Why the Navy and Marines are not recognizing our cadets?

[Flying Pig]

One of my former cadets enlisted into the USMC about 4 years ago. He was a C/TSgt and an outstanding leader in the squadron. He was also in the Young Marines. At enlistment, he received E-3 Lance Corporal due to both. A letter of recommendation was requested by his recruited and attached to the paperwork (which I saw myself).

He is now with the 2nd MARDIV out of Camp Lejeune. A Sgt I believe.

He may have graduated boot camp as an E-3 but he didn't get it in his enlistment contract.  I've known prior service NCO's who reenlisted in the Marines and graduated boot camp as E-2's. 

[Flying Pig]

I know that NJROTC offers E-3 eligibility to all former cadets with at least 3 years of courses in all branches except the USMC. They only offer up to E-2 because E-3 is Lance Corporal which is considered an NCO. When I was considering enlisting, I got my documentation letter from my Senior Naval Science Instructor. The last paragraph stated that the final promotion decision rests with the gaining service. From what I've heard, Marines don't receive any advaced grade until after recruit training, however I do believe that they still get the higher pay, but I may be wrong on that part. My friend who's currently in Iraq, he did 4 years NJROTC as did I, and he said that he was PFC from the get-go, even during Basic, advanced pay and everything [EDIT: but he's in the Army]

E-3 is not an NCO in the Marines.  Corporal E-4 is the first rank of NCO.  When I went to boot camp, I was an E-2.  I got paid the rank of an E-2 but didnt get to wear it until graduation day.  As far as being meritoriously promoted to E-3 in boot camp, you cant skip ranks in the Marines.  If you didnt come into Boot Camp as an E-2, you cant graduate an E-3. 

[SarDragon]

In reality, the only promotion you're going to get is to E-2 and that's 6 months of service away, so it's not that big of a deal.

I don't know many 18 or 19 yo's that think $973 is insignificant. FWIW, I don't think $973 is insignificant.

[afgeo4]

In reality, the only promotion you're going to get is to E-2 and that's 6 months of service away, so it's not that big of a deal.

I don't know many 18 or 19 yo's that think $973 is insignificant. FWIW, I don't think $973 is insignificant.

According to DFAS, basic pay (without allowances) beginning 01Jan08 is (2 years or less in service):

E-2 $1502.70
E-3 $1580.10

That's just $78.60/month (gross) for 6 months lost in basic pay wages by enlisting at E-2 instead of E-3.

Basic Allowance for Housing (RC/Transient) as of 01Jan08 (without dependents) if the person lives off base, which most E-2/E-3 do not.

E-2 $354.60
E-3 $436.80

That's a difference of $82.20/month tax free.

So you see, the difference really isn't that much and only for 6 months. For someone who wants to be a Marine, this is and should be a non-issue.

[SarDragon]

In reality, the only promotion you're going to get is to E-2 and that's 6 months of service away, so it's not that big of a deal.

I don't know many 18 or 19 yo's that think $973 is insignificant. FWIW, I don't think $973 is insignificant.

According to DFAS, basic pay (without allowances) beginning 01Jan08 is (2 years or less in service):

E-2 $1502.70
E-3 $1580.10

That's just $78.60/month (gross) for 6 months lost in basic pay wages by enlisting at E-2 instead of E-3.

Basic Allowance for Housing (RC/Transient) as of 01Jan08 (without dependents) if the person lives off base, which most E-2/E-3 do not.

E-2 $354.60
E-3 $436.80

That's a difference of $82.20/month tax free.

So you see, the difference really isn't that much and only for 6 months. For someone who wants to be a Marine, this is and should be a non-issue.

OOPS! I used E-1 and E-2 figures. Still, $471.60 is no small chunk of change.

[mikeylikey]

^ 6 Months is the minimum time in service for promotion to E-3.  As a Commander I can hold up said promotions, it is not automatic.  I held a soldier at E-2 for 15 months.  

[afgeo4]

^ 6 Months is the minimum time in service for promotion to E-3.  As a Commander I can hold up said promotions, it is not automatic.  I held a soldier at E-2 for 15 months. 

Sure, but what would you estimate the percentage of those hold-ups would be?

[mikeylikey]

^ Small percentage.  I was only trying to get across that things are not always as automatic as people say here.

[afgeo4]

^ Small percentage.  I was only trying to get across that things are not always as automatic as people say here.

They're not as automatic as they say anywhere actually. Life has its own pulse usually.

[Flying Pig]

The services offer advanced grade to get folks they really want.   So USMC doesn't really want our guys.  No big deal - that's their prerogative.  One of the advantages of being a small service is that you don't need to recruit as many. You can be pickier.

