I will be shutting down the FB page for the MOVA and creating a Group. This will enable me the time to work on it, without having to jump between several different accounts.
Look for CAP Medal of Valor Association. It is for SMV, BMV, and Lifesaving Medal recipients.
How many SMVs are there out there?
Quote from: BHartman007 on November 29, 2013, 06:26:58 PM
How many SMVs are there out there?
You mean
besides the one HWSRN gave himself for helping someone change a tire or whatever it was? ;)
Is it sad that anytime I see "valor" and awards mention, the first thing that comes to mind are fakers?
What if you got put in for one, but found the 2a in a desk drawer about 6 years after the deadline >:D
6 years, signed and dated back then? I'd send it up anyway. ;)
The stories we hear .. that wouldn't be too far out of the spectrum.
Quote from: BHartman007 on November 29, 2013, 06:26:58 PM
How many SMVs are there out there?
Approximately 130 SMV's
Approximately 400 BMV's
These date back 50 years or so total.
Quote from: Flying Pig on November 29, 2013, 07:16:34 PM
What if you got put in for one, but found the 2a in a desk drawer about 6 years after the deadline >:D
Talk to your Chain of Command
Quote from: a2capt on November 29, 2013, 06:58:26 PM
Is it sad that anytime I see "valor" and awards mention, the first thing that comes to mind are fakers?
Fakers as in people not authorized to wear, I am guessing?
I don't want to derail the thread or beat a dead animal..... but
Yeah, I got put in for one and never heard about it, never asked. I later found it in a desk drawer loooooong after the SqCC had moved on. I found the 2a about 5 years or so after the incident. I think there is a 2yr window from the date of the incident. The actual incident was probably 13-14years ago now.
Quote from: a2capt on November 29, 2013, 06:58:26 PM
Is it sad that anytime I see "valor" and awards mention, the first thing that comes to mind are fakers?
Probably meaning the HUGE number of incidents of military posers floating around these days.
Quote from: a2capt on November 29, 2013, 07:21:06 PM
6 years, signed and dated back then? I'd send it up anyway. ;)
The stories we hear .. that wouldn't be too far out of the spectrum.
Non-starter. There's a two year limit on time, and it is rigidly enforced. We had someone get "black holed" when I first came to the wing, and the resubmission got kicked back.
Quote from: capsafety on November 29, 2013, 07:45:28 PMFakers as in people not authorized to wear, I am guessing?
Yes, and lumping in the "tire changers". Too bad, the fakes outnumber the recipients it seems.
^Didn't that particular SMoV get recalled?
What kind of event would warrant the S/BMV? It would seem like with the average CAP mission that there wouldn't be nearly so many out there.
They seem to rarely be associated with a CAP mission or with something that someone has done on CAP duty.
Some sort of statistical analysis of the reasons for issuance of these would be a good topic for the new CAP Historical Journal.
Quote from: BHartman007 on November 29, 2013, 10:10:48 PMWhat kind of event would warrant the S/BMV?
An act that would likely violate several other standing orders, regulations or whatever. ;)
It's not the think you kind of exactly plan for, more like plan to be ready for. But not want to have actually happen.
Wow. I just searched for SMV recipients, and found a knowledgebase article mentioning one being awarded to a member of my squadron a couple of years ago for pulling someone out of a burning vehicle.
Quote from: BHartman007 on November 29, 2013, 10:28:02 PM
Wow. I just searched for SMV recipients, and found a knowledgebase article mentioning one being awarded to a member of my squadron a couple of years ago for pulling someone out of a burning vehicle.
Of course, I just looked him up in eservices and the award isn't listed.
Quote from: BHartman007 on November 29, 2013, 10:30:48 PM
Quote from: BHartman007 on November 29, 2013, 10:28:02 PM
Wow. I just searched for SMV recipients, and found a knowledgebase article mentioning one being awarded to a member of my squadron a couple of years ago for pulling someone out of a burning vehicle.
Of course, I just looked him up in eservices and the award isn't listed.
Decorations are not currently tracked in eServices, except for cadet milestone awards and the Gill Robb Wilson (Level V) PD award.
Quote from: BHartman007 on November 29, 2013, 10:30:48 PM
Quote from: BHartman007 on November 29, 2013, 10:28:02 PM
Wow. I just searched for SMV recipients, and found a knowledgebase article mentioning one being awarded to a member of my squadron a couple of years ago for pulling someone out of a burning vehicle.
Of course, I just looked him up in eservices and the award isn't listed.
SMV, BMV, and DSA's are tracked by NHQ. They have a file of them. They have yet to put them online. The group is trying to collect and verify recipients. This will eventually make it to a website. There is another thread that has an excel spreadsheet with some of the confirmed recipients.
Quote from: capsafety on November 29, 2013, 03:20:11 PM
I will be shutting down the FB page for the MOVA and creating a Group. This will enable me the time to work on it, without having to jump between several different accounts.
Look for CAP Medal of Valor Association. It is for SMV, BMV, and Lifesaving Medal recipients.
I didn't realize that the Lifesaving Medal qualified for membership into this group. I will pass this information along.
Quote from: GroundHawg on December 01, 2013, 02:18:43 AMI didn't realize that the Lifesaving Medal qualified for membership into this group. I will pass this information along.
You are correct. The original criteria for inclusion did not include the Certificate of Recognition for Lifesaving. This was recently discussed and changed.
1) We felt the criteria for the Certificate of Recognition for Lifesaving was enough to warrant inclusion because of the end result. Someone is still alive due to that members actions. We do not distinguish between the two types of Lifesaving because the end result is the same as well.
I fear the Valor Medals (both Bronze and Silver) have become such a scarcity that members deserving of them aren't even put in for it, but awarded a lower-level (lifesaving) award instead.
For example, I am personally aware of an incident that happened last year in which 2 uniformed CAP members during an official CAP event observed and intervened in an incident in which the victim would have likely died without action. The incident involved extremely dangerous environmental conditions, such as a commercial vehicle still on and in gear, structural damage to a hangar, an aircraft inside damaged and actively leaking fuel... Yet these members, knowing the danger, entered, busted out windows, and extracted the driver to safety.
