Naval Sea Cadets

[Flying Pig]

I like the Sea Cadets training list. I wish we could get some of our cadets to piggy back these courses!  Does anyone have any experience with these or the Sea Cadets in themselves?  There is a Sea Cadet unit here in Fresno, but I dont know anything about them.

TRAINING SCHOOLS

AIRMAN TRAINING (BASIC & ADVANCED)
AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL TRAINING
FAA GROUND SCHOOL
CULINARY ARTS TRAINING
MEDICAL TRAINING (GENERAL, FIELD, SURGICAL & DENTAL TECH)
FIREFIGHTING TRAINING
PHOTO JOURNALISM TRAINING
CEREMONIAL GUARD
SUBMARINE SEMINAR
MARKSMANSHIP TRAINING
CONSTRUCTION BATTALION (SEABEE) TRAINING (BASIC & ADVANCED)
MINE WAREFARE OPERATIONS TRAINING
MUSIC SCHOOL
SEAL TEAM TRAINING
EXPLOSIVE ORDNANCE DISPOSAL TRAINING
AMPHIBIOUS TRAINING
PETTY OFFICER LEADERSHIP ACADEMY
MASTER-AT-ARMS TRAINING (MILITARY POLICE/LAW)
JUDGE ADVOCATED GENERAL (JAG) TRAINING
SAILING SCHOOL
SCUBA SCHOOL
SEAMANSHIP TRAINING
SHIPBOARD TRAINING
LIVE ABOARD NAVY & COAST GUARD SHIPS & SHORE STATIONS FOR TWO-WEEKS.

[RiverAux]

Ok, I've got to throw the flag on Naval Sea Cadets SEAL training and Explosive Ordance Disposal Training.  I have a hard time believing that there are even cadet "orientation" versions of these like there is for PJOC.

[JayT]

Ok, I've got to throw the flag on Naval Sea Cadets SEAL training and Explosive Ordance Disposal Training.  I have a hard time believing that there are even cadet "orientation" versions of these like there is for PJOC.

I know people who went to them. They exist.

[RiverAux]

Okay, the flag has been recalled.  I've looked up some NSC annual reports and am suitably impressed.  Although their membership is less than half of CAP's, they get more of their cadets into the naval academy than we do the Air Force Academy..

However, one key difference is that the NSC is meant to aid in Navy recruiting:

The Naval Sea Cadet Corps was formed at the request of the Department of the Navy as a means to "enhance the Navy image in the minds of American youth." To accomplish this, ongoing training illustrates to Naval Sea Cadets the advantages and benefits of careers in the armed services, and in particular,
the sea services.

.

They actually do surveys (something I've suggested CAP do) tracking how many of their cadets go into the military.  They didn't break it down by percentage but I'd estimate it is pretty high.

The schools flying pig mentioned do exist and given the purpose of the organization they make sense -- they're actually their giving cadets an idea of what they might be able to do in the Navy.  As well as the schools, they do have the opportunity to go stay on ships and get training with the Navy. 

So, my assessment (based only on very limited research) is that they have a very focused cadet program that seems to do a good job of meeting its intended purpose.  CAP and the Air Force might learn a few things about the value of focus from them. 

[TEAM SURGE]

After seeing this list I think I am going to quit CAP!

Later guys!

Naww, just kidding. This is awesome, we need some activities like this.
I would do anything to do the seal training.
If they can take airman training we should be able to do the seal training.

[TEAM SURGE]

I found this website, is the Naval Sea Cadets a non profit organization? I found this website. These cadets seem to have there foot in a bucket of everything. I looks pretty cool.

http://www.seacadets.org/public/mission/

[winterg]

It also looks like they have a year long indoctrination program for adult leaders where they are classed as an instructor before they can recieve an officer promotion.

Also, did you notice the NSCC NAVAL SPECIAL WARFARE DEVICE and the NSCC EXPLOSIVE ORDNANCE DISPOSAL DEVICE and the NSCC SPECIAL WARFARE COMBAT CREWMAN DEVICE?  http://www.seacadets.org/public/programs/nscc_nlcc_awards.pdf

After looking at the info on their site it looks very interesting.  There's an NSCC Cruiser Division here in Milwaukee.  I might have to at least pop over for a visit.

Also, they're pretty strict on the physical fitness:

6. Physical Training. NSCC unit commanding officers (CO's) will schedule physical fitness training as a regular part of the units overall training program. The Physical Fitness Standards are listed on form NSCTNG 020. To augment these standards the NSCC borrows heavily from the President's Challenge Physical Fitness Program. CO's are strongly encouraged to visit the website www.fitness.gov or www.presidentschallenge.org to review this program. Fitness programs are available for the cadets and adults as well. It is essential cadets are able to meet the rigors of recruit and other summer training evolutions. Cadets scheduled to attend NSCC Recruit Training must pass the minimum standards prior to the CO signing and submitting the Request for Training Authority (NSCTNG 001) to the COTC. Cadets must be able to pass the Physical Fitness Test prior to the completion of NSCC Recruit Training. If failed, the cadet is required to "repeat" Recruit Training the following year. Successful completion of Recruit Training is required to attend any type of Advanced Training. NSCC's Physical fitness standards (and Navy's swim qualifications) are at Appendix 3 along with comments regarding maintenance of a PT program at the unit level that encourages daily activity.

[Eclipse]

As in all things, wiki is your friend:

The Naval Sea Cadet Corps is officially supported by the Navy League of the United States, and is endorsed by the United States Navy, United States Marine Corps, and United States Coast Guard. The United States Coast Guard, through COMDTINST 5728.2C, USCG Public Affairs Manual, has designated the USNSCC as the Coast Guard's primary youth group, instead of a JROTC.

