Paint Ball for Cadets

[Stonewall]

Back in the day (a Wednesday by the way) it would be impossible for me to participate in any activity outside of CAP and not consider it a CAP activity.  Out of all my friends growing up after the age of 13, only 1 was not in CAP.  From movies to surfing, it was "just a bunch of guys who happened to be in CAP, getting together and do [insert activity, even paintball, here]. 

Just so happens I have never played paintball, nor do I have any intentions in starting.  Not against it, but to me, for cadets, CAP is the extra curricular activity.  It would be like a paintball team going out and playing basketball.  But that's just me.  If I were a CC or DCC, the only time I'd be concerned is if they showed up to some paintball activity calling themesleves "TEAM CAP", in the CAP uniforms and showing their CAP ID as their form of identification.

[JAFO78]

Back in the day (a Wednesday by the way) it would be impossible for me to participate in any activity outside of CAP and not consider it a CAP activity.  Out of all my friends growing up after the age of 13, only 1 was not in CAP.  From movies to surfing, it was "just a bunch of guys who happened to be in CAP, getting together and do [insert activity, even paintball, here]. 

Just so happens I have never played paintball, nor do I have any intentions in starting.  Not against it, but to me, for cadets, CAP is the extra curricular activity.  It would be like a paintball team going out and playing basketball.  But that's just me.  If I were a CC or DCC, the only time I'd be concerned is if they showed up to some paintball activity calling themesleves "TEAM CAP", in the CAP uniforms and showing their CAP ID as their form of identification.

I tend to agree with Kirt on this one. A lot of my cadets hung out doing stuff together on non meeting nights as half of them went to the same school and that's how they got recruited. As long as they did not wear their uniforms we were safe. We even went on trips but not as CAP.

I think you can do many things as long as it is not a CAP activity.

[SWASH]

I agree too.  I've gone paint balling and airsofting one some of my friends from CAP.  Did we say this was a CAP activity?  No.  Did any Senior Members or other cadets care?  No.  If someone higher in the chain of command tries to get said cadets introuble for going paintballing, and they did not associate themeselves to CAP, than that person is wrong.  CAP is a volunteer program.  It can not say what you can and can not do on your own free ti me with your friends.

[Eclipse]

It can not say what you can and can not do on your own free ti me with your friends.

Actually it can - there are any number of activities and behaviors which will get you terminated or disciplined whether you are in uniform or not.

This conversation is going the same way all the paintball conversations go - the conservative leaders arguing its simply not a good idea, and others arguing "you can't tell me what to do...". 

And in the end, everyone's going to do what they feel like anyway, chips falling wear they may.  Not much point to it...

[DC]

It can not say what you can and can not do on your own free ti me with your friends.

Actually it can - there are any number of activities and behaviors which will get you terminated or disciplined whether you are in uniform or not.

Yeah, but most of those are either illegal or immoral, and paintball (which, I will point out, is a recognized sport, a game) does not apply to either of those.

CAP is a volunteer organization, and just about everyone has a life outside of the few hours per week that we donate to CAP. It is not at all unusual for cadets to become friends outside of CAP. Just because two people are members of CAP does not mean that every time they meet it is a CAP activity.

I see no issue with cadets (or SMs, for that matter) getting together and playing paintball or airsoft or any other sport, as long as there are no uniforms and everyone understands that it is just a bunch of friends getting together.

CAP does not have the right to control my, or anyone else's lives when we are not in that uniform, or acting in that capacity.

[Dutchboy]

you can only if you want your wing IG knocking down your door and writing you up.

[SWASH]

you can only if you want your wing IG knocking down your door and writing you up.

Writing you up for paintabll, or illegal activity?

[Dutchboy]

illegal activity using CAP resources.

[Duke Dillio]

So to throw a wrench in the well oiled machine, what about squadron's that are dual chartered as Venture Scouting organizations?  I don't know all of their policies but if you want to announce this type of activity that is banned in CAP but is okay in Venturing you would still announce it during a regular meeting.  Besides paintball, this could go along with rappeling and any other nature of "CAP banned activity."

[RADIOMAN015]

Be careful with this one, especially if you are a senior member dealing with cadets.  If cadets gather for a non CAP activity with other cadets or seniors gather for a non cap activity with other seniors, as friends there's NO problem.   HOWEVER, once you add a senior member into the mix with cadets, YOU as the senior member are TAKING A RISK.  Personally, I think it is odd for senior members to hang around with cadets (not with their parents/guardians present) at other than CAP activities, especially if this "friendship" was established because of their participation in CAP.     BTW How may middle school or high school teachers do you know who hang around with their students after the school day ends/or school sponsored activity ends?  The same principal idea applies.  Minimize your risk exposure.  There are some of us in CAP who also feel that these type of senior with cadet unofficial activities puts the CAP corporation at risk for potential litigation IF something goes astray.  I personally would like to see something placed in the Cadet Protection Regulation/Briefing which specifically discourages this type of activity.  
RM      

CAP is a volunteer organization, and just about everyone has a life outside of the few hours per week that we donate to CAP. It is not at all unusual for cadets to become friends outside of CAP. Just because two people are members of CAP does not mean that every time they meet it is a CAP activity.