The city where it happened held a ceremony to honor them for their heroism, yet all they got from CAP was a lifesaving award. They were not even put in for a Medal of Valor. In my opinion, their actions met the criteria for at least a Bronze, and likely a Silver Medal of Valor. But no attempt was made- they "settled" for a lifesaving award.
Quote from: Woodsy on December 01, 2013, 08:24:11 PM
I fear the Valor Medals (both Bronze and Silver) have become such a scarcity that members deserving of them aren't even put in for it, but awarded a lower-level (lifesaving) award instead.
For example, I am personally aware of an incident that happened last year in which 2 uniformed CAP members during an official CAP event observed and intervened in an incident in which the victim would have likely died without action. The incident involved extremely dangerous environmental conditions, such as a commercial vehicle still on and in gear, structural damage to a hangar, an aircraft inside damaged and actively leaking fuel... Yet these members, knowing the danger, entered, busted out windows, and extracted the driver to safety.
The city where it happened held a ceremony to honor them for their heroism, yet all they got from CAP was a lifesaving award. They were not even put in for a Medal of Valor. In my opinion, their actions met the criteria for at least a Bronze, and likely a Silver Medal of Valor. But no attempt was made- they "settled" for a lifesaving award.
They "settled"? Being in law enforcement for a career I saw lots of different acts of heroism. So you understand a whole range of dynamics involved. Most uninformed people see a once in a lifetime event and they think they should be recognized by the POTUS. ::)
Quote from: BHartman007 on November 29, 2013, 10:28:02 PM
Wow. I just searched for SMV recipients, and found a knowledgebase article mentioning one being awarded to a member of my squadron a couple of years ago for pulling someone out of a burning vehicle.
Good example. Of course that could be also be a BMV, Lifesaving or even a ComCom. It depends on a lot of various dynamics.
Why do you not know a member of your own SQ got a SMV ::)
Quote from: Private Investigator on December 02, 2013, 12:20:25 AM
They "settled"? Being in law enforcement for a career I saw lots of different acts of heroism. So you understand a whole range of dynamics involved. Most uninformed people see a once in a lifetime event and they think they should be recognized by the POTUS.
That begs the question of "heroism".
Is it "heroic" for someone who is highly trained and financially compensated, not to mention properly equipped, to run into a
burning building? I don't know, it has risk, sure, but those risks are mitigated by training, equipment, and experience.
The same can not be said for the average Joe Citizen who runs into a building to knock doors, pull people out, etc.
Quote from: Flying Pig on November 29, 2013, 08:29:41 PM
I don't want to derail the thread or beat a dead animal..... but
Yeah, I got put in for one and never heard about it, never asked. I later found it in a desk drawer loooooong after the SqCC had moved on. I found the 2a about 5 years or so after the incident. I think there is a 2yr window from the date of the incident. The actual incident was probably 13-14years ago now.
5/22/1994. I was told that being a policeman you can not get a CAP SMV or BMV since it could be considered 'day job' related, even if you was off duty from your cop job. The exceptional is if the act occurred 'during' a CAP activity. 8)
To slightly derail things even more, I believe that no CAP award should be given for actions that weren't performed while on CAP duty.
During my time in the Army, two GIs were off duty in down in Mililani at the Jack in the Box. They caught a guy trying to rob the place and held him till HPD showed up. Both received ARCOMs.
Unfortunately, the award of medals was and is about politics and the desire of higher HQs to give credit for something that someone low on the totem pole did. Read the full story sometime about how Col Robert Howard was recommended not once but three times for the MOH and why he didn't get it the first two.
Quote from: Private Investigator on December 02, 2013, 12:24:14 AM
Quote from: BHartman007 on November 29, 2013, 10:28:02 PM
Wow. I just searched for SMV recipients, and found a knowledgebase article mentioning one being awarded to a member of my squadron a couple of years ago for pulling someone out of a burning vehicle.
Good example. Of course that could be also be a BMV, Lifesaving or even a ComCom. It depends on a lot of various dynamics.
Why do you not know a member of your own SQ got a SMV ::)
Because it happened several years before I joined, and this guy is no longer active, though he keeps paying his dues every year. I've been there almost a year and I've never seen him.
Quote from: BHartman007 on December 02, 2013, 01:35:04 AM
Quote from: Private Investigator on December 02, 2013, 12:24:14 AM
Quote from: BHartman007 on November 29, 2013, 10:28:02 PM
Wow. I just searched for SMV recipients, and found a knowledgebase article mentioning one being awarded to a member of my squadron a couple of years ago for pulling someone out of a burning vehicle.
Good example. Of course that could be also be a BMV, Lifesaving or even a ComCom. It depends on a lot of various dynamics.
Why do you not know a member of your own SQ got a SMV ::)
Because it happened several years before I joined, and this guy is no longer active, though he keeps paying his dues every year. I've been there almost a year and I've never seen him.
Maybe its from my military background. But every unit I have been in I try to learn about its history and people. One day you could be the Squadron Commander. 8)
Quote from: RiverAux on December 02, 2013, 12:47:59 AM
To slightly derail things even more, I believe that no CAP award should be given for actions that weren't performed while on CAP duty.
I would have to disagree because that statement is not clear enough. I would say, yes and no. Too many possible scenarios, i.e. 10 minutes after a CAP meeting is over; Still on duty or off? I am driving to "Kwik Mart" and I start getting pings on 121.5 because I listen 24/7 and two minutes later I am at a apartment complex that just got hit by a small plane. On duty or off duty. Of course YMMV 8)
Quote from: Private Investigator on December 02, 2013, 12:33:56 AM
Quote from: Flying Pig on November 29, 2013, 08:29:41 PM
I don't want to derail the thread or beat a dead animal..... but
Yeah, I got put in for one and never heard about it, never asked. I later found it in a desk drawer loooooong after the SqCC had moved on. I found the 2a about 5 years or so after the incident. I think there is a 2yr window from the date of the incident. The actual incident was probably 13-14years ago now.
