Online Cadet Promotions Program now available in eServices

[captrncap]

Just saw this in Restricted Application.

Does anyone know how this will help?

Why did NHQ develop this?

[CASH172]

Look at the attachment.

[jeders]

It's just another tool in our toolbox.

The interesting thing though is that they updated this app twice within about a 15 minute period to work out some bugs.

[BlackKnight]

Just saw this in Restricted Application.

Does anyone know how this will help?

Why did NHQ develop this?

The on-line cadet promotions application is a necessary prerequisite for on-line leadership and AE testing.

I took a look at the application and (IMHO) it's at best tedious and awkward.  Give it an "A" for attempting to meet the need, but a "D" for human factors usability and I/T efficiency.

We use SIMS and it takes only a few minutes to update cadet testing and promotion records for 30+ cadets. This thing is going to take hours to enter data on testing or PT night for a squadron with a large cadet population.  SIMS has a wonderful spreadsheet style data entry chart that is a much better fit to how we actually use and record the data in a squadron environment.  With that model readily available, why did NHQ reinvent the wheel and make it square instead of round?  I dread having to wait for the screens to refresh for each cadet as several hundred squadrons across the country are simultaneously trying to enter data into this module on Tuesdays and Thursdays, the most common meeting nights.

If they get a SIMS interface going, or they redesign the input screens so that it won't waste any more of my time waiting for the NHQ server to get around to "serving" my mouse click (can you tell I'm a frustrated MIMS and e-services user?) I'll be happy to use it.  But right now it's DOA compared to our current in-house squadron information management tools.

And yes, I sent similar written comments up my chain of command when this thing was first announced. I doubt that anyone at wing HQ forwarded them up to region or NHQ since no one above squadron level is going to have to deal with cadet on-line testing or on-line promotions on a daily basis. The instructions to the DCCs in my wing were clear. All comments had to be sent to the wing DCP. No direct feedback to NHQ was permitted.

[captrncap]

Look at the attachment.

Thank you. I never got an email or anything about this memo.

Where did you get it - if I might ask?

[CASH172]

My SQDN/CC.  I have no idea where he got it from.  I myself couldn't find it on the NHQ page with a quick search. 

[captrncap]

My SQDN/CC.  I have no idea where he got it from.  I myself couldn't find it on the NHQ page with a quick search. 

I would guess that it would be another missing communication from NHQ to Squadrons , since I am a Sq/CC and didn't get this.

[mikeylikey]

Mikey likes it!  Just imagine, no more annoying last minute faxes or mailings to NHQ to process Mitchell awards.  I can track everything now instead of on that green master record.  Then I Can print it out to place in the cadet file as a "hard copy". 

GOOD WORK NHQ!

[Fifinella]

My SQDN/CC.  I have no idea where he got it from.  I myself couldn't find it on the NHQ page with a quick search. 

I would guess that it would be another missing communication from NHQ to Squadrons , since I am a Sq/CC and didn't get this.

Ditto.

[CASH172]

I'm getting info that this memo was sent to all the wing DCPs.  I guess it was up to them on getting this further down the chain. 

[Al Sayre]

I started messing with it last night, entered a couple of my newer Cadets.  Use the ADMINISTRATION link instead of the DATA ENTRY link to put already completed achievements in, and you can just put in the dates from the CAPF 52-X if you like.  Generates a couple of decent reports, and links to their "member search" report and also to Ops Quals for their Curry Award entry for ES. 

Overall, not too bad, it's just going to be painful entering the previous award data for 30-odd Cadets.  Once we get it loaded the first time I suspect it will make life easier.  Now if we could just get a way to track other awards on eServices we could toss a lot of paper...

[BlackKnight]

Mikey likes it!  Just imagine, no more annoying last minute faxes or mailings to NHQ to process Mitchell awards.  I can track everything now instead of on that green master record.  Then I Can print it out to place in the cadet file as a "hard copy". 

Exactly what SIMS has been providing for us for the past 3 or 4 years... 

Yes, the fax of the CAPF-52 forms to NHQ can be a hassle because it's easily forgotten, but NHQ has been really good at fast turnaround on the award postings.  Often I find that if you fax it on a regular workday the award is posted later the same day!

The other aspect that I like about maintaining complete local records (via SIMS) is that NHQ can't "turn off" access to your cadet's records when he doesn't: (a) renew his membership, (b) take OPSEC, (c) complete CPPT, or (d) get a shave by whatever date that NHQ has prescribed.   

[floridacyclist]

Faxing? I thought that was what email was made for. lmmeforms@cap.gov is my friend.

