Help Wanted - Hazing Analysis

[ZigZag911]

I don't see it as hazing.

Some of it was not PC (in part because the film is dated)...the language was pristine pure too, I think, because of the time it was made...compare Jack Webb with R. Lee Ermey in 'Full Metal Jacket'.

I don't see it as appropriate for younger cadets, thus generally not at Basic Encampment or squadron activities...maybe at COS or a region CLS...the problem is, CAP does not have cadet officers or non-coms with the training, experience or maturity of a military DI!

[Eclipse]

We also don't "own" them in a controlled environment, providing for their every basic need 24x7 for 6-8+ weeks to several years.

We get them a couple hours a week, and maybe a week(ish) a year, then they go home to whatever personal, Twilight-fueled, drama
they live in day-to-day.

Some random, mis-fired remark about being a "girl", or "not measuring up", etc., that would garner nothing but a frown (or a laugh) from 99% of adjusted kids, could be the last straw in the decision about a cadet doing something irreversible.

The level of self-induced, Facebook-encouraged, angst kids deal with these days would make Stanley Kowalski's life seem like a paradise.

[RiverAux]

Okay, lets say that I accept Ned's premise that hazing hasn't been defined enough for reasonable senior members (and others) to agree on what is and is not hazing (I do actually).  And lets extend that a bit to behavior that isn't hazing, but may or may not be appropriate for CAP (waking them up banging on trash cans). 

This means that there is a fairly wide band of gray area of actions and behaviors that may or may not be hazing  or inappropriate depending on who is doing the judging about that particular incident. 

Obviously, this is not a great situation to put our folks in.

But, do we really think that much that happens in that gray band is a real problem that can cause real harm to kids or are we really just arguing about technicalities that wouldn't be a big deal in the real world? 

This is not a concept that can really be described in black and white in a stand alone sentence as we're dealing with human pscychology. 

The only way to deal with it is to give our best shot at a definition, but then give a bajillion concrete examples of what we don't want to have happen.  CAP has been doing this for almost 70 years and we know the sort of things that we really don't want to see happen, so lets specifically prohibit them. 

[raivo]

Some random, mis-fired remark about being a "girl", or "not measuring up", etc., that would garner nothing but a frown (or a laugh) from 99% of adjusted kids, could be the last straw in the decision about a cadet doing something irreversible.

This is a very slippery slope.

[BillB]

Since the topiuc has focused mainly on encampments, one thing overlooked is the age of the (politically incorect) Doolies. In the majority of cadets they are the 12 to 14 year olds attending their first encampment. They do not need the strict military environment that an older cadet would accept. (male) Cadets being called girls or ladies as a group would not consider that as demeaning. (but if you specify an individual as "a lady" it would be.
One year in the 60's a Florida Wing encampment put cadets into flights of their peer age groups as much as possible. The older cadets were in a more strict military environment, while the younger cadets were f=given some leeway. The main difference between an encampment of the 60's and today, the 60's encampment was run by Senior members, not cadets under some senior supervision. \
Even attending the required RST, cadet staff can't (or won't) understand the concept of hazing. This is where the untrained TAC come in. To prevent hazing. The problem with that, each TAC has his or her opinion of hazing based on their own morality., not a standard defination. And the comments of this thread proves that what is demeaning, or hazing is seen differently by individual members.

[RedFox24]

^ RedFox, holding a grudge for so long will give you an ulcer. Are you really trying to say that your fondest memories of CAP are being mentored?  Mine would surely not be be that.  You must have had a pretty lame Squadron if that's what you considered "funnest".   

Spike I will try to explain it. 

I am not holding a grudge.  I don't TRUST those people and choose not to allow them to participate in activities I command or let my people participate with them in activities because they are not the role model I want portrayed to the cadets.  I don't want some cadet to go FMJ because some senior member thinks it "Fun".  Those people have not place in our program. 

Yes, when being instructed and learning something you want to learn by someone who cares about your development, not to be a trash can beater but a leader I would say that yes, those times and those seniors are my fondest memories.  I learned a lot about SAR, flying (which despite the fact that I dislike it tremendously I learned and loved when a Cadet), organizational skills, command, leadership and communications.