5/22/1994. I was told that being a policeman you can not get a CAP SMV or BMV since it could be considered 'day job' related, even if you was off duty from your cop job. The exceptional is if the act occurred 'during' a CAP activity. 8)
Sounds like somebody's uninformed and erroneous misguided personal opinion, as opposed to policy.
Off-duty cop jumping into a freezing river to rescue a kid is no better prepared or equipped than an off-duty pastry chef doing the same thing.
Quote from: RiverAux on December 02, 2013, 12:47:59 AM
To slightly derail things even more, I believe that no CAP award should be given for actions that weren't performed while on CAP duty.
That's a higher standard than that applied to the Soldier's Medal, Navy and Marine Corps Medal, Coast Guard Medal or Airman's Medal (which are probably the closest military decorations to the MOV). For example: http://www.defense.gov/News/NewsArticle.aspx?ID=66322 (http://www.defense.gov/News/NewsArticle.aspx?ID=66322)
Limiting the awards to "while on CAP duty" is simply trying to avoid recognizing people and discredits their (hopefully) CAP assisted public service instincts and training. To what end?
Quote from: Private Investigator on December 02, 2013, 01:43:15 AM
Quote from: BHartman007 on December 02, 2013, 01:35:04 AM
Quote from: Private Investigator on December 02, 2013, 12:24:14 AM
Quote from: BHartman007 on November 29, 2013, 10:28:02 PM
Wow. I just searched for SMV recipients, and found a knowledgebase article mentioning one being awarded to a member of my squadron a couple of years ago for pulling someone out of a burning vehicle.
Good example. Of course that could be also be a BMV, Lifesaving or even a ComCom. It depends on a lot of various dynamics.
Why do you not know a member of your own SQ got a SMV ::)
Because it happened several years before I joined, and this guy is no longer active, though he keeps paying his dues every year. I've been there almost a year and I've never seen him.
Maybe its from my military background. But every unit I have been in I try to learn about its history and people. One day you could be the Squadron Commander. 8)
Forgive me for not combing the personnel files and memorizing the histories of all the people who quit showing up long before I got there. They didn't hand me a "master book of everything you could ever want to know about any member, current or past" when I joined. >:(
Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on December 02, 2013, 02:17:47 AM
Limiting the awards to "while on CAP duty" is simply trying to avoid recognizing people and discredits their (hopefully) CAP assisted public service instincts and training.
No, it doesn't discredit them at all. I believe that CAP awards should go for CAP service. Period. Frankly, when I see CAP giving an award for something done while not on CAP time it makes me think that CAP is trying to take credit for something that it had nothing to do with.
Now if my standard were the CAP standard (which I fully recognize isn't the case) if a CAP squadron commander has a member that does something great "off duty", by all means they should see what awards might be available to them as "civilians", for example from the city or state or Red Cross. Then, if they receive that award I'm fine with CAP making a big deal of it.
QuoteI would have to disagree because that statement is not clear enough. I would say, yes and no. Too many possible scenarios, i.e. 10 minutes after a CAP meeting is over; Still on duty or off? I am driving to "Kwik Mart" and I start getting pings on 121.5 because I listen 24/7 and two minutes later I am at a apartment complex that just got hit by a small plane. On duty or off duty. Of course YMMV
Yeah, there could be some situations where it would be murky, but I would say that if you'd be considered on duty if you broke your arm while doing the action and the feds would pay for your medical bills, then you would be eligible for a CAP award for that action. Some judgement calls would have to be made.
But, lets be clear -- almost all MOV and Lifesaving Awards earned by CAP members in recent years (at least those that have gained reasonable publicity within CAP) are for actions that are clearly and without a doubt performed while not on CAP duty. There usually isn't any real doubt about that.
I realize that I'm in a minority on this one as the trend within CAP and the military is to give out such awards for off-duty actions, but that doesn't make it right in my book.
I think the recognition for a well done deed whether done as part of one's Civil Air Patrol duty or not it speaks to our core values to recognize them.
I've seen Cops and Firefighter's all receive departmental awards done for acts done off duty. I don't see the issue.
Quote from: SARDOC on December 02, 2013, 04:06:21 AMI think the recognition for a well done deed whether done as part of one's Civil Air Patrol duty or not it speaks to our core values to recognize them.
:) :) Absolutely in agreement.
Quote from: Woodsy on December 01, 2013, 08:24:11 PM
I fear the Valor Medals (both Bronze and Silver) have become such a scarcity that members deserving of them aren't even put in for it, but awarded a lower-level (lifesaving) award instead.
For example, I am personally aware of an incident that happened last year in which 2 uniformed CAP members during an official CAP event observed and intervened in an incident in which the victim would have likely died without action. The incident involved extremely dangerous environmental conditions, such as a commercial vehicle still on and in gear, structural damage to a hangar, an aircraft inside damaged and actively leaking fuel... Yet these members, knowing the danger, entered, busted out windows, and extracted the driver to safety.
The city where it happened held a ceremony to honor them for their heroism, yet all they got from CAP was a lifesaving award. They were not even put in for a Medal of Valor. In my opinion, their actions met the criteria for at least a Bronze, and likely a Silver Medal of Valor. But no attempt was made- they "settled" for a lifesaving award.
If you know of it, why don't you recommend them for the appropriate Medal of Valor? It only takes a few minutes and anyone with knowledge of the act can do it. Speak to your Wing DP about upgrading the award because of the danger element, which may not have been stressed in the original F120.
If they've already received the Lifesaving Award they aren't eligible for any further CAP awards for that action. Only 1 award per incident even if the first award was not the most appropriate.
Also, did anyone consider (understanding that not all situations are like this) that the cause for the action meriting an SMV might exist because CAP officers and members didn't use proper ORM and safety standards?
8) Devil's advocate, right here. :-X
Quote from: RiverAux on December 02, 2013, 04:37:56 AM
If they've already received the Lifesaving Award they aren't eligible for any further CAP awards for that action. Only 1 award per incident even if the first award was not the most appropriate.
