Why the Navy and Marines are not recognizing our cadets?

[SarDragon]

From the point of view of an E-1 or E-3, that's a fair chunk of change. Some things never seem to change - the officer ignorance of junior enlisted pay being one.

[Eclipse]

I agree with Monty,

Just because you are "eligible" for a rank doesnt mean you "have" to get.

Plus, i dont see what all the fuss is about. Whats the difference in pay between an E-1 and an E-3? About $70 (just a guess).

I am not an elitest. I was enlisted for 11 years as an 11B soldier, so btdt.

Then you would know rank is everything.  If you are an E-1/2, I will come to you before I go to the E-3 to rake the gravel parking lot outside the battalion HQ.  Coming in as an E-3 means you have a slight jump on your peers.  And you are making around $330.00 more than an E-1 per month and at the end of the year that adds up to almost $4,000.00

I am sure everyone can use $4,000 more a year right?

Not only that, you're now ahead in the line with your peers - might not mean much today, but 10 years from now, when you are competing for some sweet post, it could be all the difference in the world.  My understanding is that an e-3 places you as much as 18 months ahead of peers who walk in the door and get nothing for prior service or education.

[flyguy06]

From the point of view of an E-1 or E-3, that's a fair chunk of change. Some things never seem to change - the officer ignorance of junior enlisted pay being one.

I am not ignorant first of all. I have been an E-3 in my life second of all. You know nothing about my background so you have no idea what I know about not having enough money in my life thrid of all. Thank you

[flyguy06]

I agree with Monty,

Just because you are "eligible" for a rank doesnt mean you "have" to get.

Plus, i dont see what all the fuss is about. Whats the difference in pay between an E-1 and an E-3? About $70 (just a guess).

I am not an elitest. I was enlisted for 11 years as an 11B soldier, so btdt.

By the time they reach E6 it all evens out

Then you would know rank is everything.  If you are an E-1/2, I will come to you before I go to the E-3 to rake the gravel parking lot outside the battalion HQ.  Coming in as an E-3 means you have a slight jump on your peers.  And you are making around $330.00 more than an E-1 per month and at the end of the year that adds up to almost $4,000.00

I am sure everyone can use $4,000 more a year right?

Not only that, you're now ahead in the line with your peers - might not mean much today, but 10 years from now, when you are competing for some sweet post, it could be all the difference in the world.  My understanding is that an e-3 places you as much as 18 months ahead of peers who walk in the door and get nothing for prior service or education.

[mikeylikey]

From the point of view of an E-1 or E-3, that's a fair chunk of change. Some things never seem to change - the officer ignorance of junior enlisted pay being one.

I am not ignorant first of all. I have been an E-3 in my life second of all. You know nothing about my background so you have no idea what I know about not having enough money in my life thrid of all. Thank you

Was this directed at me?  I made general statements about money, not about anyone's personal financial situations.  If not directed at me, sorry, I did not take offense, I was just confused by your comment. 

[SarDragon]

From the point of view of an E-1 or E-3, that's a fair chunk of change. Some things never seem to change - the officer ignorance of junior enlisted pay being one.

I am not ignorant first of all. I have been an E-3 in my life second of all. You know nothing about my background so you have no idea what I know about not having enough money in my life thrid of all. Thank you

Flyguy, I wasn't referring to your post, but rather mikeylikey's. Sorry for the confusion.

And, now that I have reread that whole exchange, I may have misspoken, so let's just move along past it.

[BlackKnight]

Just because you are "eligible" for a rank doesnt mean you "have" to get.

True.

Plus, i dont see what all the fuss is about. Whats the difference in pay between an E-1 and an E-3? About $70 (just a guess).

The fuss is that CAP makes a big deal about the fact that the cadet Mitchell Award gets a cadet an advanced enlistment slot (E-3 in the USAF and Coast Guard, E-2 in the Army/Navy/Marines).  I mention that nearly every month to cadets and parents. If that isn't true anymore then CAP NHQ needs to adjust their brochures and websites accordingly.  If it is true, then we apparently have some service recruiters who don't know their own regulations.

