How tough is tough?

Started by stratoflyer, July 04, 2008, 05:23:10 AM

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DC

Inform them of what they did wrong. If they make a habit of it counsel them. Take further action if needed.

CPP says that the punishment should be related to the offense, so be creative. But remember that it cannot be demeaning, so if they fail to salute you you cannot make them salute a trash can repeatedly in public... Just be creative.

MIKE

Be careful with the creativity.
Mike Johnston

stratoflyer

If a whole flight is messing around, is it a violation of the CPPT to engage in some impromptu physical fitness by doing some push-ups? Note: not punishment, but just physical fitness for the whole flight.

Lord knows a little physical activity can bring focus to the mind. Case in point: It is considered a good thing to get up and walk to the back of a room and remain standing during a presentation if the person is falling asleep. I've done it and it helps me stay awake during classes.
"To infinity, and beyond!"

Eduardo Rodriguez, 2LT, CAP

MIKE

Quote from: stratoflyer on August 29, 2008, 12:59:40 AM
If a whole flight is messing around, is it a violation of the CPPT to engage in some impromptu physical fitness by doing some push-ups? Note: not punishment, but just physical fitness for the whole flight.

Heck yes it is.  Look at what you just said.
Mike Johnston

CAP006

Quote from: stratoflyer on August 29, 2008, 12:59:40 AM
If a whole flight is messing around, is it a violation of the CPPT to engage in some impromptu physical fitness by doing some push-ups? Note: not punishment, but just physical fitness for the whole flight.

Ok  honestly, I think that if the whole squadron is messing around and wont listen to anything you say, I think that push-ups are necessary but I understand what you guys are saying. Thanks for all your ideas and regs.
CAP 006 = one away from the Big Shot

C/2nd. Lt. Robert Dahms
Cadet ES Officer
Cadet Comm's Officer
Color Guard Commander
MER-NC-023

FW

Wow, excellent discussion.

Even though I haven't been directly involved with cadets since the '80s, I've been fortunate to have observed hundreds, if not thousands, of cadets over the last couple of decades.  What's good to know is our cadets are still becoming, for the most part, successful adults.  We still  help produce astronauts, blue angels, thunderbirds, Rhodes scholars and professionals in all fields.  Our cadets still are ready to assist in SAR/DR.  Older cadets still mentor younger ones.  Our NCSAs are full and encampments seem to fill up every year.  

Yes, there are many differences in how "we" were treated as cadets "way back when" however, IMHO, so what?  Methods are modified/improved with time and experience.  The hard part is keeping up with the times and keeping the program relevant.

If the "whole flight" is messing around, the problem is with the program, not the flight.  I would be messing around too if all I did was drill every meeting.  Back when I was a sq/cc, I knew I was in trouble when my cadet/cc started complaining about the cadets. It was a signal to get some good programing/training into the schedule.  That was the real "tough" part.  That will never change ;)



IceNine

Quote from: CAP006 on August 29, 2008, 02:18:40 AM
Quote from: stratoflyer on August 29, 2008, 12:59:40 AM
If a whole flight is messing around, is it a violation of the CPPT to engage in some impromptu physical fitness by doing some push-ups? Note: not punishment, but just physical fitness for the whole flight.

Ok  honestly, I think that if the whole squadron is messing around and wont listen to anything you say, I think that push-ups are necessary but I understand what you guys are saying. Thanks for all your ideas and regs.

If this is a problem, Look internally... It may not be a problem with the followers.
"All of the true things that I am about to tell you are shameless lies"

Book of Bokonon
Chapter 4

stratoflyer

Perhaps I should have clarified a bit. First, I said a flight, not the squadron. Second, this flight might be full of cadets looking for more physical activities. Third, what if these guys are good cadets but there's just one of those moments where concentration seems to mind.

Of course if this were the case every meeting, obviously there would be something wrong. But with if several of the regular flight members are missing, and the ones that did show up for the majority feel like messing around a bit.

What I've seen happen is at our squadron we have a policy that if cadets feel weak or in any way about to pass out in formation, they raise their hand and ask permission to sit in the shade until they recover. What happened is now a bunch of cadets are taking advantage of this and as soon as in formation, they ask to be out because they feel 'weak'. No one can say otherwise and they are allowed sit out on opening formations DURING RAISING OF THE FLAG!! And then they look like nothings wrong and you ask them and they say nope, still not feeling better.

