On the state of cadet promotions

[Ron1319]

I have a lot of thoughts on this matter, but I have decided to offer some questions to start the thread.

1) What do you consider to be an appropriate rate of promotion for cadets?
2) Does that rate change depending on whether a cadet joins CAP at 12 years old or 14 years old?  16?
3) Do you have examples of high ranking phase IV cadets at your unit?  In your group?  In other words, do you or the cadets in your unit have Phase IV leaders to look up to?
4) Are there fewer high ranking cadets now than there were in your past?
5) Are cadets sticking with CAP less often after 18 years old now than they were in the past?
6) Do you believe after answering these questions whether we need to make fundamental changes either in our approach to CAP or the program to improve these situations?

Thank you for your consideration.  These are not intended to be rhetorical, as I am genuinely VERY interested in the answers.  Please include where are you located and at least whether you are a cadet or senior as I am new here and do not know very many other people involved in these forums.

[Eclipse]

1) What do you consider to be an appropriate rate of promotion for cadets?
3-4 per year, no less than 2, regardless of phase.
2) Does that rate change depending on whether a cadet joins CAP at 12 years old or 14 years old?  16?
Not in my experience, though older cadets who join with a specific goal, such as Mitchell before enlistment tend to charge harder.

3) Do you have examples of high ranking phase IV cadets at your unit?  In your group?  In other words, do you or the cadets in your unit have Phase IV leaders to look up to?
Unit - N/A, Group, yes, but not enough, and not distributed evenly.

4) Are there fewer high ranking cadets now than there were in your past?
Not that I see, the cycles are about the same overall in my wing, the peaks just move around.

5) Are cadets sticking with CAP less often after 18 years old now than they were in the past?
Not that I see.  Again, there are peaks and valleys, but the overall line has been almost flat.

6) Do you believe after answering these questions whether we need to make fundamental changes either in our approach to CAP or the program to improve these situations?
No.  The primary issues are with the general lack of volunteerism and community spirit coupled with far too much competition for adolescent attention, with a dash of schools pushing harder on free time.

[PA Guy]

1) What do you consider to be an appropriate rate of promotion for cadets?

3 promotions per yr.

2) Does that rate change depending on whether a cadet joins CAP at 12 years old or 14 years old?  16?

No, the promotion rate should be the same for all.  The proposed "fast burner" programs have not worked.   

3) Do you have examples of high ranking phase IV cadets at your unit?  In your group?  In other words, do you or the cadets in your unit have Phase IV leaders to look up to?

No, there aren't enough Phase IV cadets participating on a regular basis in squadrons.  Most are tied up in college or jobs.

4) Are there fewer high ranking cadets now than there were in your past?

No.  Like all things in CP it is cyclical.

5) Are cadets sticking with CAP less often after 18 years old now than they were in the past?

I haven't noticed any big changes.  If anything maybe a few more.

6) Do you believe after answering these questions whether we need to make fundamental changes either in our approach to CAP or the program to improve these situations?

Overall the cadet program is in the best shape it has ever been.  Most of the materials coming from NHQ/CP are top notch and heads above the cut and paste materials published 10-15 yrs ago and before.  The problems arise from a lack of trained seniors to conduct the program.  Do we need to make fundamental changes?  No, I don't think so.

I'm an ex cadet senior member in PCR.

[coudano]

1) What do you consider to be an appropriate rate of promotion for cadets?

Most of my cadets go 3-4 months.  I find this to be reasonable.
Every 2  months really is unreasonable for -some- cadets...   a few can pull it off though.
Twice a year is the reg standard minimum...  if a cadet fails to promote after 6 months, we start administrative action against them that leads to counseling (6 months), demotion or suspension (10 months), and then termination for cause (failure to progress)(12+ months).  I take this very seriously, and consider it key to the program.  Unfortunately most of CAP does not.

2) Does that rate change depending on whether a cadet joins CAP at 12 years old or 14 years old?  16?

I don't "push" my 12 year olds.  I let them go at whatever speed they go at.  However, they *are* required to meet minimum standards...  (twice a year)

3) Do you have examples of high ranking phase IV cadets at your unit?  In your group?  In other words, do you or the cadets in your unit have Phase IV leaders to look up to?