The Lifesaving Award can be rescinded and upgraded to a MofV. Just like the military can upgrade an award based on new information.
Quote from: The Infamous Meerkat on December 02, 2013, 06:09:46 AM
Also, did anyone consider (understanding that not all situations are like this) that the cause for the action meriting an SMV might exist because CAP officers and members didn't use proper ORM and safety standards?
8) Devil's advocate, right here. :-X
Perhaps the person or persons awarded those medals understood fully the risk, used proper ORM and safety standards, and then tossed them the :-X out the window because all the paper in the world won't save lives when action is required.
I think the SMoV and BMoV are for instances where the end justifies the means. But what about when CPPT comes into play. Interesting thought though when a Senior AND a cadet earn them together. The cadet should get the medal and the Senior should get a reprimand >:D (kidding)
Quote from: MSG Mac on December 02, 2013, 07:12:56 AM
Quote from: RiverAux on December 02, 2013, 04:37:56 AM
If they've already received the Lifesaving Award they aren't eligible for any further CAP awards for that action. Only 1 award per incident even if the first award was not the most appropriate.
The Lifesaving Award can be rescinded and upgraded to a MofV. Just like the military can upgrade an award based on new information.
Cite please (for CAP).
While I don't expect atta boys for doing the right thing, I can say how NHQ has awarded decorations does make me scratch my head.
A mission pilot on a organ transport dog-legged around a thunderstorm got a BMOV back in the early 80's.
A cadet a few years back saw that his neighbor's house was on fire and helped get all 4 occupants out to safety. He was put in for a SMOV with written endorsements from several public safety agencies on-scene and NHQ awarded a single Lifesaving Award.
Quote from: Johnny Yuma on December 02, 2013, 02:37:20 PM
A cadet a few years back saw that his neighbor's house was on fire and helped get all 4 occupants out to safety. He was put in for a SMOV with written endorsements from several public safety agencies on-scene and NHQ awarded a single Lifesaving Award.
If it's the incident discussed here, an LA was likely appropriate.
Quote from: Eclipse on December 02, 2013, 03:00:54 PM
Quote from: Johnny Yuma on December 02, 2013, 02:37:20 PM
A cadet a few years back saw that his neighbor's house was on fire and helped get all 4 occupants out to safety. He was put in for a SMOV with written endorsements from several public safety agencies on-scene and NHQ awarded a single Lifesaving Award.
If it's the incident discussed here, an LA was likely appropriate.
I concur.
Burning house is a good example. My first I had to kick in the door and crawl thru to search for a couple and a young infant. The next time it was the roof burning and knocked on the door and told them, "you got a problem and should evacuate!" Both SMV worthy? Well not exactly. 8)
Quote from: MSG Mac on December 02, 2013, 04:18:06 AM
Quote from: Woodsy on December 01, 2013, 08:24:11 PM
I fear the Valor Medals (both Bronze and Silver) have become such a scarcity that members deserving of them aren't even put in for it, but awarded a lower-level (lifesaving) award instead.
For example, I am personally aware of an incident that happened last year in which 2 uniformed CAP members during an official CAP event observed and intervened in an incident in which the victim would have likely died without action. The incident involved extremely dangerous environmental conditions, such as a commercial vehicle still on and in gear, structural damage to a hangar, an aircraft inside damaged and actively leaking fuel... Yet these members, knowing the danger, entered, busted out windows, and extracted the driver to safety.
The city where it happened held a ceremony to honor them for their heroism, yet all they got from CAP was a lifesaving award. They were not even put in for a Medal of Valor. In my opinion, their actions met the criteria for at least a Bronze, and likely a Silver Medal of Valor. But no attempt was made- they "settled" for a lifesaving award.
If you know of it, why don't you recommend them for the appropriate Medal of Valor? It only takes a few minutes and anyone with knowledge of the act can do it. Speak to your Wing DP about upgrading the award because of the danger element, which may not have been stressed in the original F120.
I tried. The original F120 read well enough. In fact, the reason I thought it deserved a MV's was because of comparing it to several citations for awarded MV's.
I'll just leave this right here. Announcement made Dec 6th.
Good afternoon!
I am pleased to announce that I have just been notified by NHQ that Capt Ronald Reid of the Shelbyville Composite Squadron, GLR-IN-184, has been awarded the Bronze Medal of Valor for rescuing a man from a rapidly advancing brush fire on 10 November 2010. His actions that day truly reflect the Air Force Core Value of "Service Before Self", and I am honored to have him as a member of our team.
Once details for the presentation have become final, I will forward them to the wing. Until then, please join me in congratulating Capt Reid on this award.
s/v
Matthew R. Creed, Colonel, CAP
Commander
Indiana Wing, Civil Air Patrol
Quote from: Dracosbane on December 13, 2013, 06:55:38 PM
I'll just leave this right here. Announcement made Dec 6th.
:clap:
Quote from: Dracosbane on December 13, 2013, 06:55:38 PM
I'll just leave this right here. Announcement made Dec 6th.
Good afternoon!
I am pleased to announce that I have just been notified by NHQ that Capt Ronald Reid of the Shelbyville Composite Squadron, GLR-IN-184, has been awarded the Bronze Medal of Valor for rescuing a man from a rapidly advancing brush fire on 10 November 2010. His actions that day truly reflect the Air Force Core Value of "Service Before Self", and I am honored to have him as a member of our team.
Once details for the presentation have become final, I will forward them to the wing. Until then, please join me in congratulating Capt Reid on this award.
s/v
Matthew R. Creed, Colonel, CAP
Commander
Indiana Wing, Civil Air Patrol
Thank you Colonel Creed for sharing this with us. Congratulations Capt Reid on being recognized for your actions.
Capt Ron Reid being presented the Civil Air Patrol Bronze Medal of Valor by : General Richard Myers, USAF (Ret.)
Quote from: BHartman007 on November 29, 2013, 10:30:48 PM
Quote from: BHartman007 on November 29, 2013, 10:28:02 PM
Wow. I just searched for SMV recipients, and found a knowledgebase article mentioning one being awarded to a member of my squadron a couple of years ago for pulling someone out of a burning vehicle.
