Why the Navy and Marines are not recognizing our cadets?

[ironputts]

I am the DCC for my squadron and have been with CAP for many years. When I started out I researched and found all the military branches gave an advance rank to our CAP cadets if they completed to the Mitchell award. I was recently asked by one of my cadets, who received his Mitchell award, what his opportunities were and I researched again. I found out the Air Force and Army would give him an E-3 rank but the Navy and Marines give nothing. I talked to many Marine recruiters and asked why and they said it was higher authority that changed it in the last couple of years. Can anyone give me your opinions and advise who we correspond with to change this poor decision. I was talking to one Marine recruiter and he was a former CAP cadet. He said it was a shame he didnt get the advance rank but he still wanted to be a Marine. We work hard with these kids, and all cadets that I have given the Mitchell to, were squared away and deserve the recogntion by our military!

[stillamarine]

Very interesting, I know I received it, but that was almost 13 years ago. Hope you find out something

[mikeylikey]

I am not sure if that is true.  I have cadets who received E-3 just 2 years ago when joining the Marines.  In fact the Coast Guard will give E-3 without a Cadet getting the Mitchell.  They will even give it to Adults who are also CAP members.

[Cobra1597]

At least you were lucky enough to run into a recruiter that told you they didn't still give them E-3. One of my friends was told by his recruiter that he would get either E-2 or E-3 because of the length of time he had been active as a CAP cadet, the recruiter even had our squadron fill out paperwork for it. He didn't find out until the end of boot camp that it wasn't true.

[ironputts]

 Re: Why the Navy and Marines are not recognizing our cadets?
« Reply #2 on: Today at 04:39:54 PM »   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"I am not sure if that is true.  I have cadets who received E-3 just 2 years ago when joining the Marines.  In fact the Coast Guard will give E-3 without a Cadet getting the Mitchell.  They will even give it to Adults who are also CAP members."



Rest assured this information is correct and confirmed by several Marine recruiters. As you are, I was surprised but the fact that several of my cadets are going into the Marines as E-1 is a fact and I would like help to fix this wrong!

[ironputts]

"At least you were lucky enough to run into a recruiter that told you they didn't still give them E-3. One of my friends was told by his recruiter that he would get either E-2 or E-3 because of the length of time he had been active as a CAP cadet, the recruiter even had our squadron fill out paperwork for it. He didn't find out until the end of boot camp that it wasn't true."

I am sorry to hear this information. I tell my cadets to have their parents review the contract with the recruiters and I try help them also. I told them that is the only "contract" that is binding if there are issues later in their military careers. Many times words are said butif it isnt in the contract it wont happen. Tahnks for this information and hopefully others will learn from it. Of course many cadets dont ask any advice and I have received calls after they left boot camp saying they were lied to. I can only say to them deal with it and use the system to better their lives!

[Monty]

PREFACE: I'm not saying my pondering below is what I ever did, but merely food for thought.

Rumor has it that I served quite a while as an AF Active Duty recruiter.  With that rumor in mind, there may be a mix-up in terms of what "eligible" means and *must* means in terms of little Johnny/Sally walking in and demanding they want "X, Y, Z" because they have "1, 2, 3."

I could have had an Eagle Scout recipient, who also happened to have more than 44 semester units of college, the desire to serve six years, a Mitchell Award, a letter from his AFJROTC High School instructor, and had single-handedly saved the entire planet from space robots...........with one incredibly huge ego on his/her sleeve.  Said person is ELIGIBLE for advanced grade, but I'd not go to prison if I (or any person in the AF processing line) opted to leave off E-3.

It's hard to see but joining the service is like any job application process; you screw up the interview and the company doesn't have to give somebody anything; even the job itself.

Don't always be so sure that "Mr. Mitchell #89,546" recipient is AF material...copping an "attitude of entitlement" sits real poorly with the Air Force and could make people who draft AF contracts start "forgetting" stuff.

Likely, an "attitude of entitlement" sits even more poorly with the Marines if they've formally removed any advanced grade consideration. 

It's not inappropriate to ask why the USMC and whomever else may have removed the advanced grade consideration...but it's also not inappropriate for us to question if our Mitchell recipients are (still) the best fit for advanced grade consideration.

Fair's fair. 

[stillamarine]

I am not sure if that is true.  I have cadets who received E-3 just 2 years ago when joining the Marines.  In fact the Coast Guard will give E-3 without a Cadet getting the Mitchell.  They will even give it to Adults who are also CAP members.

Also I can guarantee you they did not receive E-3. No one receives E-3 off the bat in the Marine Corps, the most advanced you can enlist at is E-2. E-3 (Lance Corporal) is a leadership position and is not given away.

I went to boot with a guy that had 4 years Marine JROTC and a Bachelor Degree and on graduation day he was PFC just like me.

[mikeylikey]

I am not sure if that is true.  I have cadets who received E-3 just 2 years ago when joining the Marines.  In fact the Coast Guard will give E-3 without a Cadet getting the Mitchell.  They will even give it to Adults who are also CAP members.

Also I can guarantee you they did not receive E-3. No one receives E-3 off the bat in the Marine Corps, the most advanced you can enlist at is E-2. E-3 (Lance Corporal) is a leadership position and is not given away.

I went to boot with a guy that had 4 years Marine JROTC and a Bachelor Degree and on graduation day he was PFC just like me.

I just read the marine recruiting manuals off their website.......they do too give E-3 away.  Eagle scout, College credits etc.

[mikeylikey]

Don't always be so sure that "Mr. Mitchell #89,546" recipient is AF material...copping an "attitude of entitlement" sits real poorly with the Air Force and could make people who draft AF contracts start "forgetting" stuff.
Fair's fair. 

I understand what you are saying, but it the end you should be ethical about it.  Your comment adds to the negative view some people have of recruiters. 

I had a "career counselor" give me a speech while I was sitting in a mall eating a few years back, and he lied out of his but.  After his pitch, he asked if I would like to follow him down to the recruiting office, I went, and then busted out my ID card.  He about pooped a brick.  There I was an AD Captain, and he knew his job there was over.  (SIDE STORY, not related to this thread!)

Go to the Marine Corps recruiting Command website, call the S-1 and find out if advanced credit is given for CAP.  I know it was 2 years ago, maybe not anymore.  Heck it is given for Young Marines participants, and Naval Cadet Corps Cadets.

[Monty]

Don't always be so sure that "Mr. Mitchell #89,546" recipient is AF material...copping an "attitude of entitlement" sits real poorly with the Air Force and could make people who draft AF contracts start "forgetting" stuff.
Fair's fair. 

I understand what you are saying, but it the end you should be ethical about it.  Your comment adds to the negative view some people have of recruiters. 

I had a "career counselor" give me a speech while I was sitting in a mall eating a few years back, and he lied out of his but.  After his pitch, he asked if I would like to follow him down to the recruiting office, I went, and then busted out my ID card.  He about pooped a brick.  There I was an AD Captain, and he knew his job there was over.  (SIDE STORY, not related to this thread!)

