Enhanced Cadet Protection Policy for '14 - ROUND 2

[NIN]

We have a culture of "knock it off" to an extent. Wouldn't think twice to tell a SM that if I felt it was needed in terms of CPP.

Now you have a codified methodology against which to frame this discussion.

"Lieutenant, lets have a chat about these boundary violations of yours, mmmkay?"

followed by documentation (also codified) and a way to 'manage out' the ones who are too stodgy to comply or think that the rules don't apply to them, both categories of members who cause these problems over and over again.

[arajca]

I know I'm being a PITA - I pretty much agree with everything that's in the new regs and policies, I
just don't know how you get this into people's heads, especially the ones who don't actually
agree with the ideas to start with.

ClueX4?

[Eclipse]

Certainly an option, though against the concrete we deal with sometimes, not always effective.

[Johnny Yuma]

I know I'm being a PITA - I pretty much agree with everything that's in the new regs and policies, I
just don't know how you get this into people's heads, especially the ones who don't actually
agree with the ideas to start with.

They become walking boundary violations, and either get with the program, or find themselves on the outside looking in.

Problem solved, problem staying solved.

These so-called "boundary violations" will create more problems than they solve and will be the new "non renewal" tool for commanders to abuse. What if the cadet is over the age of majority and living on their own, we still gotta get Mommy and Daddy's permission to talk to them if I bump into them at Pizza Hut, sit in the booth next to them and talk CAP? From what i read that's a boundary violation. How about the 19 year old cadet taking college classes with the 20 yo senior member?

tell me why a commander should make it anyone's business as to who knew who before CAP? Seems like too often everyone's life story outside and away from CAP will have to be investigated before we determine if Captain Smith violated a boundary taking little cadet Gomer home, especially with CAP's long standing policy that neither Seniors nor cadets are CAP's liability when driving to and from meetings.

There also needs to be penalties for false allegations. If CAP, Inc. took abuse seriously a false accusation would get the accuser as fast a 2b as abusing a cadet.

it's beginning to look like the folks creating policy and looking for violations here are acting almost as creepy as the real creeps who actually abuse cadets.

[LSThiker]

These so-called "boundary violations" will create more problems than they solve and will be the new "non renewal" tool for commanders to abuse. What if the cadet is over the age of majority and living on their own, we still gotta get Mommy and Daddy's permission to talk to them if I bump into them at Pizza Hut, sit in the booth next to them and talk CAP? From what i read that's a boundary violation. How about the 19 year old cadet taking college classes with the 20 yo senior member?

I have a feeling that a lot of these rules will be largely ignored among cadets.  I have been more and more shifting towards making the cadet program end either at graduation from high school (and 18+ years) or simply 18 years of age.

Do not get me wrong, I earned my Spaatz at the age of 20, which I would not have been able to do if that were true. 

However, you need to differentiate between adult leader and adult member.  Adult leaders are only senior members, while adult members are senior members and cadets over the age of 18.  Also, I think they need to define the term cadet better.  Unfortunately, I missed the release of this document and did not submit any comments.

My points are:

In-Person Contact. Colloquially known as the "coffee shop rule." Adult members will not meet with cadets outside of official CAP activities without the prior approval of the cadet's parent. If in-person contact is necessary, a third person must be present, and the meeting must take place in a public space (e.g. restaurant, mall, etc.). In the case of relationships that existed prior to the cadet or adult member joining CAP (e.g.: next-door neighbor or family friend), the cadet's parent may exempt the adult member from this requirement. No special paperwork is needed to document any of these situations; oral acknowledgements from the parent(s) are sufficient.

So here you have adult member.  So this include cadets the age of majority, which is 18 for me.  The way I read this is that a cadet 18 years of age and a cadet 17 years of age cannot meet outside of CAP.    Also, what happens if it is a 20 year old cadet and a senior member.  Does this 20 year old cadet still need parental permission?  Or is he exempt because cadet refers to 17 and below here?  Are both cadets exempt because of 3-3 Cadet to Cadet relations?

Do not get me wrong.  This document is leaps and bounds over the old standard.  However, I think the way it is currently written, which I hope has changed, it creates a lot of ambiguity with the terms cadets, adult members, and adult leaders when it comes to that transition between 18 and college.

Seems like too often everyone's life story outside and away from CAP will have to be investigated before we determine if Captain Smith violated a boundary taking little cadet Gomer home, especially with CAP's long standing policy that neither Seniors nor cadets are CAP's liability when driving to and from meetings.

In this case, this has already been address as long as he uses his personal vehicle.

Note that ground transportation to and from CAP activities via member-owned vehicles is not considered part of official travel and is therefore conducted at the member's risk (see CAPR 900-5, The CAP Insurance & Benefits Program, §10).