Of course, I just looked him up in eservices and the award isn't listed.
The SMV and BMV and not listed in eservices.
Quote from: Dracosbane on December 02, 2013, 08:01:28 AM
Quote from: The Infamous Meerkat on December 02, 2013, 06:09:46 AM
Also, did anyone consider (understanding that not all situations are like this) that the cause for the action meriting an SMV might exist because CAP officers and members didn't use proper ORM and safety standards?
8) Devil's advocate, right here. :-X
Perhaps the person or persons awarded those medals understood fully the risk, used proper ORM and safety standards, and then tossed them the :-X out the window because all the paper in the world won't save lives when action is required.
Need to update the ribbon rack now Capt Reid ;D
That's in the works. :D
Edit: Ahem.
Congratulations, Captain Reid!
Quote from: Dracosbane on December 13, 2013, 06:55:38 PM
I'll just leave this right here. Announcement made Dec 6th.
Good afternoon!
I am pleased to announce that I have just been notified by NHQ that Capt Ronald Reid of the Shelbyville Composite Squadron, GLR-IN-184, has been awarded the Bronze Medal of Valor for rescuing a man from a rapidly advancing brush fire on 10 November 2010. His actions that day truly reflect the Air Force Core Value of "Service Before Self", and I am honored to have him as a member of our team.
Once details for the presentation have become final, I will forward them to the wing. Until then, please join me in congratulating Capt Reid on this award.
s/v
Matthew R. Creed, Colonel, CAP
Commander
Indiana Wing, Civil Air Patrol
I misread due to new trifocals. Reid = Creed I thought you gave yourself a BMV.
Anywho, congratulations on a job well done :clap:
No, I'm not following in HWSRN's footsteps.
>:D
The Facebook Page is now up to 18 recipients.
If you are a recipient of the
SMV
BMV
Lifesave w/Star
Go to FB and search for Medal of Valor Association.
Quote from: SarDragon on November 29, 2013, 08:36:10 PM
Quote from: a2capt on November 29, 2013, 07:21:06 PM
6 years, signed and dated back then? I'd send it up anyway. ;)
The stories we hear .. that wouldn't be too far out of the spectrum.
Non-starter. There's a two year limit on time, and it is rigidly enforced. We had someone get "black holed" when I first came to the wing, and the resubmission got kicked back.
Yeah I have noticed that the 2-year time limit seems to be rigidly enforced. About the only thing in CAP huh? I have a lifesaving medal I should have been awarded in 1990. The paperwork was submitted to FLWG, and a story commemorating the whole thing was posted in the FLWG newsletter which can still be accessed today but nothing ever came of it. Sad. Not that I don't get to wear another ribbon, but that a person's valor is only good for two years. Good thing AD military doesn't view it that way. A valorous act should be recognized regardless of when the act occurred.
AFI36-2803, 18 DECEMBER 2013, Chapter 1, para 1.15, page 19
1.15. General Considerations before Submitting a Decoration Recommendation: In accordance with Title 10 U.S.C. Section 6249, "No medal, cross, or bar, or associated emblem or insignia may be awarded or presented to any USAF member or their representative, if the member's entire service subsequent to the time of the distinguished act, achievement, or service has not been honorable." Section 8744 of title 10 U.S.C. also stipulate that the Medal of Honor (MOH), the AFC, and the DSM can only be considered and approved for members whose character of service is exemplary and this requirement will not be waived. Supervisors and commanders, at all levels, are responsible to ensure that only deserving personnel are submitted for decorations. Submit recommendations as soon as possible following the act, achievement, or service. Enter each recommendation (except the PH) into official channels within 2 years and award within 3 years of the act, achievement, or service performed. This will be strictly enforced.
(PH) - Purple Heart
Emphasis added; not shown bold in Instruction.
Provided for information to validate the Air Force does have a written timeframe it follows.
Except it is not strictly enforced.......lots and lots and lots of examples where medals were awarded decades after the event.
:)
Quote from: lordmonar on June 15, 2014, 11:18:00 PM
Except it is not strictly enforced.......lots and lots and lots of examples where medals were awarded decades after the event.
In the last 6 months? Assuming that similar language wasn't in previous versions.
Quote from: RiverAux on June 15, 2014, 11:20:53 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on June 15, 2014, 11:18:00 PM
Except it is not strictly enforced.......lots and lots and lots of examples where medals were awarded decades after the event.
In the last 6 months? Assuming that similar language wasn't in previous versions.
Quotehttp://www.armytimes.com/article/20140529/NEWS/305290054/WWII-veteran-gets-medals-70-years-later
It is the Army....but there you go.
IIRC that language has been in the AFI and the AFR for years and years.
My point is that there are always exceptions to the rules.
jim,
could u pls send me an email?
starshippe at comcast dot net.
thanks,
bill
Quote from: NorCal21 on June 15, 2014, 05:28:04 AM
Quote from: SarDragon on November 29, 2013, 08:36:10 PM
Quote from: a2capt on November 29, 2013, 07:21:06 PM
6 years, signed and dated back then? I'd send it up anyway. ;)
The stories we hear .. that wouldn't be too far out of the spectrum.
Non-starter. There's a two year limit on time, and it is rigidly enforced. We had someone get "black holed" when I first came to the wing, and the resubmission got kicked back.
Yeah I have noticed that the 2-year time limit seems to be rigidly enforced. About the only thing in CAP huh? I have a lifesaving medal I should have been awarded in 1990. The paperwork was submitted to FLWG, and a story commemorating the whole thing was posted in the FLWG newsletter which can still be accessed today but nothing ever came of it. Sad. Not that I don't get to wear another ribbon, but that a person's valor is only good for two years. Good thing AD military doesn't view it that way. A valorous act should be recognized regardless of when the act occurred.