[jimmydeanno]

Question for you SIMS users.  What happens when a member transfers?  Do you export their data and tell them to give it to the next squadron or do you have to do something else?

[Maj Ballard]

I've never had a member transfer out since we've been using SIMS, but I would export their data and burn it to CD to give to the gaining squadron. I'd also print out the master record from SIMS and include it with the member's file.

[jimmydeanno]

So wouldn't this be a huge advantage over SIMS?  You just initiate the member transfer and their record automatically is there? 

[floridacyclist]

I just went in and looked at it and it looks very cool. Sure, it's a little clunky, but it still seems faster than filling forms out and faxing/emailing them in, plus they stay backed up better than if you kept them locally. On the subject of paper backups, you can always do a printout of a member's record showing the items that need to be kept track of and a new electronic record can always be rebuilt from that if need be.

[Maj Ballard]

SIMS doesn't just do promotions. It does LOTS of other things. We'll use both in tandem.

[captrncap]

One thing I noticed is that the Achievement is not tied to Grade.

Even if you put in all the achievements to the Mitchell the cadet is still listed as C/Amn not C/2d Lt.

Oversight on the NHQ part???

Does anyone know if this is tied to OpsQual so if you enter the Curry here, do you also have to enter it there for a 101 to be valid?

[jimmydeanno]

It is tied to OpsQual so when you enter the Curry there it should automatically enter it for OpsQual.

[MIKE]

One thing I noticed is that the Achievement is not tied to Grade.

Even if you put in all the achievements to the Mitchell the cadet is still listed as C/Amn not C/2d Lt.

Oversight on the NHQ part???

It makes it easier to demote as necessary? 

Edit: Just from looking at it quickly auto-promote on achievement completion would create some issues.  It needs to be independent of each other for the purposes of demotion or retention in grade IAW CAPR 52-16.

[Camas]

It is tied to OpsQual so when you enter the Curry there it should automatically enter it for OpsQual.

I'd be curious if Nat'l pulls the plug on the OpsQual-Cadet entry, validation and report permissions.  If the new system carries this information over we probably don't really need it anymore except for those units who, for whatever reason (SIMS or paper forms), elect not to use it.

[Tim Medeiros]

One thing I noticed is that the Achievement is not tied to Grade.

Even if you put in all the achievements to the Mitchell the cadet is still listed as C/Amn not C/2d Lt.

Oversight on the NHQ part???

Does anyone know if this is tied to OpsQual so if you enter the Curry here, do you also have to enter it there for a 101 to be valid?

Thats something I brought up in the first round of testing in October.  "The web control which shows the "C/Amn" is something that will need to be updated in the future.  We didn't program that here at National so I will forward this concern on to them.  I can assure you that I am keeping track of the cadet's current rank." was the response

[arajca]

I gave it a try and it works. It took me about five minutes to get comfortable with the format and switching between SIMS and Eservices, but I am averaging 1 - 1.5 minutes per achievement entry - with scores. If I just do approval dates, less than 45 secs. per achievement.

Of course, this was after Eservices was down for a couple hours this afternoon.

[mikeylikey]

With E-Services we can input the info into the system from anywhere, and we don't have to install software.  That is a huge plus.  Remember this is only a start to what NHQ will be automating on-line.  I hope that in 2  years everything that once had to be done by way of paper will be electronic.  That will greatly improve customer service and make our jobs easier. 

The reports feature gives the end user exactly what we need to quickly scan and go regarding where Cadets stand on promotions.  I also liked the Encampment report.  I would like to see a spot added where we can specify what "other activities" Cadets participated in during the month.

[RickFranz]

We use SIMS in our Squadron and it did not take to long to get all the data and then input it to the new system at NHQ.  I made up a very simple spreadsheet that puts all the data in the order they are asking for it.  If anyone would like a copy just let me know.

[Tubacap]

Anybody know if Vandeleren is going to make this information dump down into SIMS via capwatch export?

[brasda91]

since I have tried and tried to get SIMS running on my squadron laptop to no avail, this may be just what I need.

[Tim Medeiros]

Anybody know if Vandeleren is going to make this information dump down into SIMS via capwatch export?

Has anyone noticed if the information is available in the CAPWATCH download?

[captrncap]

I haven't seen a table in CAPWATCH for promotions so I don't think an export would work without the table.

[BlackKnight]

I've been trying to input historical promotion data for my cadets into the new application.  This is done via the administration module.  Came to my first cadet officer on the list, a C/1st Lt.  So I laboriously enter all the data for her, Curry through the Armstrong, plus some editing on her Mitchell scores.  But that's as far as I can go. The system won't let me enter her info for the Flight Commander and Administrative Officer positions.

