On the state of cadet promotions

[Ron1319]

I feel that 80% of what I got out of the cadet program came after C/Col.  I had an opportunity to be a cadet commander again at a brand new unit.  I went to NCC as a team commander.  I served on executive staff at encampment.  I envisioned and help implement a 250-attendee SAR-Ex with over 100 cadets receiving training.  There is a laundry list of national special activities for high ranked cadets to choose from.  They have the ability to create units, create leadership opportunities, run events, and take on as large scale of endeavors as they could possibly dream up. 

The incredible misunderstanding of the cadet program of those being partially quoted, or paraphrased, has me astonished.  I do not know how much a broken opinion gets developed, and the only path I can see to undoing the nightmare is to grow our own Phase IV cadets to go off into the wing and set the example.  If I felt like the cadets that get to C/2Lt were continuing to grow as leaders, I wouldn't feel as horror struck by the lack of vision into Phase IV as I am.

[lordmonar]

If IACE is the /only/ reason you're staying in up to the earhart, you're doing it wrong.

(that said I agree that there should be additional things for cadets to do as they progress further)

No.....the CP offiers are doing it wrong.....not the cadet.

Having said that......I think we make it too hard IMHO.

[Ron1319]

Which part do you think is too hard?  I believe my cadet officers would agree that they can complete all of the cadet officer achievement requirements in about 5 hours.  I can take a survey if you would like.  That's about 45 minutes/week over the 8 weeks.  We could call it 8 hours and stretch it to an hour a week and I still wouldn't think it would be too much of a time commitment. 

[coudano]

If IACE is the /only/ reason you're staying in up to the earhart, you're doing it wrong.

(that said I agree that there should be additional things for cadets to do as they progress further)

No.....the CP offiers are doing it wrong.....not the cadet.

Having said that......I think we make it too hard IMHO.

really?
in terms of box checking there is nothing to it.
i've got cadet officers that are (almost) checking the boxes too fast, and are in danger of rank cranking.

[Ron1319]

The achievements without grade increase space the cadet officer achievements out enough that I think they naturally grow from one promotion to the next. I'm actually extremely impressed with the growth I'm seeing in the cadet officers so far as they've advanced from C/2Lt to C/Capt.  It's extremely encouraging. 

[lordmonar]

Really??

Then where are all the thousand and thousand of Spaatz cadets?

The statics don't support you.

Cadets see no incentive to move up.  They see it as to hard.  They see it as too complicated.

The would rather do other things instead of CAP.

Personally.......I would eliminate the "sustained" acheivements.  I would change the SDAs to be a done a "group at a time"...that is all the admin ones together, all the operations one and then all support positions.  I would change to performance part of the SDA to be more objective and have real operational requirments.

I would eliminate all TIG requirments through SSGT and would reduce TSGT through CMSGT to only one month.  I would keep 2d and 1st Lt at two month and make Capt, Maj and Lt Col three months.

I would make encampment staff a requirment for Maj.   I would make a NSCA a requirment for Lt Col.

[Extremepredjudice]

Be careful they are learning WHAT and it means, not memorizing stuff, and passing a test.

Most people seem to be saying 3-4 per year, it really depends on the phase. Phase I should be moving up quickly. I (hopefully, unless the c/cc decides to haze us) will be a SSgt by monday, less than 8 months in...
If you cadets want to get everything done before the 2 months are up; let 'em.

Phase III and IV should be moving slow and steady. I can't say much, just make sure they stay motivated. My squadron has a 1st LT who has been in for 5 years.... he stalled as soon as he got his mitchell.

[Ron1319]

Then where are all the thousand and thousand of Spaatz cadets?

We had six on my NCC team when I was team commander in '97.  I don't believe the requirements are significantly harder, now.

The statics don't support you.

Clearly, but I don't think it's because it's too hard.

Cadets see no incentive to move up.  They see it as to hard.  They see it as too complicated.

I don't connect those things.  I could possibly be wrong.  When you have a senior officer in a leadership position over Phase IV cadets who is of the opinion that there is nothing for Phase IV cadets to do in the program, there is something severely broken.  I'm having a hard time believing that it's fundamental to the existing program, and mostly a lack of leadership on the part of the cadet programs officers and a lack of Phase IV cadet leadership.  It would be a catch 22 if you can't find those able to inspire the promotion and growth in the new cadets.

The would rather do other things instead of CAP.

Maybe, although one of my C/Capt's who has been incredibly into debate on a national competition level for the last several years just quit to focus on CAP, CAC's and squadron meetings with intent of applying to be the next cadet commander.