Before we start comparing the organizations, as has also begun in another thread, some key differences need to be indicated up front:


The NSCC is not a Naval program, per se, but as indicated is a program of the Navy League which is a charitable  organization made up of former USN, USMC, & USCG.

The NSCC has no operational component or mission, they may volunteer on occasion to help in times of distress, but that's a different story.

The NSCC has no adult program, all adults involved are focused on the cadets.

The NSCC is clearly a recruiting tool for the Navy, (or other military service) whether an overtly published mission or not.

That doesn't make the NSCC better or worse. just different.

[maverik]

I know a guy that's in it and it seems like a good program to progress into naval services, but my friend has gone a different route and is learning to become an ATC within the program.

[MIKE]

Merged.

[RiverAux]

They appear to do a very good job meeting its primary purpose -- Navy recruiting.  CAP's cadet program on the other hand seems sort of unfocused and may be trying to do a little too much. 

Sea Cadets aren't a Navy program, but they seem to be getting as much, if not more, support for their programs from the Navy than we do from the Air Force.  Heck, in my state the sea cadets have better access to military facilities than CAP.

[Flying Pig]

I wonder what it would take to get CAP Cadets in on some of these activities?  What an awesome program to send cadets to the SEAL program or EOD. Now, I know the cadets arent going to EOD school, but it would be a neat partnership to offer.  Perhaps a CAP SEa Cadet/CAP exchange program.

[RedFox24]

For several years the ILWG Summer Encampment was on base at Volk Field with the Sea Cadets at the same time.  We exchanged instructors, messed together and even participated in each others pass and review.  I can say that they were nothing but a first class organization, well run and well disciplined.  Their cadets at Volk were just at or a little older than our basic cadets.

For a couple of years when the Encampment was at another location in Illinois we had another group of Sea Cadets on base the same time we were.  This unit was a "Sea Bee" unit out of Ohio, they were doing community projects etc.  They were older, high school aged, and their commander was much older than the average CAP senior.  They were a disaster.  They did things contradictory to base policy, harassed our cadets at times, not to mention when they were not off building picnic shelters they would walk around base with their "weapons", yes M16 and SAWs, and point them at our cadets.  They were a complete and total joke.  It was all in their adult  leadership.

Despite this last experience, the NLSC's at Volk was a totally positive experience and so was the information exchange with their Adult leaders.  The biggest thing we learned from them was that most of our cadets could not participate in the SC program because of the physical requirements that a cadet had to pass to participate.  In other words their standard was so high that our cadets couldn't join because they couldn't pass the physical. 

I have nothing but positive comments about their program and would not mind working with the group again.  I have meet other NLSC cadets and seniors sense then, and can say that the group from Ohio was the exception, and not the norm. 
.02 worth.........

[wuzafuzz]

I was in Sea Cadets during the early 80's.  It was a great experience.  At the time they put on a two week basic training at the Navy Training Center in San Diego.  It was run by actual Navy instructors, not home-grown cadet program people.  Later I was able to spend two weeks on an aircraft carrier, shadowing the Master At Arms and "working" in the CIC.  Whether that kind of thing continues post 9-11 I don't know.

We had internal leadership positions within our squadron (aviation focus).  The opportunities to learn and practice were very good.  Most of our leaders were active or reserve Naval officers, Navy chief petty officers, and a smattering of NSCC officers.  As far as I could tell the support from the Navy was very good.  We had dedicated office space with the patrol squadron that sponsored us, we stayed in the BEQ and dined at the mess hall during our drill weekends.

Promotions within the program required the completion of the actual Navy correspondence courses and tests for your chosen field.  Like other cadet programs, advanced grade was awarded to cadets who enlist in the Navy, provided they complete a certain level of training.

Sea Cadets was a great experience and I recommend it highly.

[RiverAux]

Here are their PT standards.  Don't seem that much tougher.  http://resources.seacadets.org/training/atm_appendix_3.pdf .  Their mile run time requirements seem lower than CAP's.  

[Major Carrales]

I wonder what it would take to get CAP Cadets in on some of these activities?  What an awesome program to send cadets to the SEAL program or EOD. Now, I know the cadets arent going to EOD school, but it would be a neat partnership to offer.  Perhaps a CAP SEa Cadet/CAP exchange program.

I now have to call a "red flag."  There are people here that have a huge noise about HAWK MOUNTAIN "RANGERS" as "poser and pretenderism" or somehow a "wannabe" item, yet a cadet SEAL team is kosher?

Sounds a bit like "the grass is always greener" syndrome.   Again, be more proud of what CAP is than ashamed of what it is not.

As for the exchange program, I would support that.  The more we can network the better.   That would (or should) however be mutual...thus, sea cadets would be allowed to CAP encampments, powered and glider academies and the like.

[maverik]

I want to know how they can carry weapons unloaded or not as far as thheir PT requirements I'm all for the 11.9 secondshuttle haha. The only problem I could see with our cadets is the swim.

[SAR-EMT1]

 
Personally, I'm curious about that myself.

I didn't even get to do that in ROTC in college
Though I did qualify.

[BGNightfall]

Swim is not a big deal.  The swim quals are roughly the same as the U.S. Navy's.  Most people in my division in basic passed the swim the first time.  The recruits who did not pass went to remedial swim classes and most of them passed within a month.  I think we only had one guy not graduate with us due to the swim, and I seriously think he was phobic.

Long story short, it would very likely be a good thing to get CAP cadets more familiar with the water.  Especially cadets in coastal regions (where much of this interaction with NSCC would be taking place). 

