When are Cadets, Cadets?

[Krapenhoeffer]

The question, and the issue I bring up here is Cadet/Senior relations, away from CAP.

Now, my original understanding when I was a cadet was that I was a cadet only when I was representing CAP in some fashion. I mean, there were a few cadets whose parents were senior members, so there had to be a line when I stopped being a complete cadet.

Regrettably, it was this very issue that forced me to adopt my gray shoulder boards and nameplate at 18. A few years ago, I was having a discussion on Facebook regarding political issues with some of my high school friends. A Captain that added me as a friend immediately jumped into the conversation, and his comment was tantamount to accusing myself of being Anti-American. Taking huge offense, I replied, addressing him as "Mr. <name>." He dodged the issue and proceeded to chastise me for not addressing him as Captain. The next meeting, I was questioned about it by my commander. In frustruration, I returned next week with a CAPF12 filled out and on my commander's desk, along with my cadet grade insignia.

Now, I'm glad that until I hit 21, I'm just Mr. Krapenhoeffer in any CAP-related situation. Now, I personally believe that out of uniform, and away from CAP, cadets should treat their senior members with the same respect they would show their good teachers at school. I also believe that senior members should not be addressed by their CAP grade when away from CAP-related activities. I mean, except for Col and above, our grade as senior members only reflects our progression within the Professional Development program, and carries no authority with it. We are not "real" officers, and are only afforded the privilege of military grade insignia. Everyone has to agree that CAP does not define one's life, unlike military service, which does.

[EMT-83]

Nope.

Cadets will address me as "Captain" and I will address them as "Cadet" regardless of the setting. I've bumped into cadets in public places outside of CAP, and this didn't seem forced or unusual in any way. My son gets a pass on this one; he calls me Dad.  I'm sure he has some more creative nicknames, but not to my face.

I don't socialize with cadets, so this isn't an issue. I have a real life with real friends, so Facebook isn't a problem either.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I'll be a Cadet 24/7 when SMs are SMs 24/7.

Expecting cadets to be cadets 24/7 is just hypocritical

[Eclipse]

Nope.

Cadets will address me as "Captain" and I will address them as "Cadet" regardless of the setting. I've bumped into cadets in public places outside of CAP, and this didn't seem forced or unusual in any way. My son gets a pass on this one; he calls me Dad.  I'm sure he has some more creative nicknames, but not to my face.

I don't socialize with cadets, so this isn't an issue. I have a real life with real friends, so Facebook isn't a problem either.

+1

I'll be a Cadet 24/7 when SMs are SMs 24/7.

Who said they aren't?

[RiverAux]

In so far as we're only talking about proper forms of address in off-duty, non-uniformed situations, yes cadets should address senior members by their rank or sir/maam as appropriate. 

[Майор Хаткевич]

Who said they aren't?

I wasn't aware all SMs gave up smoking and drinking once they joined CAP...

[Eclipse]

Who said they aren't?

I wasn't aware all SMs gave up smoking and drinking once they joined CAP...

Neither is prohibited for senior members above the legal age in their state for those activities.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Who said they aren't?

I wasn't aware all SMs gave up smoking and drinking once they joined CAP...

Neither is prohibited for senior members above the legal age in their state for those activities.

But it is prohibited at CAP activities when cadets are present.

Airsoft is prohibited in CAP, however many cadets participate outside of CAP

We're not talking illegal behaviors here,  but how people behave in CAP is different from other times.

[Krapenhoeffer]

And a Cadet will, and should naturally address a senior member in public by their grade (often to the embarrassment of the Senior Member in question ), because that is where cadets and seniors normally interact with each other.

However, there are situations where I feel that is inappropriate for cadets to address senior members by their grade. Anything that is considered "Thou Shalt Not Discuss When in Uniform," is one of those situations.

This, as I see it, is only an issue with the older, and more mature cadets. And my opinions may come from being a not-so-Senior Member.

This is more of an issue with the rise of the internet, and the following death of privacy. Cadet Programs leadership in my squadron have remarked to me that social networking websites are useful because:

A) It is a very quick and easy means of contacting a cadet for CAP business (I'm sorry, but I didn't have my coffee yet when I asked you on Monday, but are you going to the SAREX this weekend?)

B) It can be used to find if drugs are getting into the squadron. I personally have issues with this, and I've seen cadets 2b'd for pictures they've posted on the internet.

[Eclipse]

Who said they aren't?

I wasn't aware all SMs gave up smoking and drinking once they joined CAP...

Neither is prohibited for senior members above the legal age in their state for those activities.

But it is prohibited at CAP activities when cadets are present.

No, it is not.  Time to brush up on those regs a bit.

Airsoft is prohibited in CAP, however many cadets participate outside of CAP

We're not talking illegal behaviors here,  but how people behave in CAP is different from other times.

You're missing the point - being a member 24x7 doesn't mean CAP has a stranglehold on your personal life, nor can it restrict your
activities during times when you are clearly not at a CAP activity, however it does mean you can be held responsible internally
for actions and behavior outside of CAP.  In fact it's clearly stated as such in the regulations.

[CAPC/officer125]

Usually when I associate with SMs outside CAP, we are still talking CAP, so I still call them, at least, Sir or Ma'am. If we aren't, usually I will still a conversation with Sir or Ma'am. It has become habit, especially now that I am a member of wing staff and associate with more senior members then cadets.