If I use the regular data entry module to input the officer promotions the approval dates and time-in-grade will be wrong because it insists on using the current date.  So that's not an option.

Finally found this little gem in the Cadet Promotions FAQ:

=====================
Question: I was trying to add an (any achievement higher than Armstrong) in the administration area.  It does not allow me to go past the Armstrong.  How do I enter this achievement?

Answer: NHQ has made the decision that all achievements past the Armstrong will need to be input by a HQ employee. Please contact NHQ to get these achievements entered.
=====================

Lovely.  I have five cadet officers in my unit that need achievement data input past the Mitchell, and now it appears that I will have to contact NHQ during normal M-F working hours and talk them through what I need done for each one.  I guess someone figured neither the DCCs nor the member-services folks at NHQ have enough to do already...

My previous observations that this new application is wasteful of my limited volunteer time compared to SIMS seem to have been validated.   

[captrncap]

I had to do that also. I made a memo to Sharon Jackson and emailed it to her. It was up the next day.

The other thing is once you keep up on entering the data (i.e. Flight Commander), you can enter it your self in the Data Entry module.

[Major Carrales]

I like it.  If, in time, the features that SIMS had (mass entry et al) can be grafted on.  All the better.

Please, don't fight this.  As has been said, this is a long time in coming.  E-services is universal and now cadet records can transfer with a CADET.  No more "confederated" cadet programs.  Cadets awards are now recorded Nationally in e-services and in the member report, rejoice!!!

[BlackKnight]

...Please, don't fight this.  As has been said, this is a long time in coming. 

Major, I'm not "fighting it". I'm pointing out design/programing flaws that are obvious to anyone who takes an objective look.  Such a look cannot be accomplished while sitting atop the bandwagon. To inspect the axle bearings you have to climb down and pull the wheels off. Why do they squeak so? Did someone forget the grease?  As a squadron I/T officer and unit WSA, and an engineer with over 30-years experience from the birth of the IBM PC to the modern day internet and corporate VPNs, I recognize efficient programming when I see it. I have also developed an intolerance for I/T applications that waste about as much user time as they save. I cannot think of a single valid "CAPR 52-16 / Cadet Programs" reason to have locked the DCCs and unit commanders out of the admin module for cadet officers. The FAQ statement thus begs the conclusion that NHQ doesn't trust commanders at the squadron level to input the cadet officer data properly. But if that is the case why are we allowed to enter it for cadet officers in the normal progression (data entry) module?  And is the progression data history for cadet airmen and NCO's somehow less important than for cadet officers, such that NHQ doesn't care if we screw up the Admin data entry for Phase I and II cadets?

The illogic of this makes me want to raise the BS flag. I suspect they hosed up the programing of the admin module for the cadet officers, but instead of fixing it they pushed forward (Microsoft style) to meet a self-imposed deadline to release the application. Then instead of admitting in the FAQ that the admin module still had a bug or two (we all would have understood and respected that- minor problems are normal in new applications), they cooked up a silly "administrative policy" that all Admin changes above the Armstrong had to be entered by one NHQ staffer- identified by name!  And where is the accompanying guidance on what specific information needs to be supplied to NHQ to enter the cadet officer data?  Exactly what info fields are needed? Do they want it in spreadsheet format? MS Notepad?  CAPF-52's?  CAPF-66's?  SIMS exports?

I attended a professional development course a few months ago where a BIG DEAL was made about how the membership should refrain from pestering NHQ staff over minutia.   Frankly, I respect Ms. Jackson's time too much to bug her with this.  I'll just have to wait until they get their act together and hope for significant improvements in Rev 1 of the application.

[mikeylikey]

^ Or do Officer Promotions the same way we have been....by means of paper and fax.  If they want to waste their time at NHQ inputing data for us, so be it.  When a Cadet reaches the Mitch, I will just stop with e-services at that point and start filling the forms out!

[ADCAPer]

Please, don't fight this. 

Yeah! What's your problem man?  Have you forgotten that you're just a lowly volunteer, so you can't possibly know anything and anything! And besides, the people who really know how to run things (you know, National) don't have the time to be bothered with complaints about a product that they created that only causes more problems and waste more of the free time that you obviously were going to give to CAP in the first place!   

And BlackKnight, I know that you know I'm kidding, hopefully everyone else will too.

[afgeo4]

One thing I noticed is that the Achievement is not tied to Grade.

Even if you put in all the achievements to the Mitchell the cadet is still listed as C/Amn not C/2d Lt.

Oversight on the NHQ part???

Does anyone know if this is tied to OpsQual so if you enter the Curry here, do you also have to enter it there for a 101 to be valid?

