Help Wanted - Hazing Analysis

[Spike]

I am curious to see what Ned's answer is, since he will be writing the new rules for all of US.

[NCRblues]

Actually, making cadets or trainees hop in and out of bed is an accepted training model in every branch of the military. It offers several different training scenarios. We are training the cadets to respond to air craft crashes, major disasters, and lost persons ext ext.

Are you really telling me that in any of those situations the cadets will not face a "loud noise" that will confuse them or stress them out? How about tornado sirens? This glove on approach to training these cadets is causing cap more problems than if we had a stricter basic encampment.

By having the cadet's move from a rested, unstressed position (i.e. lying down) to an active alert position we are forcing the cadets/trainees to confront stress's that they will face on a daily bases on caps missions.

We have cadets respond to natural accidents, to include tornados and earthquakes; do we truly think that no storm could hit an area twice? Or an aftershock could never hit the area where cap ground teams are working?

If we are not training cadets (that could and more than likely will participating in ES activities) to follow orders of senior members (that are the guardians of them at these missions) without question and with speed, than what is the point of training at all? The first time these cadets come upon something stressful they will simply leave? Stop working altogether? If they do that they are no longer an assets to assist in Es activities, they are liabilities to whoever is in charge of them.

By putting cadets through a simple training measure as banging a trash can (or loud noise) to wake them, we can see who could handle stressful situations like ES without life (or lives) on the line.

[N Harmon]

Actually, making cadets or trainees hop in and out of bed is an accepted training model in every branch of the military. It offers several different training scenarios. We are training the cadets to respond to air craft crashes, major disasters, and lost persons ext ext.

No we're not. The CAP cadet program does NOT exist to train cadets to respond to aircraft crashes, major disasters and lost persons. Nor is the purpose of encampment to teach those things. I think you're grasping at straws here to justify the actions in that movie.

Are you really telling me that in any of those situations the cadets will not face a "loud noise" that will confuse them or stress them out? How about tornado sirens? This glove on approach to training these cadets is causing cap more problems than if we had a stricter basic encampment.

Again. It's all about whether the training has tangible benefits which outweigh the risks. When I was a cadet I recall another cadet banging his head waking up to a fire drill. Now, I have no problem explaining to a cadet's parent that little johnny has a bruise on his forehead because we had a fire drill, which was necessary to ensure everyone could evacuate the barracks. But I'll be god [darn]ed if I'm going to be explaining why little johnny jumps every time a book slams because he was treated to that sort of repeated behavior over and over again through the course of 9 days.

And I would like you to expand a little on how not having a stricter basic encampent is causing Civil Air Patrol more problems. What kind of problems? And how would a stricter basic encampment solve those problems?

By having the cadet's move from a rested, unstressed position (i.e. lying down) to an active alert position we are forcing the cadets/trainees to confront stress's that they will face on a daily bases on caps missions.

Again. We're talking about the CAP cadet program, not Emergency Services training.

[heliodoc]

WOW

Still revolving around that video, eh CAP??

Let get the meat on the subject.... The military, in its own way has toned down

It only takes CAPers to center their life around a video and go one worrin about bigotry and racism, let's get on with it and make the training follow the DoD since CAPers are so willing to quote how much we are following thew DoD.

Ned, I am sure there is plenty of material to get a new manual going with little or no input from NHQ legal and WE ALL know they are going to put their $3.22 worth of weight into it

WOW CAP worryin about hazing and stress for cadets.......maybe they ought to be out of high school roaming the streets, huh?

Boy, CAP sure can go overboard on this issue can't it??   Answer:  Don't send em to encampment if you or their parents are afraid..

There is plenty of documentation on this issue....CAPers just LUUUUUUUUUUUUUUV to beat a deceased horse 'til it's beef jerky

Comments about leaders in CAP....verrry few!!

[davidsinn]

WOW

Still revolving around that video, eh CAP??

That was the whole point of the thread in case you missed that.

[heliodoc]

Sorry, I did not miss that...

Seems to me that there has been threads to this very subject before...

"Hazing" in CAP's case is a little more broad than some ol war video. 

That I did not miss, either.  But thank you for reming=ding me!

[N Harmon]

"Hazing" in CAP's case is a little more broad than some ol war video.

No, but having a central frame of reference is important. As is talking about specifics. For too long "hazing" has been, with a couple of exceptions, something that one can't quite explain but knows it when he/she sees it. Well, here it is. You've seen it, and now tell Ned why it is or is not hazing.