I would change the SDAs to be a done a "group at a time"...that is all the admin ones together, all the operations one and then all support positions.  I would change to performance part of the SDA to be more objective and have real operational requirments.

The performance items are fairly specific.  The order is: Flight Commander, Admin, PAO, Leadership, Aerospace Ed, Ops, Logistics, Cadet Commander.  It seems fairly logical to me.  Multiple CACs are looking at SDA requirement revision, and the CAWG CAC is going to seek specific feedback on exactly what the requests for changes are.  However, perhaps except for cadet programs officers who can answer questions about the SDA requirements and understand the document, I don't see the problem.

I would eliminate all TIG requirments through SSGT and would reduce TSGT through CMSGT to only one month.  I would keep 2d and 1st Lt at two month and make Capt, Maj and Lt Col three months.

And have a program that could be completed in 15 months?  Have you really thought that one through?  The generally CAP Talk trend is to complain every time anyone mentions a cadet promoting at minimum time in grade about how they couldn't possibly be experienced enough or ready for the promotion.  There seems to be constant irrational fear of cadets having too much grade when the fundamental problem, I believe, is a lack of Phase IV cadet leadership to encourage growth, set the example, and ensure that their subordinates are promoting.

I would make encampment staff a requirment for Maj.   I would make a NSCA a requirement for Lt Col.

COS is a requirement, so you would eliminate that, or just the RCLS option?  We can consider the cost and logistics of that if you'd like.

[Ron1319]

Phase III and IV should be moving slow and steady. I can't say much, just make sure they stay motivated. My squadron has a 1st LT who has been in for 5 years.... he stalled as soon as he got his mitchell.

And how long has that cadet been a cadet officer?  Will you let the same thing happen to you?  Do you see the benefits of continuing to promote and grow as a cadet after you become a cadet officer?  Do you have any other cadet officers in your unit?

[Майор Хаткевич]

My promotion history:

Join: May 2003
C/Amn: May-Jun 2003
C/SSgt: Nov 2003
C/MSgt: May 2004
C/CMSgt: May 2005
C/2d Lt: Mar 2006
C/Capt: Mar 2007

Given the chance, I would have blasted through the program on minimum times. Then PT would have killed me. I barely passed the requirements with a new age for C/Capt, and by then I was pretty much out of the active program due to work come August 2007. I wanted to be a Spaatz cadet when I was an airman. Somewhere along the road I decided it didn't matter as much as the overall opportunities. I also realized I'm not going to cut in on the PT side. I planned on hitting C/Maj, since a lot of the people I looked up to made it to that point. Life got in the way.

BUT, while tracking down these dates, I found an old blog post, which I find amusing now, but seems like a common perception.

29 June 2005:

Next CAP meeting I am going to go to is the last week of July, because of vacation this next week and Honor Guard Academy the 2 weeks after! Well also because of this I will not become a Lieutenant until early September. For my Armstrong I just need to do my Speech, which I get to do the first week of august and then I need to mentor AeroSpace  (AE) and I can take my Mitchell and get my PT in and I will become a Lousy, good for nothing, junior officer. All the cool NCO status that you build up over a period of 2 some years is gone...you become an unexpirienced officer instead of a professional NCO. Big change. I mean right now I do as much as some Majors do, but once I get Lieutenant all I have know to be good is...BAD!. If you read leadership 8 then all you get out of it is that you have to become a talking person, instead of a DOing person. It is so badly written that some good Chiefs, become horrible officers because they take it overboard. The only Position that I think, that as an Officer i would like would be Flight Commander, because I get to work with actual people. Flight Sergeant, Element Leaders, the occasional element member. I guess that I am one of those Die-hard NCO's that would stay as such if they had a chance.

Give me some slack, I was 15, but I think it's a good view into the mind of a mid-teenager, and a mid-program cadet. Note also that I planned to have my Mitchell by September 2005. I had everything but the PT done for it by mid-August, including the Mitchell exam. For better or worse, I delayed and stalled and ended up being the First Sergeant at the encampment, where I was awarded my Mitchell.

[Ron1319]

It's interesting that you had the perspective to know that C/2Lt was a junior cadet officer as I believe that many California Wing cadets believe that there is no greater achievement than C/2Lt.

[Майор Хаткевич]

It's interesting that you had the perspective to know that C/2Lt was a junior cadet officer as I believe that many California Wing cadets believe that there is no greater achievement than C/2Lt.

There are two types of "bad" endings in CAP. C/CMSgt 4life and C/2d Lt 4life. A lot of the time, it is the one and the same. The lifer Chief gets pushed into his Mitchell, and doesn't progress from there. Some strive for the Mitchell, for its military benefits. Some probably think a salute to a 2d Lt is no different than a Captain or a Colonel.

