Modernizing the physical fitness program

[lordmonar]

Again....the slipper slope.   If our CP officers lack such integrity.....why are they not fudging their PT test now?
And if you know this is going on....why are you not doing something about it?

[Eclipse]

Again....the slipper slope.   If our CP officers lack such integrity.....why are they not fudging their PT test now?

Um...Honestly, I really wonder sometimes if you are in the same CAP as the rest of us, just refuse to
acknowledge the issue, or have been lucky enough because of your personal history and access to never
have encountered the issues most of us with the same tenure see as a matter of course.

And if you know this is going on....why are you not doing something about it?

Been there, done that.  At some point, people stop listening.

Seriously, "so what are you doing about it" is >not< a useful response, it's essentially a defensive acknowledgment.
Knowing a tire is flat is not the same thing as having the ability to fix it, and when you point it
out, the mechanic shouldn't say "well why didn't you fix it"?

When I had a say, I pressed the issue, and those in my AOR knew better then to fudge things,
including when I was an encampment commander where we tested all the cadets to grade
level and sent their eye-opening scores back to their CC's, generally to a response resembling a cricket.

Certain units get reputations for being "less then ethical" - all the cadets hit every promotion to the day their
entire careers (but never even try Spaatz), cadets with difficulty climbing stairs somehow clocked their runs
to the exact maximum time, etc., etc.

There are people carrying membership cards and wearing eagles and stars who are charged with
maintaining the integrity of the process and organization, and/or fixing it when they are aware of issues,
however as we have recently been told by a former BOG member, if leaders choose to ignore the rules,
there is little anyone can do about it.  Do you really believe that in an organization which can't even enforce
it's uniform regulations, and which has inconsistently trained leaders with the full spectrum of motivation
and initiative that there are plenty being "expedient" regarding cadet PT?

I personally know of recent instances where a commander decide it was too cold to run, so just passed everyone
who was there.  Issues were raised.  Someone like that isn't going to "not" do other dumb things just because
he got caught once.

So how about less "what are you doing" and more "accept the facts and the state of CAP today"?

[lordmonar]

Okay...so CAP is broke...it's aways hase been broke....it will continue to be broke.

Okay...I get it.

Problem.   Kids today don't get enough exercise.
Problem.   Kids don't join CAP because of fear of the PT test.
Problem.   Kids quit CAP because they can't pass out PT test.
Problem.   We can't help kids get enough exercise if they don't come to CAP.

Fix......remove PT as part of our promotion requirements.  Continue to require units to have a PT program.  Continue to require our cadets to participate in said program.

What's the problem?

[Eclipse]

Problem.   Kids today don't get enough exercise.
Problem.   Kids don't join CAP because of fear of the PT test.
Problem.   Kids quit CAP because they can't pass out PT test.
Problem.   We can't help kids get enough exercise if they don't come to CAP.
What's the problem?

Cite please.

IMHO, this is one more false premise used as the basis for major change that is unnecessary.
Like the idea that there are "too many FGOs and members promote too fast".

The >fix< is to work the actual program and recruit at a level where CAP gets "unbroke" so
that the opportunities and experiences flow like they should.

Seeing 3 1/2-motivated cadets in a slack-jawed line with two disconnected senior members in the
corner ignoring them while they do their "cadet stuff" is hardly the motivation for anyone to
step up and start doing something which is uncomfortable, even if it's necessary.

[lordmonar]

Seen it with my own eyes.   At my WAG I would say 20-30% of my perspective no-returns are because of their in ability to pass the curry test or their fear of doing the PT test.

[A.Member]

Seen it with my own eyes.   At my WAG I would say 20-30% of my perspective no-returns are because of their in ability to pass the curry test or their fear of doing the PT test.

Then they walked in the wrong door to begin with.

As stated earlier, we can't and shouldn't be all things to all people.  We want to develop leaders.  We should challenge our cadets; they'll answer.  I've seen it.

As Eclipse pointed out earlier, we need to move in the opposite direction from the entitlement society.  If they were so quickly to dismiss PT and were not willing to put out the effort, what else were they unmotivated to do?  Those that want to cherry pick the program requirements to meet were not likely to be long for the program to begin with.

I really see no reason as to why our PT standards should be any different from JROTC/ROTC.

[lordmonar]

I guess we are at an impasse.   I think we need to be taking in all the kids in america and turning them into leaders and good citizens.

You only want a select few.....okay.

I've had my say.