Maybe achievement is finished when all requirements are met, but grade is assigned when the cadet is actually promoted? A cadet can be held from promotion due to many things, even if he/she passes all the requirements.

[ctrossen]

If I use the regular data entry module to input the officer promotions the approval dates and time-in-grade will be wrong because it insists on using the current date.  So that's not an option.

Okay, just to be clear, if my DCOC (or whoever is assigned to do so) doesn't get the information entered immediately, and/or I (or whoever I provide the appropriate permissions to) don't get into the system right away to approve, the cadet's online records are going to be incorrect, with no way to change (save have the NHQ staff go in and manually fix it)?

You know, the idea of being able to pull certain historical reports is nice, but I think I'll stick with paper. I like being able to look at the chart on the wall, or pull the binder with our cadet master records.

[Tim Medeiros]

not right away, you can back date information in the data-entry module, its just generally easier using the administration module which is actually best for entering old information quickly

[Major Carrales]

So, where do we begin.

1) E-services in CAP has been fragmented since the start.  SIMS, WMU, local items, e-services proper and development in different eras.  (SIMS...hummm, no one from National or Wing ever really explained that to South Texas.)

2) No one single Electronic Location from which to draw

3) Failure of the general membership to "get on board" with an electronic CAP.

4) People dedicated to "their" way of going things that negates any new ideas.

It seems to be that the following needs to happen...

1) Total revamping of CAP REGS, FORMS and PAMPLETS to "iron out" inconsistencies

2) Totally redesigned e-services to conform to those regs allowing fluid movement between cadet and CAP Officer issues including spec track, operations and promotions.

3) 100% computer access to all CAP members and 100% training for them all!


Not very viable is it.  Until then, what would you have use do?  We go with what exists and don't long for speculative "better ways." 

[brasda91]

its just generally easier using the administration module which is actually best for entering old information quickly

since we don't have direct internet access, I would be using the administration mode most of the time, since I would be updating the info over the next day or two?

[Tim Medeiros]

For entering information for past achievements yes I would recommend using the administration module, you will be able to manually enter the approval date or even just that date.  As well, when it comes up to cadet officer achievements, Ms (or is it Mrs?) Jackson at NHQ is fairly quick about entering that information and nice about it too.

One thing that would help enter information quickly is "share the wealth", have your personnel officer take care of some of the records, your deputy commander for cadets take care of some of the others and you could take on some as well.  Or replace the positions I listed with those you trust and you don't mind having access.  By default CDCs and CCs have access already, theres no sense though in one person doing all of the work, especially in larger squadrons or those whos personnel have alot on their plate.

[flyguy06]

So, does this mean that all a cadet has to do is look online and as soon as he sees he is pormoted, just wear his new rank to the next meeting? Is there no more promotion ceremonies or formations? I think that is a vital part of the military part of the cadet program. To have a Formation and promote the young lad in front of the entire unit.

[Major Carrales]

So, does this mean that all a cadet has to do is look online and as soon as he sees he is pormoted, just wear his new rank to the next meeting? Is there no more promotion ceremonies or formations? I think that is a vital part of the military part of the cadet program. To have a Formation and promote the young lad in front of the entire unit.

No, the ceremony is still an important part.  To me, this greatly assists in that it allows a cadet to see their own matierals online via e-services.  The reports functions also allow me to look at cadet progress at a glance.

[afgeo4]

Just like with seniors, you're only promoted when you're promoted by your commander. Seniors appear promoted on e-services before their new ID card is awarded to them at their promotion, but the true date of promotion is the day you get the card.

Now... we used to have this problem with seniors, but it didn't matter that much because of the long TIG requirements. This may become an issue with this cadet application.

The date of promotion... is it the date that's put into the system or the date the cadet gets officially promoted?

[Maj Ballard]

Just like with seniors, you're only promoted when you're promoted by your commander. Seniors appear promoted on e-services before their new ID card is awarded to them at their promotion, but the true date of promotion is the day you get the card.

Now... we used to have this problem with seniors, but it didn't matter that much because of the long TIG requirements. This may become an issue with this cadet application.

The date of promotion... is it the date that's put into the system or the date the cadet gets officially promoted?

I've never been at a squadron where the new ID card is presented to people at promotion ceremonies. If anything, it's sort of handed to the guy (or lady) in the middle of a meeting, weeks after the promotion was earned... and long after a ceremony has taken place (or not).

CAPR 35-5 is a little ambiguous, in that it says that authority to wear the new grade on the uniform needs both the signed promotion document AND a "properly annotated" ID card. However, it also says that the promotion will be effective on the date the promotion request is validated by National Headquarters.