Why are we spending time talking about trying to get someone on the sevice as an E-3? We should be trying to encourage our cadets to go to college and become officers if they have military aspirations.

Agree 100%.  But not every Mitchell cadet has the grades or drive to get into college.  I know a 20 year-old cadet in a nearby squadron who has stayed in CAP as a cadet for an extra two years so he could earn his Mitchell to get the advanced grade enlistment in the Army or National Guard.  He's going to be pretty PO'd if that turns out to be false advertising.

[flyguy06]

Just because you are "eligible" for a rank doesnt mean you "have" to get.

True.

Plus, i dont see what all the fuss is about. Whats the difference in pay between an E-1 and an E-3? About $70 (just a guess).

The fuss is that CAP makes a big deal about the fact that the cadet Mitchell Award gets a cadet an advanced enlistment slot (E-3 in the USAF and Coast Guard, E-2 in the Army/Navy/Marines).  I mention that nearly every month to cadets and parents. If that isn't true anymore then CAP NHQ needs to adjust their brochures and websites accordingly.  If it is true, then we apparently have some service recruiters who don't know their own regulations.

Why are we spending time talking about trying to get someone on the sevice as an E-3? We should be trying to encourage our cadets to go to college and become officers if they have military aspirations.

Agree 100%.  But not every Mitchell cadet has the grades or drive to get into college.  I know a 20 year-old cadet in a nearby squadron who has stayed in CAP as a cadet for an extra two years so he could earn his Mitchell to get the advanced grade enlistment in the Army or National Guard.  He's going to be pretty PO'd if that turns out to be false advertising.

But thats my point. Its not false advertising. You can become an E-3 if you have a Mitchell.  You can "if" the servce chooses you to. Its like like when someone is eligible for a scholorship. They can meet the criteria but they still have to be selected for it. Its not automatic just because they meet the criteria.
And you say some cadets dont have the drive to go to college. Well,if they have the drive to work and get the itchell or Spaatz then why wouldnt they have the drive to go to college?

[DNall]

You know, and the couple of you real military officers on here should know this (respectfully), not everyone is cut out to be an officer. It's not about being smart or educated. You can't tell me an E-3 PJ is unmotivated, or even you average 11B for that matter. And freakin AF NCOs have masters degrees & junk.

Being an officer is a huge responsibility. It's not just intelligence, education, drive to succeed, leadership, etc. Just for starters, it's taking people's lives in your hands. Not everyone wants that responsibility. Not everyone that does want it can handle it.

If you are in an impoverished inner-city area Sq encouraging kids with military aspirations to consider something like college & officership when coming from their background they may never have even thought such a thing was possible, well that's great. On the whole that's going to be very good advice, but at the same time, it's a very small segment of society that qualifies for the military at all, a micro segment of that who serve, and a minscule part of that who reach the standard of officership. Even then we all know an "officer" or two who seem to have slipped through the cracks, and we certainly know NCOs who could just as easily be CEOs.


Far as the E-3 thing for Navy/Marine. That's news to me. I can see not adding it, but I can't understand why it'd be purposefully dropped. That said, long before I go talking to them about changing it back, I think I'd spend some time in long hard ocnsideration about the state of our program.

Can you honestly say that w/ 12yos now in the program, with lawyers dictating our kinder gentler "not the real military" approach... can you say that consistently at every Sq all across the country that at the mitchell level that kid sight unseen has achieved a leadership/discipline/etc level on par with an E-3? Can you say that the quality control in our program is on par with being able to do that? Can you say we train our cadet programs officers to a level that they are even remotely capable of mentoring cadet officers/NCOs to deliver a program to Amn that brings them to that level? Can you at least say we're meeting all those benchmarks in the min time (18mos) to Mitchell that another kid would get in 4 full years of JROTC?