I think that if a cadet acts as a cadet during their regular life, it will help when they are in this situation. Calling teachers Sir and Ma'am should be something they do anyway, in answering questions. It is always good to call people by Mr. or Mrs. and their last name. CAP just exchanges that for a rank.

I may just be preaching to the choir and I know that I don't necessarily follow what I preach, but coming this is coming from the heart of a cadet, not the parents of the cadet through the cadets mouth.

[RiverAux]

In so far as we're only talking about proper forms of address in off-duty, non-uniformed situations, yes cadets should address senior members by their rank or sir/maam as appropriate.

But, I wouldn't freak out if one called me Mr. either. 

[Krapenhoeffer]

You're missing the point - being a member 24x7 doesn't mean CAP has a stranglehold on your personal life, nor can it restrict your
activities during times when you are clearly not at a CAP activity, however it does mean you can be held responsible internally
for actions and behavior outside of CAP.  In fact its clearly stated as such in the regulations.

Cite please!

And I think this lends itself to another question: Do Senior Members need to draw a clearly defined professional line between themselves and cadets?

If that is there, the terms of address stay 24/7. But I feel that if that line is crossed, for anything, the privilege of being addressed by grade is gone.

[Daniel]

I think this question is HIGHLY relative, as it depends on the individual cadet and the situation of the squadron.

For instance I am the only CAP cadet in my school, and am very proud to be in CAP. Once in science class I wasn't being disrespectful or anything; the work was done and I was bored so I started to balance a pencil on my nose, the teacher posed the question of "Is this how you want to represent CAP?" and thats when I learned everything I do from this moment on represents people in my towns opionion of the Civil Air Patrol.

[Ozzy]

Cadets are always cadets 24/7.

However, that doesn't mean that they should always address a senior member by rank in all situations. I believe that you did act appropriately because well... you let common courtesy dictate your actions but some people let their pride get a hold of them. I've generally found that the senior members that are a little more relaxed when met away from CAP are the ones that I like better.

Easiest way to keep it appropriate: cadet says Sir/Ma'am, senior calls by last name.

[Eclipse]

Now, I'm glad that until I hit 21, I'm just Mr. Krapenhoeffer in any CAP-related situation.

No, you are either Flight Officer Krapenhoffer or Senior Member Krapenhoffer, unless you happen to be the only Warrant Officer in CAP, then "Mister" would be appropriate.

We are not "real" officers, and are only afforded the privilege of military grade insignia. Everyone has to agree that CAP does not define one's life, unlike military service, which does.

Your best bet there is to speak only for yourself in that regard.

[biomed441]

Least from my experience as a Cadet, we always addressed seniors by their CAP grade and last name. In most cases we never remembered their first names anyways and were never in a situation where we were in a non CAP environment. Now, as a SM I would say it is proper to address a SM by their CAP grade and last name as well.  If you begin practicing more informal forms of address outside of CAP, you risk that transfering into the CAP arena as well and could present some issues including pushing the line of fraternization. We don't need that in CAP. Now, am I going to flip out of a cadet runs into me at a walmart and doesn't call me Lt? No probably not, but it should at least be a common practice to if nothing else use the proper civilian greeting of sir or ma'am. My 2 cents anyways.

[Eclipse]

You're missing the point - being a member 24x7 doesn't mean CAP has a stranglehold on your personal life, nor can it restrict your
activities during times when you are clearly not at a CAP activity, however it does mean you can be held responsible internally
for actions and behavior outside of CAP.  In fact its clearly stated as such in the regulations.

Cite please!

Seriously?  Were you actually a cadet?  Are you familiar with the oath, or the fact that you can be suspended for something as simple
as poor grades?   How about being arrested, or denigrating CAP?

Do Senior Members need to draw a clearly defined professional line between themselves and cadets?

Yes, absolutely.  AS stated by Captainbob441, in most cases outside family members, there is little reason for CAP seniors to be hanging around with CAP cadets outside of CAP.  I can tell you from experience that little good comes of it, and lots of bad definitely comes of it, many times resulting in more free time on the weekends for the senior.

[Майор Хаткевич]

You're missing the point - being a member 24x7 doesn't mean CAP has a stranglehold on your personal life, nor can it restrict your
activities during times when you are clearly not at a CAP activity, however it does mean you can be held responsible internally
for actions and behavior outside of CAP.  In fact it's clearly stated as such in the regulations.

With which I don't disagree, but clearly I act differently with my friends than with SMs or Cadets at a CAP activity.

As for drinking/smoking while around cadets, beyond the "few drinks" at a banquette, I don't think it's an appropriate behavior for Seniors to do it around cadets. It may not be prohibited, but the regulations I've read have stated that it is discouraged. Further along that line of thinking, cadets are prohibited from smoking at a CAP activity/in uniform, however cadets over the age of 18 may do so when not representing CAP.

[Krapenhoeffer]

With which I don't disagree, but clearly I act differently with my friends than with SMs or Cadets at a CAP activity.

As for drinking/smoking while around cadets, beyond the "few drinks" at a banquette, I don't think it's an appropriate behavior for Seniors to do it around cadets. It may not be prohibited, but the regulations I've read have stated that it is discouraged. Further along that line of thinking, cadets are prohibited from smoking at a CAP activity/in uniform, however cadets over the age of 18 may do so when not representing CAP.

WRONG! Cadets give up the right to smoke as part of being in CAP at anytime.