[Eclipse]

I think we need to be taking in all the kids in america and turning them into leaders and good citizens.

"All the kids in america" aren't interested in CAP, nor are their parents, and the PT standard is likely the
least of CAP's issues. I have personally witnessed units run like rec centers, with a mother hen looking the other
way so that "everyone can join and participate, and no one feels bad".  Cadets who really didn't feel like being there,
or care one way or the other, etc., etc.

They ultimate defeat their own purpose, because when they venture out from under the wing of the home unit, they can't
perform at the level of their peers, and many quit shortly after the reality sandwich.  It also trivializes and makes things
harder for those in the same unit who actually want to be there, but are disrupted by the many.

As it stands today, kids >capable< are expected to perform, those incapable can get medical notes to that effect and
participate.  We don't need more kids who are capable but want the rules changed to it isn't "so hard", especially
when you consider the relatively low expectations in the first couple of years.

[A.Member]

I guess we are at an impasse.   I think we need to be taking in all the kids in america and turning them into leaders and good citizens.

You only want a select few.....okay.

I've had my say.

We're a volunteer organization.  By definition, a volunteer opts in.  Our doors are open to everyone.   They make the choice as to whether they are going to commit to the program.  Right, wrong or other, not everyone is truly interested in what we offer.

[LSThiker]

If the changes happen....the standard will be "have you competed the Physical Fitness Assessment in the last 90 days".   There will not be a pass or fail.   

Actually, if the changes occur as per the white paper, there will be a pass (HFZ)/fail (not-HFZ) system:

After the Wright Brothers milestone cadets would be required to be in their HFZ to continue advancing. For new cadets and those that have scored in the Needs Improvement zone, a remedial fitness program would be available. Cadets who remain in the Needs Improvement zone after 3 months in the remedial program would be retained in grade until they are able to score in the HFZ.*

[lordmonar]

Thanks.   I missed that.   I still Ike it.   No more sliding scale based on rank.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Based on the 1985 report provided:

Curl-Ups:

Reliabilty 0 68 to 0 94

What does that mean, exactly? What's the real fudge factor?

Shuttle Run:

Equipment. Two blocks of wod, 2 in x 2 in x 4 in , and stopwatch Pupils should wear sneakers or run barefoted.

We don't allow cadets to run "barefoted". I know from personal experience that CAN make a difference.

If the scorer has two stopwatches or one with a split-second timer, it is preferable to have two people runing at he same time T

Yea, that won't fudge the split second times at all.

Reliabilty 0.68 -0 75

Mile Run:

Reliabilty 0.65 0.92.

Sit and Reach:

The subject clasps thumbs so hands are together, palms down and placed on the flor betwen lower legs; fet are close to vertical While legs are held flat on flor at knes the subject slowly reaches forward along the measuring line, keping fingers in contact with the floor

Uh...we make cadets do a "step box" Effectively, they can't "bend" as low because their hands are higher than not. So we don't do it as perscribed.

Reliabilty. 0.70 0 94

Sample size:

A total sample of 18,857 students from grades 1-12 participated in the 1985 testing Each student in thestudy population received a 1/2135 chance of being selected to participate in the 1985 testing program

So...we remove half of that for the first 6 grades. We're left with 9-10K students. Call it 1500/class or year? Also divide that by Gender.

Boys. It is interesting to note that only 1 boys out of 9,678 scored in the 85th percentile on any six test
combinations (0.1%). Our projection, ilustrated in the botom row, sugests that only 20,50 boys in the
United States would qualify :or a Presidential Physical Fitnes Award. Note that he numbers increase
dramaticaly at he thre test levels, reflecting a population estimate of 1,373,50 boys. It is also
interesting to note the'. 10,29,50 boys (49.9% or half) failed to score on any test at he 85th percentile.
Girls. Table 4.6 reports the girls' results on their six test modules. The girls results disclosed what some
would consider an interesting statistic, more girls than boys scored in the 85th percentile or higher
than boys. The population inferences are that 61,50 girls qualifed whereas only 20,50 boys would have
qualifed. Girls also reported a slightly higher percentage than boys when four or five tests were
considered.
More girls than boys, however, with one exception (one test), failed to score at he 85th percentile or
higher on the remaining combinations.

Interesting bit. Seems to show that kids can exceed in one or a few tests, but not ALL. Would go to the point of the fast runner OR strong upper body types.

Also found ONE reference to push-ups in the file provided, and it wasn't part of the test itself...

