Help Wanted - Hazing Analysis

[Ned]

Greetings,

As many of you know, one of my CAP jobs is to help develop CAP doctrine for our cadet program.  I am currently finishing up a draft for a new pamphlet - the 52-10 Implementation Guide - which will attempt to explain why and how we can create a challenging and vigorous military environment for our cadets while avoiding crossing the line into hazing.

Part of that project is providing some tools to help leaders identify and define hazing in real-world CP situations.

All experienced CP leaders know the defintion of hazing found in CAPR 52-10, which was adopted directly from the Department of Defense defintion.  But I think it is fair to say that even after taking classes like RST, sometimes reasonable minds differ over whether a given situation is hazing or not.

I'd like to ask your help with an experiment.  I'd like you to take a look at this video and then analyze the scene and explain whether the situation would be hazing for CAP cadets, and why or why not.  The more detailed your response, the better.

(The scene is a 6 minute YouTube clip from a venerable movie - "The D.I.", starring Jack Webb as a Marine Corps DI.  Obviously CAP is not the USMC, but for the sake of this project, please imagine that this was an encampment and that the DI character is a cadet flight sergeant or flight commander addressing typical CAP cadets in the barracks.)

Remember, the question is not whether this is an efficient or suitable leadership style, but simply whether this would be hazing in a CAP situation.

Click Here


This is your chance to help develop national doctine.  Help me out.


Ned Lee
National Cadet Advisor
(cool job, crummy job title)

[Eclipse]

Not hazing.

Not appropriate for use in CAP.

[Ned]

Not hazing.

Not appropriate for use in CAP.

Not disagreeing necessarily with either statement.

But could expand a little bit on why you believe it is not hazing?

[Eclipse]

Well, as I just said on CS, getting into the why's and why nots of hazing in this context is going to be difficult, because the language is dated, the behavior potentially acceptable with military services, and the whole thing is inappropriate for CAP, but to my eyes he was randomly picking people and grabbing whatever he saw that was out of reg.

Any cadet close to this would be sent home, starting from the trash can nonsense.

I didn't personally really see anyone "singled out" per se, in a negative manner beyond correcting legit issues.

Near the end he was just asking a question - and it demonstrates why the line is so dangerous.

[RedFox24]

Well, as I just said on CS, getting into the why's and why nots of hazing in this context is going to be difficult, because the language is dated, the behavior potentially acceptable with military services, and the whole thing is inappropriate for CAP, but to my eyes he was randomly picking people and grabbing whatever he saw that was out of reg.

Any cadet close to this would be sent home, starting from the trash can nonsense.

I didn't personally really see anyone "singled out" per se, in a negative manner beyond correcting legit issues.

Near the end he was just asking a question - and it demonstrates why the line is so dangerous.

+10

If this was a cadet doing this at our encampment, hes getting pulled and most likely wont go back, but to another place in the encampment.  Not hazing but in no way appropriate for CAP.

[RiverAux]

A sensitive person could say that the DI was using cruel and abusive langauge even though it is extremely mild -- "clowns", "girls" for example.  Does it rise to the level of hazing?  Possibly. 

I could see the earlier lines being translated into CAP terms.  "Because you were slow, you didn't get to the crash site, and THE PILOT IS DEAD!"

[RedFox24]

To explain a bit more,  You wanted opinions, so here are mine.

Not hazing because no one person was singled out in the context of our RST/CPPT training. 

Was it over the line for the real military?  Well I have no idea anymore what is PC and what is not PC in the real military so I cant speak to that.

Was if over the line for CAP, yes because, and I it my opinion based on my experience as a cadet 13 years old some 30 years ago at encampment, that from this point on those young cadets, a lot of them who have not been away from home, are going to be scared out of their minds for the rest of the day waiting for some idiot to bang a trash can or what ever because they think it is "real military". 

If we only had cadets 16 -18 yrs and older, sure, I still think it is unnecessary but would be more tolerable of it than at our current encampment where we have cadets from 13 on up. 