[Flying Pig]

From what I have  been able to gather, the SEAL and EOD programs are more PT academies, allowing the cadets to go through the INDOC vs. actually teaching anything related to being a SEAL or EOD.  Also, an overall orientation to Navy EOD or Spec War as a possible career field.

[Gunner C]

From what I have  been able to gather, the SEAL and EOD programs are more PT academies, allowing the cadets to go through the INDOC vs. actually teaching anything related to being a SEAL or EOD.  Also, an overall orientation to Navy EOD or Spec War as a possible career field.

I can't see teenage cadets making night swims, dragging along training charges in surf, trying to attach them a a pier.  Yeah, I'm thinking it's a lot of PT, movies, and  . . . well, I'm not sure what else they could do.  I don't think they'd let the cadets go to SEAL beach parties. 

[winterg]

So why doesn't one of us enterprising individuals contact our local NSCC unit and ask what some of these pretty neat cadet opportunities actually entails?

Why does that sound like I'm volunteering?

I guess I'll send an email out to the Cruiser Milwaukee Division.

[Flying Pig]

Im already on it here in CA.  Ill keep you posted.  You work it out in your neck of the woods and we'll see what we come up with.

[hatentx]

Sent the Email as well.  I didnt know they were right here on the Base I work on a little creepy

[Hawk200]

If they can take airman training we should be able to do the seal training.

It's not Air Force training, the Navy has "airmen". Sailors in aviation related fields. They're not getting Air Force stuff, so it doesn't justify CAP cadets getting Seal training.

I'm no expert on what specifically constitutes an Airman in the Navy, other than having gone through part of weather school with Navy personnel. They were called airmen. Could one of our present or fomer sailors elaborate?

Overall, I'd think some joint efforts with cadets (cadet programs like our own, not academy type environments) from other branches would be ideal. The military in general wants joint working environments, why not start early? Would make anyone going into any branch a little more rounded. Nobody would be an expert on other branches, but it would be a good start.

[BGNightfall]

Well, since you asked...

Navy (and Coast Guard) Airmen are sailors E1 through E3 who work in aviation related fields.  In the context of the NSCC schools, "Seamanship Training" would refer to things like how to get a ship underway, and how to make it fast to the pier.  Basically an orientation to life as a Navy deck Seaman.  "Airman Training" would likely refer to flight deck procedures and life as a Navy unrated Airman. 

In terms of uniform differences, a Navy (and Coast Guard)Airman wears green stripes on all of their uniforms.  Seamen wear white on blue uniforms, blue on white uniforms.   

[SarDragon]

To further elaborate -

The above info on "Airman" is essentially correct. Anyone training in one of the twelve aviation general ratings, at the E-1 thru E-3 rank level, is referred to, respectively, as Airman Recruit, Airman Apprentice, and Airman. In the NSCC context, "Airman Training" would refers to training related to any of those twelve ratings.

The green stripes are worn only at the E-1 thru E-3 level. Red is worn by engineering ratings, and blue is worn by construction (CB) ratings.

More here.

[Bobble]

Heck, I might look into joining just because of the following reg excerpt:

Section 3: Discipline
0930 - General
0930.1 Discipline in NSCC shall be directed toward strengthening the character of each cadet through development of self-control and self-discipline.
0930.3 Disciplinary actions should be taken in steps to maintain good order and discipline.
a. Personal counseling to provide enlightenment as to what is expected in a regimented, disciplined, structured environment. In this regard, and counseling sessions requires a minimum of two adults present; three is recommended. If a female is receiving the counseling, one female adult must be present.
b. Extra Military Instruction (EMI) can include the following:
·   Additional marching not to exceed 1 hour a day to be performed outside normal training periods. Can be imposed individually or as a unit/group.
·   Curtailment of liberty or other free time and assignment of additional watches.
·   Assignment of additional work details, which can include cleaning details. Such work should not be performed after 2200 or before 0600.
·   Additional study, correspondence courses, Blue Jackets Manual, NSCC Regulations, etc.

Ooooohh, wait a minute, we would consider some of that to be 'hazing', wouldn't we?

[JayT]

Heck, I might look into joining just because of the following reg excerpt:

Section 3: Discipline
0930 - General
0930.1 Discipline in NSCC shall be directed toward strengthening the character of each cadet through development of self-control and self-discipline.
0930.3 Disciplinary actions should be taken in steps to maintain good order and discipline.
a. Personal counseling to provide enlightenment as to what is expected in a regimented, disciplined, structured environment. In this regard, and counseling sessions requires a minimum of two adults present; three is recommended. If a female is receiving the counseling, one female adult must be present.
b. Extra Military Instruction (EMI) can include the following:
·   Additional marching not to exceed 1 hour a day to be performed outside normal training periods. Can be imposed individually or as a unit/group.
·   Curtailment of liberty or other free time and assignment of additional watches.
·   Assignment of additional work details, which can include cleaning details. Such work should not be performed after 2200 or before 0600.
·   Additional study, correspondence courses, Blue Jackets Manual, NSCC Regulations, etc.

Ooooohh, wait a minute, we would consider some of that to be 'hazing', wouldn't we?

Nope. Would I do it at CAP? Nope.

[Bobble]

JThemann, Salty & Seasoned Contributor -

I'm curious as to how you have come to the conclusion that the first three bulleted items of 0930.3.b. would not meet the CAP definition of hazing as per CAPR 52-10:

"c. Hazing. Hazing is defined as any conduct whereby someone causes another to suffer or to be exposed to any activity that is cruel, abusive, humiliating, oppressive, demeaning, or harmful. Actual or implied consent to acts of hazing does not eliminate the culpability of the perpetrator. Examples of hazing include using exercise as punishment or assigning remedial training that does not fit the deficiency (such as making a cadet run laps for having poorly shined shoes). Hazing, as defined in this policy, is considered a form of physical abuse and the reporting procedures for physical abuse must be followed."