We had a blast as a squadron.  And olefido can testify to, we had leaders who were serious about their jobs in CAP but they were FUN, made things interesting, could cut a joke one in a while and they TRAINED AND MENTORED us. 

A lame and poor unit or activity in CAP is one where bullies and trash can beaters exist.  And those people should be run out of the organization with a vengeance before they destroy it any more.

[Ned]

In the majority of cadets they are the 12 to 14 year olds attending their first encampment. They do not need the strict military environment that an older cadet would accept.

Interesting word choice.

Can you expand on your thoughts in this regard?

[davidsinn]

In the majority of cadets they are the 12 to 14 year olds attending their first encampment. They do not need the strict military environment that an older cadet would accept.

Interesting word choice.

Can you expand on your thoughts in this regard?

Has NHQ/CP ever looked at military boarding schools that take in teenagers the same age as our cadets? How do they handle hazing and discipline? I ask because we have one just 20 minutes away and there is another one about 2 hours away and it just occurred to me that they both have the same age range as we do.

Note: I'm not talking about the ones for bad eggs. I'm talking about the ones famous people send their kids to. We have the NY Yankees CJ2 land at our airfield quite often as some of their big wigs are alumni or have kids there.

[Major Lord]

Redfox's squadron sounds like it leans towards the "Girl Scout Llama Camp" end of the stress distribution curve. Perhaps he could give us a few examples of Cadets that have benefited in quantifiable ways. How many Spaatz Cadets has your Sq generated in the last 2-3 years? Cadets receiving Commissions in the Armed forces, or attending service academies? Elected to public office? Guest spots on "survivor"? Millionaires?

Major Lord

[RedFox24]

Redfox's squadron sounds like it leans towards the "Girl Scout Llama Camp" end of the stress distribution curve. Perhaps he could give us a few examples of Cadets that have benefited in quantifiable ways. How many Spaatz Cadets has your Sq generated in the last 2-3 years? Cadets receiving Commissions in the Armed forces, or attending service academies? Elected to public office? Guest spots on "survivor"? Millionaires?

Major Lord

Lets see Major, in another thread according to you I am not a real Ham Radio operator and now my squadron is part of the girl scouts.  I see..........

[Major Lord]

Redfox,

No, that is not what I said, in either case. You are just being contrarian, as per your own self-description. You described a model of your squadron based on your hatred of the "FMJ" cadets and seniors you experienced as a cadet, and I was wondering how that model worked out for your current and recent cadets. I believe you mentioned "organizational skills, command, leadership and communications" and I would like to get a clearer idea of how these skills aided cadets in contrast to the paramilitary paradigm we have for training in CAP. I certainly meant no disrespect to the Girl Scouts in comparing them to your squadron.   

Major Lord

[Short Field]

[A lame and poor unit or activity in CAP is one where bullies and trash can beaters exist.  And those people should be run out of the organization with a vengeance before they destroy it any more. 

+1  There are people I still despise after 40 years due to hazing and I will dispose them until the day I die.  Holding a grudge?  No, it was just that they showed what their real character was all about - and the flaws hidden within it.  I have no use for them in my life. 

I also worry about people who only follow the rules because they are afraid of punishment - not because they have accept the core values of the organization as their own.  Makes you wonder what they will do if they found a situation where they believed they wouldn't have to worry about being punished...

[Nathan]

I'm copying this over from CS, since I think it's necessary to debunk an underlying assumption that seems to be present. It's slightly edited to remove the second-person references and make it more essay-like.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't recall actively pursuing the agenda to indoctrinate cadets into a military lifestyle, especially since I have not been in the military and wouldn't be the authority on the best way to do that. Rather, I think that the military does certain things to train the recruits to respond to stressful situations, and I certainly think that has applications in CAP.

For instance, unless there are soldiers using push-ups as some sort of odd combat maneuver, the push-ups certainly don't indoctrinate any sort of military training. Yet, the military uses it, and has done so for quite a while. So while you can be against it, you can't say that just because the military uses it makes it "military indoctrination." Likewise, waking cadets up in a less-than-motherly way seems to be common practice in the military, but, at least for non-combat troops, this is unlikely to be actively useful in the day-to-day operations of the military. In fact, at least from my conversations with current USAF guys, the day-to-day, non-combat life of the USAF folks (which makes up the vast majority) doesn't deal with ANY of the "hazing" practices that is called out as "military indoctrination." Yet, they still had to deal with it in BMT. I doubt it's because the USAF trained their people to deal with a mortar attack in the middle of the night, but rather because they believe there is some value in the training that even applies to the day-to-day, civilian-type jobs that many people in the USAF hold.