Outside of the trash can, the rest is fine for CAP, but again I think it is unnecessary.  We are not training combat troops.  We are not training members to respond without thinking to commands.  We are there to teach and instruct and I didn't see much instruction there. 

Ned, want to help things out a great bit, trash the current RST with its vague slides and wide open interpretation and get us a real RST with real situations to study and discuss instead of the junk we have to work with now,

[Eclipse]

We are not training combat troops.  We are not training members to respond without thinking to commands.  We are there to teach and instruct and I didn't see much instruction there. 

This should be on the top of staff applications for any CAP activity.

[Major Lord]

Clearly, its a trick question. Jack was the D.I.  and Joe Friday, and he is the only human in the world without sin......His shrine can be visited to this day.

However, I think that he avoided the Ad Hominem attacks that characterize a really good bit of hazing. Clearly, the context of his motivational and inspirational speech would be a bit over the top for CAP ( As a matter of fact, it is a "summer camp" sorry Joe!) Would some in CAP be offended by calling the lads "girls"? Sure. Would an overzealous safety person complain that they did not have adequate footware and reflective belts? Yes indeed. Joe would be capable of dialing his speech and conduct down to the level of the cadets if called upon to instruct them, but many of our Cadets and Seniors may have a little too much Movie-Marine in them to be allowed this much leeway in instructional technique. Leave this work to the professionals, not a 14 Y/O badger or a 65 Y/O POW camp internee.

Major Lord

[Cecil DP]

This movie is over 50 years old. The DI was using the methods that were current for the time period. At no time was he using foul or offensive language to the recruits or physically mistreating them. A Drill Instructor's job is to get75-80 people to work as a team, instill discipline, and make men/women out of children. The methods seen in the movie were actually less harsh than I remember from my  PI boot camp in 1968.

Would it be appropriate with cadets? Of course not. The missions of the Cadet Program and the United States Marine Corps are in no way alike.
Was Jack Webb Hazing/ No

Would it be hazing in CAP? Yes

[DG]

Not hazing.

Not appropriate for use in CAP.

Except for obvious references to booze, killing the enemy, and the smoking lamp,

why inappropriate for cadets?

Risky, to be sure, because the leader / instructor must be polished so as not to stray into overzealous, and commit sin of inappropriate personal attack or inappropriate language, and how many of our cadets are so polished?

But Jack Webb is so very polished, he does not do that.

[Senior]

I think the trashcan is no big deal.  I did that once as a cadet at
Pathfinders because I saw it done on some other military show.
No one thought it was a big deal.  I was awaken the next morning
the same way.  No harm no foul.
The DI was not hazing.
Couldn't do this in modern CAP.

[heliodoc]

Trash cans, dropping for twenty, trashing bunks, tying boot laces to dress shoes, tossing bunks, flipping bunks over, jumping out form behingd trees, etc etc etc etc

No wonder I wasn't too shocked at BCT in 1983 only because someone ahead of me did this this CAP prior  and had some WW2, Korea, or Nam type of experience

Did I feel "HAZED"  NO way!!  I was great fun....   Today's cadet may or my not be ready for the DI's in The Army or Marines.

CAP DOES NOT teach how a DI is going to "feel" that day.  A future CAP cadet who hasn't had a little fun being hazed....welll  it MIGHT be a fun first day getting PAID to get hazed.

Hazing in CAP?  How about going around to the Army, Navy /Marines, and AF to get their take on it.  Then CAP can REALLY get the view where that word "hazing " is used or is it just another big deal in CAP to get wrapped around about an axle??

Bangin trash cans and latrine duty...may it never end.  CAP cadets could use a few rounds pushing a mop or scrubbing a latrine...it IS gonna happen in Basic...they going to scream hazing then??  CAP REALLY needs to lighten up and get a grip on itself and its "corporate political correctness."  If I was today's BCT DI and some one said they were in CAP... I'd give 'em two weeks of latrine duty right off the bat and TELL em, you are in pay status now and in a uniform that requires paying more attention to detail than worryin about bling and Corfam shoes... you will get time time to do those things AFTER the US Gumints toilets have been cleaned to standard..