Go to the Marine Corps recruiting Command website, call the S-1 and find out if advanced credit is given for CAP.  I know it was 2 years ago, maybe not anymore.  Heck it is given for Young Marines participants, and Naval Cadet Corps Cadets.

I haven't been a recruiter for 10 years so the "you should be ethical" (at least in tense) doesn't really fit.  Fortunately I'm not a knee jerker either, or I'd have to really have words with you about my ethics having been seemingly questioned.

Sorry friend - I ran a transparent operation without smoke and mirrors - my standards were high, regardless of others' opinions.  Folks knew up front what I expected as a conduit into the Air Force and they knew up front that I was not there to make their dreams happen - they were coming to me for a job to serve their nation, and a level of decorum for such a responsibility was the order of the day.  Folks also knew what entitled them to whatever: we'd sit down with the AETCI together and I'd *show* 'em.

Dare anyone to find a recruiter that'd do that.

No sense in giving potential cadet or airman an initial incorrect representation of the armed forces (re: subordinate commands the superior) and then having it reset by AETC after the bus ride to Lackland or Maxwell.

The office visits where I was directly observed by SrNCOs and O-5s congratulated me on this resolve as well, so I was certainly supported.  Right there in front of little Mr. or Miss, I let them know that their responsibility in doing what I needed to do in order to process them was directly correlated to how much effort I would put into their package; and that included whatever perks they wanted.

I made it rather clear that coming to ME for a job was like going to Microsoft for a job - what does a potential recruit have to offer ME as an employer.....never the other way around.  It's another reason why I didn't go to malls, High Schools, bus stations, or buy kids lunch in order to make them want to join.

Senses of entitlement might better be served by other services vs. mine.  When Billy came in dictating to me what he was and was not going to do, I was happy to guide him by the shoulder to a different colored suit wearer down the hall.  Even if he flashed a big fat Spaatz.

I *never* had an AF member call me up and say, "what were you thinking in letting this guy into the Air Force."  And I never had a cadet or airman ever call me back and say, "I got a wrong deal with you."

Both types were instrumental when I applied - and earned - a commissioning program opportunity of my own.

Ethics and I were - and are - hand in hand.  I could never look my own son in the eye and expect him to be honest and ethical if I couldn't be.



PS - In the 80+ members I put into stripes or bars, no more than FIVE were even Mitchell or better.  CAP is not as big a contributor to the USAF as we might suspect, though I can only speak for my own experiences.

[AlphaSigOU]

Well said, Monty!

[Stonewall]

FYI, in 1991 I got E-2 upon enlisting into the Army with the Mitchell.  No biggie, cuz either way I would have gotten it for "recruiting" a buddy (who was going in anyway).

I could never be a recruiter.  They'd fire me in a week for sending people away.  And like Monty, I'd never go fishing for recruits.  Man, I'll just stop here.  Had to delete a few things that would have really ticked people off.....

It's a shame we have to recruit.  People should be pounding down the door to serve their country.  But that's just my opinion.

[arajca]

It's a shame we have to recruit.  People should be pounding down the door to serve their country.  But that's just my opinion.

Agreed. We shouldn't have recruiters, we should have selection boards.

[jimmydeanno]

Agreed. We shouldn't have recruiters, we should have selection boards.

Until we have people banging down our door to join, I'll keep my recruiting and retention officer...he's doing a great job making us >not< the best kept secret in the world.

[Stonewall]

Agreed. We shouldn't have recruiters, we should have selection boards.

Until we have people banging down our door to join, I'll keep my recruiting and retention officer...he's doing a great job making us >not< the best kept secret in the world.

What you talkin' about Willis?



Are you talking CAP?  Cuz we're talking Military recruiters...

[jimmydeanno]

Pay no attention to me, I think I had a slight lapse in conciousness...

[Cecil DP]

It's a shame we have to recruit.  People should be pounding down the door to serve their country.  But that's just my opinion.

Agreed. We shouldn't have recruiters, we should have selection boards.

That's exactly what recruiters are, the first gate in the process of keeping up a quality force.

[flyguy06]

I agree with Monty,

Just because you are "eligible" for a rank doesnt mean you "have" to get.

Plus, i dont see what all the fuss is about. Whats the difference in pay between an E-1 and an E-3? About $70 (just a guess).

Why are we spending time talking about trying to get someone on the sevice as an E-3? We should be trying to encourage our cadets to go to college and become officers if they have military aspirations.

I am not an elitest. I was enlisted for 11 years as an 11B soldier, so btdt.

[mikeylikey]

I agree with Monty,

Just because you are "eligible" for a rank doesnt mean you "have" to get.

Plus, i dont see what all the fuss is about. Whats the difference in pay between an E-1 and an E-3? About $70 (just a guess).

I am not an elitest. I was enlisted for 11 years as an 11B soldier, so btdt.

Then you would know rank is everything.  If you are an E-1/2, I will come to you before I go to the E-3 to rake the gravel parking lot outside the battalion HQ.  Coming in as an E-3 means you have a slight jump on your peers.  And you are making around $330.00 more than an E-1 per month and at the end of the year that adds up to almost $4,000.00

I am sure everyone can use $4,000 more a year right?

[SarDragon]

From the point of view of an E-1 or E-3, that's a fair chunk of change. Some things never seem to change - the officer ignorance of junior enlisted pay being one.

[Eclipse]

I agree with Monty,

Just because you are "eligible" for a rank doesnt mean you "have" to get.

Plus, i dont see what all the fuss is about. Whats the difference in pay between an E-1 and an E-3? About $70 (just a guess).

I am not an elitest. I was enlisted for 11 years as an 11B soldier, so btdt.

Then you would know rank is everything.  If you are an E-1/2, I will come to you before I go to the E-3 to rake the gravel parking lot outside the battalion HQ.  Coming in as an E-3 means you have a slight jump on your peers.  And you are making around $330.00 more than an E-1 per month and at the end of the year that adds up to almost $4,000.00

I am sure everyone can use $4,000 more a year right?

Not only that, you're now ahead in the line with your peers - might not mean much today, but 10 years from now, when you are competing for some sweet post, it could be all the difference in the world.  My understanding is that an e-3 places you as much as 18 months ahead of peers who walk in the door and get nothing for prior service or education.

[flyguy06]

From the point of view of an E-1 or E-3, that's a fair chunk of change. Some things never seem to change - the officer ignorance of junior enlisted pay being one.

I am not ignorant first of all. I have been an E-3 in my life second of all. You know nothing about my background so you have no idea what I know about not having enough money in my life thrid of all. Thank you

[flyguy06]

I agree with Monty,

Just because you are "eligible" for a rank doesnt mean you "have" to get.

Plus, i dont see what all the fuss is about. Whats the difference in pay between an E-1 and an E-3? About $70 (just a guess).

I am not an elitest. I was enlisted for 11 years as an 11B soldier, so btdt.