Please note the terms 'humiliating', 'oppressive', and 'demeaning'.  Somehow, I have a hard time believing that any CAP cadet who receives punishment in the form of a field day assignment (e.g., 'cleaning details') or marching alone for ~59 minutes after an activity ends would:

1) Not think all three terms are fitting, and

2) Find that the assignment has no remedial training value.

But maybe that's just me.  Perhaps you could provide further information that would change my point of view.

[JayT]

Simple. One is a CAP defination, the other is a NSCC defination.

Different organization, different rules, different punishment.

As I said, I wouldn't do it at CAP, nore would I condone it.

[Flying Pig]

Before we all start insulting each other.  I had one reason for looking into the Sea Cadets and wanting to see about joint training.  My son.  Im not looking for an argument about which program is better.  He is 11 years old and is dying to get into CAP.  In addition, he is a very avid swimmer and has a wall full of ribbons and medals from swimming.  The kid loves anything to do with water.  He is also looking forward to me finishing my Glider CFI so I can start teaching him to fly.
I thought if I could get CAP or the Sea Cadets to allow him to attend some of the Naval training and be in CAP he would literally have the best of both worlds.  He would love to do the SEAL Challenge or the SCUBA training just to name a Not to mention the other cadets who would attend also.  This idea sounds like it would be a great National Special Activity.  Navy EOD Orientation!

[Eclipse]

Heck, I might look into joining just because of the following reg excerpt:

Section 3: Discipline
0930 - General
0930.1 Discipline in NSCC shall be directed toward strengthening the character of each cadet through development of self-control and self-discipline.
0930.3 Disciplinary actions should be taken in steps to maintain good order and discipline.
a. Personal counseling to provide enlightenment as to what is expected in a regimented, disciplined, structured environment. In this regard, and counseling sessions requires a minimum of two adults present; three is recommended. If a female is receiving the counseling, one female adult must be present.
b. Extra Military Instruction (EMI) can include the following:
·   Additional marching not to exceed 1 hour a day to be performed outside normal training periods. Can be imposed individually or as a unit/group.
·   Curtailment of liberty or other free time and assignment of additional watches.
·   Assignment of additional work details, which can include cleaning details. Such work should not be performed after 2200 or before 0600.
·   Additional study, correspondence courses, Blue Jackets Manual, NSCC Regulations, etc.

Ooooohh, wait a minute, we would consider some of that to be 'hazing', wouldn't we?

Regardless, whats your point in this conversation?

Is your sole basis for joining an organization the minutia of their disciplinary actions?

[Hawk200]

JThemann, Salty & Seasoned Contributor -

I'm curious as to how you have come to the conclusion that the first three bulleted items of 0930.3.b. would not meet the CAP definition of hazing as per CAPR 52-10:

"c. Hazing. Hazing is defined as any conduct whereby someone causes another to suffer or to be exposed to any activity that is cruel, abusive, humiliating, oppressive, demeaning, or harmful. Actual or implied consent to acts of hazing does not eliminate the culpability of the perpetrator. Examples of hazing include using exercise as punishment or assigning remedial training that does not fit the deficiency (such as making a cadet run laps for having poorly shined shoes). Hazing, as defined in this policy, is considered a form of physical abuse and the reporting procedures for physical abuse must be followed."

Please note the terms 'humiliating', 'oppressive', and 'demeaning'.  Somehow, I have a hard time believing that any CAP cadet who receives punishment in the form of a field day assignment (e.g., 'cleaning details') or marching alone for ~59 minutes after an activity ends would:

1) Not think all three terms are fitting, and

2) Find that the assignment has no remedial training value.

But maybe that's just me.  Perhaps you could provide further information that would change my point of view.

"Wallking off gigs" is a very old concept in the military to deal with minor infractions. It's better than having paperwork on file that could ruin opportunities later. Even in the Air Force, I've had some additional duties that I took because it was better than having paperwork. I learned the lesson, and moved on.

In general, hazing is when the "punishment" is used for the sole intention of embarassing the person. CAP defines it a little differently, and we comply with their definition because that is the right thing to do. You don't have to agree with it to enforce it.

Strangely, there are perfectly fitting corrective measures that people still consider hazing. I could take a cadet that didn't, wouldn't and doesn't want to shine their shoes, sit them down with a shoe shine kit, tell them to actually shine those shoes, and many people would still consider it "hazing". The problem isn't that it's hazing, it's a matter of human ego. And human ego never likes hearing when it's wrong.

Would I do it in CAP? I'm with Themann on that one. No, I would not. I would probably use counseling letters, and when there's a bunch, I would find a way to dismiss the person. It's the only option we have.

Keep in mind that what CAP considers hazing is far different than what Sea Cadets consider hazing. We have no place to pass judgement on a program that is run differently than our own.

[Flying Pig]

Look, we have thread upon thread about hazing cadets.

I have emailed the Sea Cadet Unit Commander.  But who would I contact in CAP?  The Director of Cadet Programs I guess?

[Flying Pig]

Well, I guess that idea is over.  I posted the same question over on Cadetstuff and got this response.   


Unfortunately our insurance liabilities preclude us from having Cadets from other organizations at our training. We do have some joint trainings, FAA Ground and Flight Schools which are advertised to both programs as well as the Young Marines.

You could always join the NSCC as well, we have lots of cadets in both programs as well as JROTC.

