Why the Navy and Marines are not recognizing our cadets?

[ironputts]

Thanks BlackKnight! I was told that regulation by the Marine recruiter I mentioned but couldnt find it through normal browser searches. I found the section from the url you gave me and and it looks like this:

MARINE CORPS ORDER P1100.72B

TABLE 4-2
_____________________________________________________________________________
APPOINTMENT TO A GRADE OTHER THAN PRIVATE UPON ENLISTMENT.
_____________________________________________________________________________
NOTE 7. Completion of 2 years or more at a service academy satisfies this requirement.
NOTE 8. The individual making the referrals will be eligible for the higher appointment only if the referrals enlist into the DEP or directly into the Marine Corps or SMCR (including awaiting IADT) prior to the individual's
graduation from recruit training.
NOTE 9. The individual must present full documentation, e.g., official Boy/Girl Scout certificates awarding Eagle/Gold Award status, Naval Sea Cadet Corps promotion/service certificates, etc.

The recruiter was explaining we are covered under note seven and not under note nine. The problem is CAP is not a service academy. I believe we were under nine at one time and dropped recently. Thus the confusion for the recruiters and why our cadets are not getting the E-2 rank. With this I can look more educated to the Marine recruiter. I will pursuit this and see what I can find out and will post it for all to see. I would like to post this results so all CAP seniors and cadets knows this and ask your recommendation where I should do this.

Just another point I mentioned earlier about our cadets making sure everything they are expecting is on their contract is also mentioned in this document:

MARINE CORPS ORDER P1100.72B

1105. RECRUITING ETHICS.
c. Under no circumstances shall recruiting personnel directly or indirectly characterize life in the Marine Corps as a 1-5 life of ease and pleasure. Instead, our life should be depicted as a life that offers men and women a military career where technical training, education, and other rewards are available for those who work and desire to make their own way. The Marine Corps is a challenging career. If properly presented, this should be sufficient attraction for young men and women of the desired character.
d. Recruiting personnel must reinforce in the mind of each applicant that only those promises actually written into the enlistment contract will be kept.

[RiverAux]

I think it hardly appropriate that Boy Scouts or Girl Scouts get advanced consideration but CAP does not. 

[PHall]

I think it hardly appropriate that Boy Scouts or Girl Scouts get advanced consideration but CAP does not. 

They had better representation at HQ USMC.

[Eclipse]

1105. RECRUITING ETHICS.
c. Under no circumstances shall recruiting personnel directly or indirectly characterize life in the Marine Corps as a 1-5 life of ease and pleasure.

What's a 1-5 life?  Should that be 9-5?

[MIKE]

1 to 5 seems about right... get up after 10, brunch, then go to work in the afternoon. 

[stillamarine]

1105. RECRUITING ETHICS.
c. Under no circumstances shall recruiting personnel directly or indirectly characterize life in the Marine Corps as a 1-5 life of ease and pleasure.

What's a 1-5 life?  Should that be 9-5?

We were comparing it to the hours of AF recruiters

[Dragoon]

The services offer advanced grade to get folks they really want.   So USMC doesn't really want our guys.  No big deal - that's their prerogative.  One of the advantages of being a small service is that you don't need to recruit as many. You can be pickier.

As others have said, the Mitchell is nice, but our program doesn't come close to ensuring that all Mitchell's have the same level of training and competence.  Our squadrons are just run too differently, and with too little central oversight, for that kind of standardized product.

[Falshrmjgr]

I remember the Army used to give E4 for 4 Years JROTC too.  (Of course you had to pass the SQT, but they got rid of the SQT right before Iwent in....)

[Cecil DP]

PS - In the 80+ members I put into stripes or bars, no more than FIVE were even Mitchell or better.  CAP is not as big a contributor to the USAF as we might suspect, though I can only speak for my own experiences.

5  out of 80 comes out to 6.25% that seems to add up to about 13,000 members of the Air Force based on current strength of 200,000. That is significant.

Tags - MIKE

[ironputts]

"I would like to post this results so all CAP seniors and cadets knows this and ask your recommendation where I should do this."


I mentioned this in my previous post but I meant it towards anyone looking at this subject. I got the info for all branches and getting info via us mail from the coast guard to finish it. I would like to post the results but also get it out to as many CAP folks as I can. I would like everyone to give me recommendations where to post this and if you can explain how to get this to your recommendation I would appreciate it.

[Monty]

PS - In the 80+ members I put into stripes or bars, no more than FIVE were even Mitchell or better.  CAP is not as big a contributor to the USAF as we might suspect, though I can only speak for my own experiences.

5  out of 80 comes out to 6.25% that seems to add up to about 13,000 members of the Air Force based on current strength of 200,000. That is significant.

Tags - MIKE

Well, friend...I'm compelled to make mention that no more than five were even Mitchell recipients (as you quoted me).  5 CAP folks...1 was a Mitchell cadet.