By the time they reach E6 it all evens out

Then you would know rank is everything.  If you are an E-1/2, I will come to you before I go to the E-3 to rake the gravel parking lot outside the battalion HQ.  Coming in as an E-3 means you have a slight jump on your peers.  And you are making around $330.00 more than an E-1 per month and at the end of the year that adds up to almost $4,000.00

I am sure everyone can use $4,000 more a year right?

Not only that, you're now ahead in the line with your peers - might not mean much today, but 10 years from now, when you are competing for some sweet post, it could be all the difference in the world.  My understanding is that an e-3 places you as much as 18 months ahead of peers who walk in the door and get nothing for prior service or education.

[mikeylikey]

From the point of view of an E-1 or E-3, that's a fair chunk of change. Some things never seem to change - the officer ignorance of junior enlisted pay being one.

I am not ignorant first of all. I have been an E-3 in my life second of all. You know nothing about my background so you have no idea what I know about not having enough money in my life thrid of all. Thank you

Was this directed at me?  I made general statements about money, not about anyone's personal financial situations.  If not directed at me, sorry, I did not take offense, I was just confused by your comment. 

[SarDragon]

From the point of view of an E-1 or E-3, that's a fair chunk of change. Some things never seem to change - the officer ignorance of junior enlisted pay being one.

I am not ignorant first of all. I have been an E-3 in my life second of all. You know nothing about my background so you have no idea what I know about not having enough money in my life thrid of all. Thank you

Flyguy, I wasn't referring to your post, but rather mikeylikey's. Sorry for the confusion.

And, now that I have reread that whole exchange, I may have misspoken, so let's just move along past it.

[BlackKnight]

Just because you are "eligible" for a rank doesnt mean you "have" to get.

True.

Plus, i dont see what all the fuss is about. Whats the difference in pay between an E-1 and an E-3? About $70 (just a guess).

The fuss is that CAP makes a big deal about the fact that the cadet Mitchell Award gets a cadet an advanced enlistment slot (E-3 in the USAF and Coast Guard, E-2 in the Army/Navy/Marines).  I mention that nearly every month to cadets and parents. If that isn't true anymore then CAP NHQ needs to adjust their brochures and websites accordingly.  If it is true, then we apparently have some service recruiters who don't know their own regulations.

Why are we spending time talking about trying to get someone on the sevice as an E-3? We should be trying to encourage our cadets to go to college and become officers if they have military aspirations.

Agree 100%.  But not every Mitchell cadet has the grades or drive to get into college.  I know a 20 year-old cadet in a nearby squadron who has stayed in CAP as a cadet for an extra two years so he could earn his Mitchell to get the advanced grade enlistment in the Army or National Guard.  He's going to be pretty PO'd if that turns out to be false advertising.

[flyguy06]

Just because you are "eligible" for a rank doesnt mean you "have" to get.

True.

Plus, i dont see what all the fuss is about. Whats the difference in pay between an E-1 and an E-3? About $70 (just a guess).

The fuss is that CAP makes a big deal about the fact that the cadet Mitchell Award gets a cadet an advanced enlistment slot (E-3 in the USAF and Coast Guard, E-2 in the Army/Navy/Marines).  I mention that nearly every month to cadets and parents. If that isn't true anymore then CAP NHQ needs to adjust their brochures and websites accordingly.  If it is true, then we apparently have some service recruiters who don't know their own regulations.

Why are we spending time talking about trying to get someone on the sevice as an E-3? We should be trying to encourage our cadets to go to college and become officers if they have military aspirations.

Agree 100%.  But not every Mitchell cadet has the grades or drive to get into college.  I know a 20 year-old cadet in a nearby squadron who has stayed in CAP as a cadet for an extra two years so he could earn his Mitchell to get the advanced grade enlistment in the Army or National Guard.  He's going to be pretty PO'd if that turns out to be false advertising.

But thats my point. Its not false advertising. You can become an E-3 if you have a Mitchell.  You can "if" the servce chooses you to. Its like like when someone is eligible for a scholorship. They can meet the criteria but they still have to be selected for it. Its not automatic just because they meet the criteria.
And you say some cadets dont have the drive to go to college. Well,if they have the drive to work and get the itchell or Spaatz then why wouldnt they have the drive to go to college?

[DNall]

You know, and the couple of you real military officers on here should know this (respectfully), not everyone is cut out to be an officer. It's not about being smart or educated. You can't tell me an E-3 PJ is unmotivated, or even you average 11B for that matter. And freakin AF NCOs have masters degrees & junk.

Being an officer is a huge responsibility. It's not just intelligence, education, drive to succeed, leadership, etc. Just for starters, it's taking people's lives in your hands. Not everyone wants that responsibility. Not everyone that does want it can handle it.

If you are in an impoverished inner-city area Sq encouraging kids with military aspirations to consider something like college & officership when coming from their background they may never have even thought such a thing was possible, well that's great. On the whole that's going to be very good advice, but at the same time, it's a very small segment of society that qualifies for the military at all, a micro segment of that who serve, and a minscule part of that who reach the standard of officership. Even then we all know an "officer" or two who seem to have slipped through the cracks, and we certainly know NCOs who could just as easily be CEOs.


Far as the E-3 thing for Navy/Marine. That's news to me. I can see not adding it, but I can't understand why it'd be purposefully dropped. That said, long before I go talking to them about changing it back, I think I'd spend some time in long hard ocnsideration about the state of our program.

Can you honestly say that w/ 12yos now in the program, with lawyers dictating our kinder gentler "not the real military" approach... can you say that consistently at every Sq all across the country that at the mitchell level that kid sight unseen has achieved a leadership/discipline/etc level on par with an E-3? Can you say that the quality control in our program is on par with being able to do that? Can you say we train our cadet programs officers to a level that they are even remotely capable of mentoring cadet officers/NCOs to deliver a program to Amn that brings them to that level? Can you at least say we're meeting all those benchmarks in the min time (18mos) to Mitchell that another kid would get in 4 full years of JROTC?

When you can answer yes to all of that, then hell yeah I say we raise holy hell to get it changed back & more. Until then, I'd lean toward letting the Navy/Marines run their house the way they see fit & not worrying so much about it till we get our own house in order... respectfully.

[flyguy06]

DNall,
You made assumptions of my comments. being an officer has nothing to do with intelligence. Like you said, there are some NCO's that have more education than some Majors.

People always automatically ssume when you talk about military officer, you are trying to say they are better. Thats not what I am saying.

i am saying to encourage our young people to be the as good as they can. You are right. I do encourage youths to be officers. Why? I fell if you can go to college and get the four year degree why not reap the full advantages of it. A capt makes a lot more money than a Staff Sergeant. So make as much as you can.

I respect all service members (even the non infantry ones) 

[flyguy06]

When you can answer yes to all of that, then hell yeah I say we raise holy hell to get it changed back & more. Until then, I'd lean toward letting the Navy/Marines run their house the way they see fit & not worrying so much about it till we get our own house in order... respectfully.