Nope.  My squadron hasn't produced a phase 4 cadet since...   2002 or so.  And those guys stagnated at Captain...
We don't really have a group, effectively.  There may be a handfull of phase 4 cadets in the wing.  Not sure exactly how many there are, but that says something, doesn't it?  You'd think you'd know who they all are, based on their awesomeness, and regular contribution.  If there were more than 6 i'd be surprised.

4) Are there fewer high ranking cadets now than there were in your past?

I don't have any actual stats, but my general sense is that:  not really.
A 'typical' squadron of 20 cadets probably has an officer or two.  or they have had one recently.  or they will have one before long.  That's the way it's been since i've been a DCC and it's the way I remember it being WIWAC

5) Are cadets sticking with CAP less often after 18 years old now than they were in the past?

No, I lose *A LOT* of people at the end of high school, to places like the military, college (academies/rotc), and even just career tracks.  More than half of my cadets that stay with CAP after their 18th birthday flip to senior member and become FO or TFO until their 21st birthday.  The few that do stick, usually do well, however.

6) Do you believe after answering these questions whether we need to make fundamental changes either in our approach to CAP or the program to improve these situations?

I don't know...
I shovel cadets through my program roughly in "batches".
I have 3 Lt's right now, who all phased through the program roughly together.

Same for the block of NCO's
and the block of airmen (actually i have a block of older airmen, and a block of newer airmen that just joined)
They (loosely) year-group through the program, and of course, cadets attrit out along the way.
But basically if the Mitchell is supposed to be 10%
Then a squadron of 20 cadets ought to have
2 mitchells
maybe like 5 NCO's
and 13 airmen...

give or take.


If I could wave my magic wand and solve any uncrackable problem right  now, it would be how to keep C/2d Lt's engaged, actively, and advancing their personal careers, and the goals of the squadron after earning the mitchell.  Historically, mine have either got the mitchell and quit for college/military/life, or get the mitchell and then stagnate there and spin their wheels.


**edit:  I'm a deputy commander for cadets in missouri wing.  former c/lt col.

[jeders]

I'm a former Mitchell cadet who is now working with the CP in TXWG.

1) What do you consider to be an appropriate rate of promotion for cadets?

I like to see cadets promote as rapidly as they are capable of (read they have to also be mature enough, not just check the boxes). This usually ends up at around once every 3 months. I have some who have not promoted in nearly 7 or 8 months, and I'm currently working with them to find out why and to get them promoting.

2) Does that rate change depending on whether a cadet joins CAP at 12 years old or 14 years old?  16?

Not really. We don't push the younger ones quite as much as the older ones, but we always stress the importance of progressing in the program in order to get the most out of it.

3) Do you have examples of high ranking phase IV cadets at your unit?  In your group?  In other words, do you or the cadets in your unit have Phase IV leaders to look up to?

No, no, and no. GP 1 of TXWG is very sparse, so we have mostly Phase 1 and 2 cadets with a few Phase 3s.

4) Are there fewer high ranking cadets now than there were in your past?

More.

5) Are cadets sticking with CAP less often after 18 years old now than they were in the past?

Nope.

6) Do you believe after answering these questions whether we need to make fundamental changes either in our approach to CAP or the program to improve these situations?

I think that the changes that the National CP Team is already making are going to be a big positive change. Other than that though, what we've done in the past has worked to produce multiple AF Academy cadets and generally successful people. If that's not success in the program, I don't know what is.

[N Harmon]

1) What do you consider to be an appropriate rate of promotion for cadets?

I consider 3 or more promotions per year through phases I and II, and 1 or more promotions through phases III and IV to be the minimum appropriate rate for cadets. I make the distinction because some of the achievements in the later phases do not include promotions.

2) Does that rate change depending on whether a cadet joins CAP at 12 years old or 14 years old?  16?

The age at which the cadet joined does not affect the expectations placed upon them, however their present age could, not to mention their individual capabilities. Some cadets excel in aerospace, others in leadership. No two cadets are alike, even twins.

3) Do you have examples of high ranking phase IV cadets at your unit?  In your group?  In other words, do you or the cadets in your unit have Phase IV leaders to look up to?