When you can answer yes to all of that, then hell yeah I say we raise holy hell to get it changed back & more. Until then, I'd lean toward letting the Navy/Marines run their house the way they see fit & not worrying so much about it till we get our own house in order... respectfully.

[flyguy06]

DNall,
You made assumptions of my comments. being an officer has nothing to do with intelligence. Like you said, there are some NCO's that have more education than some Majors.

People always automatically ssume when you talk about military officer, you are trying to say they are better. Thats not what I am saying.

i am saying to encourage our young people to be the as good as they can. You are right. I do encourage youths to be officers. Why? I fell if you can go to college and get the four year degree why not reap the full advantages of it. A capt makes a lot more money than a Staff Sergeant. So make as much as you can.

I respect all service members (even the non infantry ones) 

[flyguy06]

When you can answer yes to all of that, then hell yeah I say we raise holy hell to get it changed back & more. Until then, I'd lean toward letting the Navy/Marines run their house the way they see fit & not worrying so much about it till we get our own house in order... respectfully.

I agree totally with this

[Monty]

Why are we spending time talking about trying to get someone on the sevice as an E-3? We should be trying to encourage our cadets to go to college and become officers if they have military aspirations.

I'd agree with your "college" portion to a large extent but inherently disagree with the emphasis on commissioning.

Sorry, but in my experience, there are some officers that never should have commissioned but rather, should have enlisted; there are several enlisted that should have stayed the course and got commissioned.

In my estimation, there is too much emphasis on officers being the end-all and be-all of success by those who are VERY well-intentioned, but a bit behind the power curve in terms of objective analysis when correlating personality and interest with application and appropriateness.

It's arguably a sad state of affairs when so much emphasis is placed upon commissioning in our cadet program, only to see a mediocre cadet not get any entry into any commissioning program and well, he/she elects to not even consider enlisting because such a thing is "beneath him or her."  (God forbid he/she learned such a thing overtly, but generally, enlistment is not held as much in high esteem as commissioning, within the cadet program.)

Sad to see so many non-accepted USAFA applicants and rejected AFROTC scholarship types from CAP sit for 8 years in community college when their bonafide great talents could have been fatastically honed, honorably, in the armed forces as a future (potential) CMSAF.

That's all I'm going to say on the matter.  (This coming from a guy who enlisted first and then competed for - and earned - a commissioning opportunity [the USAF's "POC-ERP," specifically.])

[BlackKnight]

Does the U.S. Army and the U.S. Navy also interpret their regulations as "suggestions" rather than "requirements"? I know the average CAP wing commander ignores regulations whenever it suits but I would hope that our regular service personnel pay more attention to their regulations and procedures. The highlighted quotes below seem pretty clear. If you have the CAP Mitchell Award (and meet the other requirement for US Army or Navy enlistment) you start out at E-2 instead of E-1.  Ditto for the USAF, ANG. and the Coast Guard, except they give E-3 for the Mitchell (see below). 

I'll leave it as an exercise for the CAPTalk membership to locate the latest recruiting instruction for the U.S. Marine Corps and see whether they offer the same deal.   

From AR 601-210 Sec. 2-18(10), 7 JUN 07: http://www.army.mil/usapa/epubs/pdf/r601_210.pdf

a. The following explains who may enlist and when and at what pay grade. An applicant who—
(10) Has completed all phase II requirements of the Air Force Civil Air Patrol and has been awarded the Billy Mitchell Award may enlist at any time at pay grade PV2.

The Recruiting Regulation for the US Navy is COMNAVCRUITCOMINST 1130.8G. It's hard to find online but here's the link: http://www.npc.navy.mil/NR/rdonlyres/0B0046BD-4567-44D6-89D3-1C002EB792EC/0/11308G_Chp4_CH_1.pdf 

From COMNAVCRUITCOMINST 1130.8G Chapter 4, Section 20, page 3:

d. Civil Air Patrol. Applicants who provide documentation of having received the Civil Air Patrol Billy Mitchell Award may be enlisted in paygrade E2.