Mind you, I have seen a few pass out and throw up from overheating, and that's why we have that policy.

SO, with that said, if we are in the shade, and the temps are cool, and there's no way for them to get out of formation...

Yeah yeah, I know some of you are gonna fir out and say "oh, there's a problem with your CP" or oh, this and that ___ _____ _____ _____

Just remember, I'm a senior member...not DCC and not C/CC or Flt Sgt.
"To infinity, and beyond!"

Eduardo Rodriguez, 2LT, CAP

FW

I understood the post perfectly :D

One of the many laws of nature is: Dealing with teenagers is a real challenge.

As this law is universal and will never change, we must deal with it and obey its fundamental truth in the most humane way allowable under all our other laws and regulations.  Otherwise the paperwork will kill ya. >:D

Once the above is understood, solutions to all these types of problems, at the squadron, will usually work out with a modicum of discussion and direct supervision.  If that doesn't work, suppress the urge to get out the 50 cal. and work it out with the cadets a bit more.  If there is a problem with opening formation, figure out why and fix it.  You can't fix something if you don't know what is broken and, you can't fix it without the proper tools at hand. (that's another law I learned about)

Take the problems in stride,  give them the opportunity to learn from their negative behavior by introducing the concept of accountability and, watch the fun.  ;D

Eclipse

Quote from: stratoflyer on August 30, 2008, 05:38:08 AM
What I've seen happen is at our squadron we have a policy that if cadets feel weak or in any way about to pass out in formation, they raise their hand and ask permission to sit in the shade until they recover. What happened is now a bunch of cadets are taking advantage of this and as soon as in formation, they ask to be out because they feel 'weak'. No one can say otherwise and they are allowed sit out on opening formations DURING RAISING OF THE FLAG!! And then they look like nothings wrong and you ask them and they say nope, still not feeling better.

If you have cadets "Technicolor yawning" or passing out in formation, you're out there too long.

For the goldbrickers this is easy - make sure you have a qualified HSO from the unit on standby - if they feel "faint" have them checked, then send them home, immediately.

Two instances require them to have mom and dad return with a doctor's note before they can participate in any outside activity - if they can't even stand in line for a  few minutes, there must be something very wrong with them.

Let them know they can't game the system and still play when they feel like it.

"That Others May Zoom"

Sleepwalker

   As a Squadron Commander, NO harrassing or hazing is allowed at any time for any reason - that includes ANY pushups for ANY 'punishment' reasons for ANY number of Cadets.  It is not up to debate according to the regs - period.  Any deviation or excuse is is wrong - period.  What is the option then?  I make it VERY clear to all the Cadets that  there is ONE  - and only ONE - option open to me; a 2B.  We talk about their problem, more than once, maybe up to  three times, but I have effectivly 2B'd two Cadets (over the past 4 years) and all the others are quite motivated to behave.  It works VERY well.  The two cases were told that I was going to put in the paperwork to suspend or 2B them and they both quit of thier own accord.  The old saying goes (as a play on words of course) that "sometimes you have to shoot a hostage".  Many other Cadets who were starting to become problems straightened up very quickly when informed that they might be 2B'd. We are very limited on how anyone can respond to problem Cadets, but doing pushups is stricktly forbidden and therefore NOT an option.
   If any of my Cadets tried to make others do pushups as punishment, they might be looking at thier own 2B.  Yet my Cadet staff rarely have any discipline problems. 

                 
A Thiarna, déan trócaire

Ned

^ You are correct that pushups are simply not allowed for punishment reasons at any time, but I cannot agree that the only remedy available to a commander is the drastic remedy of a 2B.

Commanders have a full range of discretion in dealing with violations of regs by members, ranging from simple education on the applicable standard through formal counseling and reprimand and a number of other options before reaching the drastic step of involuntary membership termination.

Just as we tell cadet leaders that there are a number of disciplinary tools available to them in dealing with cadets -- the only notable exception being the "pushup tool" which we have taken out of the toolbox; commanders have a full "toolbox" that has a whole lot of tools in it other than the "2B tool."