Not at present. We had an Eaker cadet graduate to senior membership a few months ago. Our next highest cadet is in phase III.

4) Are there fewer high ranking cadets now than there were in your past?

We have had more high ranking cadets in the past, and we have also had fewer.

5) Are cadets sticking with CAP less often after 18 years old now than they were in the past?

It is hard to judge because some cadets go off to college or the military and we do not know how active they remain in CAP. However we are finding more cadets are staying in the unit past age 18, which may be related to the economy, or may not.

6) Do you believe after answering these questions whether we need to make fundamental changes either in our approach to CAP or the program to improve these situations?

No.

Please include where are you located and at least whether you are a cadet or senior as I am new here and do not know very many other people involved in these forums.

I am a former C/Lt Col, presently a senior member Captain in the Monroe Composite Squadron, in Monroe, Michigan.

[Ron1319]

OK, my turn.

1) What do you consider to be an appropriate rate of promotion for cadets?

I agree with the previous poster who said something to the effect of "as rapidly as is right for them."  For me that was one achievement every two months pretty much until I left for college where I lost a little bit of time as a c/Maj or c/LtC before getting my Spaatz.  I joined just before turning 15 years old.   

2) Does that rate change depending on whether a cadet joins CAP at 12 years old or 14 years old?  16?

By rate, I didn't mean what the book says.  I meant my (your) personal expectations for the cadet.  I expect a 16 year old to consider the academic material that is challenging for a 12 year old to be borderline trivial.  We have a 16 old female cadet who is taking college classes.  She is finally promoting regularly because she now is able to compare the CAP academics to her college material and understand that it is relatively simple. 

Therefore, I expect most 16 year olds to be able to promote (achieve?) at least once every 2-3 months (16-24 weeks).  Put in perspective, that means that a cadet who is 16 years old and is now a c/CMSgt should be at least a c/1Lt and probably c/Capt 12 months from now.  Therefore, I don't understand why we would have so few Phase IV cadets. 

3) Do you have examples of high ranking phase IV cadets at your unit?  In your group?  In other words, do you or the cadets in your unit have Phase IV leaders to look up to?

Not yet, but we're about to.  I'm predicting our first Spaatz cadet from the group in January or February 2012.  He just got c/Capt and is the first in the group for a while.  I have 3-4 more cadets that I expect to follow shortly after.  We lit the fire and now they're all pushing each other.  I credit drill team and CAC for bringing them together so that they can push each other.

4) Are there fewer high ranking cadets now than there were in your past?

OMG, yes.  From the Spaatz Master List:

1112   Darren Makela   04 May 1992   OH
1133   Brian Merrick   14 Sep 1992   OH (my first cadet commander)
1163   Rebecca Ausprung   13 Apr 1993   OH
1211   Joshua Springman   02 Jun 1994   OH
1212   Vincent Cyran   02 Jun 1994   OH
1260   David R. Smith   31 May 1995   OH (2 cadet commanders after me at my original unit)
1267   Heather Cross   15 Aug 1995   OH
1295   Derek M. Britton   18 May 1996   OH
1296   Devon M. Britton   18 May 1996   OH
1299   Johnny L. Adams   02 Jul 1996   OH (my 2nd cadet commander, before me.)
1319   Ronald R. Thompson   12 Feb 1997   OH (my middle initial is D, I've emailed twice about that)
1350   Laura E. Thompson   26 Jan 1998   OH (my sister who is also part of the squadron here in California and talked me back into CAP)

Five or six of us were on the NCC team in 1997 (and two future Spaatzen) and all worked together frequently.  This is only to illustrate that my CAP experience had lots of diamonds in it.  I'm struggling to figure out why that isn't the case everywhere, and I think it may have to do with complacency.

5) Are cadets sticking with CAP less often after 18 years old now than they were in the past?

I don't know.  This CAWG squadron now has three cadets over 18 and has never had any in the past.  I think we'll retain all three of them, and have more in the future.  I don't think they had examples of older cadets and I think that just being told it was OK and that we'd done it is helping.

6) Do you believe after answering these questions whether we need to make fundamental changes either in our approach to CAP or the program to improve these situations?