Lots of reasons, most are quite bad.

At the time it seems I understood that in the book, the C/Officer has different duties, and is technically the new guy.

But the new guy still outranks 50% of the structure, and STILL retains that knowledge, just has to apply it differently. THIS I didn't seem to grasp at the time.

[coudano]

The statics don't support you.

For the most part they don't support you either, nevertheless...

Cadets see no incentive to move up.

This is the core of the situation.
Generally speaking, being a higher ranking cadet officer is not viewed by cadets in general as 'cool' enough to work hard for, on a variety of fronts.

If i've said it once, i've said it a thousand times.
Cadets don't quit CAP because it's hard.  They quit CAP because it's irrelevant.

They see it as to hard.  They see it as too complicated.

The only thing they have to do that they didn't have to do in phase 1 and 2 is
a) staff duty analysis
b) now attend a residence rcls or cos

How hard or complicated can that be?
That's bull.

I'll give you that a lot of new cadet officers are confused and intimidated by the SDA.  However, the SDA is neither difficult nor complicated.  As I explain to my new officers at our OBC, were you able to do an about face on your first try?  Answer is no.  it's a foreign skill/procedure.  You had to learn it.  After you practice a few times, you learn it and it becomes easy and eventually even mindless.

Once my cadet officers "get it" (about the end of achievement 10 or so) they start knocking out SDA's in a couple hours, no big deal.

The would rather do other things instead of CAP.

This is probably the biggest single reason out there.  But it roots above, there is no incentive to move up.
CAP fails miserably to compete with jobs, cars, girlfriends, school, and sports.
CAP needs to fix that.


**Furthermore, they are simply unmotivated to continue to progress.
Combination of lack of carrots, and lack of sticks, I suppose.
As well as that many cadets, from the moment they join, see the Mitchell as the finish line.
That's setting yourself up for failure before you even start.

Personally.......I would eliminate the "sustained" acheivements.

What does that do to the time in phase?
I think we already discussed that phase 3 and 4 are backwards...
Phase 3 right now is 6 months, and phase 4 is a year (plus any time they spend as cadets past C/Lt Col --for some this is YEARS).

That should be the other way around.  Phase 3 should be a year (just like phase 2)
And Phase 4 should be 6 months plus extra time after C/Lt Col.

A cadet should be a "CGO" (phase 3) all the way until they pin Major.

I see below that you reduced the number of achievements but increased the time in grade at each rank.
I can get on board with that (but maybe with different timeframes)

I would change the SDAs to be a done a "group at a time"...that is all the admin ones together, all the operations one and then all support positions.

Yah I can go with that.  A1, A4, A5/7, etc.
Of course you know that if I ran the world i'd just kill the SDA entirely, and make cadet officers plan and execute squadron, group, and wing activities instead.  Of course that's not easier or less complicated...
But they get a heck of a lot more out of it.  And so does everyone else, too.

I would change to performance part of the SDA to be more objective and have real operational requirments.

Like I said (see above)

I would eliminate all TIG requirments through SSGT and would reduce TSGT through CMSGT to only one month.  I would keep 2d and 1st Lt at two month and make Capt, Maj and Lt Col three months.

If and only if you had a way to improve the quality check,
Bottom line, for pretty much every cadet I've had, they have NEEDED that full year (going at full speed) in phase 2, to really and truly master directive leadership.  I can think of 2 exceptions in my life, and they were both prior cadets in other organizations.  Everyone else needs the time.  So cut the minimum time if you want, but better up the quality expectations to go along with it.

The end result, i'm afraid, you're going to wind up with a lot more people cranking rank, and a lower standard that we even have now.

As we are right now, with 40 months start to finish at top speed, we ALREADY see cadets going too fast, and having their rank drastically outpace their capability and maturity.  It's important to produce quality leaders, not just TSA award numbers.  If award numbers is all we care about, then we can make the program REALLY easy, and get that done real quick.

I would make encampment staff a requirment for Maj.   I would make a NSCA a requirment for Lt Col.

COS/RCLS already there, no?
What about 1st Lt and Capt?

[Ned]

CAP fails miserably to compete with jobs, cars, girlfriends, school, and sports.
CAP needs to fix that.

Yet another personal failure of our senior leadership.  I take full responsibility.

It is so simple!  All we need to do is to tweak the CP a bit and make it so attractive that cadets would prefer to forgo money, cars, any sort of education, sports, and especially the distractions of dating, flirting, and romantic relationships of any kind in order to focus their training to become Dynamic Americans and Aerospace Leaders.

CP will grow by leaps and bounds.  We will finally achieve the 100% retention we have been aiming for.