[LSThiker]

Based on the 1985 report provided:

Curl-Ups:

Reliabilty 0 68 to 0 94

What does that mean, exactly? What's the real fudge factor?

It is a statistical reliability coefficient.  Unfortunately, they are primarily used in social, psychological, and behavioral studies so I never use them.  However, in a nutshell, they measure how reliable a result is for a particular observation.  For example, height-weight correlation, which is considered fairly high.  Essentially, it is similar to a p value for significance in test interpretation (not necessarily similar in measurement or calculation).  From my understanding, the common standard today is usually 0.80, which is considered highly reliable.  I do not know if that same standard applied in the 1980s.  In the biological sciences, we commonly use p<0.05, but go back far enough and you will find the common p value is 0.1.  Today it is slowly moving towards p<0.01.  For more information, consult a stats book.

We don't allow cadets to run "barefoted". I know from personal experience that CAN make a difference.

Unfortunately, whomever transcribed the report did a very poor job, but it is spelled correctly in the report. 

Yes, barefoot can make a difference.  However, considering the test was conducted in the 1980s, there were still some schools albeit a lower number, especially in the poor and/or rural South, where students did not have shoes.  Also, not all students had shoes in the 1950s, 1960s, or 1970s.  While the test administrators probably knew there is a difference between barefoot and shoe, they probably had to make a concession.

Uh...we make cadets do a "step box" Effectively, they can't "bend" as low because their hands are higher than not. So we don't do it as perscribed.

It would be interesting to read the validity report from the 1990s.  I am curious if it was conducted the same way or if they changed how the test was performed and found similar data.  If I find it, I will post it. 

[LSThiker]

I really see no reason as to why our PT standards should be any different from JROTC/ROTC.

Do not know anything about the JROTC standards, but ROTC standards would not work for CAP.  They are the real military standards designed for 18+ year olds.  Trying to apply that to 12-17 is not going to work. 

[A.Member]

I really see no reason as to why our PT standards should be any different from JROTC/ROTC.

Do not know anything about the JROTC standards, but ROTC standards would not work for CAP.  They are the real military standards designed for 18+ year olds.  Trying to apply that to 12-17 is not going to work.

Agree they will not work for 12 -17; those would be the JROTC standards. 

ROTC standards should apply to cadets 18+...the standards are not unreasonable or unprecedented.

[Spaceman3750]

So I'm curious - how does your unit do the run test? Do you offer an option or do you only do one or the other? WIWAC my unit only offered the shuttle run if you failed the mile. I could pass 2 of the other 3 but never a run because by the time I failed the mile I was too tired to pass the shuttle. Also because I didn't/don't turn on a dime, but I always thought the mile had something to do with it.

[SarDragon]

Their choice. Most in my old unit did the run, and half the cadets typically finished behind the 55 yo olde fart.

[NC Hokie]

So I'm curious - how does your unit do the run test? Do you offer an option or do you only do one or the other? WIWAC my unit only offered the shuttle run if you failed the mile. I could pass 2 of the other 3 but never a run because by the time I failed the mile I was too tired to pass the shuttle. Also because I didn't/don't turn on a dime, but I always thought the mile had something to do with it.

We typically have cadets do both, starting with some stretching then doing the shuttle run before moving on to the mile.  In very cold weather, we'll only do the shuttle run, with a poor senior member freezing outside for the 10-15 minutes or so it takes to cycle everyone through.  The cadets?  They're lined up indoors and only come out when the previous runner is finished.

[LATORRECA]

    I was criticized for been to harsh on the cadet when they where doing crunches and push ups. Since I been in the USMC for the past 17 years and I went to a combat conditioning course. I made the cadet to do it right from the beginning.  For two straight years and having two senior members trained properly, my former cadets have performed amazingly proper around the wing and their legacy continue having fruits every way they go. 2 are Spaatz.

   The program is not broken and utilizing the presidential fitness standards is not the answer. They have lowered the standard so every kid can get a medal. What we need to do its train our CP officer right. The new senior CP have to go to the TLC and receive a class on how to conduct the CPFT properly. Standardized the nation CP, create a video on how to do the exercises right, under their guidance.

   When we do the IG inspections, make the CPFT part of the inspection grab two-three random cadets and have them to performed a PFT under the supervision of the IG and the wing CP director and the CP officer. If they do it wrong give them a warning and a make over PFT date. In order to correct their deficiencies.

GySgt Latorre

[Майор Хаткевич]

Nhq already has videos available...standards are in 52-18.