I do.  Strongly.  I think what I'm seeing in the previous responses is solid evidence of people accepting a cyclic nature to CAP.  Why would we accept that?  What about CAP would lend itself to that?  We had solid meeting attendance throughout the last year.  My CAP experience in the past did not show meeting attendance to be cyclic on a micro scale (meeting to meeting) and I can't imagine what would cause the nature of a squadron to require that it die back to regrow.  As long as we're training replacements -- future cadet and senior leaders -- there should be no need for this?  I'm envisioning not only phase IV cadets in the next 12 months, but more after that and more after that.  Why would I spend my time mentoring them if my goals and intent were any less?

The business that I am in was historically cyclic.  I think that most people in the business that I am in consider it cyclic.  They believe that sometimes it will be strong and other times business will be weak.  I've built my business immune to that and we're pretty solid all of the time.   Why wouldn't we construct a CAP squadron the same way?

I have a couple more points.  If we were to assume that 10% of cadets who join CAP get their Mitchell awards, then 2 of 20 now is a failure to meet that 10% because you've had attrition along the way.  You have probably had to go through 40 cadets to get those two cadet officers and that's actually 5%. 

One of my challenges here has been trying to effect a paradigm shift.  If c/2Lt is the highest ranking cadet that anyone has vision of, then c/2Lt has a certain amount of "unattainability" to it.  My super chart here says 18 months to Mitchell, which hardly makes it seem unattainable to me, and I see that as the first step towards becoming a senior cadet officer, not the goal.  Being a senior cadet officer isn't for everyone, but how many are being left behind because of complacency?  There are numerous cadet NCO's in the unit I'm in that have been members for more than four years.  It's taken us a year, and we're starting to see them promoting.  We're not yet seeing them bring the new cadets along with them as well as I would like, but we're working on that.

I had to look up complacency to ensure that it means what I think that it means:

–noun, plural -cies.
1.
a feeling of quiet pleasure or security, often while unaware of some potential danger, defect, or the like; self-satisfaction or smug satisfaction with an existing situation, condition, etc.

This is illustrated most perfectly by the answer I received from a now-c/1Lt who was a c/SMSgt when I first came to the unit and asked, "Where are all of the cadet officers?"  I got a rather smug, "We have a great NCO program here."  I think that the cadets will be better served in terms of life-changing growth by the opportunities they will have with three diamonds as their goal, not a single silver pip.  It amazes me that everyone in cadet programs (and some of the former c/LtC posters in this thread) is not as fired up about this as I am with as many examples of units with only a cadet officer or two and so many with none.  I'm equally astonished that not one response to this thread has been "Yes, we have two c/Col's in the group and our unit has been without a Spaatz Cadet for a couple of years, but our c/LtC is testing next month and will be able to be cadet commander and then an advisor in the next couple of years."

One more point -- when a cadet goes away to college, they don't disappear.  I had an opportunity to be a cadet commander again during engineering school, and the majority of my drill team participation was while I was "away" at college.  In truth, I was about an hour away, but to me it seemed like I'd gone away to college.  I've had some very astonished looks and epiphany moments when talking to cadets lately just from saying that.  It was like that hadn't occurred to them before.

[Eclipse]

So...where have you been?

[DC]

I have a lot of thoughts on this matter, but I have decided to offer some questions to start the thread.

1) What do you consider to be an appropriate rate of promotion for cadets?
2) Does that rate change depending on whether a cadet joins CAP at 12 years old or 14 years old?  16?
3) Do you have examples of high ranking phase IV cadets at your unit?  In your group?  In other words, do you or the cadets in your unit have Phase IV leaders to look up to?
4) Are there fewer high ranking cadets now than there were in your past?
5) Are cadets sticking with CAP less often after 18 years old now than they were in the past?
6) Do you believe after answering these questions whether we need to make fundamental changes either in our approach to CAP or the program to improve these situations?

Thank you for your consideration.  These are not intended to be rhetorical, as I am genuinely VERY interested in the answers.  Please include where are you located and at least whether you are a cadet or senior as I am new here and do not know very many other people involved in these forums.

1) 3 - 4 times per year. A few more mature cadets can handle more, and those that cannot sustain this at least in the first two phases tend to quit after a year or so anyway. 