_________________
LCDR Scott D. Oram, NSCC
Director of Internet Development
Regional Director 11-3
U.S. Naval Sea Cadet Corps

[Flying Pig]

From what I have  been able to gather, the SEAL and EOD programs are more PT academies, allowing the cadets to go through the INDOC vs. actually teaching anything related to being a SEAL or EOD.  Also, an overall orientation to Navy EOD or Spec War as a possible career field.

I can't see teenage cadets making night swims, dragging along training charges in surf, trying to attach them a a pier.  Yeah, I'm thinking it's a lot of PT, movies, and  . . . well, I'm not sure what else they could do.  I don't think they'd let the cadets go to SEAL beach parties. 

Although, from this article, making an 1100 yard open ocean swim with no fins aint no joke.  In addition to SCUBA training.  Oh well, its a mute point now.

http://resources.seacadets.org/public_affairs/articles/2005/art_050721.pdf

[Ned]

Well, I guess that idea is over.  I posted the same question over on Cadetstuff and got this response.   


Unfortunately our insurance liabilities preclude us from having Cadets from other organizations at our training. We do have some joint trainings, FAA Ground and Flight Schools which are advertised to both programs as well as the Young Marines.

You could always join the NSCC as well, we have lots of cadets in both programs as well as JROTC.

_________________
LCDR Scott D. Oram, NSCC
Director of Internet Development
Regional Director 11-3
U.S. Naval Sea Cadet Corps

Interoperability is difficult, but not impossible.

It looks like we might have a couple of USAC cadets at COS this year, and I am working with their senior leadership on an MOU that would make it easier to have joint activities.

But like LCDR Oram points out, insurance and CPP-like regulations are a serious hurdle. 

Our regs are pretty clear that a CPP-cleared senior has to be at every "CAP activity"; two if it is an overnight activity.

So, if we send a CAP cadet to a USNSCC activity does it become a "CAP activity"  because a CAP cadet / member is attending in an official capacity?

Maybe. 

And can a CAP cadet be supervised by USNSCC leaders without a CAP senior nearby?

Maybe.

Does it matter if the USNSCC leaders have been through similar CPP training?

Perhaps.

I hate to go "lawyer" on anyone, but we need answers that would sound good to Mom (and perhaps a jury) if, God forbid, something should happen while the cadet is attending another group's activity and breaks his arm on the obstacle course or whatever.

NHQ is actively working the issue, but "actively" in this context means working with lawyers and insurance companies in multiple organizations.   Which means nothing is happening soon.

In the meantime, "joint" activities can and do occur all the time and benefit the cadets and organizations involved.

Ned Lee

[Flying Pig]

Well, I guess that idea is over.  I posted the same question over on Cadetstuff and got this response.   


Unfortunately our insurance liabilities preclude us from having Cadets from other organizations at our training. We do have some joint trainings, FAA Ground and Flight Schools which are advertised to both programs as well as the Young Marines.

You could always join the NSCC as well, we have lots of cadets in both programs as well as JROTC.

_________________
LCDR Scott D. Oram, NSCC
Director of Internet Development
Regional Director 11-3
U.S. Naval Sea Cadet Corps

Interoperability is difficult, but not impossible.

It looks like we might have a couple of USAC cadets at COS this year, and I am working with their senior leadership on an MOU that would make it easier to have joint activities.

But like LCDR Oram points out, insurance and CPP-like regulations are a serious hurdle. 

Our regs are pretty clear that a CPP-cleared senior has to be at every "CAP activity"; two if it is an overnight activity.

So, if we send a CAP cadet to a USNSCC activity does it become a "CAP activity"  because a CAP cadet / member is attending in an official capacity?

Maybe. 

And can a CAP cadet be supervised by USNSCC leaders without a CAP senior nearby?

Maybe.

Does it matter if the USNSCC leaders have been through similar CPP training?

Perhaps.

I hate to go "lawyer" on anyone, but we need answers that would sound good to Mom (and perhaps a jury) if, God forbid, something should happen while the cadet is attending another group's activity and breaks his arm on the obstacle course or whatever.

NHQ is actively working the issue, but "actively" in this context means working with lawyers and insurance companies in multiple organizations.   Which means nothing is happening soon.

In the meantime, "joint" activities can and do occur all the time and benefit the cadets and organizations involved.

Ned Lee

So your admitting its the fault of your species?

[FW]

  Oh well, its a mute point now.

I had a little extra time to waste today.  This explains one of my new pet peeves


Blogs
By Mark Peters

One of my students recently described a "mute point" in an essay.

My usual reaction to that sort of flub is to write something in the margins along the lines of, "Be more careful," or "Avoid mixing up homonyms." I often suggest, "Reading your work aloud can help you identify mistakes of this type," even though that advice probably wouldn't help in this case. Depending on my level of crankiness and alcohol consumption, I might just write, "Your proofreading is horrible."

But I'm not going to write any of that stuff this time.

Instead, I'll point out to the student that a lot of writers have made the same mistake -- in fact, a mid-July Google search located more than 152,000 hits for "mute point," which means my student has enough company to fill a football stadium or two. Even allowing for discussions of the "moot" versus "mute" usage, that's still a metric truckload of mute pointers.

I'll tell the student that there's a reason so many people think the wrong expression is right: Not only does "mute point" sound like "moot point," but a moot point does (or should) end up being silent, unheard, squelched, and yep, mute. Far from being a result of sloppy proofreading or stupidity, "mute point" actually demonstrates that the writer -- though wrong -- is logical, informed, and inventive.