CAP does not have the right to control my, or anyone else's lives when we are not in that uniform, or acting in that capacity.

[Eclipse]

So to throw a wrench in the well oiled machine, what about squadron's that are dual chartered as Venture Scouting organizations?  I don't know all of their policies but if you want to announce this type of activity that is banned in CAP but is okay in Venturing you would still announce it during a regular meeting.  Besides paintball, this could go along with rappeling and any other nature of "CAP banned activity."

From the CAP perspective, since CAP is considered the "host" of the dual charter, our rules trump theirs, at least in terms of
the CAP Cadets.

[tarheel gumby]

I think in my very humble opinion that common sense should apply at all times. When I was in FLWG I was not much older than my cadets, that did present some challenges. I got through them because I used some common sense and the regs as a guide. My reasoning is that the regs are there for a reason. If there is a possibility of trouble DON'T do it.

[Always Ready]

Be careful with this one, especially if you are a senior member dealing with cadets.  If cadets gather for a non CAP activity with other cadets or seniors gather for a non cap activity with other seniors, as friends there's NO problem.   HOWEVER, once you add a senior member into the mix with cadets, YOU as the senior member are TAKING A RISK.  Personally, I think it is odd for senior members to hang around with cadets (not with their parents/guardians present) at other than CAP activities, especially if this "friendship" was established because of their participation in CAP.     BTW How may middle school or high school teachers do you know who hang around with their students after the school day ends/or school sponsored activity ends?  The same principal idea applies.  Minimize your risk exposure.  There are some of us in CAP who also feel that these type of senior with cadet unofficial activities puts the CAP corporation at risk for potential litigation IF something goes astray.  I personally would like to see something placed in the Cadet Protection Regulation/Briefing which specifically discourages this type of activity.  
RM      

CAP is a volunteer organization, and just about everyone has a life outside of the few hours per week that we donate to CAP. It is not at all unusual for cadets to become friends outside of CAP. Just because two people are members of CAP does not mean that every time they meet it is a CAP activity.

CAP does not have the right to control my, or anyone else's lives when we are not in that uniform, or acting in that capacity.

If someone were to get picky, parents of cadets that just happen to be senior members, would get in trouble along that same line. For example, Cadet Smith has been friends Cadets Long and Johns (made up names, made up situation BTW) since before they could fit into BDUs. Cadet Smith's father, we'll call him Daddy Smith, who just happens to be Lt Col Daddy Smith on Thursday nights for a few hours and a couple weekends a year, takes these three friends/Cadets out to go paintballing. To make things more interesting, they end spend the night at the Smith house with no other adults that are in CAP (with parental permission, not in writing). 

Another twist could be what if the adult in this situation is not genetically or legally related to any of the members. Say a family friend who has been taking these kids paintballing since they 10 years old (once again pre-CAP) who just happens to be a senior member in CAP.

What would happen if this was an actual CAP activity? Stuff would be flying...IG involvement, Wing CC getting involved, people getting fired, possibly 2B-ed, and possibly CPPT and CAPR 52-16 getting rewritten, added to, etc. Short answer: CHAOS! If you take the grade away from in front of these names, what happens? Nothing. A parent would not get into trouble over this, nor would a family friend or other trusted adult. It happens all the time, LEGALLY mind you, outside the proverbial bubble that is CAP.

Now, take this into consideration. An Active Duty AF Captain joins CAP and decides to go through the normal promotion methods (SM->2d Lt->1st Lt->Capt)( weird I know).  There are active duty AF enlisted members who are in the unit and most of them out rank him in CAP and a few are his supervisors in the chain of command (CAP-wise of course). The AF Capt disagrees with his CAP supervisor's (who is a SrA in the AF) decision on something and decides to issue an order to him as an AF Capt to a AF SrA overturning the decision. <sarcasm>Both the AF IG and CAP IG would love this case.</sarcasm> Should this be allowed? No, it's called a conflict of interest. When you step into the CAP bubble, you are wearing your CAP hat and grade. When you step out of CAP bubble, you wear whatever hat and grade you normally wear. In this case, they would wear AF Capt and AF SrA hats normally (both on and off duty).

Now apply that same principle to the first situation. IMHO, if you are at a CAP activity or wearing a CAP uniform, paintball would NOT be allowed for Cadets. However, if it is a bunch of friends (Cadet and Senior Members alike), not wearing a CAP uniform and this is NOT at a CAP activity, then I would say GO FOR IT! Enjoy the game and don't tell anyone that it was a CAP activity, especially CAP members.

In the above paragraphs all situations are hypothetical...meaning made up.

(Now give me some time to run for cover )

[IceNine]

So to throw a wrench in the well oiled machine, what about squadron's that are dual chartered as Venture Scouting organizations?  I don't know all of their policies but if you want to announce this type of activity that is banned in CAP but is okay in Venturing you would still announce it during a regular meeting.  Besides paintball, this could go along with rappeling and any other nature of "CAP banned activity."