2)It depends. I don't expect a huge difference, but older cadets tend to be a little more mature and can handle faster advancement.

3)Not in my squadron currently, but there are several in my group, especially in the larger squadrons.

4) Not really...

5) Again, not really. I have found that most cadets remain cadets when they hit 18. The majority stay active, or maintain a cadet membership, even if they are not going to meetings regularly. Very few choose to convert to SM status at 18.

6) Not really. An increased minimum promotion time (say, 90 days) wouldn't hurt, but if the cadet program leaders in the squadrons are doing their jobs right it shouldn't matter.

[N Harmon]

I think what I'm seeing in the previous responses is solid evidence of people accepting a cyclic nature to CAP.  Why would we accept that?

We accept it because our experience shows that demand for our program is not static. That a program equal in every way will attract a lot of youth sometimes, and other times very few. And we have to be realistic about how much effort we put into drumming up interest during those low times, and the diminishing returns that come with that.

It is a simple matter of numbers. We all have X number of hours per week to spend planning and executing a cadet program. The more hours we spend recruiting, the less hours there are for improving our program execution. We have all seen squadrons that look really good on the outside, and then barely function on the inside; they tend to be full of inactive cadets. Nobody wants that.

The business that I am in was historically cyclic.  I think that most people in the business that I am in consider it cyclic.  They believe that sometimes it will be strong and other times business will be weak.  I've built my business immune to that and we're pretty solid all of the time.   Why wouldn't we construct a CAP squadron the same way?

What business is that? I happen to work in the banking industry as a computer analyst. Our business is very cyclic, largely dependent on economic conditions and interest rate markets; little of which we have any control over. So what we do is spend the good times preparing for the bad times. We do things like improve capitalization, diversify our loan portfolio, and expand our market.

Similarly in CAP, when interest in the cadet program is low we prepare for times when it will be high again. We concentrate on building leaders who will lead the influx of new cadets a few years down the line.

I guess what I am saying is there is a difference between complacency, and being realistic about the things you can control while mitigating the effects of things you can not. There is also the question of whether cadets taking longer now to complete the program is really a problem. I think you should judge our program by the quality of individual who exits it,  and not whether they exit with stripes, pips, or diamonds.

However, if you have ideas on how to improve things, we're all very interested in reading them.

[coudano]

Ron, are you *SURE* you aren't running a promotion mill?
I'm not saying you are, just seen that sort of thing before.

Just because a 16 year old can master 12 year old reading material doesn't mean that 16 year old has mastered the phase skillset.  And until they master that set (whether they've passed all their tests or not) they won't promote into the next phase (not in my squadron anyway).  Even some sharp, older cadets, i've found, can master the academics and marching, but still have trouble with things like values and respect.  In these cases, they need time to adjust to standard.  It's also important to me that cadets manage each other's careers, and motivate each-other.  It's not me driving my cadets to promote, it's them driving each-other, which inherrently takes more time and doesn't always work as well.

I mean I could "make high ranking cadets" all day and night long, if I wanted to.
Running cadets through the checkboxes as fast as they can possibly be pushed is pretty mindless.
But that's not the mission of the cadet program.  The cadet program needs to be producing people with real capabilities, and some level of mastery of defined skillsets.  I definitely trade quality of cadet for quantity of cadet, and quantity of promotions.  And I wouldn't have it any other way.

[Eclipse]

The reason it is cyclical is because we have no fixed influx of cadets.

BMT in any service runs like a clock because they have a separate command filling the funnel - we have the same people
filling the funnel and working the pipes.

Further, cadets are first and foremost, kids, so summers aren't a big time to be starting anything - we usually get them in the Spring as school winds down, or Fall as they are joining "other" and meet back up with their friends.

The higher-speeds tend to cluster because those cadets so inclined, usually, have strong family structures and friends who like the same things, so they all go a long for the ride, including mom & dad.  One year the unit is a Spaatz factory, two years later they are struggling to keep the doors open because the parents were only in it for the kids.

A couple of other points - attending a tech school an hour away is not exactly "going away to college" - we have cadets and seniors who commute farther than that on meeting nights.  Kudos to you for staying active, but that isn't the same as packing up your life and moving to another state where you don't know anyone and have 12 other things competing for your attention.