We have a situation in our squadron where a gentleman has been waiting on his new ID card for about 4 months. NHQ says they sent it. We haven't received it. Lots of phone calls have ensued, to no avail - yet. His online record shows him promoted... I say let him wear the bars.

There are some occasions where a cadet earns a promotion, the file is signed, etc. but there may not be a promotion ceremony for several weeks (for a number of reasons). The cadet earned the promotion on the date the commander approved it, not the date he/she is "pinned."

In fact, CAPR 52-16 states, "As cadets complete each achievement and their squadron commander (or deputy commander for cadets) signs their CAPF 52 series form, they earn a new grade (except for achievements 8, 9, 11, 12, 13, 15 or 16, which confer no promotion in grade)." The cadet's date of promotion is the date the form is signed (or now entered online), not the date of any ceremony.

Ceremonies, for both seniors and cadets, are not "official promotions." They are recognitions of an achievement that may have "officially" occurred some time earlier.

[Tim Medeiros]

If I recall, it is the date entered into the system as the approved date.  Even for seniors, otherwise my promotion which was dated 25 Jan 2007 (according to my national record and the returned CAPF2) would not have been until mid February which was when my card arrived in the mail and my commander decided "oh, this arrived for you", heck, I would have been promoted to SM and Capt on the very same date and my membership was transferred to senior on 19 Jan 2007.

2-4. Cadet Promotions.
a. Earning Grade. As cadets complete each achievement and their squadron commander (or deputy commander for cadets) signs their CAPF 52 series form, they earn a new grade (except for achievements 8, 9, 11, 12, 13, 15 or 16, which confer no promotion in grade). By signing the cadet's CAPF 52, the commander is attesting to the cadet's ability to assume the next grade and accept increased responsibilities. Cadets do not officially earn milestone awards and the promotions that accompany them until the award is posted to e-Services at www.cap.gov.

So with this having the ability to take place of the CAPF 52 series, once approved in this application, it is official, which is why there is a disapproval function with specific reasoning.

[arajca]

When someone besides the commander enters the information, like a TCO, the commander has to approve it. The dissaproved with comments is to make commanders think about disapproving and to provide a record of it. It removes - if the unit uses this function - the removing a letter of reprimand once the cadet has met the requirements for it. (Had a couple like that in my unit.) If a cadet sees they've been disapproved for a promotion, they'll be able to see why.

As I understand it, using the online cadet promotion system is optional - for now.

Additionally, when online cadet testing starts, the approve/dissaprove function will remain with the commander (or designee) and will not be automatic once the tests are passed.

[flyguy06]

Arent new ID's sent to the member?

[jeders]

When a senior promotes, there new ID card with there new grade on it is sent to the commander for issuance.

[arajca]

Arent new ID's sent to the member?

Seniors, yes. Cadets, no.

Think about it, if cadets received a new membership card everytime the promoted, National would be constantly mailing them out. Using 20k cadets promoting twice a year (minimum requirement) that's 40k cards. Divide 40000 by 255 (mailing days, excluding weekends and holidays) you get 157 card sent out per day. Figuring $.20 each mailing cost equals $8000 in postage. Add $0.50 cost of card for $20,000. I think we can find better ways to spend $28,000 per year. That does not include the staff labor to process the cards.

[mikeylikey]

We should just move to a blank card that we stick our rank on by way of stickers.  You know when you promote, you just break out the original sticker package and make yourself a Major or if you were deceitful, you could be a Colonel in your first year.

[ADCAPer]

Until then, what would you have use do?  We go with what exists and don't long for speculative "better ways." 

Well, I'm not sure exactly what to do about this problem, but advising every one to "Please, don't fight this" as you did earlier is most definitely not the answer. If things aren't right then they need to be addressed. If you happen to think the program is great then that's fine, but because some people don't agree with you doesn't mean that they're fighting anything.

However, In the event that anyone wants to fight the CAP system, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Fighting to get things changed is an Air Force tradition, in fact, it's our oldest tradition.  I wonder what men like Billy, Henry, Carl and Ira would think of your statement? Good thing they didn't agree, otherwise we might all be wearing Army green and be some type of Infantry Auxiliary!

[davidsinn]

When a senior promotes, there new ID card with there new grade on it is sent to the commander for issuance.

Not true. Mine come straight to me. Both promotions I've had since I've been in have been that way.

[MIKE]

I think it's a commanders option, have had it both was in the two units I have been in.