And well, my tallies were absolutely in no way indicative of the mean or median of all Air Force recruiters' combined or yearly amounts of members joined.... 

Lastly, bear in mind that CAP folks were more receptive to me, on account that they knew I was a "dual-hatter" USAF & CAP sort, unlike most Air Force recruiters.

[Psicorp]

MARINE CORPS ORDER P1100.72B

TABLE 4-2
_____________________________________________________________________________
APPOINTMENT TO A GRADE OTHER THAN PRIVATE UPON ENLISTMENT.
_____________________________________________________________________________
NOTE 7. Completion of 2 years or more at a service academy satisfies this requirement.
NOTE 8. The individual making the referrals will be eligible for the higher appointment only if the referrals enlist into the DEP or directly into the Marine Corps or SMCR (including awaiting IADT) prior to the individual's
graduation from recruit training.
NOTE 9. The individual must present full documentation, e.g., official Boy/Girl Scout certificates awarding Eagle/Gold Award status, Naval Sea Cadet Corps promotion/service certificates, etc.

The recruiter was explaining we are covered under note seven and not under note nine. The problem is CAP is not a service academy. I believe we were under nine at one time and dropped recently. Thus the confusion for the recruiters and why our cadets are not getting the E-2 rank. With this I can look more educated to the Marine recruiter. I will pursuit this and see what I can find out and will post it for all to see. I would like to post this results so all CAP seniors and cadets knows this and ask your recommendation where I should do this.

You'd think we'd be covered under Note 9 with the "etc" clause.

Personally I think the UCMC is a unique branch of service.  I came close to enlisting in it.  The recruiter told me that I would have to gain 20 lbs and run a mile for her before she'd sign me up. She also mentioned something about book reports too, which I still think is funny the way she phrased it.    I was more concerned with getting into the specific field I was interested in than any advance in grade, unfortunately that's something else that recruiters cannot guarentee.

[ironputts]

MARINE CORPS ORDER P1100.72B

TABLE 4-2
_____________________________________________________________________________
APPOINTMENT TO A GRADE OTHER THAN PRIVATE UPON ENLISTMENT.
_____________________________________________________________________________
NOTE 7. Completion of 2 years or more at a service academy satisfies this requirement.
NOTE 8. The individual making the referrals will be eligible for the higher appointment only if the referrals enlist into the DEP or directly into the Marine Corps or SMCR (including awaiting IADT) prior to the individual's
graduation from recruit training.
NOTE 9. The individual must present full documentation, e.g., official Boy/Girl Scout certificates awarding Eagle/Gold Award status, Naval Sea Cadet Corps promotion/service certificates, etc.

The recruiter was explaining we are covered under note seven and not under note nine. The problem is CAP is not a service academy. I believe we were under nine at one time and dropped recently. Thus the confusion for the recruiters and why our cadets are not getting the E-2 rank. With this I can look more educated to the Marine recruiter. I will pursuit this and see what I can find out and will post it for all to see. I would like to post this results so all CAP seniors and cadets knows this and ask your recommendation where I should do this.

You'd think we'd be covered under Note 9 with the "etc" clause.

Personally I think the UCMC is a unique branch of service.  I came close to enlisting in it.  The recruiter told me that I would have to gain 20 lbs and run a mile for her before she'd sign me up. She also mentioned something about book reports too, which I still think is funny the way she phrased it.    I was more concerned with getting into the specific field I was interested in than any advance in grade, unfortunately that's something else that recruiters cannot guarentee.

Good point and one the Marine recruiter mentioned. I told him if they are going to mention the Girl Scouts by name so should they name CAP! He is looking into it as we write and will get back to me. He joked and said they like the Girl Scouts because they sell good cookies! Anyone have any suggestions who to pass this info to??

[ironputts]

OK. Here is the DEFINITIVE list of ranks issued to our cadets after fulfilling requirments for enlisting. The only branch that doesnt name Civil Air Patrol by name is the Marine Corps! I am working with a local Marine MSG recruiter to find out why we are omitted. I need to apologize to the Navy as they do mention us! Here you go and if anyone knows how we can get this info to all our cadets and seniors I would appreciate it! I guess it is time to close this POST!

Civil Air Patrol Cadet initial enlistment rank appointments by branch
As of December 1, 2007
Air Force
AFRSI36-2001 1 APRIL 2005
2.22. Enlistment Grade Determination.
Table 2.1. Enlistment Grade Determination and Factors.
8. Was awarded the Billy Mitchell, Amelia Earhart, or Carl Spaatz award or has a letter from AP/AF/TTHE, Maxwell AFB AL, certifying successful completion of award requirements
Rank: Airman First Class (A1C).

Army
AR 601–210 • 7 June 2007
Section II. Enlistment Periods and Pay Grades
2–18. Enlistment pay grades for personnel without prior service (10) Has completed all phase II requirements of the Air Force Civil Air Patrol and has been awarded the Billy Mitchell Award may enlist at any time at pay grade PV2.