I agree totally with this

[Monty]

Why are we spending time talking about trying to get someone on the sevice as an E-3? We should be trying to encourage our cadets to go to college and become officers if they have military aspirations.

I'd agree with your "college" portion to a large extent but inherently disagree with the emphasis on commissioning.

Sorry, but in my experience, there are some officers that never should have commissioned but rather, should have enlisted; there are several enlisted that should have stayed the course and got commissioned.

In my estimation, there is too much emphasis on officers being the end-all and be-all of success by those who are VERY well-intentioned, but a bit behind the power curve in terms of objective analysis when correlating personality and interest with application and appropriateness.

It's arguably a sad state of affairs when so much emphasis is placed upon commissioning in our cadet program, only to see a mediocre cadet not get any entry into any commissioning program and well, he/she elects to not even consider enlisting because such a thing is "beneath him or her."  (God forbid he/she learned such a thing overtly, but generally, enlistment is not held as much in high esteem as commissioning, within the cadet program.)

Sad to see so many non-accepted USAFA applicants and rejected AFROTC scholarship types from CAP sit for 8 years in community college when their bonafide great talents could have been fatastically honed, honorably, in the armed forces as a future (potential) CMSAF.

That's all I'm going to say on the matter.  (This coming from a guy who enlisted first and then competed for - and earned - a commissioning opportunity [the USAF's "POC-ERP," specifically.])

[BlackKnight]

Does the U.S. Army and the U.S. Navy also interpret their regulations as "suggestions" rather than "requirements"? I know the average CAP wing commander ignores regulations whenever it suits but I would hope that our regular service personnel pay more attention to their regulations and procedures. The highlighted quotes below seem pretty clear. If you have the CAP Mitchell Award (and meet the other requirement for US Army or Navy enlistment) you start out at E-2 instead of E-1.  Ditto for the USAF, ANG. and the Coast Guard, except they give E-3 for the Mitchell (see below). 

I'll leave it as an exercise for the CAPTalk membership to locate the latest recruiting instruction for the U.S. Marine Corps and see whether they offer the same deal.   

From AR 601-210 Sec. 2-18(10), 7 JUN 07: http://www.army.mil/usapa/epubs/pdf/r601_210.pdf

a. The following explains who may enlist and when and at what pay grade. An applicant who—
(10) Has completed all phase II requirements of the Air Force Civil Air Patrol and has been awarded the Billy Mitchell Award may enlist at any time at pay grade PV2.

The Recruiting Regulation for the US Navy is COMNAVCRUITCOMINST 1130.8G. It's hard to find online but here's the link: http://www.npc.navy.mil/NR/rdonlyres/0B0046BD-4567-44D6-89D3-1C002EB792EC/0/11308G_Chp4_CH_1.pdf 

From COMNAVCRUITCOMINST 1130.8G Chapter 4, Section 20, page 3:

d. Civil Air Patrol. Applicants who provide documentation of having received the Civil Air Patrol Billy Mitchell Award may be enlisted in paygrade E2.

From the CAP website: http://level2.cap.gov/index.cfm?nodeID=5355

Milestone Award Cadets & the U.S. Military
US Air Force Benefits.   Cadets who earn the Billy Mitchell Award may qualify to enter the Air Force at an advanced pay grade upon enlistment (see AFRS 36-2001, paragraph 2.22: http://www.e-publishing.af.mil/shared/media/epubs/AFRSI36-2001.pdf.).  Mitchell cadets who enroll in AFROTC may also receive credit for the CAP experience (see AFOTSI 36-2011, paragraph 2.5.6). 

US Army Benefits.  Cadets who earn the Billy Mitchell Award may qualify to enter the Army at an advanced pay grade.  See AR 601-210, paragraph 2-20J for details.

and from the CAP Cadet Programs homepage: http://www.cap.gov/visitors/members/cadet_programs/

Coast Guard Enlistment Incentives.  As of 22 June 2006 the US Coast Guard matches USAF incentives for cadets that have earned the Billy Mitchell Award (enlistment as E-3).
From the CG Recruiting Manual:   
4. U.S. Air Force Civil Air Patrol (CAP).   
a. Applicants with two years of experience are eligible to enlist in pay grade E-2.   
b. Applicants with three years of experience or cadets who receive the General Billy Mitchell Award are eligible to enlist in the pay grade of E-3. 24 Apr 07

[Flying Pig]

The Marines reserve PFC promotions for those who recruit at east two people to join with them prior to leaving for boot camp, and for recognition in boot camp.  I earned my PFC by recruiting two of my buddies to join.  ( I really did...it wasnt a hook up from the recruiter) I had my Mitchell also.  Although I am not oppossed to it, Thats the way the Marines are.  They dont award promotions for things that were done outside of the Corps.  You want PFC, you recruit two people and/or do good in boot camp and youll earn it. I can gaurantee you the Marines will NEVER award E-3 for the Mitchell.  Thats pretty much reserved for the honor grads. As far as CAP cadets joining the Marines, I imagine a few more would if they offered PFC for the Mitchell, but it says something to me when a cadet still decides to join the Marines as an E-1 knowing the other services are offering E-3. 

As far as being an officer and going to college.  The last thing I wanted to do was go to college.  I graduated high school on Thursday and left for bootcamp on Sat morning.  The last thing from my mind was college.  I wanted to be an Infantry Marine and that exactly what I did.  When it was over...I got out.  So saying we should push every cadet to go to college and become officers is a little much.  I know several cadets who went enlisted and then later became officers.  And many more who never joined at all.  I was in CAP with a cadet who wanted to be enlisted, then become an officer specifically.  He specifically wanted to be a Mustang (prior enlisted officer).  He made it to Corporal, became an officer and is now a Major.

[RiverAux]

I was waiting for someone to inject some facts into this -- thanks BlackKnight for showing that the Navy does in fact recognize the Mitchell. 

Anyone have access to the relevant Marine document to show once and for all whether it is the case for them too?

[BlackKnight]

The Marines reserve PFC promotions for those who recruit at east two people to join with them prior to leaving for boot camp, and for recognition in boot camp.

According to this url http://usmilitary.about.com/od/marines/l/bladvrank.htm your information is incomplete. If you can point to a regulation that states that the USMC limits PFC only to those participating in the "buddy system" program, please do so.

Apparently there are a number of civilian achievements that the USMC will award E-2 for, including: 2 or more years of JROTC or ROTC, Boy Scout Eagle Award or Girl Scout Gold Award, 24 months service time or cadet grade E-3 in the Navy Sea Cadet Program, or achieving the grade of E-5 in the Young Marines.

I have not been able to find the above summarized in a single USMC document online. The USMC recruiting website is almost all photos and flash without any references to regulations or legal documents. (Targeting their anticipated audience perhaps?!  ) 

I did find the Young Marines E-5 connection here.