I should have thought of it myself.  I am so ashamed.


Now that we have a clear vision of our future, we need to work out a few of the tactical details. 

Hmmmm.  We could . . . . ..  No, that won't work.  Maybe we could, ah . . . . ..


This could be trickier than I thought.

[BillB]

Ned....I'm glad to see you realized you screwed up the cadet program   LOL
Seriously, the fault if any lies not with National but rather the Wing, or more so the Squadron level. Rarely do we find that Squadrons have activities on a regular basis or that cadets are interested in. Except for Encampments and Cadet Competition, Wing level activities on weekends are even less often found. Oh sure ther may be a Model Rocketry Competition or Color Guard Academy, but whatever happened to the so called Survival Schools? Wings with Groups may have a weekend Bivouac, but training varies from just BCUT to UDF training. The UDF training is useless when cadets are noit allowed to take part in actual searches.

[a2capt]

Not sure about cadets not being allowed outright to participate in ES missions, however I will say that between school, and .. school, cadet ES participation surely isn't like what it used to be.

Where they would drop off a ground team comprised of cadets at a mountain with machetes to go hacking to a crash site ..after having plucked them from school to do it.

But also, there's a set bunch of ICs that seem to be anti-cadet, and when you have some sarex planners who use cadets for not much more than trash emptiers and coffee couriers, they seem to find interest elsewhere.

The best cadets in ES tend to be the ones who's parents are involved, as they become team members and then a household can launch a UDF team, or in some cases, a ground team at a moments notice.  But mix in a sarcastic IC who acts as if no one is as good as them, practically belittling participants on the radio, and you have quite an anti-motivational factor that is second to none.

[Ron1319]

It is so simple!  All we need to do is to tweak the CP a bit and make it so attractive that cadets would prefer to forgo money, cars, any sort of education, sports, and especially the distractions of dating, flirting, and romantic relationships of any kind in order to focus their training to become Dynamic Americans and Aerospace Leaders.

Sometimes I feel like I must have been superhuman having been able to do all of those things at once.

On ES and activities.. (cadet activities only listed)

6-7 Aug - Squadron Bivouac (14 cadets from the squadron attended, first one in years, super safe, tents near a remote airport)
19-21 Aug - PCAM Air Show (in wine country), typically cadet flight line duties and fun at an air show (2 full van loads plus a cadet's parent had to drive, we were supporting their event)
26-28 Aug - CAWG Conference/CAC (only really affected 3 cadets, but still important)
3-4 Sept - Group Sar-ex that the cadets are finding out how to get involved in.  We'll see how many can attend.  Many, many of them are UDF Trainee status and should be able to go out.
4-5 Sept - "Labor Day Bizarre" Big fund raiser.  This one isn't AS fun, but we're making it somewhat fun by staying overnight beforehand and having social time that evening.  We'll make $1000 for the unit that day.
10-11 Sept - Capital Air Show -- big, big event that the cadets all love.
17 Sept - Fundraiser parking cars for a car show at the hall that we have our meetings at.  Again, not inherently super fun but a great fund raiser.

There was actually something planned for the one weekend that wasn't booked but it was a group activity and there were not enough cadets signed up so it was cancelled.  There is another group "training academy" on the 24th of September where I'm instructing at a TLC course.  It was supposed to include a cadet command course, but that was the one that was cancelled in early August.

[Extremepredjudice]

Phase III and IV should be moving slow and steady. I can't say much, just make sure they stay motivated. My squadron has a 1st LT who has been in for 5 years.... he stalled as soon as he got his mitchell.

And how long has that cadet been a cadet officer?  Will you let the same thing happen to you?  Do you see the benefits of continuing to promote and grow as a cadet after you become a cadet officer?  Do you have any other cadet officers in your unit?

He has been an officer for about a year and a half.
We have a c/capt and a c/lt.col. That just left for college.

[Ron1319]

I'm much more interested in the answer to my other two questions.  One more, have you ever been briefed on the SDA process so that you know that it's not scary and fairly straight foward once you get to C/2Lt? 

[NCRblues]

One of the larger reasons for lack of promotion i have run across is slotting for activities.

In my local area, lets say for encampment, cadets are slotted for staff. We always seem to end up with C/Capt. Snuffy in command of encampment squadron 1 and C/Lt. Col Jim Bob as flight commander.

I have spoke to several cadet officers who have stopped at C/2nd Lt. or C/Capt. and they all say them same thing. To them, they see no reason to go on up the chain. They have as much of a chance to be cadet commander at an encampment at C/Capt, as they do at C/Lt. Col. I am in the process of trying to change this where possible, but it is an uphill battle....