Color Guard Rifles

[Major Lord]

Well, as you can imagine it is quite a big code. It starts with 12020 California Penal Code, but I don't think I want to paste 20 million words here! You can find all of CA's blackletter law @: www.leginfo.ca.gov/calaw.html

I will see if I can find the Federal Law on orange tips. By the way, it is also illegal to have a real firearm colored orange in California..We can lawfully alllow cadets access to real firearms, just not toys with no orange tip.Go figure.

Major Lord

[DHollywood]

Actually I just needed to know what code you were citing - the Cal. Penal. Code.  Answers my question and I can toss that into Westlaw to see what courts have done with it.

The federal law is 15 USC 5001.

Interesting that the code contains federal occupying language:

(g) Preemption of State or local laws or ordinances; exceptions

The provisions of this section shall supersede any provision of State or local laws or ordinances which provide for markings or identification inconsistent with provisions of this section provided that no State shall—

(i) prohibit the sale or manufacture of any look-alike, nonfiring, collector replica of an antique firearm developed prior to 1898, or

(ii) prohibit the sale (other than prohibiting the sale to minors) of traditional B–B, paint ball, or pellet-firing air guns that expel a projectile through the force of air pressure.

The federal requirements prohibit the manufacture, entering into commerce, shipping, transporting, or receiving of the class of replicas stated without the blaze orange tip.

No where does the federal law bar possession without the orange tip.  Once the end user has the replica and it is no longer in the stream of commerce, the orange tip may be lawfully removed.

Sure, some local authorities claim to have some regulation that requires the orange tip, however aside from the exclusions available for sporting and theatrical productions, the local regulation would most likely be found violative of the constitution if it added terms and requirements to the federal law.

Not that I would encourage anyone to commit civil disobedience on the issue, but for myself I have no orange tip and travel to California several times a year for milsim events with no worries. 

A LEO probably would think the Code commands the orange tip be present at all times, but it simply defers to federal requirements which only command the orance tip during the period of time the replica is in the stream of commerce.

States may never expand on any commerce clause regulation by the feds.

Motion to dismiss granted.

[Major Lord]

"A bad lawyer wrote that code."

As opposed to the "good" kind?

Major Lord

Its 99% of Attorneys who give the others a bad name!

[Major Lord]

I ordered and received my Glendales' Garand Parade rifles. I suppose they would be fine for twirling around as toys, and they are marginally better than the "Davy Crockett cap gun" drill rifles out there, but I am a little disappointed. One would think that to Guard the National Colors, a rifle that at least looks like wood and metal would be desirable. (or plastic for an M-16) You could not even butt-stroke a hippie trying to burn old Glory with a plastic toy like this. I guess they will do for now.

Major Lord

[NIN]

I ordered and received my Glendales' Garand Parade rifles. I suppose they would be fine for twirling around as toys, and they are marginally better than the "Davy Crockett cap gun" drill rifles out there, but I am a little disappointed. One would think that to Guard the National Colors, a rifle that at least looks like wood and metal would be desirable. (or plastic for an M-16) You could not even butt-stroke a hippie trying to burn old Glory with a plastic toy like this. I guess they will do for now.

You got the same ones originally pictured?  (EDIT: These rifles? http://www.paradestore.com/detail.aspx?ID=415)

And you don't like 'em?

Hmmm, I guess I've been lulled for too many years by the "cheap wood and stamped steel parade rifles" that I found these to be fantastic rifles by comparison.  Certainly not the "real deal," but way, way better than the usual imitation.

[Major Lord]

Yes, those are the rifles. They are better than the flat-sawed planks that are out there, but they just are not  "weapons grade".  Maybe I can get some real dewatted Garands, but is would be a [darn] shame to weld up a working Garand to make neutered drill piece ( it might even be a sin, chaplains? Marines?) What this country need is a good M-16 HG rifle!

Major Lord

[NIN]

Yes, those are the rifles. They are better than the flat-sawed planks that are out there, but they just are not  "weapons grade".  Maybe I can get some real dewatted Garands, but is would be a [darn] shame to weld up a working Garand to make neutered drill piece ( it might even be a sin, chaplains? Marines?) What this country need is a good M-16 HG rifle!

Hmmm. Having drilled with an M-16, and done color guard with one, and also done color guard with an M-1, I think the M-1 is a much better "performance" rifle from a size & look standpoint.  The M-16 is all plastic and crap. Ugh.

Hauling a loaded M-1 around for a firing detail is a little, uh, "tiring," but it sure makes a nice *bark*...

Bummer that the Drill Americas are not what you expected.  Now I feel a little responsible for recommending them... 

[Major Lord]

I don't hold you responsible, not to worry!

I an ideal world, we would have an Honor/Color Guard rifle that looked like a rifle, and preferably, could even fire blanks ( you know, for salutes and mock executions of prisoners...) But I suspect that it would be pretty expensive to produce a good one. I know that they make good quality blank firing guns, but I have never seen anything except a lever action rifle . These Toy Garands will do for now, until we find the perfect rifle!