3.b. Advanced Pavgrade Enlistment. Members of the YM who are designated as an E-5 may be enlisted in the Marine Corps in an advanced paygrade of E-2. All YM will be required to complete regular Marine Corps recruit training upon enlistment.

Unfortunately, it does appear from my research so far that the USMC is the only U.S. military service that values Girl Scouts more than CAP Cadet Officers!   

Evidently they have different recruiting priorities... 

Edit: Fixed way-long URL that broke page -TA

[ironputts]

   Thanks everyone for your input. The basis for this subject was I received confirmation from 3 or more recruiters from the Navy and Marine Corps that Civil Air Patrol Cadets receive no rank enhancement joining their branch. I was hoping I would receive support from you whether this is true or not. I now have formal documentation that I will talk to a Navy recruiter and get a firm confirmation.
   Since I started this I was visited by a Marine Corps senior nco recruiter who stated the Marines give Cap cadets with 2 Years of experience an E-2 rank.  I asked him to confirm this and I am still waiting. I will inform everyone about this.
   I really didnt want to go down the road of who should or should not get rank when entering the branch our cadets join. All I wanted is to know what qualifications they are looking for and inform our cadets. I would then want our cadets to be sure everything they were promised MUST be on their contract or there is no promise but only talk.
   FYI, my past experience I have had 60% of my cadets enter Marine Corps, 25% join Air Force, the remaining percentage to the remaining branches. Keep the faith!

[BlackKnight]

   Since I started this I was visited by a Marine Corps senior nco recruiter who stated the Marines give Cap cadets with 2 Years of experience an E-2 rank.  I asked him to confirm this and I am still waiting. I will inform everyone about this.

Please keep us posted on what you eventually find out. About three years ago I had a USMC recruiter in full dress uniform sit in my dining room and tell my son (a CAP Cadet Officer) pretty much the same thing, the only difference was that he tied the E-2 to the Mitchell Award instead of 2 years experience in CAP. 

[stillamarine]

If you look up MCO P1100.72B and look at figure 4-2 on page 4-39 and it will show you exactly what can be used to be give rank other than Private.  Nothing about CAP is on there, I find this odd because like I said I received it maybe I slipped by the cracks I guess. Maybe it's been dropped since I joined 12 years ago (OMG it will be 13 years in 2 months  ). Also I word to note, NOBODY gets anything other than E-2 unless they are enlisting to join the Marine Corps Band (the HQMC one not a Regimental Band), then surprisingly enough they get SSGT after Recruit Training and MCT, but that is extremely hard to come by.

Listen I absolutely agree that CAP Cadets should be ELIGIBLE for E-2 upon enlistment into my beloved Corps. Matter of fact, in my experience, CAP Cadets are better qualified for the advanced rank in the Corps than many ROTC cadets and dang near all Eagle Scouts etc. But, how do we change that MCO? Heck give me a petition to sign and send to my Congressman I will but I'm just an old former Marine Sgt  and I don't have a whole lotta pull on my own! 

[BlackKnight]

If you look up MCO P1100.72B and look at figure 4-2 on page 4-39 and it will show you exactly what can be used to be give rank other than Private. 

Thank you!  I had found MCO P1100.72B in my previous web searches but Table 4-2 was buried so deep in the document that I missed it.  This completes our survey... 

For convenience, here's a direct link:
https://www.marines.usmc.mil/RS/CRC/MPPM.pdf

Note that the latest revision date appears to be 10 DEC 97, so those recruiters who reportedly are claiming that "CAP used to be in there but was removed in the last couple of years"  are apparently blowing smoke. One could make a reasonable argument that the CAP Mitchell Award is equivalent to 2 years of Junior ROTC (especially if compared with the JROTC programs in my town), and as a former Eagle Scout I will affirm that the Mitchell is certainly on par with the BSA Eagle.  But if credit for CAP is not specifically called out in the USMC regulations our cadets don't have much negotiating leverage.

[ironputts]

Thanks BlackKnight! I was told that regulation by the Marine recruiter I mentioned but couldnt find it through normal browser searches. I found the section from the url you gave me and and it looks like this:

MARINE CORPS ORDER P1100.72B

TABLE 4-2
_____________________________________________________________________________
APPOINTMENT TO A GRADE OTHER THAN PRIVATE UPON ENLISTMENT.
_____________________________________________________________________________
NOTE 7. Completion of 2 years or more at a service academy satisfies this requirement.
NOTE 8. The individual making the referrals will be eligible for the higher appointment only if the referrals enlist into the DEP or directly into the Marine Corps or SMCR (including awaiting IADT) prior to the individual's
graduation from recruit training.
NOTE 9. The individual must present full documentation, e.g., official Boy/Girl Scout certificates awarding Eagle/Gold Award status, Naval Sea Cadet Corps promotion/service certificates, etc.

The recruiter was explaining we are covered under note seven and not under note nine. The problem is CAP is not a service academy. I believe we were under nine at one time and dropped recently. Thus the confusion for the recruiters and why our cadets are not getting the E-2 rank. With this I can look more educated to the Marine recruiter. I will pursuit this and see what I can find out and will post it for all to see. I would like to post this results so all CAP seniors and cadets knows this and ask your recommendation where I should do this.

Just another point I mentioned earlier about our cadets making sure everything they are expecting is on their contract is also mentioned in this document:

MARINE CORPS ORDER P1100.72B

1105. RECRUITING ETHICS.
c. Under no circumstances shall recruiting personnel directly or indirectly characterize life in the Marine Corps as a 1-5 life of ease and pleasure. Instead, our life should be depicted as a life that offers men and women a military career where technical training, education, and other rewards are available for those who work and desire to make their own way. The Marine Corps is a challenging career. If properly presented, this should be sufficient attraction for young men and women of the desired character.
d. Recruiting personnel must reinforce in the mind of each applicant that only those promises actually written into the enlistment contract will be kept.

[RiverAux]

I think it hardly appropriate that Boy Scouts or Girl Scouts get advanced consideration but CAP does not. 

[PHall]

I think it hardly appropriate that Boy Scouts or Girl Scouts get advanced consideration but CAP does not. 

They had better representation at HQ USMC.

[Eclipse]

1105. RECRUITING ETHICS.
c. Under no circumstances shall recruiting personnel directly or indirectly characterize life in the Marine Corps as a 1-5 life of ease and pleasure.

What's a 1-5 life?  Should that be 9-5?

[MIKE]

1 to 5 seems about right... get up after 10, brunch, then go to work in the afternoon. 

[stillamarine]

1105. RECRUITING ETHICS.
c. Under no circumstances shall recruiting personnel directly or indirectly characterize life in the Marine Corps as a 1-5 life of ease and pleasure.

What's a 1-5 life?  Should that be 9-5?

We were comparing it to the hours of AF recruiters

[Dragoon]

The services offer advanced grade to get folks they really want.   So USMC doesn't really want our guys.  No big deal - that's their prerogative.  One of the advantages of being a small service is that you don't need to recruit as many. You can be pickier.