From the CAP website: http://level2.cap.gov/index.cfm?nodeID=5355

Milestone Award Cadets & the U.S. Military
US Air Force Benefits.   Cadets who earn the Billy Mitchell Award may qualify to enter the Air Force at an advanced pay grade upon enlistment (see AFRS 36-2001, paragraph 2.22: http://www.e-publishing.af.mil/shared/media/epubs/AFRSI36-2001.pdf.).  Mitchell cadets who enroll in AFROTC may also receive credit for the CAP experience (see AFOTSI 36-2011, paragraph 2.5.6). 

US Army Benefits.  Cadets who earn the Billy Mitchell Award may qualify to enter the Army at an advanced pay grade.  See AR 601-210, paragraph 2-20J for details.

and from the CAP Cadet Programs homepage: http://www.cap.gov/visitors/members/cadet_programs/

Coast Guard Enlistment Incentives.  As of 22 June 2006 the US Coast Guard matches USAF incentives for cadets that have earned the Billy Mitchell Award (enlistment as E-3).
From the CG Recruiting Manual:   
4. U.S. Air Force Civil Air Patrol (CAP).   
a. Applicants with two years of experience are eligible to enlist in pay grade E-2.   
b. Applicants with three years of experience or cadets who receive the General Billy Mitchell Award are eligible to enlist in the pay grade of E-3. 24 Apr 07

[Flying Pig]

The Marines reserve PFC promotions for those who recruit at east two people to join with them prior to leaving for boot camp, and for recognition in boot camp.  I earned my PFC by recruiting two of my buddies to join.  ( I really did...it wasnt a hook up from the recruiter) I had my Mitchell also.  Although I am not oppossed to it, Thats the way the Marines are.  They dont award promotions for things that were done outside of the Corps.  You want PFC, you recruit two people and/or do good in boot camp and youll earn it. I can gaurantee you the Marines will NEVER award E-3 for the Mitchell.  Thats pretty much reserved for the honor grads. As far as CAP cadets joining the Marines, I imagine a few more would if they offered PFC for the Mitchell, but it says something to me when a cadet still decides to join the Marines as an E-1 knowing the other services are offering E-3. 

As far as being an officer and going to college.  The last thing I wanted to do was go to college.  I graduated high school on Thursday and left for bootcamp on Sat morning.  The last thing from my mind was college.  I wanted to be an Infantry Marine and that exactly what I did.  When it was over...I got out.  So saying we should push every cadet to go to college and become officers is a little much.  I know several cadets who went enlisted and then later became officers.  And many more who never joined at all.  I was in CAP with a cadet who wanted to be enlisted, then become an officer specifically.  He specifically wanted to be a Mustang (prior enlisted officer).  He made it to Corporal, became an officer and is now a Major.

[RiverAux]

I was waiting for someone to inject some facts into this -- thanks BlackKnight for showing that the Navy does in fact recognize the Mitchell. 

Anyone have access to the relevant Marine document to show once and for all whether it is the case for them too?

[BlackKnight]

The Marines reserve PFC promotions for those who recruit at east two people to join with them prior to leaving for boot camp, and for recognition in boot camp.

According to this url http://usmilitary.about.com/od/marines/l/bladvrank.htm your information is incomplete. If you can point to a regulation that states that the USMC limits PFC only to those participating in the "buddy system" program, please do so.

Apparently there are a number of civilian achievements that the USMC will award E-2 for, including: 2 or more years of JROTC or ROTC, Boy Scout Eagle Award or Girl Scout Gold Award, 24 months service time or cadet grade E-3 in the Navy Sea Cadet Program, or achieving the grade of E-5 in the Young Marines.

I have not been able to find the above summarized in a single USMC document online. The USMC recruiting website is almost all photos and flash without any references to regulations or legal documents. (Targeting their anticipated audience perhaps?!  ) 

I did find the Young Marines E-5 connection here.