[Major Lord]

Back to Ned's point, I think he was looking for an assessment of whether the segment in the video clip would constitute hazing, and to justify that opinion. The question of whether or not stress is an invaluable part of a basic military training or its cadet-flavored equivalent is a separable matter. Stress  is used to condition a cadet ( or other animal) to instantaneous obedience to orders. This is a major safety issue around things that go boom or fall out of airplanes, buts its not really directly relevant to the issue of Hazing. You can have a stressful environment without hazing, and you could even have a hazing environment without stress, although this would mean you are probably not very good at it.....

Major Lord

[raivo]

Now, I have no problem explaining to a cadet's parent that little johnny has a bruise on his forehead because we had a fire drill, which was necessary to ensure everyone could evacuate the barracks. But I'll be god [darn]ed if I'm going to be explaining why little johnny jumps every time a book slams because he was treated to that sort of repeated behavior over and over again through the course of 9 days.

I have yet to hear of any former or current CAP cadets developing PTSD symptoms from encampment. (extreme cases of actual hazing notwithstanding)

[Spike]

I believe that this was not a good experiment overall.  Hazing to one person is not hazing to another.  The context of the video is out of context with modern day, and modern day CAP. 

However, should NED show us a CAP video in which he believes there to be hazing going on and we comment on it, that would be a different story altogether. 

Perhaps the writing of an Encampment Manual that details the 5 W's, and dictates exactly how Cadets, Cadet Staff and Senior Staff should behave is more relevant.

Too me, that video we watched was very gentle compared to what happens in the real military.  Let me say though, as an Officer and a person who has held Command before, I watched what I would say because of the PC police running around in the Army.  I did not want to have to stand before my Battalion Commander and explain why I called a bunch of Soldiers "girls".

In CAP I do the same.  I make it very clear during my in-briefing with new Cadets and Seniors what I will tolerate and what I will not.  It is up to the Leadership in the Squadrons to make sure there is no Hazing.  I hate to say it, but most Cadets pick up on BAD PRACTICES at Encampments and Special Activities. 

Those are the places where NED and his team of Hazing Preventers need to start at. 

[ol'fido]

We keep talking about what is hazing or what acceptable levels of stress are, but I was taught that the purpose of CAP was to have FUN, be safe, and learn something. My job is stressful enough. When I go to a CAP activity, I don't want to cause stress or be under stress. I want to have FUN!Making some kidette do pushups or banging on a trashcan to wake a barracks bay up is not my idea of fun. Yes, I know we have to do some serious stuff once in a while, but why go out of our way to make it that way. You can be professional and cut a joke once in a while. When you make learning or training stressful, the only thing you teach the cadet is to do whatever makes the stress go away. That's not how I want to impact the cadets I work with.

[Eclipse]

We keep talking about what is hazing or what acceptable levels of stress are, but I was taught that the purpose of CAP was to have FUN, be safe, and learn something. My job is stressful enough. When I go to a CAP activity, I don't want to cause stress or be under stress. I want to have FUN!Making some kidette do pushups or banging on a trashcan to wake a barracks bay up is not my idea of fun. Yes, I know we have to do some serious stuff once in a while, but why go out of our way to make it that way. You can be professional and cut a joke once in a while. When you make learning or training stressful, the only thing you teach the cadet is to do whatever makes the stress go away. That's not how I want to impact the cadets I work with.

Yep and a half.  Let's remember what the whole program actually is, folks.

banging on a trashcan to wake a barracks bay up is not my idea of fun.

And in our case its an excellent way to get the OOD to come and ask us to leave...

[raivo]

Maybe it's just me, but as a cadet I loved that kind of stuff. Maybe not at the time, but I definitely looked back at it and said "Wow, that was actually pretty fun."

[Spike]

Maybe it's just me, but as a cadet I loved that kind of stuff. Maybe not at the time, but I definitely looked back at it and said "Wow, that was actually pretty fun."

Same here. 

Stress is a part of life.  How does banging a trash can going to hurt anyone?  The only thing it does is tell everyone "time to get up".  Most I am sure want to wake up each Cadet by singing praises in their ear until they wake up smiling.  Well, that is not how life works.  My alarm clock is louder than what some of you want. 

It is also not bad to teach a sense of urgency.  Giving an allotted time limit to do a menial task is something most people deal with daily. 

[Eclipse]

^ Yep, requirement of time management, pressure regarding things that need to be done, expectations of performance, all good.