As others have said, the Mitchell is nice, but our program doesn't come close to ensuring that all Mitchell's have the same level of training and competence.  Our squadrons are just run too differently, and with too little central oversight, for that kind of standardized product.

[Falshrmjgr]

I remember the Army used to give E4 for 4 Years JROTC too.  (Of course you had to pass the SQT, but they got rid of the SQT right before Iwent in....)

[Cecil DP]

PS - In the 80+ members I put into stripes or bars, no more than FIVE were even Mitchell or better.  CAP is not as big a contributor to the USAF as we might suspect, though I can only speak for my own experiences.

5  out of 80 comes out to 6.25% that seems to add up to about 13,000 members of the Air Force based on current strength of 200,000. That is significant.

Tags - MIKE

[ironputts]

"I would like to post this results so all CAP seniors and cadets knows this and ask your recommendation where I should do this."


I mentioned this in my previous post but I meant it towards anyone looking at this subject. I got the info for all branches and getting info via us mail from the coast guard to finish it. I would like to post the results but also get it out to as many CAP folks as I can. I would like everyone to give me recommendations where to post this and if you can explain how to get this to your recommendation I would appreciate it.

[Monty]

PS - In the 80+ members I put into stripes or bars, no more than FIVE were even Mitchell or better.  CAP is not as big a contributor to the USAF as we might suspect, though I can only speak for my own experiences.

5  out of 80 comes out to 6.25% that seems to add up to about 13,000 members of the Air Force based on current strength of 200,000. That is significant.

Tags - MIKE

Well, friend...I'm compelled to make mention that no more than five were even Mitchell recipients (as you quoted me).  5 CAP folks...1 was a Mitchell cadet.

And well, my tallies were absolutely in no way indicative of the mean or median of all Air Force recruiters' combined or yearly amounts of members joined.... 

Lastly, bear in mind that CAP folks were more receptive to me, on account that they knew I was a "dual-hatter" USAF & CAP sort, unlike most Air Force recruiters.

[Psicorp]

MARINE CORPS ORDER P1100.72B

TABLE 4-2
_____________________________________________________________________________
APPOINTMENT TO A GRADE OTHER THAN PRIVATE UPON ENLISTMENT.
_____________________________________________________________________________
NOTE 7. Completion of 2 years or more at a service academy satisfies this requirement.
NOTE 8. The individual making the referrals will be eligible for the higher appointment only if the referrals enlist into the DEP or directly into the Marine Corps or SMCR (including awaiting IADT) prior to the individual's
graduation from recruit training.
NOTE 9. The individual must present full documentation, e.g., official Boy/Girl Scout certificates awarding Eagle/Gold Award status, Naval Sea Cadet Corps promotion/service certificates, etc.

The recruiter was explaining we are covered under note seven and not under note nine. The problem is CAP is not a service academy. I believe we were under nine at one time and dropped recently. Thus the confusion for the recruiters and why our cadets are not getting the E-2 rank. With this I can look more educated to the Marine recruiter. I will pursuit this and see what I can find out and will post it for all to see. I would like to post this results so all CAP seniors and cadets knows this and ask your recommendation where I should do this.

You'd think we'd be covered under Note 9 with the "etc" clause.

Personally I think the UCMC is a unique branch of service.  I came close to enlisting in it.  The recruiter told me that I would have to gain 20 lbs and run a mile for her before she'd sign me up. She also mentioned something about book reports too, which I still think is funny the way she phrased it.    I was more concerned with getting into the specific field I was interested in than any advance in grade, unfortunately that's something else that recruiters cannot guarentee.

[ironputts]

MARINE CORPS ORDER P1100.72B

TABLE 4-2
_____________________________________________________________________________
APPOINTMENT TO A GRADE OTHER THAN PRIVATE UPON ENLISTMENT.
_____________________________________________________________________________
NOTE 7. Completion of 2 years or more at a service academy satisfies this requirement.
NOTE 8. The individual making the referrals will be eligible for the higher appointment only if the referrals enlist into the DEP or directly into the Marine Corps or SMCR (including awaiting IADT) prior to the individual's
graduation from recruit training.
NOTE 9. The individual must present full documentation, e.g., official Boy/Girl Scout certificates awarding Eagle/Gold Award status, Naval Sea Cadet Corps promotion/service certificates, etc.

The recruiter was explaining we are covered under note seven and not under note nine. The problem is CAP is not a service academy. I believe we were under nine at one time and dropped recently. Thus the confusion for the recruiters and why our cadets are not getting the E-2 rank. With this I can look more educated to the Marine recruiter. I will pursuit this and see what I can find out and will post it for all to see. I would like to post this results so all CAP seniors and cadets knows this and ask your recommendation where I should do this.

You'd think we'd be covered under Note 9 with the "etc" clause.

Personally I think the UCMC is a unique branch of service.  I came close to enlisting in it.  The recruiter told me that I would have to gain 20 lbs and run a mile for her before she'd sign me up. She also mentioned something about book reports too, which I still think is funny the way she phrased it.    I was more concerned with getting into the specific field I was interested in than any advance in grade, unfortunately that's something else that recruiters cannot guarentee.

Good point and one the Marine recruiter mentioned. I told him if they are going to mention the Girl Scouts by name so should they name CAP! He is looking into it as we write and will get back to me. He joked and said they like the Girl Scouts because they sell good cookies! Anyone have any suggestions who to pass this info to??

[ironputts]

OK. Here is the DEFINITIVE list of ranks issued to our cadets after fulfilling requirments for enlisting. The only branch that doesnt name Civil Air Patrol by name is the Marine Corps! I am working with a local Marine MSG recruiter to find out why we are omitted. I need to apologize to the Navy as they do mention us! Here you go and if anyone knows how we can get this info to all our cadets and seniors I would appreciate it! I guess it is time to close this POST!

Civil Air Patrol Cadet initial enlistment rank appointments by branch
As of December 1, 2007
Air Force
AFRSI36-2001 1 APRIL 2005
2.22. Enlistment Grade Determination.
Table 2.1. Enlistment Grade Determination and Factors.
8. Was awarded the Billy Mitchell, Amelia Earhart, or Carl Spaatz award or has a letter from AP/AF/TTHE, Maxwell AFB AL, certifying successful completion of award requirements
Rank: Airman First Class (A1C).

Army
AR 601–210 • 7 June 2007
Section II. Enlistment Periods and Pay Grades
2–18. Enlistment pay grades for personnel without prior service (10) Has completed all phase II requirements of the Air Force Civil Air Patrol and has been awarded the Billy Mitchell Award may enlist at any time at pay grade PV2.

Coast Guard
COMDTINST M1100-2E
2.E.6.b Prior Education or training
4 U.S. Air Force Civil Air Patrol (CAP)
a. Applicants with two or more years of experience are eligible to enlist in pay grade E-2
b. Applicants with three years of experience or cadets who receive the General Billy Mitchell Award are eligible for to enlist in the pay grade pf E-3.