Sound to harsh for you CAPers?   That IS way of the real military.  CAP would be doing a little bit of service to insight that world ahead of time.

CAP... get down and give me twenty.  Modern CAP hasn't really adopted any DoD type of hazing, even if they "think" they adopted it from the DoD.  CAP Corporate wishes it could emulate the RM, but has a real time doing anything over and above political correctness.  But I will admit, The RM has had to become PC over the years...so CAP by that has had to.  But more paralysis of the hazing analysis...Is there a Govt grant for this study?  "cuz I can give you a few RM Army BCT units that sure can hep ya with that study

[Ned]

I know this is CT, but . . . topic, please.

An interesting variety of views.

I think we can all agree that it would be difficult for a 16 year old C/MSgt to pull off a decent Jack Webb impression, and this is an old film.  I selected the clip for this project because it is a) available, and b) it is not so obviously over the line one way or another.  Notice I did not use a clip from FMJ. 

But the question remains:  Would this be hazing in a CAP context?  Why or why not?

[Spike]

Not Hazing.  Everyone felt like a terd, not a single person or select group. 

I do not like the phrase "you people" however.  It can be misinterpreted as being racist.  A mother hears that and files a lawsuit. 

Ned, I applaud your effort.  It is difficult to tell which way to go.  Will you give us your answer? 

Today what we watched would not happen in CAP.  Most Senior Members are afraid of CPPT and adverse actions, they would step in and stop it (at least I hope they would).

[Short Field]

I am not afraid of CPPT - I just hate seeing bullies get off on "toughing" young kids.  You want to train Marines - enlist in the USMC and become a DI.  But take it out on adults - not kids.

[raivo]

It was like OTS day 1 all over again... /sob

Before I start this essay I'm about to pen, I'm going to preface it by saying that when I started CAP, it was run somewhat similarly to that video. (Actually, both the flight sergeants at my first squadron were Young Marines who happened to be FMJ fans... but I digress.) As the years went by, and I saw the dawn of the "anti-hazing" movement, my first impression was that CAP was getting "watered down" excessively. Interestingly enough, when I went through OTS, I found out that the DoD's definition of hazing was the same, but I felt that it was applied with a little more "common sense."

So, to start out, the DoD hazing policy defines hazing as "any conduct whereby someone causes another to suffer or to be exposed to any activity that is cruel, abusive, humiliating, oppressive, demeaning, or harmful." In my experience, though, CAP has used that term very liberally, to the point that almost any type of correction could be construed as hazing (having your mistake pointed out in front of your flight is rather humiliating no matter how it's done, isn't it?) It's my opinion that, executed correctly, even appropriate amounts of "harsh" military-style discipline is OK in CAP.

Observations as I watch through it again:

- Calling people "little girls" and "idiots" is demeaning, first off. (And to avoid misinterpretation, I'll clarify that it's demeaning to females by implying that they're weaker.)

- About 2:30, the DI starts laying into one of the recruits for not shaving. Don't see a problem here - honestly, in any military-style program, you're going to get yelled at when you make a mistake. The key is to not cross the lines of making it a personal insult (ie, calling someone ugly for not shaving) and to keep it to an acceptable level (ie, don't rant at a single person for two minutes straight.)

- Afterward, when he starts to talk about how they're disorganized, etc., I think this is appropriate for a couple simple reasons: it has to do with their training performance, and it's done with a training objective in mind. At the early stages of training (be it a week-long encampment, or a 3-month-long commissioning program), there is nothing that a flight *can* do correctly - they will invariably be told that they were too slow, too careless, etc., etc. A large part of what determined whether a statement is acceptable, is the objective/intent. The intent needs to be focus on the training objective - which, at this point in the recruits' training, is going to be instilling in them an urgent sense that they need to work harder to improve, and keep trying to improve throughout their training. It should absolutely *not* be because the person chewing people out enjoys it. (I'll go ahead and admit that I was probably guilty of that when I was a cadet.)