[BlackKnight]

So, does this mean that all a cadet has to do is look online and as soon as he sees he is pormoted, just wear his new rank to the next meeting? Is there no more promotion ceremonies or formations? I think that is a vital part of the military part of the cadet program. To have a Formation and promote the young lad in front of the entire unit.

This has been the case with the milestone awards in recent years. Per CAPR 52-16 the cadet isn't entitled to wear the new grade until the award has been posted on e-services.  Once the award has been posted by NHQ they can start wearing the new grade.  For the formal promotion ceremonies we have the cadet temporarily put his old grade back on so it can be replaced with the new grade during the pinning ceremony. 

I have found that many cadets prefer to wait for the formal ceremony to wear their new grade, unless (a) they're cadet basics, or (b) they're going soon to an event outside the squadron such as an encampment.

[RiverAux]

If your unit regularly does promotion ceremonies, then it is best to wait until then.  Unfortunately, not all of them do it and if you're in one of them you just need to wait for the card. 

[SarDragon]

When a senior promotes, there new ID card with there new grade on it is sent to the commander for issuance.

More correctly, it is sent to the unit address, which mail may or may not be picked up by the unit commander. I, as the Admin weenie, had the mailbox key in my units.

[Major Carrales]

Well, I'm not sure exactly what to do about this problem, but advising every one to "Please, don't fight this" as you did earlier is most definitely not the answer.

Oh please spare me this.  All I am saying is that CAP Cadet Promotions now seem to be listed in e-services.  That is a long time in coming.

It is not mine nor national's fault that people have been entering CAP Cadet data into SIMS and personal made electronic materials and now seem to want to fight this.

Your second point makes several fallacies.  Billy Mitchell was court marshalled and became an "I TOLD YOU SO."  He championed an idea before its time, eventually times changed.   He was court marshalled for comments he made against admirals. 

Henry "Hap" Arnold built the Army Air Corps, again, the time for that was correct.  Spaatz et al were parts of new systems, on the edge...none of these people were for halting progress of clinging to OLD SCHOOL.

Now, by the numbers...

If things aren't right then they need to be addressed. If you happen to think the program is great then that's fine, but because some people don't agree with you doesn't mean that they're fighting anything.

Oh, well, what does it mean then?  I think the program is along time in coming.  I think some people had the chutzpah to create what they did to address a problem a long time in coming.  Instead of working to fix it, several people jumped to "combat" mode.  Would not the better thing to have done was contact CAP's tech people and offer suggestions and expertise, instead of coming on this forum and complain?

However, In the event that anyone wants to fight the CAP system, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

We are talking about Cadet Promotions here, not the whole CAP.  Fighting because CAP NHQ would like for cadet programs to be documented on line is a ridiculous waste of energy.  With the promotions electronically recorded, transfers are all the more easy.  Cadets can see when they are promoting next.  It can be see from any INTERNET ready computer in the WORLD.

Fighting to get things changed is an Air Force tradition, in fact, it's our oldest tradition.

No, our oldest tradition is service to the community, State and Nation. 

I wonder what men like Billy, Henry, Carl and Ira would think of your statement?

I don't think they would have an opinion of it since what I said was in reference to on-line cadet Promotions.  I don't think they would support the current system where cadet files are kept exclusively LOCAL or in fragmented systems.  I think they would like the idea of CAP personnel information of thsi sort being kept nationally.  Especially in a day when on line computer systems can allow these matieral to be index and searched in nano-seconds.

[Galahad]

It is not mine nor national's fault that people have been entering CAP Cadet data into SIMS and personal made electronic materials and now seem to want to fight this.

1.  SIMS has been listed on the Cadet Programs "Best Practices" page at cap.gov for about  4 years now.
http://www.cap.gov/visitors/members/cadet_programs/index.cfm?nodeID=6742&audienceID=4.  That sure looks like a pretty strong endorsement by CAP National.  I would appreciate it if you would refrain from posting comments that suggest those of us who have long been ahead of this I/T wave by using SIMS have somehow gone renegade and are not with the program.

2.  I have found what I believe may be an error in the on-line promotions for the Wright Brothers Award. When you enter the promotion data for the WB (as I did for one of my cadets last week), the data module asks only for the CPFT date, the Leadership test date, and the leadership test score.  After you enter that info the module automatically sends the WB applicant to the DCC or unit commander for approval.  If approval is given, the on-line promotion system apparently grants the WB award immediately, without verifying the required 2-months time in grade and attendance at a moral leadership session.  This surprised me because at the time I entered the data the cadet had not satisfied time-in-grade, yet the system was eager to make the award. One approval click would have done it, and the resultant dates would have shown as less that 2 months between the Feik and the WB award. SIMS would have denied the promotion given similar input. 