[Eclipse]

Anyone with "cadet" on their ID is not an "adult member", so a lot of the assumptions above fall short.

The restrictions are in regards to the member status of "Senior" vs "cadet".

As to cadets ignoring them, they do so at their own peril if they like CAP participation.
I, for one, would immediately discipline anyone I caught violating these clear rules.

[LSThiker]

Anyone with "cadet" on their ID is not an "adult member", so a lot of the assumptions above fall short.

The restrictions are in regards to the member status of "Senior" vs "cadet".

As to cadets ignoring them, they do so at their own peril if they like CAP participation.
I, for one, would immediately discipline anyone I caught violating these clear rules.

Agree in principle, but it is not how the draft manual is written.

Adult Leader. CAP has a number of membership categories available to adults who serve in a supervisory and mentoring role over cadets. The term "adult leader" is used in this regulation to encompass senior members, cadet sponsor members, life members, and other members who lead cadets, but the term does not include cadet members.

h.  Adult Member.  For the purposes of this regulation, an adult member is an individual who has attained the age of majority, based on the jurisdiction of membership, and is assigned to any CAP membership category. College-age cadets, for example, are often adult members, depending upon the age of majority in a given jurisdiction.

[EMT-83]

In this case, this has already been address as long as he uses his personal vehicle.

Note that ground transportation to and from CAP activities via member-owned vehicles is not considered part of official travel and is therefore conducted at the member's risk (see CAPR 900-5, The CAP Insurance & Benefits Program, §10).

Cadet Protection rules don't apply in a POV? Good luck with that.

[Eclipse]

Anyone with "cadet" on their ID is not an "adult member", so a lot of the assumptions above fall short.

The restrictions are in regards to the member status of "Senior" vs "cadet".

As to cadets ignoring them, they do so at their own peril if they like CAP participation.
I, for one, would immediately discipline anyone I caught violating these clear rules.

Agree in principle, but it is not how the draft manual is written.

Adult Leader. CAP has a number of membership categories available to adults who serve in a supervisory and mentoring role over cadets. The term "adult leader" is used in this regulation to encompass senior members, cadet sponsor members, life members, and other members who lead cadets, but the term does not include cadet members.

h.  Adult Member.  For the purposes of this regulation, an adult member is an individual who has attained the age of majority, based on the jurisdiction of membership, and is assigned to any CAP membership category. College-age cadets, for example, are often adult members, depending upon the age of majority in a given jurisdiction.

This is a ridiculous double-think.  NHQ needs to decide if cadets "end" at 21 and just move on.

[LSThiker]

This is a ridiculous double-think.  NHQ needs to decide if cadets "end" at 21 and just move on.

Yup.  Like I said, for this reason I have begun leaning more towards ending the cadet program at 18.  It is a good break between high school and college (assuming if they attend) and it is a good point for where states consider them legal adults.  However, I know this topic has been beaten ad nauseum. 

[Storm Chaser]

Agree. In my experience, very few cadets remain engaged after turning 18 and/or graduating High School.

[a2capt]

There also needs to be penalties for false allegations. If CAP, Inc. took abuse seriously a false accusation would get the accuser as fast a 2b as abusing a cadet.

This is a -huge- problem in this organization. An incredibly -HUGE- problem.

Along with that, you certainly want issues reported, and if there is fear in the reporting, they may not report things that need to be reported for fear of running afoul.

But there really needs to be something done where reports are made up on baseless BS in a retaliatory nature because groups of cadre have learned how to "work the system" and get SM's that are perceived to be blockers in their "progress" kicked to the curb.  There's a few fairly high profile CAP people who've been hoodwinked by some really creative and smoozing moves and put ons..

[PHall]

Agree. In my experience, very few cadets remain engaged after turning 18 and/or graduating High School.

Yeah, that nasty little bugger called life tends to get in the way.

[MSG Mac]

A possible solution is to require all cadets to become FO's upon reaching the age of 18, with all the legal requirements applicable to other adults. Meanwhile, allow them the option of going through to the Spaatz Award. While simultaneously progressing in the Senior Member Program. Basically resurrecting the STP and ACT programs of the 60's and 70's

[BillB]

MSG MAC  That idea has been recommended up the food chain and nothing resulted. The main objection from cadets is the FO grade insignia. They contend that Senior Members consider them "super cadets" because the grade insignia doesn't show any Senior Member recognized grade. That can be resolved by going back to the old, discontinued USAF Warrent Officer grade insignia.
Cutting off the cadet program at 18 and not allowing the FO to continue to earn the Spaatz has always been a sticking point and a major reason for an 18 year old NOT to turn Senior. A large percentage of cadets earn the Spaatz after their 18th Birthday. It's a dis-service to stop a cadet from attempting to earn the Spaatz between 18 and 21 years of age. Thus there are two points to be addressed, first the grade insignia and second allowing an 18-21 year old FO to continue to progress in the cadet program while still working on Senior Member Professional Development.
One other possible problem. restarting the old OTC  or STP programs would require changes in many CAP Regulations, 52-10, 52-16, 39-1 and many Emergency Service regulations.