Marine Corps
MARINE CORPS ORDER P1100.72B
APPOINTMENT TO A GRADE OTHER THAN PRIVATE UPON ENLISTMENT.
NOTE 7. Completion of 2 years or more at a service academy satisfies this requirement.
NOTE 9. The individual must present full documentation, e.g., official Boy/Girl Scout certificates awarding Eagle/Gold Award status, Naval Sea Cadet Corps promotion/service certificates, etc.
Rank: E2

Navy
COMNAVCRUITCOMINST 1130.8G – VOLUME I
042002. CRITERIA FOR ADVANCED PAYGRADE
d. Civil Air Patrol. Applicants who provide documentation of having received the Civil Air Patrol Billy Mitchell Award may be enlisted in pay grade E2.

[afgeo4]

One of my former cadets enlisted into the USMC about 4 years ago. He was a C/TSgt and an outstanding leader in the squadron. He was also in the Young Marines. At enlistment, he received E-3 Lance Corporal due to both. A letter of recommendation was requested by his recruited and attached to the paperwork (which I saw myself).

He is now with the 2nd MARDIV out of Camp Lejeune. A Sgt I believe.

[M.Glisson003]

I joined the Marine Corps just over 7 months ago and I am going to boot camp as a E-2. The only way to get to E-3 is to be meritoriously promoted to E-3 while in boot camp.

[afgeo4]

At least you were lucky enough to run into a recruiter that told you they didn't still give them E-3. One of my friends was told by his recruiter that he would get either E-2 or E-3 because of the length of time he had been active as a CAP cadet, the recruiter even had our squadron fill out paperwork for it. He didn't find out until the end of boot camp that it wasn't true.

Whatever is stated in your enlistment contract will happen (the contract is signed by the recruit at time of enlistment). If the contract states that the recruit is E-1, then he/she is E-1, not E-3. It doesn't matter what anyone says. It has to be in black on white for it to be true.

[Brad]

I know that NJROTC offers E-3 eligibility to all former cadets with at least 3 years of courses in all branches except the USMC. They only offer up to E-2 because E-3 is Lance Corporal which is considered an NCO. When I was considering enlisting, I got my documentation letter from my Senior Naval Science Instructor. The last paragraph stated that the final promotion decision rests with the gaining service. From what I've heard, Marines don't receive any advaced grade until after recruit training, however I do believe that they still get the higher pay, but I may be wrong on that part. My friend who's currently in Iraq, he did 4 years NJROTC as did I, and he said that he was PFC from the get-go, even during Basic, advanced pay and everything [EDIT: but he's in the Army]

[stillamarine]

I know that NJROTC offers E-3 eligibility to all former cadets with at least 3 years of courses in all branches except the USMC. They only offer up to E-2 because E-3 is Lance Corporal which is considered an NCO. When I was considering enlisting, I got my documentation letter from my Senior Naval Science Instructor. The last paragraph stated that the final promotion decision rests with the gaining service. From what I've heard, Marines don't receive any advaced grade until after recruit training, however I do believe that they still get the higher pay, but I may be wrong on that part. My friend who's currently in Iraq, he did 4 years NJROTC as did I, and he said that he was PFC from the get-go, even during Basic, advanced pay and everything.

LCPL isn't an NCO but is considered a leadership position, as stated earlier in the thread. If awaded E-2 for some reason, you'll receive the pay while in Recruit Training but won't put on your rank until sometime around graduation. Heck in the old days before MARPAT you didn't get to iron on your EGA until right before graduation. (EGA= Eagle Globe and Anchor ironed on the upper left  blouse pocket. MARPAT has it embroidered on)

[afgeo4]

The services offer advanced grade to get folks they really want.   So USMC doesn't really want our guys.  No big deal - that's their prerogative.  One of the advantages of being a small service is that you don't need to recruit as many. You can be pickier.

As others have said, the Mitchell is nice, but our program doesn't come close to ensuring that all Mitchell's have the same level of training and competence.  Our squadrons are just run too differently, and with too little central oversight, for that kind of standardized product.

It's not that they don't want our cadets. It's that they want young men/women to join the Sea Cadets. Choices were made. In reality, the only promotion you're going to get is to E-2 and that's 6 months of service away, so it's not that big of a deal. I think the services that offer E-3 promotions should be explored more.

I would hope that most of our cadets end up wanting to join the Air Force, but I know that's not the case unfortunately. The bonus of enlistment at higher grade is a great honor and shouldn't be given away to just anyone. I know our cadets are some of the best our youth has to offer, but our training really IS more geared toward USAF/USCG work.

[Flying Pig]

One of my former cadets enlisted into the USMC about 4 years ago. He was a C/TSgt and an outstanding leader in the squadron. He was also in the Young Marines. At enlistment, he received E-3 Lance Corporal due to both. A letter of recommendation was requested by his recruited and attached to the paperwork (which I saw myself).

He is now with the 2nd MARDIV out of Camp Lejeune. A Sgt I believe.

He may have graduated boot camp as an E-3 but he didn't get it in his enlistment contract.  I've known prior service NCO's who reenlisted in the Marines and graduated boot camp as E-2's. 

[Flying Pig]

I know that NJROTC offers E-3 eligibility to all former cadets with at least 3 years of courses in all branches except the USMC. They only offer up to E-2 because E-3 is Lance Corporal which is considered an NCO. When I was considering enlisting, I got my documentation letter from my Senior Naval Science Instructor. The last paragraph stated that the final promotion decision rests with the gaining service. From what I've heard, Marines don't receive any advaced grade until after recruit training, however I do believe that they still get the higher pay, but I may be wrong on that part. My friend who's currently in Iraq, he did 4 years NJROTC as did I, and he said that he was PFC from the get-go, even during Basic, advanced pay and everything [EDIT: but he's in the Army]

E-3 is not an NCO in the Marines.  Corporal E-4 is the first rank of NCO.  When I went to boot camp, I was an E-2.  I got paid the rank of an E-2 but didnt get to wear it until graduation day.  As far as being meritoriously promoted to E-3 in boot camp, you cant skip ranks in the Marines.  If you didnt come into Boot Camp as an E-2, you cant graduate an E-3. 

[SarDragon]

In reality, the only promotion you're going to get is to E-2 and that's 6 months of service away, so it's not that big of a deal.

I don't know many 18 or 19 yo's that think $973 is insignificant. FWIW, I don't think $973 is insignificant.

[afgeo4]

In reality, the only promotion you're going to get is to E-2 and that's 6 months of service away, so it's not that big of a deal.

I don't know many 18 or 19 yo's that think $973 is insignificant. FWIW, I don't think $973 is insignificant.

According to DFAS, basic pay (without allowances) beginning 01Jan08 is (2 years or less in service):

E-2 $1502.70
E-3 $1580.10

That's just $78.60/month (gross) for 6 months lost in basic pay wages by enlisting at E-2 instead of E-3.