If this is the case, then why can't this training work for ACTUAL civilians? If we aren't teaching them small unit tactics and how to throw a grenade, then can it actually be said that the techniques discussed as "hazing" are military indoctrination just because the military trains their people with it? That seems like a fallacy. We aren't indoctrinating cadets to medical school by making them get up early. We aren't indoctrinating them into a job in aerospace by teaching them aerospace material. We aren't indoctrinating them to join the clergy by offering religious services during encampment.

The bottom line is that we are SUPPOSED to be training these people to have flexibility and preparation in choosing what they want for their life. I can think of no activity at any encampment I have been to, nor can I think of any practice I have ever advocated, that trains people to be good soldiers, and therefore can be classified as "military indoctrination."

[Major Lord]

http://www.girlscoutsnorcal.org/documents/PP_Llama.pdf

Is this patch authorized?

Major Lord

[Larry Mangum]

Ned raised a good point about how we cannot even agree on what hazing is. When I think of the first encampment I attended as a TAC Officer, I was surprised by the attitude of some of the other TAC's when bunk's got ripped apart and overturned and gear thrown in the hallway.  They were offended and I was not, after all, having gone through basic, I had seen a lot worse then that done to basics.

But upon later reflection, I realized they were right. Encampment is suppose to give them a taste of what it is like to be in the military and not for preparing them to serve in a hostile environment where instant adherence to orders and team work can make a difference between life and death.  Based upon that there is no justification for trashing their personal space or belongings. 

That is why I actually liked the clip, ignoring the dated derogatory slurs used by Jack Webb, watch how he interacted with them. I might have missed something, but I never saw him violate their personal space or possessions, yet he clearly communicated to them that their performance needed to improve.  Now go watch some of the clips on utube of cadets at encampments and decide which is worse.

Back to my point, our backgrounds play a huge role in how we perceive the definition of hazing.

[Eclipse]

I've watched RDC's instruct new recruits on rack-making - its a several hour process, reinforced and mentored by the RDC and PO's.

When they get it "wrong", there's consequences, but they don't include tossing the rack (though they weigh about 500 pounds, so that's a factor).

In CAP, we take a cadet who may have never made his bed himself, ever, show him once or twice how to set things up, and then the next morning start throwing things.

We can't emulate the consequences of failing in a a full-time training environment without providing the full-time training.

[NCRblues]

So i want to ask this question, not to argue but i truly wonder about it.

What if this cadet that has been shown how to make a bunk has been unable (or even unwilling) to do it properly? How long does the flight cadet leadership, and (eventually) tac's spend on this one child? When do we call it a day? How many times can we tell him how to do it before we are done?

Then if nothing else works do we send them home? then what do we do when mom or dad calls poed because we sent their "angel" home because he/she could not make a bed?

Like i said, just wondering what others feel and even if some consider this hazing?

[Eclipse]

Instructing a failing cadet on proper procedure is not hazing, its what we do.

If they can't get it right but are really trying, eventually its just a few points during the inspection.

No one is going home for a bad rack.

Now, if he tells you to go "salute yourself, I'm not doing it", then its a direct conversation with the commandant and the commander and a potential ticket home, but that's a disciplinary action unrelated to the objective evaluation of his rack.

If mom and dad don't like it they are free to discuss it with the Wing CC and file a complaint if they are so inclined.  The IG will investigate
and find it was justified and everyone moves on.  BTDT.

[Spike]

Waht is the real purpose of Encampment anyway??  Seriously, I have been to many Encampments, yet it seems debatable what the real purpose is.  I honestly think we can do without Encampment in today's CAP. 

Just to make sure there is no Hazing happeneing, I vote to stop all Encampments until a clear set of isntructions on how to properly conduct one is published.

[Eclipse]

See CAPR 52-16, Page 40.

Or this thread for a discussion of same: http://forums.cadetstuff.org/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=13650&p=262240#p262240