Banging on a trash can to show how much you've spent on Netflix, no.

Somehow the First Sergent standing up in the compartment and calling "Everybody up!" seems to work just fine.

Of course that doesn't read as well on film.   

[RedFox24]

We keep talking about what is hazing or what acceptable levels of stress are, but I was taught that the purpose of CAP was to have FUN, be safe, and learn something. My job is stressful enough. When I go to a CAP activity, I don't want to cause stress or be under stress. I want to have FUN!Making some kidette do pushups or banging on a trashcan to wake a barracks bay up is not my idea of fun. Yes, I know we have to do some serious stuff once in a while, but why go out of our way to make it that way. You can be professional and cut a joke once in a while. When you make learning or training stressful, the only thing you teach the cadet is to do whatever makes the stress go away. That's not how I want to impact the cadets I work with.

+10¹⁰⁰

Maybe it's just me, but as a cadet I loved that kind of stuff. Maybe not at the time, but I definitely looked back at it and said "Wow, that was actually pretty fun."

Well as a cadet many moons ago I loathed the cadet staff and Seniors who did that kind of stuff to me no matter what the activity.  And all these years as a senior, I have no respect or use for those members who are still in the program whom I run into from time to time. I don't want them around me our my units personal.

The funnest times and most educational times in CAP has been when I was mentored and taught. 

[Spike]

^ RedFox, holding a grudge for so long will give you an ulcer. Are you really trying to say that your fondest memories of CAP are being mentored?  Mine would surely not be be that.  You must have had a pretty lame Squadron if that's what you considered "funnest".   

[Ned]

I believe that this was not a good experiment overall. Hazing to one person is not hazing to another. 

That appears to be the result here, and I think we can all agree that it is a significant problem.

Pretty much everyone agrees that hazing is always inappropriate, and should be strictly forbidden in CAP.  Indeed, we have written a fairly strict regulation to forbid it, which calls for immediate suspensions and investigations to protect our cadets from harm.

We have a standard definition - borrowed directly from our DoD partners - and a mandatory three hour class explaining the definition, and helping leaders identify situations where it occurs and what actions to take when it does.  (I am referring to RST classes for activities lasting over 4 nights.  My educated guess is that a majority of our active CP leaders have taken RST at least once.)

And yet, to judge by the response to this thread, reasonable CP leaders still cannot agree that a particular military scene is hazing or not.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is a problem.

If CP leaders cannot use their common sense and apply the standard CAP definition to a given situation with a modicum of consistency, then we have failed to define and communicate our standard effectively.  Without a decent consensus of what is or isn't hazing - and severe sanctions against members for engaging in the illusive activity -  the tendency for reasonable members will be to avoid anything that might be hazing.  And that is just a race to the bottom.

Just based on what folks have posted here, it is reasonable to expect substantially different levels of "military intensity" at different units and activities across CAP today, simply because we cannot agree on what it "should" be. 

It is almost as if each leader is saying "I think the appropriate level of military intensity at encampment is X and I think 'hazing' is when some other guy does X + 2."


I guess I'm saying that it may less important whether I think that the scene contains hazing, than the fact that folks I respect (y'all) cannot even come close to agreeing on whether it does or not.  And seem to have multiple strong opinions on the subject, no two of which seem similar.

Now I'm going to have to give a great deal of thought on how to effectively define a "military intensity level"and communicate it to the field in language so plain and simple that everyone understands and can effectively implement a challenging cadet program that is consistent from unit to unit and activity to activity.

Yuck.

[raivo]

It seems to me that there's a fundamental difference of opinion on what the purpose of an encampment is, and exactly how "militarized" it should be.

Though, reading back, that seems a little off-topic for the discussion. As far as whether it's hazing, I'll stand by what I said in my first post.

[Eclipse]

It is almost as if each leader is saying "I think the appropriate level of military intensity at encampment is X and I think 'hazing' is when some other guy does X + 2."

Better you than us.

You need to start with the word being used - in most cases the behavior is inappropriate, but not "hazing" in the traditional sense of a gateway ritual for newbs.  In most cases, infractions are more CPPT or common sense violations than "hazing".

What we have today is a subjective line based on a definition that no one can agree on which gets crossed regularly, both inadvertently and purposely.

What we need are objective definitions on appropriate behavior and videos or similar training that shows our leaders what they can do.  Just tell us what we can and should do.

We won't get any closer on agreements regarding "military intensity", but at least the line will be nice and bright with no excuse for crossing it.