Coast Guard
COMDTINST M1100-2E
2.E.6.b Prior Education or training
4 U.S. Air Force Civil Air Patrol (CAP)
a. Applicants with two or more years of experience are eligible to enlist in pay grade E-2
b. Applicants with three years of experience or cadets who receive the General Billy Mitchell Award are eligible for to enlist in the pay grade pf E-3.


Marine Corps
MARINE CORPS ORDER P1100.72B
APPOINTMENT TO A GRADE OTHER THAN PRIVATE UPON ENLISTMENT.
NOTE 7. Completion of 2 years or more at a service academy satisfies this requirement.
NOTE 9. The individual must present full documentation, e.g., official Boy/Girl Scout certificates awarding Eagle/Gold Award status, Naval Sea Cadet Corps promotion/service certificates, etc.
Rank: E2

Navy
COMNAVCRUITCOMINST 1130.8G – VOLUME I
042002. CRITERIA FOR ADVANCED PAYGRADE
d. Civil Air Patrol. Applicants who provide documentation of having received the Civil Air Patrol Billy Mitchell Award may be enlisted in pay grade E2.

[afgeo4]

One of my former cadets enlisted into the USMC about 4 years ago. He was a C/TSgt and an outstanding leader in the squadron. He was also in the Young Marines. At enlistment, he received E-3 Lance Corporal due to both. A letter of recommendation was requested by his recruited and attached to the paperwork (which I saw myself).

He is now with the 2nd MARDIV out of Camp Lejeune. A Sgt I believe.

[M.Glisson003]

I joined the Marine Corps just over 7 months ago and I am going to boot camp as a E-2. The only way to get to E-3 is to be meritoriously promoted to E-3 while in boot camp.

[afgeo4]

At least you were lucky enough to run into a recruiter that told you they didn't still give them E-3. One of my friends was told by his recruiter that he would get either E-2 or E-3 because of the length of time he had been active as a CAP cadet, the recruiter even had our squadron fill out paperwork for it. He didn't find out until the end of boot camp that it wasn't true.

Whatever is stated in your enlistment contract will happen (the contract is signed by the recruit at time of enlistment). If the contract states that the recruit is E-1, then he/she is E-1, not E-3. It doesn't matter what anyone says. It has to be in black on white for it to be true.

[Brad]

I know that NJROTC offers E-3 eligibility to all former cadets with at least 3 years of courses in all branches except the USMC. They only offer up to E-2 because E-3 is Lance Corporal which is considered an NCO. When I was considering enlisting, I got my documentation letter from my Senior Naval Science Instructor. The last paragraph stated that the final promotion decision rests with the gaining service. From what I've heard, Marines don't receive any advaced grade until after recruit training, however I do believe that they still get the higher pay, but I may be wrong on that part. My friend who's currently in Iraq, he did 4 years NJROTC as did I, and he said that he was PFC from the get-go, even during Basic, advanced pay and everything [EDIT: but he's in the Army]

[stillamarine]

I know that NJROTC offers E-3 eligibility to all former cadets with at least 3 years of courses in all branches except the USMC. They only offer up to E-2 because E-3 is Lance Corporal which is considered an NCO. When I was considering enlisting, I got my documentation letter from my Senior Naval Science Instructor. The last paragraph stated that the final promotion decision rests with the gaining service. From what I've heard, Marines don't receive any advaced grade until after recruit training, however I do believe that they still get the higher pay, but I may be wrong on that part. My friend who's currently in Iraq, he did 4 years NJROTC as did I, and he said that he was PFC from the get-go, even during Basic, advanced pay and everything.

LCPL isn't an NCO but is considered a leadership position, as stated earlier in the thread. If awaded E-2 for some reason, you'll receive the pay while in Recruit Training but won't put on your rank until sometime around graduation. Heck in the old days before MARPAT you didn't get to iron on your EGA until right before graduation. (EGA= Eagle Globe and Anchor ironed on the upper left  blouse pocket. MARPAT has it embroidered on)

[afgeo4]

The services offer advanced grade to get folks they really want.   So USMC doesn't really want our guys.  No big deal - that's their prerogative.  One of the advantages of being a small service is that you don't need to recruit as many. You can be pickier.

As others have said, the Mitchell is nice, but our program doesn't come close to ensuring that all Mitchell's have the same level of training and competence.  Our squadrons are just run too differently, and with too little central oversight, for that kind of standardized product.

It's not that they don't want our cadets. It's that they want young men/women to join the Sea Cadets. Choices were made. In reality, the only promotion you're going to get is to E-2 and that's 6 months of service away, so it's not that big of a deal. I think the services that offer E-3 promotions should be explored more.

I would hope that most of our cadets end up wanting to join the Air Force, but I know that's not the case unfortunately. The bonus of enlistment at higher grade is a great honor and shouldn't be given away to just anyone. I know our cadets are some of the best our youth has to offer, but our training really IS more geared toward USAF/USCG work.