Final thoughts: I don't think it's inappropriate to yell at cadets a bit as a group, or individually. Things to keep in mind when employing discipline:

- Discipline with the objective in mind. Remember, you're trying to build them up, work them harder, and make them better and faster and stronge... sorry, got carried away. You're not trying to destroy their self-esteem.
- Singling people out CAN be okay. But don't insult them ("ARE YOU TOO STUPID TO DRILL A FLIGHT?!"), focus on fixing the problem ("THIS FLIGHT NEEDS TO BE BACK ON THE DRILL PAD THIRTY SECONDS AGO, CADET!")
- There's safety in numbers. Someone is going to feel much more comfortable (and yet, not *too* comfortable) when they're hearing about how their flight did badly, and not how they personally did badly. Which ties into my next point:
- Quantity. There's only so much people that people can take. Most trainees in any sort of military basic training program have a military career in front of them, and *want* to be there badly enough that they'll make the staff wash them out before they'll leave on their own. CAP cadets are middle/high school students who have a lot of other things that they could do with their time. Their "breaking point" before they melt down, tell their flight staff exactly what they think of them, and storm out of the encampment is going to be a lot lower.

And, obviously, tying cadets up with duct tape and forcing them to smile for the camera like we've all seen in that Powerpoint is never acceptable. 

[Short Field]

I was in the USMC and then enlisted in the USAF.  I have on rifle drill teams.  The toughest drill instruction I had ever had (as in exactness, detail, and timing) was high school marching band (the Number One Marcihing Band in the State).  There was LOTS of yelling going on when you started as a freshman - but none of it was "personal".  Yes, you got yelled at as mistakes were pointed out such as not being in step, not doing the next manuver correctly, missing your movement cues, etc --- but it was only about pointing out your obvious mistakes so you could correct them.  Yes, you were yelled at, but that was because a normal taliking voice didn't carry on the field.  It was NOT about someone getting in your face to demean you. 

We are not training South Korean DMZ guards who take pride in taking a full face TKO punch from their NCO and getting back up like it never happened.

[JoeTomasone]

The problem with determining if something is "hazing" is the same as determining if something is sexual harassment -- much of it relies on the perception of the person being potentially hazed/harassed.

I do believe that CAP goes overboard with CPPT although as a parent I understand and concur with the reasons why the overreaction occurred.    I think a happy medium exists somewhere back towards what my cadet days were like.

For example: We had a SM who stripped down to his skivvies to go swimming on a hiking trip -- BZZZT - he got the 2B express.

However, if I was screwing up and was made to drop and push asphalt 20 times?  I didn't and don't consider that hazing, as long as it is being done to motivate and train rather than punish, insult, or demean.    Of course, if I was made to wear a pink hat with ruffles and sing Kumbaya in front of all the other cadets, that would be a different story.   (One that usually begins, "One time, we were at a bar..." -- But I digress..)

[BillB]

The Jack Webb model is not in favor in or out of the military. But reading the responses, It is hazing and it's not hazing, depending on the INDIVIDUAL reaction of the Senior members. And that is part of the problem. Senior members making decisions on what a 14 year old might think of a particular action.
Former cadets involved in the cadet program, look at Encampments as a "summer camp". When current cadets see Encampment Yearbooks from years ago, they say those encampments looked to be more fun. The fun has gone out of the modern Encampment to a large degree. For several years CAP used a photo in brochures of a cadet officer sticking a pencil in a poorly stiched Wing patch. Today this would be hazing. What wasn't shown was that the cadet officer two years before had the same thing done to him by another cadet. By the way the cadet officer later won the Spaatz.
Many in this thread indicate that CPPT has gone overboard. I can agree and disagree with that. The way CAP defines hazing harrasement etc, may go to far. But for a semi-military program, which the cadet program is, much is within bounds. One thing CPPT has produced is a fear in cadet officers and NCO asd well as Senior members that whatever they do might be seen as violating CPPT. The Jack Webb model violates all aspects of Cadet Protection by carrying it to far. But there is a place in the cadet program for a more military experience at summer Encampments, and that's what the cadets have indicated over the years they want. A more fun encampment.