As others have said, the Mitchell is nice, but our program doesn't come close to ensuring that all Mitchell's have the same level of training and competence.  Our squadrons are just run too differently, and with too little central oversight, for that kind of standardized product.

It's not that they don't want our cadets. It's that they want young men/women to join the Sea Cadets. Choices were made. In reality, the only promotion you're going to get is to E-2 and that's 6 months of service away, so it's not that big of a deal. I think the services that offer E-3 promotions should be explored more.

I would hope that most of our cadets end up wanting to join the Air Force, but I know that's not the case unfortunately. The bonus of enlistment at higher grade is a great honor and shouldn't be given away to just anyone. I know our cadets are some of the best our youth has to offer, but our training really IS more geared toward USAF/USCG work.

When I joined the Marines, I had my Mitchell and knew the Air Force and Army would give me E-3.  I didnt choose the Marines for the extra pay.  I hope the Marines never offer E3 to CAP or JROTC. If your joining the Marines for pay and college money, you'd be better off going to another service.  E2 is a decent advancement for having a Mitchell.   If the cadet is really on the ball, they will get E3 as the Honor Man when they graduate boot camp.

[DNall]

^ 6 Months is the minimum time in service for promotion to E-3.  As a Commander I can hold up said promotions, it is not automatic.  I held a soldier at E-2 for 15 months.

Why so long? I might hold someone, but I couldn't see more than 6mos unless they were catching an article. And E-2 to E-3 is pretty meaningless. They're still a private with no authority. SPC & CPL are where the game gets played, after that it's NCO boards. I'm your junior at this, but I like to trust NCOs with that kind of thing. I wouldn't want to interfere unless I think they're screwing someone for personal reasons or something.

Far as the marines... it's a smaller service, so promotions are slow & lower grades are slightly more meaningful. They can do what they want/need to do. Our job in CAP is to make sure Mitchell level cadets are consistently at an E-3 or greater level in terms of gen mil skills, professionalism, fitness, etc. The services will recognize our output accordingly, as long as we keep up our end.

[Flying Pig]

Marine is capitalized.   

[DNall]

You know if I had that kind of attention to detail I'd be a freakin millionaire astronaut pro baseball player, as opposed to in the Army, which IS capitalized thank you very much.    

[nesagsar]

3 years ago my best friend joined the Marines and got nothing even though he was a Mitchel cadet. It didnt hurt too bad because he got a meritorious promotion at graduation and then another soon after to Lance Corporal.

[NavLT]

I recently had a cadet go into the corps.  He had to apply for advanced paygrade that would be determined by the commander.  Nothing automatic but possible.

I would guess that the automatic paygrade proved to be too easy and some applicants were better than others when they arrived at boot camp.  I have seen some pretty serious proffesional and behavioral differences in C/2LTs that would make the Navy/Marine perpspective on automatic advancement justified.

I would also offer that the difference between E-1 and E-3 when it comes to raking a parkinglot.......should be everyone just in deserves to rake the parking lot. I earned my way from E-1 to E-6 then to O-3E and if they are looking to use that automatic E-3 to get out of a little work they are going to get hammered by the Military.

V/R
LT J.

[mikeylikey]

I earned my way from E-1 to E-6 then to O-3E and if they are looking to use that automatic E-3 to get out of a little work they are going to get hammered by the Military.

Oh man another O-3E.   :clap:

As far as raking a parking lot I was just telling one of our fellow CAPTALKERS how I just sent 3 Soldiers out this morning to rake the gravel lot.  Guess its not just me who finds that a good way to get the attention of people who are late for formation, or "forget" to sign out on the weekends.  And you are right, E-1, and E-3 carry little difference in what they will do or not do in the unit, aside from their duties. 

As far as the Marine Corps granting advanced grade, they will do it if the recruiter is aware that CAP service is a item they can use.  If you push hard enough, E-3 is possible, but not the norm. 

Between E-3 and E-2, its only a difference of $78.00 OR $936.00 a year.  Not much, but when you are making $1509.90 at E-2 per month, that is like working an extra 3 weeks. 

Now if they really wanted to give us a benefit, they would allow those with the Mitchell in at O-2 instead of O-1.  That would help some of us    The best and worst time for an Officer is being a 2LT.  If we could skip that altogether!.  MY happiest day was when I got to pin on that silver bar, the world seemed to take me more seriously then.  The second happiest was when I got that second silver bar, or kind of sad too, knowing my responsibilities had just increased by 100%.  But, with the bars, I can sit here and type on CAPTALK and no one knows I am doing anything but work   

[cnitas]

But, with the bars, I can sit here and type on CAPTALK and no one knows I am doing anything but work   

Sounds to me like the Col. needs to send you out to rake the lot with your troops.