It appears that the logic for the WB on-line promotions module may have been designed using the old version of CAPR 52-16, which was superseded by the Oct 2006 update to CAPR 52-16.  SIMS was updated within a month to be compatible with the new regulation. 

[Tim Medeiros]

I would strongly recommend reporting that issue to the Help Desk.  Did you do this via Administration module or Data-Entry module?  That may be a factor.  It should be noted that according to page 28 of CAPR 52-16 (as well as 2-5.g of the same reg) there isn't a ML requirement for the WB.

[ADCAPer]

Oh please spare me this. 

Well, the statement I was referring to was when you said that "Until then, what would you have use do?  We go with what exists and don't long for speculative "better ways."  (and I assume that you are in the camp that believes Billy Mitchell did more harm than good through his antics. That's subject to a lot of debate, but overall I'd say his "speculation" was eventually proven right, even though he got his point across the wrong way)

So what's wrong with a little speculating? It sounds like there are people on here commenting on this topic who have some valid points. Now if you're comfortable sitting back and going with the flow, that's fine. But you need to learn to accept the fact that everyone isn't content to just sit there and accept things that just aren't working right, and they are just as entitled to their thoughts, comment and opinions as you are. The fact that National cranks out a program doesn't automatically mean that it's the best way to do things. And who cares if it can be used from any internet capable computer in the world if you're in a unit that doesn't even have internet service?

From what I can tell, your premise is that as long as you agree with everything National does, and you want to sing their praises here then that's okay, otherwise, it's best to just set back and keep quiet.  Give me a break, there's nothing wrong with people coming here to complain.

[Galahad]

I would strongly recommend reporting that issue to the Help Desk.  Did you do this via Administration module or Data-Entry module?  That may be a factor.  It should be noted that according to page 28 of CAPR 52-16 (as well as 2-5.g of the same reg) there isn't a ML requirement for the WB.

Thank you Capt.  You are absolutely correct. ML attendance is not required for the milestone awards. All of my cadets up for milestone awards get ML automatically because the time-in-grade requirement combined with active participation causes them to attend one or more ML sessions. But upon inspection, the reg does not require ML for the milestone awards, nor does the SIMS promotion module.  So the only issue is the time-in-grade check.

The WB promotion I referenced was completed through the regular data entry module. I had updated the cadet's records through the Feik using the Admin module, then switched over to the data module to enter the WB award data.

[Major Carrales]

Oh please spare me this. 

Well, the statement I was referring to was when you said that "Until then, what would you have use do?  We go with what exists and don't long for speculative "better ways."  (and I assume that you are in the camp that believes Billy Mitchell did more harm than good through his antics. That's subject to a lot of debate, but overall I'd say his "speculation" was eventually proven right, even though he got his point across the wrong way)

So what's wrong with a little speculating? It sounds like there are people on here commenting on this topic who have some valid points. Now if you're comfortable sitting back and going with the flow, that's fine. But you need to learn to accept the fact that everyone isn't content to just sit there and accept things that just aren't working right, and they are just as entitled to their thoughts, comment and opinions as you are. The fact that National cranks out a program doesn't automatically mean that it's the best way to do things. And who cares if it can be used from any internet capable computer in the world if you're in a unit that doesn't even have internet service?

From what I can tell, your premise is that as long as you agree with everything National does, and you want to sing their praises here then that's okay, otherwise, it's best to just set back and keep quiet.  Give me a break, there's nothing wrong with people coming here to complain.

Bravo, "spoken" with the same logic and grace as Lee J. Cobb's character at the end of the film "12 Angry Men."

[ADCAPer]

Bravo, "spoken" with the same logic and grace as Lee J. Cobb's character at the end of the film "12 Angry Men."

WHAT! I am so offended!

Well, actually I'm not, it's hard to be offended by someone who's  level of initiative  is limited to advising others not to "fight" anything that they personally support. 

[JayT]

Bravo, "spoken" with the same logic and grace as Lee J. Cobb's character at the end of the film "12 Angry Men."

WHAT! I am so offended!

Well, actually I'm not, it's hard to be offended by someone who's  level of initiative  is limited to advising others not to "fight" anything that they personally support. 

What? Was that an dig at him?

[jeders]

I was wondering if anyone else has had problems accessing cadets in their unit recently.

I tried to go into the records of one of my cadets to enter some info, and it said that the selected member was not a cadet. It would let me select any of the other cadets, but not that one that I needed to access. The only difference between him and the other cadets is that right now he is the only one that has completed the Curry achievement.

Has anyone had any problems like this? Any ideas?