Happened to me. CAP Forms filled out, paperwork done, news articles, witness statements... put in an envelope and a stamp put on it. I never heard anything back. A few years later I found the envelope in a desk drawer during a squadron clean up day. I contacted NHQ and was told "Sorry...... you only have 2 yrs from the date of the incident." I attempted to explain the chain of events and was basically talked to like I was a kid begging for candy at a store and sent on my way.
Not CAP Related but....
Awards get DownGraded and Upgraded in the Military all the time. As a matter of fact, certain awards depends on what rank and or MOS you have in the service. I was awarded an AD award for Valor, it was submitted and demoted twice to the awards I have now before I finally got the Valor award almost 2 years after.
Thats definitely true. My grandfather was nominated for the Distinguished Service Cross for actions in WWII. He ended up with 2 separate Bronze Stars that were awarded in the late 60s. If I recall I don't think he got his PH until several years after for having his pinky finger shot off and some shrapnel wounds. So after the war he gets out a PFC after serving from 1939-1945 (yeah, over achiever :clap:) and 20+yrs later he ends up with 2 BSMs with "V"s and 2 Purple Hearts. Im told he had an issue with authority figures during the war :)
Yep, Mine went from a Bronze Star with V, to a Navy and Marine Corps Commendation Medal with V, to a Navy/Marine Corps Achievment Medal with V. I really dont care which one, just eerks me the reasons that were given.
Well it doesn't surprise me that the Chair Force has a 2 year limit. The Marines may have as well but I've not once seen it adhered to that I can remember. Valor knows no time limit, and sometimes it takes more than two years to verify. The Marines have the least amount of valor awards since 9/11 for troops engaged in theater. I think part of it is that we're much more strict as to what we consider rises to the level of valor for awards, but we are definitely much more strict with investigations to determine if statements concerning valor are accurate before an honor is bestowed. In fact, many are commenting negatively about how few awards have been handed out to Marines.
Quote from: NorCal21 on June 17, 2014, 03:23:55 AM
Well it doesn't surprise me that the Chair Force has a 2 year limit. The Marines may have as well but I've not once seen it adhered to that I can remember. Valor knows no time limit, and sometimes it takes more than two years to verify. The Marines have the least amount of valor awards since 9/11 for troops engaged in theater. I think part of it is that we're much more strict as to what we consider rises to the level of valor for awards, but we are definitely much more strict with investigations to determine if statements concerning valor are accurate before an honor is bestowed. In fact, many are commenting negatively about how few awards have been handed out to Marines.
The Navy (and therefore the Marines) have a 3 year limit except under special limited circumstances as indicated in http://www.marines.mil/Portals/59/Publications/SecNavInst%201650.1H.pdf (http://www.marines.mil/Portals/59/Publications/SecNavInst%201650.1H.pdf) (2-1 c)
The Air Force has a 2 year time limit as indicated in http://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/acc/publication/afi36-2803_accsup_i/afi36-2803_accsup_i.pdf (http://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/acc/publication/afi36-2803_accsup_i/afi36-2803_accsup_i.pdf) (3.1)
The Army also has a 2 year time limit as indicated in http://www.apd.army.mil/pdffiles/r600_8_22.pdf (http://www.apd.army.mil/pdffiles/r600_8_22.pdf) (1-14)
Quote from: NorCal21 on June 17, 2014, 03:23:55 AM
Well it doesn't surprise me that the Chair Force has a 2 year limit. The Marines may have as well but I've not once seen it adhered to that I can remember. Valor knows no time limit, and sometimes it takes more than two years to verify. The Marines have the least amount of valor awards since 9/11 for troops engaged in theater. I think part of it is that we're much more strict as to what we consider rises to the level of valor for awards, but we are definitely much more strict with investigations to determine if statements concerning valor are accurate before an honor is bestowed. In fact, many are commenting negatively about how few awards have been handed out to Marines.
You aint lying, Ive seen some brave stuff by Marines, and they get a pat on the back. No offense to the ARMY, but some of the rewards they give out, are rediculous. I have had numerous people read my award and state if i was ARMY it would have been atleast a Bronze Star.... but I digress. I didnt join for the awards and medals, it is just nice to get them. I have seen many many times where something was above and beyond, and it was like you were doing you job, and no recognition.
Quote from: Devil Doc on June 17, 2014, 11:39:27 AM
Quote from: NorCal21 on June 17, 2014, 03:23:55 AM
Well it doesn't surprise me that the Chair Force has a 2 year limit. The Marines may have as well but I've not once seen it adhered to that I can remember. Valor knows no time limit, and sometimes it takes more than two years to verify. The Marines have the least amount of valor awards since 9/11 for troops engaged in theater. I think part of it is that we're much more strict as to what we consider rises to the level of valor for awards, but we are definitely much more strict with investigations to determine if statements concerning valor are accurate before an honor is bestowed. In fact, many are commenting negatively about how few awards have been handed out to Marines.
You aint lying, Ive seen some brave stuff by Marines, and they get a pat on the back. No offense to the ARMY, but some of the rewards they give out, are rediculous. I have had numerous people read my award and state if i was ARMY it would have been atleast a Bronze Star.... but I digress. I didnt join for the awards and medals, it is just nice to get them. I have seen many many times where something was above and beyond, and it was like you were doing you job, and no recognition.
Read Richard Marcinko's autobiography. Very interesting take on awards during Viet Nam from a Navy SEAL POV. 8)
Quote from: lordmonar on June 15, 2014, 11:32:35 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on June 15, 2014, 11:20:53 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on June 15, 2014, 11:18:00 PM
Except it is not strictly enforced.......lots and lots and lots of examples where medals were awarded decades after the event.
In the last 6 months? Assuming that similar language wasn't in previous versions.
Quotehttp://www.armytimes.com/article/20140529/NEWS/305290054/WWII-veteran-gets-medals-70-years-later
It is the Army....but there you go.
IIRC that language has been in the AFI and the AFR for years and years.
My point is that there are always exceptions to the rules.