Ned Lee
National Cadet Advisor

TEAM SURGE

Your right for the most part a lot of cadets parents are way over to protective!

I think hazing is a flight sergent making a cadet  pump out 50 push ups for no reason, yelling at a cadet for no reason what so ever. It's some cadets get "butt hurt" when somebody raises there voice or corrects them rudely.

I think the program should be a little rough on the cadets. Some cadets just don't get things into their head if your to soft about things. If your a little rough on the cadets eventually it teaches discipline.
C/Msgt. Messman
PCR OR-114
Northwest Coastal Flight

-Eagle Talon 3
-Cascade Falcon X

"You only Live Once"  

jeders

Quote from: TEAM SURGE on September 02, 2008, 08:28:07 PM
Your right for the most part a lot of cadets parents are way over to protective!

I think hazing is a flight sergent making a cadet  pump out 50 push ups for no reason, yelling at a cadet for no reason what so ever. It's some cadets get "butt hurt" when somebody raises there voice or corrects them rudely.

I think the program should be a little rough on the cadets. Some cadets just don't get things into their head if your to soft about things. If your a little rough on the cadets eventually it teaches discipline.

Believe me, you can teach discipline without being rough. And if you are physically or mentally rough, it could easily be construed as hazing or abuse.
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse

ol'fido

Most of the "discipline problems" i've read about in these posts seem to be instances of cadets who weren't trained or told what was expected in the first place. If you look in the dictionary you'll usually find that the first definition of discipline is training and not punishment.  Train them right, set the standard, enforce the standard, and make sure YOU!!!! are meeting the standard yourself and the cadets will normally follow suit.  I have found that when cadets are in error the fault can usually be found in the leadership not the cadet. If the the cadet is there and they want to be a part of the program they will meet the standard or exceed it. If not they will drift off to the local computer blog and be out of your hair.  Make sure you are training them right and not doing what your "ole sarge" did to you or what you saw on some military movie out of Hollywood. This will clear up 99% of your problem.
Lt. Col. Randy L. Mitchell
Historian, Group 1, IL-006

Sleepwalker

Quote from: Ned on September 02, 2008, 06:50:14 PM
^ You are correct that pushups are simply not allowed for punishment reasons at any time, but I cannot agree that the only remedy available to a commander is the drastic remedy of a 2B.

Commanders have a full range of discretion in dealing with violations of regs by members, ranging from simple education on the applicable standard through formal counseling and reprimand and a number of other options before reaching the drastic step of involuntary membership termination.

Just as we tell cadet leaders that there are a number of disciplinary tools available to them in dealing with cadets -- the only notable exception being the "pushup tool" which we have taken out of the toolbox; commanders have a full "toolbox" that has a whole lot of tools in it other than the "2B tool."

Ned Lee
National Cadet Advisor

Ned,

     Didn't I just say I do all those things before a 2B?  I totally agree with you.   I give you the benefit of the doubt by asuming that you did not understand what I was getting at.  By definition, all the "tools" available to us are 'academic' (talking to, reprimand, etc) but the only real "punishment" we can force upon problem Cadets is a 2B (It could be argued that a reduction in rank is also punishment, but in my experience it is the brand new Cadet with one or two stripes that is the problem, and they don't have anything really invested in the rank).  All I am saying is that #1: we CANNOT do push-ups - period.  #2: If you let the Cadets know that since we cannot do pushups, the only real punishment option is a 2B, they "get it".  I make sure that the new Cadets and Parents understand this on Day 1.  This has worked very well with my Squadron and many others that I know of. 
   The other two dozen Cadets that are there to learn are very grateful for the clear boundaries.  As a note, I have had many Cadets who were informed of this when they joined and began to show lax discipline - they have become some of the best Cadets we have without needing to do pushups.       
   We must be doing something right as our little squadron makes several Lts, Majors, and Captains every year, along with three Spaatz Cadets over a year and a half period (a fourth one is testing right now).  We have put four Cadets into service Academies in that time as well.         
A Thiarna, déan trócaire

Ned

Quote from: Sleepwalker on September 03, 2008, 10:46:50 AM

Ned,

     Didn't I just say I do all those things before a 2B?  I totally agree with you.   I give you the benefit of the doubt by asuming that you did not understand what I was getting at. 

