.'  We've chosen to be a part of something bigger than ourselves, and conformed to a set of standards and norms that might be considered a cut above average (or so I'd like to think.)  I don't think anyone expects CAP members, Seniors or Cadets, to 'bleed blue,'  and frankly I would question their social maturity and self-adjustment if they did. 

But more important than a spiffy uniform is the person inside of it, otherwise ribbons are just strips of cloth, and badges are but bits of tinsel.

If you think you might be 'coloring outside the lines,' ask yourself: IS IT LEGAL? WILL ANYONE GET HURT? IS IT SOMETHING I'D WANT SPLAYED ON THE MORNING PAPER? **WOULD I WANT IT TO BE THE SUBJECT OF DISCUSSION AT A SQUADRON MEETING?

Perhaps we don't wear uniforms 24/7, but you don't hang your sense of honor or integrity in the closet until the next CAP event.....     

[Daniel]

Sorry to be that guy.

But if by this logic, If my mom makes Lt, I have to greet her 24/7/365 even at home?

[JoeTomasone]

Sorry to be that guy.

But if by this logic, If my mom makes Lt, I have to greet her 24/7/365 even at home?

As with all things, a good dose of common sense is required.