Spot on 8)
One of the big issue with awards in the military, especially the Army is for promotion points. So it can be a pretty big deal if you get boned out of a medal you earned and/or deserve. When I was in the Army Reserves, I was infantry... busted my rump like everyone else... did extra days. When we went to the field to train other support units we would often times do days with little sleep.... you guys know the deal, Im not saying anything any vets here haven't done. But we had this soldier who was in HQ company who I SWEAR every 6 months would get an Army Comm or an Army Achievement for accomplishing some sort of admin task.
Whats the difference? She had a commander that was very pro-medal. Our OPFOR Plt commander was a former Special Forces and believed that you don't get medals for "doing your job". Well thats all fine and dandy when you are a MSgt with 25+ years. But since my promotions could be made or broken on having or not having a medal...... it got pretty tense every time this other soldier trotted back up during formation to get another medal pinned on. At one point several people let out a collective "sigh" during one pinning. Good times :)
Quote from: Flying Pig on June 18, 2014, 02:27:23 PM
One of the big issue with awards in the military, especially the Army is for promotion points. So it can be a pretty big deal if you get boned out of a medal you earned and/or deserve. When I was in the Army Reserves, I was infantry... busted my rump like everyone else... did extra days. When we went to the field to train other support units we would often times do days with little sleep.... you guys know the deal, Im not saying anything any vets here haven't done. But we had this soldier who was in HQ company who I SWEAR every 6 months would get an Army Comm or an Army Achievement for accomplishing some sort of admin task.
Whats the difference? She had a commander that was very pro-medal. Our OPFOR Plt commander was a former Special Forces and believed that you don't get medals for "doing your job". Well thats all fine and dandy when you are a MSgt with 25+ years. But since my promotions could be made or broken on having or not having a medal...... it got pretty tense every time this other soldier trotted back up during formation to get another medal pinned on. At one point several people let out a collective "sigh" during one pinning. Good times :)
I once read an anecdote about officers in Vietnam in the rear areas getting Bronze stars for admin work, and also for being in theater for 6 months or so. Could be apocryphal.
The Army in Vietnam would print out a list that listed all soldiers in a unit that had 6 months in country, unless removed from the list you received an ARCOM, At eight months the Bronze Star. Officer would generally spend 6 months with a field unit and the remaining 6 months with a headquarters unit. Enlisted of course stayed in the field for their entire tour. Now the awards system is unofficially skewed so that the award made is based on grade. E-1-E-4 AAM, E-5-E-6 ARCOM, E-7-E-8 MSM/BSM, E-9 Legion of Merit
The Bronze Star can be awarded for admin work. Its totally legit. Keep in mind, the Bronze Star is awarded in place of the Meritorious Service Medal when in a combat zone. So the BSM with a "V" is a completely different medal than a BSM without the "V". Similar to an Army Commendation with a "V" or Navy Achievement with a "V". Thats why the Silver Star, Navy Cross, Air Force Cross and Distinguished Service Cross do not have provisions for a "V" device because they can ONLY be awarded for combat actions. The Distinguished Flying Cross also has a "V" device because you can earn it when not in combat. The Air Medal again, is similar. It has a provision for a "V"
Ive seen a couple guest speakers here and there who are advertised as "Bronze Star Medal Winner Joe Blow to speak" I never served in combat.... I don't have one.... so Im not going to be the jerk who feels the need to point out to people that the guy they are drooling over thinking he's a war hero actually doesn't have the medal they think he does. Doesn't really matter. Nor have I ever heard a BSM recipient claim they have something they don't.
I made a comment on FB about an article on a female soldier getting a getting the BSM. All the posts were "What a true hero" "Who says women cant serve in combat" "GI Jane" etc etc. I probably should have kept my thoughts to myself, but I pointed out the difference in the two medals and and that hers was not for combat valor. I got beat down as a woman hater. :) But Ive never seen anyone trip over themselves when they see someone walk by with a Meritorious Service Medal. It is what it is.
Quote from: Garibaldi on June 18, 2014, 03:35:11 PM
Quote from: Flying Pig on June 18, 2014, 02:27:23 PM
One of the big issue with awards in the military, especially the Army is for promotion points. So it can be a pretty big deal if you get boned out of a medal you earned and/or deserve. When I was in the Army Reserves, I was infantry... busted my rump like everyone else... did extra days. When we went to the field to train other support units we would often times do days with little sleep.... you guys know the deal, Im not saying anything any vets here haven't done. But we had this soldier who was in HQ company who I SWEAR every 6 months would get an Army Comm or an Army Achievement for accomplishing some sort of admin task.
Whats the difference? She had a commander that was very pro-medal. Our OPFOR Plt commander was a former Special Forces and believed that you don't get medals for "doing your job". Well thats all fine and dandy when you are a MSgt with 25+ years. But since my promotions could be made or broken on having or not having a medal...... it got pretty tense every time this other soldier trotted back up during formation to get another medal pinned on. At one point several people let out a collective "sigh" during one pinning. Good times :)
I once read an anecdote about officers in Vietnam in the rear areas getting Bronze stars for admin work, and also for being in theater for 6 months or so. Could be apocryphal.
Speaking of apocryphal:
I had a JROTC Instructor (retired SFC) tell me that he "was only three guys away from getting a Bronze Star in Korea." He had driven an Army officer to meet with Marine officers and was waiting by the jeep. A helicopter landed and a crowd of Marines went over. He went, too, figuring somebody might be delivering food, candy bars or cigarettes. Turned out to be a general handing out Bronze Stars. He ran out three guys ahead of my JROTC instructor, got back in and flew out.
Quote from: Alaric on June 17, 2014, 08:36:50 AM
The Navy (and therefore the Marines) have a 3 year limit except under special limited circumstances as indicated in http://www.marines.mil/Portals/59/Publications/SecNavInst%201650.1H.pdf (http://www.marines.mil/Portals/59/Publications/SecNavInst%201650.1H.pdf) (2-1 c)
The Air Force has a 2 year time limit as indicated in http://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/acc/publication/afi36-2803_accsup_i/afi36-2803_accsup_i.pdf (http://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/acc/publication/afi36-2803_accsup_i/afi36-2803_accsup_i.pdf) (3.1)
The Army also has a 2 year time limit as indicated in http://www.apd.army.mil/pdffiles/r600_8_22.pdf (http://www.apd.army.mil/pdffiles/r600_8_22.pdf) (1-14)
And it has been my experience that the Marine Corps routinely ignores its MCO limitations on valor awards. I've, in fact, never seen a valor award in the Marine Corps denied based on those limits.