I'll also mention that "mute point" is an "eggcorn" -- a new category of writing mistake that linguists have identified and my fellow college teachers might find useful in responding to student writing. I'm certainly glad to have a new tool that helps me climb down from the high horse I have occasionally mounted in 10-plus years of teaching creative writing, essay writing, business writing, and you-fill-in-the-blank-here writing. It's nice to have a way of explaining mistakes that doesn't make students feel stupid.

Ok, I got that off my chest.  Now, back to the orignial thread.....  

[Ned]

Ok, I got that off my chest.  Now, back to the orignial thread.....  

Ahh, but this is more  fun. 

This was always my favorite:

Joey: All right, Rach. The big question is, "does he like you?" All right? Because if he doesn't like you, this is all a moo point.
Rachel: Huh. A moo point?
Joey: Yeah, it's like a cow's opinion. It just doesn't matter. It's moo.
Rachel: Have I been living with him for too long, or did that all just make sense?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLwYpSCrlHU

[JAFO78]

My youngest son was involved in this program through his middle school last year. He loved it very much. Something happened and he changed his mind. Stayed in the program as it was a school based class. He turned in his uniform, and stopped going to training weekends. Finished class with a good grade. When we moved over the summer and changed schools he wanted to get back in. The new school had this program but it was now an after school deal, and he passed. I think he just had a change of mind.

Next year he will be in High School, which has AFJROTC. I am tugging him towards that if not CAP.

[Gunner C]

From what I have  been able to gather, the SEAL and EOD programs are more PT academies, allowing the cadets to go through the INDOC vs. actually teaching anything related to being a SEAL or EOD.  Also, an overall orientation to Navy EOD or Spec War as a possible career field.

I can't see teenage cadets making night swims, dragging along training charges in surf, trying to attach them a a pier.  Yeah, I'm thinking it's a lot of PT, movies, and  . . . well, I'm not sure what else they could do.  I don't think they'd let the cadets go to SEAL beach parties. 

Although, from this article, making an 1100 yard open ocean swim with no fins aint no joke.  In addition to SCUBA training.  Oh well, its a mute point now.

http://resources.seacadets.org/public_affairs/articles/2005/art_050721.pdf

You're right.  That takes a fit body and a resolute attitude.  Open water is MUCH more difficult than a pool.  Got the t-shirt and it's not something that I'd like to do again. Correct - mute moot point

[Flying Pig]

Yeah, open water is a serious deal.  Nothing like getting a mouth full of cold salt water when your already sucking wind to ruin your day.  Of course, Okinawa in the summer time, it aint to bad as long as you dont try to swim over the top of a coral reef with the tides out!
Wow... I cant believe there was a time in my life where I got paid to literally eat, shoot and work out.  Those were the days!

[Gunner C]

"A breath of water is like no breath at all."

SF Underwater Operations Course Class 78-02

[Flying Pig]

"Oh Crap....Im a long way from shore"  Sgt. Robert Steht, USMC / 1997 

I hear that SF Course is the stuff of nightmares!?  There is a lot to be said for Jump Wings and SCUBA on the same uniform. 

[Gunner C]

Just fin hard and try not to breath too much.    Cross-overs were the worst.  Bobbing wasn't that bad.  Hundreds of flutter kicks with fins on with your mask filled with water sucked.  The runs were 5 mile sprints (seemed like).  All in all a fun few weeks.    It beat a sharp stick in the eye.   

SFUWO badge with jump wings just meant two time loser.     Actually, there's a lot to be said about just being a Marine.

[flyguy06]

There are a lot of things in the Cadet Program I wish were differant. I wrote a thread about in the Lobby forum. Its a shame when I get a parent that comes to me and want to enroll their son in CAP because he needs the discipline and I have to tell them , we are not that kind of program. Go see the Young Marines. Why should I have to do that? Parents see uniforms and they see military when they see CAP and they assume its a program similar to YM's. But why arent we?

[jimmydeanno]

There are a lot of things in the Cadet Program I wish were differnt. I wrote a thread about in the Lobby forum. Its a shame when I get a prent that comes to me and want to enrll their son in CAP because he needs the discipline and I have to tel them , we are not that kind of program. Go see the Young Marines. WHy should I have to do that? Parents see uniforms and they see military when they see CAP and they assume its a program similar to YM's. But why arent we?

I think all parents enroll their kids because they want them to get many of the things the military does well built in.  That includes discipline, attention to detail, leadership traits, integrity, selflessness, etc.  So to say that our program "isn't that kind of program," to me, is a little off.

All of our cadets get discipline.  It's not screaming in your face, pushing in the mud discipline, but drill, uniforms, expectations, etc all build it.

Yeah, we're not in the business of turning the kid with armed robbery convictions into a model citizen, but there's probably something they could learn if they chose to join.

[JayT]

There are a lot of things in the Cadet Program I wish were differnt. I wrote a thread about in the Lobby forum. Its a shame when I get a prent that comes to me and want to enrll their son in CAP because he needs the discipline and I have to tel them , we are not that kind of program. Go see the Young Marines. WHy should I have to do that? Parents see uniforms and they see military when they see CAP and they assume its a program similar to YM's. But why arent we?

This is definately a case of 'the grass is greener on the other side.'

Look, we all know that standards and protocols are different accross Wings and Squadrons. What makes you so sure the YM isn't the same way?

Everyone on these whines about the old days, and how things were toughter 'WIWAC' or 'Over in the Super Special Ranger Commando Corps,' but there seems to be precious little suggestions on how to change it past 'make things tough again' and the like. We're dues paying members. If we don't like something, we change it.