From the CAP perspective, since CAP is considered the "host" of the dual charter, our rules trump theirs, at least in terms of
the CAP Cadets.

Not quite.  The real story is written right at the very end of the 52-16 entry on this topic.  It says if it is not authorized by CAP regs but it is by BSA rules then we have to get a specific insurance rider for that activity through the BSA.

So really it comes down to whether or not the BSA will insure the activity.

[Eclipse]

Raising hypothetical arguments like those above just muddies an already difficult discussion.

There are plenty of mines in the field when you decide to do something CAP would prefer you don't do, whether it "legal" or not, without having to drag in nonsense like convoluted chain-of-command problems.

The only time these things are an issue is when something "bad" or "exciting" happens, whether the ramifications stay internal to CAP, or result in much more real-world "unpleasantness" than you bargained for, would be up to the same judges in this country that allow old women to sue restaurants because coffee is "too hot".

The majority of leaders in the Cadet Program do not have children participating, therefore their only connection to the cadets is through CAP, and thus difficult to seperate, especially for commanders.

I value my service in CAP and the amazing opportunities it affords me, as well as the chance it affords me to bring and grow these opportunities for others.  I also value my family's financial security, and count on the protection CAP at least purports to offer me when things get "bad" or "exciting" (that and the $1m blanket liability policy I carry).

Neither of the above is worth risking for something silly like paintball with cadets.

You guys can make all the "free-will", and "I know better arguments" you want, but I know for a fact that if I play paintball only with my personal friends and family outside of CAP, or at least only with senior members, I'll never have to sit in an IG hearing room explaining how it was "actually ok", nor explain to my family that we have to move because I got sued when Cadet Bago lost an eye and CAP Inc., disavowed me, but I was found liable anyway because I was his commander.

Those of you on the "free-will" train cannot make that statement with certainty, and we all know of situations where members were disciplined and terminated for much less.

For me personally, as a commander, it would also call into question the decision-making ability of those members who would decide they know better. 

Cadets will be cadets, and without a senior member present, it would be very difficult to make the case that it was a CAP activity (assuming that no CAP resources like unit meetings, COV's, email lists, etc. were used), but seniors need to steer clear of this. Period.

[Eclipse]

So to throw a wrench in the well oiled machine, what about squadron's that are dual chartered as Venture Scouting organizations?  I don't know all of their policies but if you want to announce this type of activity that is banned in CAP but is okay in Venturing you would still announce it during a regular meeting.  Besides paintball, this could go along with rappeling and any other nature of "CAP banned activity."

From the CAP perspective, since CAP is considered the "host" of the dual charter, our rules trump theirs, at least in terms of
the CAP Cadets.

Not quite.  The real story is written right at the very end of the 52-16 entry on this topic.  It says if it is not authorized by CAP regs but it is by BSA rules then we have to get a specific insurance rider for that activity through the BSA.

So really it comes down to whether or not the BSA will insure the activity.

I don't agree - if the BSA allows paintball then the Scouts may be able to go off on their own, but the cadets are never going to be allowed to participate as a unit activity.

[IceNine]

If the unit wishes to conduct any activity outside of, or restricted by CAP regulations, the unit commander will obtain Scout liability insurance protection for CAP and the members of the unit from the Scouting Council or Scouting National Headquarters before proceeding.

[Eclipse]

If the unit wishes to conduct any activity outside of, or restricted by CAP regulations, the unit commander will obtain Scout liability insurance protection for CAP and the members of the unit from the Scouting Council or Scouting National Headquarters before proceeding.

Regs?  Like anyone reads those.   

[JoeTomasone]

Can we end this?


If someone has a problem with whatever it is you might do, someone will investigate, you'll tell your side of the story, and someone will decide what, if anything, should be done about it.

If you are able to convince the Commander/IG/whomever that it was not a CAP activity, then it wasn't.   If you can't, then it was.    We can debate it here until we're blue in the.....fingers -- but even if we get a consensus that it's perfectly fine or another that says it's a no-no, that won't matter if the CC/IG says otherwise.

[Always Ready]

The majority of leaders in the Cadet Program do not have children participating, therefore their only connection to the cadets is through CAP, and thus difficult to seperate, especially for commanders.

That is entirely circumstantial, sir. When I was a cadet, approximately half of the seniors members had children active in the Cadet Program. Those senior members included the Testing Officer, AE Officer and the Squadron Commander. That was a squadron with 30-40 senior members total. Most of the senior members were former cadets and had remained friends throughout adulthood. Most of their children grew up together or were close friends. They all, cadets and senior members, go to activities as a non-CAP group...just as friends/family. In my current unit, the DCC and the Testing Officer have children active in the unit. How can you separate that? By that theory, it would be difficult for the Testing Officer to separate the fact he is grading the test of his own child and at the same time remain entirely independent since he is the Testing Officer and his child is a Cadet. But, in the three squadrons that I have been appart of, the main Testing Officer was a parent of at least two (and in some cases more) cadets.