Quote from: Garibaldi on June 18, 2014, 03:35:11 PM
I once read an anecdote about officers in Vietnam in the rear areas getting Bronze stars for admin work, and also for being in theater for 6 months or so. Could be apocryphal.
Could be but probably not. All one has to do is look at the DoD and the USAF to see that moronic medals are being designed and placed ridiculously high on the chart for doing nothing valorous. UAV handlers getting a valor award? For what? Not getting carpal tunnel while remotely piloting a drone from thousands of miles away in the safety of an air-conditioned room in the US?
Quote from: Flying Pig on June 18, 2014, 03:59:50 PM
The Bronze Star can be awarded for admin work. Its totally legit. Keep in mind, the Bronze Star is awarded in place of the Meritorious Service Medal when in a combat zone. So the BSM with a "V" is a completely different medal than a BSM without the "V". Similar to an Army Commendation with a "V" or Navy Achievement with a "V". Thats why the Silver Star, Navy Cross, Air Force Cross and Distinguished Service Cross do not have provisions for a "V" device because they can ONLY be awarded for combat actions. The Distinguished Flying Cross also has a "V" device because you can earn it when not in combat. The Air Medal again, is similar. It has a provision for a "V"
This comment isn't about you. Its about the possibility that someone can receive a Bronze Star for admin work. Whether there's a "V" or not doesn't change the fact that most people believe that a Bronze Star is for valor. There isn't one thing you can come up with, EVER, that would justify (at least to me) that any type of administrative work is worthy of a Bronze Star. To be honest I think the highest award should be Commendation or Achievement for admin work.
Quote from: NorCal21 on June 22, 2014, 07:53:13 AM
Quote from: Garibaldi on June 18, 2014, 03:35:11 PM
I once read an anecdote about officers in Vietnam in the rear areas getting Bronze stars for admin work, and also for being in theater for 6 months or so. Could be apocryphal.
Could be but probably not. All one has to do is look at the DoD and the USAF to see that moronic medals are being designed and placed ridiculously high on the chart for doing nothing valorous. UAV handlers getting a valor award? For what? Not getting carpal tunnel while remotely piloting a drone from thousands of miles away in the safety of an air-conditioned room in the US?
Point of order. Neither the Bronze Star nor the Distinguished Warfare Medal are valor medals.
The DWM was rated higher then the BSM because it was going to be harder to earn then the BSM.
So don't get bent out of shape.
Quote from: NorCal21 on June 22, 2014, 07:57:47 AM
Quote from: Flying Pig on June 18, 2014, 03:59:50 PM
The Bronze Star can be awarded for admin work. Its totally legit. Keep in mind, the Bronze Star is awarded in place of the Meritorious Service Medal when in a combat zone. So the BSM with a "V" is a completely different medal than a BSM without the "V". Similar to an Army Commendation with a "V" or Navy Achievement with a "V". Thats why the Silver Star, Navy Cross, Air Force Cross and Distinguished Service Cross do not have provisions for a "V" device because they can ONLY be awarded for combat actions. The Distinguished Flying Cross also has a "V" device because you can earn it when not in combat. The Air Medal again, is similar. It has a provision for a "V"
This comment isn't about you. Its about the possibility that someone can receive a Bronze Star for admin work. Whether there's a "V" or not doesn't change the fact that most people believe that a Bronze Star is for valor. There isn't one thing you can come up with, EVER, that would justify (at least to me) that any type of administrative work is worthy of a Bronze Star. To be honest I think the highest award should be Commendation or Achievement for admin work.
And that is the problem. What YOU think the award should be and what it really is are two different things. That is why the DWM got all screwed up. But bottom line....FACT.......the BSM is a combat award....but not a valor award. Lots and lots and lots of people got it for doing their jobs in a combat zone or directly supporting combat......but were not actually "in" combat doing anything heroic.
Quote from: NorCal21 on June 22, 2014, 07:57:47 AM
This comment isn't about you. Its about the possibility that someone can receive a Bronze Star for admin work. Whether there's a "V" or not doesn't change the fact that most people believe that a Bronze Star is for valor. There isn't one thing you can come up with, EVER, that would justify (at least to me) that any type of administrative work is worthy of a Bronze Star. To be honest I think the highest award should be Commendation or Achievement for admin work.
What most people think the Bronze Star is awarded for is irrelevant. What matters is what the regulations say:
Quote from: Bronze Star Medalb. The Bronze Star Medal is awarded to any person who, while serving in any capacity in or with the Army of the
United States after 6 December 1941, distinguished himself or herself by heroic or meritorious achievement or service,
not involving participation in aerial flight, in connection with military operations against an armed enemy; or while
engaged in military operations involving conflict with an opposing armed force in which the United States is not a
belligerent party. Title 10, United States Code, section 1133, (10 USC 1133) limits award of the Bronze Star Medal to
service members receiving imminent danger pay.
c. Awards may be made for acts of heroism, performed under circumstances described above, which are of lesser
degree than required for the award of the Silver Star.
d. The Bronze Star Medal may be awarded for meritorious achievement or meritorious service
Quote from: lordmonar on June 22, 2014, 12:58:40 PM
the BSM is a combat award....but not a valor award
Just as a point of order. The BSM is neither a combat award or a valor award. It is an individual decoration, which may help to clear up this whole valor/non-valor/peace/war/blah blah problem.
Quote1–13. Categories of individual awards
Individual awards are grouped into the following categories: Decorations, Good Conduct Medal, campaign and service
medals, service ribbons, badges and tabs, and certificates and letters.
Also, there are only five reasons for awards:
Achievement
Service
PCS
ETS
Retirement