[flyguy06]

There are a lot of things in the Cadet Program I wish were differnt. I wrote a thread about in the Lobby forum. Its a shame when I get a prent that comes to me and want to enrll their son in CAP because he needs the discipline and I have to tel them , we are not that kind of program. Go see the Young Marines. WHy should I have to do that? Parents see uniforms and they see military when they see CAP and they assume its a program similar to YM's. But why arent we?

I think all parents enroll their kids because they want them to get many of the things the military does well built in.  That includes discipline, attention to detail, leadership traits, integrity, selflessness, etc.  So to say that our program "isn't that kind of program," to me, is a little off.

All of our cadets get discipline.  It's not screaming in your face, pushing in the mud discipline, but drill, uniforms, expectations, etc all build it.

Yeah, we're not in the business of turning the kid with armed robbery convictions into a model citizen, but there's probably something they could learn if they chose to join.

Jimmy,

Maybe in your community thats why parents put their kids in CAP. But my communityis ful of those kids with issues whose parents want their kids to be a in a positive program before they wind up in jail or dead. Yes, I have cadets that have behavioral challenges and a few have had run ins with the law. So yes,I deal with "those" kinds of kids.

[Instructor Disbrow]

I am a Sea Cadet Instructor.  These trainings are real and I have 2 children in the sea cadets and they have been on a combined 7 trainings ranging from Firefighting to Scuba School.  The Seal Training and EOD Diving School and the Special Boats trainings are the most elite and highly sought after.  If you would like more specific information just let me know!

[Instructor Disbrow]

Actually the Sea Cadets is not a Navy Recruiting organization.  Yes, there are big advantages for an accomplished Sea Cadet that joins the Navy.
- Can start at Day 1 getting paid as an E-3
- Promoted to E-3 at the completion of boot camp
- much of the course work the Cadets do does not have to be repeated when they join the Navy
- the cadets are better prepared for military life and thus are in better positioned to accomplish what they need to do in order to succeed and advance in the armed services.

But they are no more of a military recruiting org. than the boy scouts or the CAP.

In fact the CAP, from what I understand has a direct tie to the USAF, where as the Sea Cadets receives no funding from the Navy.

The big difference in the training that is available to Sea Cadets is that they have to pay small fees for them and yearly dues.
If you want any other information please let me know!

They appear to do a very good job meeting its primary purpose -- Navy recruiting.  CAP's cadet program on the other hand seems sort of unfocused and may be trying to do a little too much. 

Sea Cadets aren't a Navy program, but they seem to be getting as much, if not more, support for their programs from the Navy than we do from the Air Force.  Heck, in my state the sea cadets have better access to military facilities than CAP.

[Spaceman3750]

Its a shame when I get a parent that comes to me and want to enroll their son

This seems a bit backwards to me. Why would we want someone who has been forced here by their parents? Personally, I would think we would care more about the cases of a kid wanting to join than their parents telling them that they're joining.

[C/Martin]

Evey porgram has a positive in something they do best than all other programs. In JROTC I tend to see better drill in uniforms. In CAP I see a willingness to serve at all ages and an oustanding leadership program better than JROTC (or at least my JROTC unit's program). In the Sea Cadets, from my knowledge and opinion, they have better summer training opportunities and are more career related. I know nothing of the Young Marines really.

Basically, if you are looking for job-oriented programs, Sea cadets is the way to go even if you want to go Air Force. Cause most Naval jobs have an equivalent to any branch.

[SarDragon]

Evey porgram has a positive in something they do best than all other programs. In JROTC I tend to see better drill in uniforms. In CAP I see a willingness to serve at all ages and an oustanding leadership program better than JROTC (or at least my JROTC unit's program). In the Sea Cadets, from my knowledge and opinion, they have better summer training opportunities and are more career related. I know nothing of the Young Marines really.

Comparison between Sea Cadets to CAP is difficult because of the differences in focus and content of the summer activities. They accomplish different things for their programs.

Basically, if you are looking for job-oriented programs, Sea cadets is the way to go even if you want to go Air Force. Cause most Naval jobs have an equivalent to any branch.

Really? Please tell me what the AF equivalents are for the following ratings:
AB, AW, BM, BT, DC, FT, GMM, GMT, GS, HT, IC, ML, MM, MN, MT, ND, PM, QM, SB, SH, ST, TM, and any of the Nuclear Power specialties.

This list is about 20% of current Navy ratings; 80%, IMHO, doesn't constitute most.

We'll discuss the Army later.

[TCMajor]

Dave,

   You are absolutely correct.  You can't compare the two organizations because they don't even have the same mission.  While I like the Sea Cadets and I appreciate their mission, I am with CAP because I believe in our mission.

  For cadets, it boils down to what do you want to accomplish with your cadet career.  The training available in CAP is focused on our mission, and the development of strong aerospace leaders .  I would challenge you to run out of "cool" things to do as a CAP Cadet.  My guess is that you would run out of time as a Cadet before you run out of great training.  Sometimes you have to put a little effort in to get the "cool" to happen, but it is there. 

  We adults that are in Cadet Programs, its our challenge to help the Cadets realize their goals.  Lord knows there can be plenty of roadblocks thrown in front of us.  Sometimes its hard, but its always worth it when we succeed for the Cadets. 

  Dave, we gave up on youth training in the Army when they stopped sending us the reform school kids.   

[jb512]

Before we all start insulting each other.  I had one reason for looking into the Sea Cadets and wanting to see about joint training.  My son.  Im not looking for an argument about which program is better.  He is 11 years old and is dying to get into CAP.  In addition, he is a very avid swimmer and has a wall full of ribbons and medals from swimming.  The kid loves anything to do with water.  He is also looking forward to me finishing my Glider CFI so I can start teaching him to fly.
I thought if I could get CAP or the Sea Cadets to allow him to attend some of the Naval training and be in CAP he would literally have the best of both worlds.  He would love to do the SEAL Challenge or the SCUBA training just to name a Not to mention the other cadets who would attend also.  This idea sounds like it would be a great National Special Activity.  Navy EOD Orientation!