Basic Allowance for Housing (RC/Transient) as of 01Jan08 (without dependents) if the person lives off base, which most E-2/E-3 do not.

E-2 $354.60
E-3 $436.80

That's a difference of $82.20/month tax free.

So you see, the difference really isn't that much and only for 6 months. For someone who wants to be a Marine, this is and should be a non-issue.

[SarDragon]

In reality, the only promotion you're going to get is to E-2 and that's 6 months of service away, so it's not that big of a deal.

I don't know many 18 or 19 yo's that think $973 is insignificant. FWIW, I don't think $973 is insignificant.

According to DFAS, basic pay (without allowances) beginning 01Jan08 is (2 years or less in service):

E-2 $1502.70
E-3 $1580.10

That's just $78.60/month (gross) for 6 months lost in basic pay wages by enlisting at E-2 instead of E-3.

Basic Allowance for Housing (RC/Transient) as of 01Jan08 (without dependents) if the person lives off base, which most E-2/E-3 do not.

E-2 $354.60
E-3 $436.80

That's a difference of $82.20/month tax free.

So you see, the difference really isn't that much and only for 6 months. For someone who wants to be a Marine, this is and should be a non-issue.

OOPS! I used E-1 and E-2 figures. Still, $471.60 is no small chunk of change.

[mikeylikey]

^ 6 Months is the minimum time in service for promotion to E-3.  As a Commander I can hold up said promotions, it is not automatic.  I held a soldier at E-2 for 15 months.  

[afgeo4]

^ 6 Months is the minimum time in service for promotion to E-3.  As a Commander I can hold up said promotions, it is not automatic.  I held a soldier at E-2 for 15 months. 

Sure, but what would you estimate the percentage of those hold-ups would be?

[mikeylikey]

^ Small percentage.  I was only trying to get across that things are not always as automatic as people say here.

[afgeo4]

^ Small percentage.  I was only trying to get across that things are not always as automatic as people say here.

They're not as automatic as they say anywhere actually. Life has its own pulse usually.

[Flying Pig]

The services offer advanced grade to get folks they really want.   So USMC doesn't really want our guys.  No big deal - that's their prerogative.  One of the advantages of being a small service is that you don't need to recruit as many. You can be pickier.

As others have said, the Mitchell is nice, but our program doesn't come close to ensuring that all Mitchell's have the same level of training and competence.  Our squadrons are just run too differently, and with too little central oversight, for that kind of standardized product.

It's not that they don't want our cadets. It's that they want young men/women to join the Sea Cadets. Choices were made. In reality, the only promotion you're going to get is to E-2 and that's 6 months of service away, so it's not that big of a deal. I think the services that offer E-3 promotions should be explored more.

I would hope that most of our cadets end up wanting to join the Air Force, but I know that's not the case unfortunately. The bonus of enlistment at higher grade is a great honor and shouldn't be given away to just anyone. I know our cadets are some of the best our youth has to offer, but our training really IS more geared toward USAF/USCG work.

When I joined the Marines, I had my Mitchell and knew the Air Force and Army would give me E-3.  I didnt choose the Marines for the extra pay.  I hope the Marines never offer E3 to CAP or JROTC. If your joining the Marines for pay and college money, you'd be better off going to another service.  E2 is a decent advancement for having a Mitchell.   If the cadet is really on the ball, they will get E3 as the Honor Man when they graduate boot camp.

[DNall]

^ 6 Months is the minimum time in service for promotion to E-3.  As a Commander I can hold up said promotions, it is not automatic.  I held a soldier at E-2 for 15 months.

Why so long? I might hold someone, but I couldn't see more than 6mos unless they were catching an article. And E-2 to E-3 is pretty meaningless. They're still a private with no authority. SPC & CPL are where the game gets played, after that it's NCO boards. I'm your junior at this, but I like to trust NCOs with that kind of thing. I wouldn't want to interfere unless I think they're screwing someone for personal reasons or something.

Far as the marines... it's a smaller service, so promotions are slow & lower grades are slightly more meaningful. They can do what they want/need to do. Our job in CAP is to make sure Mitchell level cadets are consistently at an E-3 or greater level in terms of gen mil skills, professionalism, fitness, etc. The services will recognize our output accordingly, as long as we keep up our end.

[Flying Pig]

Marine is capitalized.   

[DNall]

You know if I had that kind of attention to detail I'd be a freakin millionaire astronaut pro baseball player, as opposed to in the Army, which IS capitalized thank you very much.    

[nesagsar]

3 years ago my best friend joined the Marines and got nothing even though he was a Mitchel cadet. It didnt hurt too bad because he got a meritorious promotion at graduation and then another soon after to Lance Corporal.

[NavLT]

I recently had a cadet go into the corps.  He had to apply for advanced paygrade that would be determined by the commander.  Nothing automatic but possible.

I would guess that the automatic paygrade proved to be too easy and some applicants were better than others when they arrived at boot camp.  I have seen some pretty serious proffesional and behavioral differences in C/2LTs that would make the Navy/Marine perpspective on automatic advancement justified.

I would also offer that the difference between E-1 and E-3 when it comes to raking a parkinglot.......should be everyone just in deserves to rake the parking lot. I earned my way from E-1 to E-6 then to O-3E and if they are looking to use that automatic E-3 to get out of a little work they are going to get hammered by the Military.

V/R
LT J.

[mikeylikey]

I earned my way from E-1 to E-6 then to O-3E and if they are looking to use that automatic E-3 to get out of a little work they are going to get hammered by the Military.

Oh man another O-3E.   :clap:

As far as raking a parking lot I was just telling one of our fellow CAPTALKERS how I just sent 3 Soldiers out this morning to rake the gravel lot.  Guess its not just me who finds that a good way to get the attention of people who are late for formation, or "forget" to sign out on the weekends.  And you are right, E-1, and E-3 carry little difference in what they will do or not do in the unit, aside from their duties. 

As far as the Marine Corps granting advanced grade, they will do it if the recruiter is aware that CAP service is a item they can use.  If you push hard enough, E-3 is possible, but not the norm. 

Between E-3 and E-2, its only a difference of $78.00 OR $936.00 a year.  Not much, but when you are making $1509.90 at E-2 per month, that is like working an extra 3 weeks. 

Now if they really wanted to give us a benefit, they would allow those with the Mitchell in at O-2 instead of O-1.  That would help some of us    The best and worst time for an Officer is being a 2LT.  If we could skip that altogether!.  MY happiest day was when I got to pin on that silver bar, the world seemed to take me more seriously then.  The second happiest was when I got that second silver bar, or kind of sad too, knowing my responsibilities had just increased by 100%.  But, with the bars, I can sit here and type on CAPTALK and no one knows I am doing anything but work   

[cnitas]

But, with the bars, I can sit here and type on CAPTALK and no one knows I am doing anything but work   

Sounds to me like the Col. needs to send you out to rake the lot with your troops.