Perhaps you are correct that I misunderstood.  But I've gone back over your response, and I'm still a little confused, I guess. 

You said

Quote
As a Squadron Commander, NO harrassing or hazing is allowed at any time for any reason - that includes ANY pushups for ANY 'punishment' reasons for ANY number of Cadets.  [. . .]   What is the option then?  I make it VERY clear to all the Cadets that  there is ONE  - and only ONE - option open to me; a 2B.  [. . .] I have effectivly 2B'd two Cadets (over the past 4 years) and all the others are quite motivated to behave.  It works VERY well. The two cases were told that I was going to put in the paperwork to suspend or 2B them and they both quit of thier own accord.  The old saying goes (as a play on words of course) that "sometimes you have to shoot a hostage".  Many other Cadets who were starting to become problems straightened up very quickly when informed that they might be 2B'd. We are very limited on how anyone can respond to problem



Maybe I'm getting old, but even after re-reading your post it sounds like you hammer anyone giving pushups with a 2B.

I'm not suggesting that a 2B is always inappropriate -- you are the commander and you are the person with the knowledge on the situation.  I'm just a staff guy out to support you in the exercise of your discretion wherever possible.

But every commander needs to know that there are a bunch of other options before reaching for the 2B.

Maybe where we differ is in how we define "punishment."

I use the word "punishment" in the sense of something I do with or to a cadet in attempt to reduce bad behavior.  (Like if I encountered a cadet NCO giving pushups as a punishment.) 

That can cover a lot of ground from things like demotion or delayed promotions to formal and informal counselings, to remedial duties and training related to the deficiency. 

In fact, I don't think of a 2b as "punishment," since it doesn't really address the behavior -- it just gets the perpetrator out of the system. (The threat of a 2B could be a punishment, however.)

I honestly and genuinely appreciate the good work that you are doing for our cadets, and you are certainly right that you "must be doing something right" with your record of accomplishments.


And if I somehow misunderstood your post, I apologize. 

But it sounds as if we agree that there are a whole lot more remedies to this kind of situation than summarily terminating the offender.

Ned Lee

arajca

Ned,
   one of the sections you snipped says
QuoteWe talk about their problem, more than once, maybe up to  three times
Seems to me that Sleepwalker told us the 2B is at the end of escalating consouling sessions, not an immediate response. Although, depending to the problem, it may be an appropriate immediate response.

JoeTomasone

Quote from: Stonewall on August 09, 2008, 02:41:12 PM
Quote from: JoeTomasone on July 04, 2008, 03:06:19 PM
If a recruit feels that he's been harassed, threatened, demeaned, etc, he reports it and the DI in question is immediately relieved pending an investigation. 

Let me guess, you heard someone else say this.  This crap is not true. 


Actually, I read it in a book called "Boot":

http://www.amazon.com/Boot-Daniel-Da-Cruz/dp/0312900600/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1220468243&sr=1-1


It was in a chapter discussing how the DIs viewed the restrictions placed upon them.   It said without ambiguity that a DI accused of mistreating recruits is immediately relieved pending investigation.  In fact, they ask the recruits if anyone has verbally abused them, physically abused them, etc, and then inform them that they can go immediately to the Squadron's CO (IIRC) in the event that they feel they have been abused.   


In another book that follows a Navy SEAL class through BUD/S, but whose title I cannot recall, they discuss how the program has been scaled back in intensity due to external pressure.


stratoflyer

I thought the discussion on the 2b was pretty insightful.

I my university courses, they taught that we should definitely make our expectations clear to every class of what is expected of them. We were also told to make 'positive' rules and not 'negative' rules consisting of a bunch of "don'ts". See, what happens is if you tell a kid not to push a red shiny button, he's darn well gonna push the button.

I'm basically saying I agree that Day 1 of a cadet's training in CAP should include a stern list of expectations of discipline and leadership. Fact is, promotions are nothing more than evaluations on meeting said expectations: not just run-of-the-mill testing and drone answers.

Somewhere in there I also read something that made me wonder: we can be physically and mentally challenging cadets: physically through fitness and mentally through academics. I would say it is how you come across laying out expectations for these things that matters.
"To infinity, and beyond!"

Eduardo Rodriguez, 2LT, CAP