I was a League Cadet when I was 11 and I loved every minute of it.  I remember that we used to stay in the navy barracks on our "drill weekends", got to do a damage control simulator, and my mom escorted Sea Cadets to California for training by Navy Company Commanders.  It was my introduction to the cadet world and while CAP has good flight programs, the USNSCC has quite a bit to offer as well.

[DBlair]

I like the Sea Cadets training list. I wish we could get some of our cadets to piggy back these courses!  Does anyone have any experience with these or the Sea Cadets in themselves?  There is a Sea Cadet unit here in Fresno, but I dont know anything about them.

TRAINING SCHOOLS

AIRMAN TRAINING (BASIC & ADVANCED)
AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL TRAINING
FAA GROUND SCHOOL
CULINARY ARTS TRAINING
MEDICAL TRAINING (GENERAL, FIELD, SURGICAL & DENTAL TECH)
FIREFIGHTING TRAINING
PHOTO JOURNALISM TRAINING
CEREMONIAL GUARD
SUBMARINE SEMINAR
MARKSMANSHIP TRAINING
CONSTRUCTION BATTALION (SEABEE) TRAINING (BASIC & ADVANCED)
MINE WAREFARE OPERATIONS TRAINING
MUSIC SCHOOL
SEAL TEAM TRAINING
EXPLOSIVE ORDNANCE DISPOSAL TRAINING
AMPHIBIOUS TRAINING
PETTY OFFICER LEADERSHIP ACADEMY
MASTER-AT-ARMS TRAINING (MILITARY POLICE/LAW)
JUDGE ADVOCATED GENERAL (JAG) TRAINING
SAILING SCHOOL
SCUBA SCHOOL
SEAMANSHIP TRAINING
SHIPBOARD TRAINING
LIVE ABOARD NAVY & COAST GUARD SHIPS & SHORE STATIONS FOR TWO-WEEKS.

To be honest, I've noticed a lukewarm response from CAP Cadets about a variety of the NCSAs we offer. I hear many wishing that Combat Controller Orientation Course, Survival School, and Security Forces Orientation Course were actually NCSAs, and that NHQ would develop more activities along those lines.

That being said, if we offered even a few of those Sea Cadet courses mentioned above as NCSAs, Cadets would be going crazy rushing to apply since they are right in line with what the Cadets are always requesting.

[BillB]

Daniel....Several areas you list used to be CAP special acts. There was an FAA Orientation Course that gave the basics of Air Traffic Control, Control Tower operations etc. Florida also ran cadets through the Air Force Survival School at Eglin. Many of the others could be run as Wing level Special Acts, or even offered at the Squadron level. It would take an aggressive Wing DCP or Wing Director to institute many of those activities, and in Florida there are military base sites that offer many of those training areas. Florida Wing used to offer Firefighting training at Eglin AFB. They also offered Marksmanship training at MacDill, Homestead and Tyndall AFB as well as the Florida Highway Patrol Academy at Tallahassee. Training on many of the areas you list are still possible such as Weather Specialist at Camp Blanding or Aviation Powerplant Maintance at several AFB. If there is an Air Force Base in your Wing, many training areas would probably be available if someone would check with the Base.

[TCMajor]

Training on many of the areas you list are still possible such as Weather Specialist at Camp Blanding or Aviation Powerplant Maintenance at several AFB. If there is an Air Force Base in your Wing, many training areas would probably be available if someone would check with the Base.

This is so true.  If you have access to a military installation, your training opportunities are increased greatly.  In fact they are only limited by the inventiveness of your Cadet Programs Officers.  Remember, always try and have a "give" for your "take" from the military.  They have limited assets too, but if they can have a mutually beneficial relationship with your organization, you may be able to get further.  Additionally, I am a big fan of completed staff work.  If you as a Cadet have an idea for training, do some research, put together a plan, and present your idea to the command.  I have to say this; generally it should not the place of Cadets to approach the military directly for support.  Normally that should be done by a Senior Member, but casual conversations have been the start of many a great adventure. 

So our task as Senior Members is then to see how we can make good ideas happen.   Just because an idea, as presented, may sound silly or not doable doesn't mean that it is.  We can use many of the tools that CAP gives us to evaluate the idea and see how it can be done.  Take a look at the NCAS site http://www.ncsas.com/ , there are many great opportunities there for training.   Granted most of these are done as individual cadets rather than a squadron, but they are still great.  Hawk Mountain alone would take several years to get all of the great training available there.  Training that will make you more self reliant and create a real sense of self accomplishment.  I have never been to Hawk Mountain, but I do intend to go there and take several of their survival courses in the near future.  That is just one example. 

Nothing here was written with the intent of demeaning any other cadet organization.  I have nothing but respect for any organization that has as its primary goal creating independent and self reliant productive citizens.  My purpose was to show that there are plenty of great things to do as a Cadet in CAP.  All those other organizations do great things too, the main difference is the mission and desired end result of the product.  Yes, Cadets are a work in progress and what they become as adults is a product of what we do with them now.  So the question for the Cadet is;  What do you want out of your Cadet career?; Is CAP providing that?; If not, why?  The reason there are multiple organizations is because people are different, and they are looking for different experiences.  Make the best of your experience and be honest with yourself about expectations and your desired outcome.  Most of all....have fun!