Major Lord

[Falshrmjgr]

I joined the Rifle Drill Team in my AFJROTC squadron when I was 13 years old.   Demilitarized M1 Garands with lead in the barrel.  Heavy?  Heck yes, but it makes you focus on performing drill correctly.  After four years, it didn't seem like anything.  Rifle exchanges, simple, complex spins, manual of arms;  all superior when performed with demil'd rifles.  My senior year the Old Guard did a performance near by, and we got to work with them for about 2 hours.  I thought their M14's felt light, and 2 of us were encouraged to apply for the Old Guard.  (There was not single move that they performed that any junior or senior on my team couldn't perform, although the bayonets took a few minutes to get used to.)   Look at the Old Guard, the USMC Silent Drill Team, the A&M Fish Drill Team.  That's the standard.  Don't adopt anything that won't let you get there.

We used to compete against squadrons who used the toy rifles, and frankly there was no comparison.  The light weight of the toys leads to tacky dance moves because you can toss them around like nothing.  Not only that, but the sound isn't right.

Lastly, there is a certain solemnity that comes with having actual weapons.  I must have done every Veteran's Day, Memorial Day, Parade, and/or Veteran's event there was for four years, whether as a Drill Team Member or Color Guard.  I would have been embarrassed to carry the toy rifles, regardless of how "good" they looked.  If it takes tired arms at the end of the day to pay respect properly, I'll pick it every time.

IMHO, demilitarized rifles are the only proper choice for an organization such as CAP.  Save the toys for the Marching Bands.

(Oh, and just for the record, M-16's are gawd-awfull due to the pistol grip.)

[baronet68]

IMHO, demilitarized rifles are the only proper choice for an organization such as CAP.  Save the toys for the Marching Bands.

Real rifles do tend to look really nice.  Our Color Guard uses two of my own 'temporarily' demilitarized Swiss K-31 rifles - originally purchased about 2 years ago for only $69 each.  Sadly, they have appreciated quite a bit since then and typically go for about $190 each today.

[Major Lord]

Falshrmjgr said that very eloquently! Baronet, Like you, we have been using surplus rifles that have been refinished and had the firing pins ground off, and the side folding Bayonets removed and the mount point ground down. Mosin Nagant model 44 carbines. Other than the straight bolt handle, the look a lot like mini-Springfields. I have felt a little guilty about using commie rifles, but the local Big 5 sold them to me for 49.00 each.

Major Lord

[NIN]

(snip)
IMHO, demilitarized rifles are the only proper choice for an organization such as CAP.  Save the toys for the Marching Bands.

(Oh, and just for the record, M-16's are gawd-awfull due to the pistol grip.)

Agree with that!  Ugh.  The M-16's rifle drill is just.. ugly...

While I'd love to get a couple of the ceremonial rifles (they give 'em to VFW & Legion posts, why not CAP?), obtaining a good de-mill'd rifle is generally not inexpensive. 

I will say this: those "Drill America" rifles are very solid, they're not cheaply made, and they're not light.  I've only carried a Garand for ceremonial purposes twice, but they seem to be "right in the ballpark."  If you're looking for a good "non-weapon weapon" choice, I still think they're it.

[baronet68]

...Mosin Nagant model 44 carbines. Other than the straight bolt handle, the look a lot like mini-Springfields. I have felt a little guilty about using commie rifles...

Major Lord

No need to feel guilty at all.  The Soviet Union was part of the Allies back when the Model 44 was adopted.   

[Tubacap]

Question for the masses.  Has anyone approached the VFW, Legion, Airborne, or anyone else who gets free rifles and asked for donations to the local squadrons?  If so how did you approach it, and what was the response?

[floridacyclist]

I found two links that some may find interesting or useful

http://www.odcmp.com/Services/Rifles/m1garand.htm

http://tri.army.mil/logistics/LE/LC-LEAD.htm

I'd be curious to hear anything back on those.

[NIN]

Question for the masses.  Has anyone approached the VFW, Legion, Airborne, or anyone else who gets free rifles and asked for donations to the local squadrons?  If so how did you approach it, and what was the response?

The problem is, those rifles belonging to the Legion, VFW, etc, belong to the Ceremonial Rifle Program and are really just on loan (its more or less a permanent loan) to those organizations.  They are not permitted to transfer those weapons to a 3rd party w/o the DoD's consent.


EDIT: http://www.tacom.army.mil/ceremonial_rifle/veterans.htm

We tried some years back, but the sticking point for us was a place to secure the weapons.  And then they said "We don't give rifles to CAP.."

[Tubacap]

I checked with the Army today, and US law is apparently strict enough that they can't even donate the rifles to the active Duty folks for ceremonial work, it is strictly LE and Veterans recognized veterans organizations.

[MIKE]

What about a possible Civilian Marksmanship Program angle?  Get CAP recognized through that via the existing NRA qualification standards or something?

Cadet A:  "How did you get that cool bling?"
Cadet B:  "I qualified on an M1... My squadron has eight of 'em and we shoot quarterly as a squadron activity."

[floridacyclist]

That was my first link above. They're not cheap, but possibly doable via a DDR grant or seperate CG/DT fundraiser.

[JayT]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=F9wR5M4v8KM

The M16 can look good in drill.