3.b. Advanced Pavgrade Enlistment. Members of the YM who are designated as an E-5 may be enlisted in the Marine Corps in an advanced paygrade of E-2. All YM will be required to complete regular Marine Corps recruit training upon enlistment.

Unfortunately, it does appear from my research so far that the USMC is the only U.S. military service that values Girl Scouts more than CAP Cadet Officers!   

Evidently they have different recruiting priorities... 

Edit: Fixed way-long URL that broke page -TA

[ironputts]

   Thanks everyone for your input. The basis for this subject was I received confirmation from 3 or more recruiters from the Navy and Marine Corps that Civil Air Patrol Cadets receive no rank enhancement joining their branch. I was hoping I would receive support from you whether this is true or not. I now have formal documentation that I will talk to a Navy recruiter and get a firm confirmation.
   Since I started this I was visited by a Marine Corps senior nco recruiter who stated the Marines give Cap cadets with 2 Years of experience an E-2 rank.  I asked him to confirm this and I am still waiting. I will inform everyone about this.
   I really didnt want to go down the road of who should or should not get rank when entering the branch our cadets join. All I wanted is to know what qualifications they are looking for and inform our cadets. I would then want our cadets to be sure everything they were promised MUST be on their contract or there is no promise but only talk.
   FYI, my past experience I have had 60% of my cadets enter Marine Corps, 25% join Air Force, the remaining percentage to the remaining branches. Keep the faith!

[BlackKnight]

   Since I started this I was visited by a Marine Corps senior nco recruiter who stated the Marines give Cap cadets with 2 Years of experience an E-2 rank.  I asked him to confirm this and I am still waiting. I will inform everyone about this.

Please keep us posted on what you eventually find out. About three years ago I had a USMC recruiter in full dress uniform sit in my dining room and tell my son (a CAP Cadet Officer) pretty much the same thing, the only difference was that he tied the E-2 to the Mitchell Award instead of 2 years experience in CAP. 

[stillamarine]

If you look up MCO P1100.72B and look at figure 4-2 on page 4-39 and it will show you exactly what can be used to be give rank other than Private.  Nothing about CAP is on there, I find this odd because like I said I received it maybe I slipped by the cracks I guess. Maybe it's been dropped since I joined 12 years ago (OMG it will be 13 years in 2 months  ). Also I word to note, NOBODY gets anything other than E-2 unless they are enlisting to join the Marine Corps Band (the HQMC one not a Regimental Band), then surprisingly enough they get SSGT after Recruit Training and MCT, but that is extremely hard to come by.

Listen I absolutely agree that CAP Cadets should be ELIGIBLE for E-2 upon enlistment into my beloved Corps. Matter of fact, in my experience, CAP Cadets are better qualified for the advanced rank in the Corps than many ROTC cadets and dang near all Eagle Scouts etc. But, how do we change that MCO? Heck give me a petition to sign and send to my Congressman I will but I'm just an old former Marine Sgt  and I don't have a whole lotta pull on my own! 

[BlackKnight]

If you look up MCO P1100.72B and look at figure 4-2 on page 4-39 and it will show you exactly what can be used to be give rank other than Private. 

Thank you!  I had found MCO P1100.72B in my previous web searches but Table 4-2 was buried so deep in the document that I missed it.  This completes our survey... 

For convenience, here's a direct link:
https://www.marines.usmc.mil/RS/CRC/MPPM.pdf

Note that the latest revision date appears to be 10 DEC 97, so those recruiters who reportedly are claiming that "CAP used to be in there but was removed in the last couple of years"  are apparently blowing smoke. One could make a reasonable argument that the CAP Mitchell Award is equivalent to 2 years of Junior ROTC (especially if compared with the JROTC programs in my town), and as a former Eagle Scout I will affirm that the Mitchell is certainly on par with the BSA Eagle.  But if credit for CAP is not specifically called out in the USMC regulations our cadets don't have much negotiating leverage.