[Eclipse]

It's simple - you can't have things both ways, but instead of accept this, CAP wants to dance
around the edges and try to satisfy everyone, to the satisfaction of no one.

If society, and in many case the law, have decided that people are adults at 18, then so be it.
End the cadet program at 18 and move on.

If 18 year old butter bars are too much to handle, then raise the 18 requirements and leave it at that.

Stay in CAP from 18-21 as SMWOG.  Restrict certain duties to "over 21" such as command, finances,
property, and move on.

Done.

[Ned]

Sigh.  I've tried to stay out of this thread, but since it has veered back onto well-plowed ground, let me again point out a couple of things.

1.  No one has been able to articulate how having cadets in the 18-21 age range is a problem in the first place.  I appreciate some of you think that Wilson and Spaatz got it wrong when they established an outstanding and challenging cadet program that included cadets through age 21.  But what problem is it that we are trying to "solve" by taking a meat axe to our program?

2.  "Cadethood" and "adulthood" are unrelated concepts.  And never have been.  The age of majority, BTW, is not the same in every state, commonwealth, or other other place where cadet units are currently located.  The age of majority has changed several times in the US, and may well change again.  Ditto for voting ages, "ages of consent," etc.

Uncle Sam has cadets over and under 18 in each of his programs.  JROTC, ROTC, and each of the service academies.  Historically, USMA has had cadets as old as 40.  If Uncle Sam doesn't care about some artificial line at age 18, why should we?

High schools across the country have students over and under the age of 18.  Seems to work.  Same for colleges and universities.

There is simply not a problem with this particular aspect of our terrific CP.

Take all this wonderful thought and energy and turn it to solving some real CP issues.  Like funding.  Or recruiting in urban areas.

Or even the original topic of this particular thread.

[Eclipse]

1.  No one has been able to articulate how having cadets in the 18-21 age range is a problem in the first place.  I appreciate some of you think that Wilson and Spaatz got it wrong when they established an outstanding and challenging cadet program that included cadets through age 21.  But what problem is it that we are trying to "solve" by taking a meat axe to our program?

For the most past I agree with this, but if there's no issues, then why is NHQ creating
this new "mini-class" of membership - "Adult members are anyone over 18".

[LSThiker]

In-Person Contact. Colloquially known as the "coffee shop rule." Adult members will not meet with cadets outside of official CAP activities without the prior approval of the cadet's parent. If in-person contact is necessary, a third person must be present, and the meeting must take place in a public space (e.g. restaurant, mall, etc.). In the case of relationships that existed prior to the cadet or adult member joining CAP (e.g.: next-door neighbor or family friend), the cadet's parent may exempt the adult member from this requirement. No special paperwork is needed to document any of these situations; oral acknowledgements from the parent(s) are sufficient.

So here you have adult member.  So this include cadets the age of majority, which is 18 for me.  The way I read this is that a cadet 18 years of age and a cadet 17 years of age cannot meet outside of CAP.    Also, what happens if it is a 20 year old cadet and a senior member.  Does this 20 year old cadet still need parental permission?  Or is he exempt because cadet refers to 17 and below here?  Are both cadets exempt because of 3-3 Cadet to Cadet relations?

So Ned, since you are a legal guy, can you help me understand this better?  Obviously I know this is still just a draft and has no base until fully published.

[SamFranklin]

... why is NHQ creating
this new "mini-class" of membership - "Adult members are anyone over 18".

I think it goes to the bit about CPP applying to anyone who works with cadets, which is not just senior members. you have life members, cadet sponsor members, legislative members, aerospace members etc., so (maybe?) to make every odd duck fit into the reg, they go with "adult leader" as a catchall and go with "adult member" if you're talking about legal age.

g. Adult Leader. CAP has a number of membership categories available to adults who serve in a supervisory and mentoring role over cadets. The term "adult leader" is used in this regulation to encompass senior members, cadet sponsor members, life members, and other members who lead cadets, but the term does not include cadet members.

h. Adult Member. For the purposes of this regulation, an adult member is an individual who has attained the age of majority,   , and is assigned to any CAP membership category. College- age cadets, for example, are often adult members, depending upon the age of majority in a given jurisdiction.