[BlackKnight]

^ It doesn't sound like the problem you're having, but on April 1st I was able to confirm my suspicion that if a cadet's membership expires so does the squadron's access to his on-line promotion records.  Definitely makes you want to go back to the CAPF-66.  At least it doesn't have disappearing ink. 

[Tim Medeiros]

If I recall correctly, the information is still kept on file in the database, just no need to list non-members.

[Tubacap]

My realistic eutopia has the CAPWatch download with all the cadet achievements, so the majority of data entry is done there, but then can be stored in SIMS so that it is part of the unit "Permanent Record".

BlackKnight, when the cadet renewed, did the information come back online?

[Major Carrales]

^ It doesn't sound like the problem you're having, but on April 1st I was able to confirm my suspicion that if a cadet's membership expires so does the squadron's access to his on-line promotion records.  Definitely makes you want to go back to the CAPF-66.  At least it doesn't have disappearing ink. 

Paper records must still be kept for just such occasion.

[Tim Medeiros]

One thing you could do to aid that is print out the member search report after each month and/or promotion.

[BlackKnight]

My realistic eutopia has the CAPWatch download with all the cadet achievements, so the majority of data entry is done there, but then can be stored in SIMS so that it is part of the unit "Permanent Record".

BlackKnight, when the cadet renewed, did the information come back online?

In this particular case the cadet chose not to renew (reasons unrelated to CAP).  I expect the info would have been instantly available as soon as the renewal was completed.   

It's only a minor irritant, and yet another example of why we use SIMS for our permanent records.  I just think it odd that they programed the online promotions module so that the cadet records are instantly unavailable upon membership expiration instead of making them accessible during the 90-day grace period.  It's another clue that the developers perhaps don't yet completely understand how we'll be using this data in the field.

I had actually predicted this would be a problem before the online promotion module came out. Thus I was watching to see what would happen when a cadet's membership expired. I had sent my review comments on the white paper proposal through the requested review channels, but who knows whether my comments ever made it to NHQ. 

[Tim Medeiros]

I just think it odd that they programed the online promotions module so that the cadet records are instantly unavailable upon membership expiration instead of making them accessible during the 90-day grace period.  It's another clue that the developers perhaps don't yet completely understand how we'll be using this data in the field.

If you look, the entire cadet record becomes non-viewable to non-employees upon membership non-renewal, this applies to seniors as well, and every other membership type.  The system only shows a member status of "ACTIVE".  Its not a matter of the restricted application weeding it out, its the database itself. 

Maybe you could send a request up to the eServices help desk about making a report in the Cadet Promotions Restricted Application to show the promotion records of 90 expired cadets, they may or may not go with it depending on what their superiors say. 

The Help Desk is one of the few, but better, ways that those in the field can express to the developers directly what is needed.  I personally have made use of it 27 separate times over the last year, they have always been courteous and approachable, just give them the reasoning and they'll either ask for more info or if it requires approval they'll send it up their chain to get approval to work on it, otherwise they'll give you a response of whether or not they'll be able to work on it generally within a few working days.  Of course, as always your experience may vary depending on who is assigned your question, my stuff always seems to be assigned to 1 person.

[Moonfly]

Anyone have good info/experience with this new program?  I've only been with CAP 7 months.  Some of the cadets in the squadron use E-service to check their progress, and are disappointed their info is not kept current.  I'm told progress is tracked on paper, and that using E-service is too difficult.

Is National really committed to this new process?  Are we, as a squadron, behind the curve?

Thanks

[jimmydeanno]

Anyone have good info/experience with this new program?  I've only been with CAP 7 months.  Some of the cadets in the squadron use E-service to check their progress, and are disappointed their info is not kept current.  I'm told progress is tracked on paper, and that using E-service is too difficult.

Is National really committed to this new process?  Are we, as a squadron, behind the curve?

Thanks

The online promotions work great for our squadron.  We recently had a Mitchell recipient and within a few days her certificate arrived without having to mail anything to NHQ.  It is an easy to use process and with online testing (hopefully) rolling out shortly it will make tracking progress that much easier.

There is some initial legwork that needs to be done to get everyone up to speed, but once it is caught up it is extrememly easy and quick to use. 

I helped with some of the beta testing before it rolled out and was pleased to see that it has been adopted rather enthusiastically.  I hope that your squadron opts to utilize this program.

[IceNine]

I have 2 squadrons that are using this program (out of 4).  The 2 that are using it only complain that it takes more time then paper. BUT, there have been a few transfer's and this has proven an invaluable tool for this process.

You will get frustrated with this system when you attempt to input up to several years worth of achievements but once the program is current you will quickly learn to love it.