When they go away to college, actually go away, you generally lose them, either in the real sense that they drop CAP, or in the practical sense that they aren't at your meetings.  In either case, even if they join another unit, they are gone from "your" program, and no longer a factor.

The other thing is that it appears you did exactly that - made Spaatz and then left CAP for a prolonged period, and when you came back it was in another wing.  How are you different from all the other cadets who do the same thing every year?
Namely take what they can from CAP and then high-tail it for a decade or two?

I am only making these pointed comments because the tone of your response to your own questions is such that you
are surprised no one else "gets" how to run the program the way you do.  Yet outside the last year, which is not enough time to even see the cycles, let alone re-mediate them, you've been gone.

[coudano]

Another thing i'd like to point out is that your unit according to your sig has 62 cadets in it,
which statistically speaking compared to CAP overall is monster-huge.  That sort of unit allows economies of scale that smaller units can't touch.

There are *a lot* (vast majority) of squadrons out there with a dozen cadets.
Some with even fewer.
When I took over the squadron that I have right now, there were TWO cadets.  That's it.

For two reasons mainly:
1)  A lot of squadrons are in rural areas, and there simply aren't that  many people around to join CAP, even if you maximize your draw from the community.

2)  There is a maximum number of cadets that a unit can sustain based on the number of senior members willing to work with cadets, and *most* squadrons can't get or sustain "a lot" of senior member support.  I prefer a ratio of 1:6 but you can get away with a few more if your senior members are being "superman".  The big problem with that is when superman leaves, moves away, takes a job at wing, or whatever, then the squadron collapses into the void left behind.

[Bluelakes 13]

The "nature" of the cadet has changed over the last 10 years.  When I joined I would say close to 50% of the cadets were military inclined.  CAP was a stepping stone to ROTC/AFA/etc.  Today, I would say it's closer to 10%.

Regarding rate of promotion, unfortunately, the answer is "it depends".  I've had cadets where they promoted every two months without skipping a beat (and were able to take on the responsibility without a problem). Now this is rare.

If a cadet joins later (15+) they generally promote faster because they can absorb the material and responsibility faster than a 12 year old.

When I was unit CC, I had several Level 4 cadets, a couple are still with the squadron, although will be 21 soon.  And they were/are great leaders.

College is the biggest obstacle to cadets remaining active after 18.

I do not see how these answers point to opportunities to improve the program.

[BillB]

One answer to cadets moving on to college. Start a Squadron with flights at each major university in the Wing. This allows cadets to inter-react and maintain progress through the cadet program. This was done years ago in Florida and the Squadron produced more Spaatz awards than the rest of the Region combined during an 18 month period. While most of the flights are small, the fact that they are able to meet and study with other cadets operating under a single charter number has shown a worthwhile effort. Most college age cadets don't like to join local squadrons in communities where the universities are located. By organizing a flight it allows the cadet to be among their peer group and they are more at ease rather than being involved with 12-17 year old cadets.

[Ned]

One answer to cadets moving on to college (. . .)

I've always wanted to start wing e-squadrons for full time college students.  With some aggressive mentoring, cadets can continue to be challenged and progress.  They participate with their home unit during the summer, but meet on-line during the academic year.  Pod-cast AE and leadership lectures from notable figures and current ACSC students.  On-line safety briefs; allow the college cadets in turn to do some remote mentoring of cadets in units that lack PIII and PIV cadets; etc.

We might even be able to get in-residence SOS or ACSC students to mentor the e-squadron cadets if we give them a bullet on their OER or some sort of academic "atta-boy"

And we coordinate with the local unit as necessary for things like CPFT.

[coudano]

One answer to cadets moving on to college (. . .)

I've always wanted to start wing e-squadrons for full time college students.  With some aggressive mentoring, cadets can continue to be challenged and progress.  They participate with their home unit during the summer, but meet on-line during the academic year.  Pod-cast AE and leadership lectures from notable figures and current ACSC students.  On-line safety briefs; allow the college cadets in turn to do some remote mentoring of cadets in units that lack PIII and PIV cadets; etc.

We might even be able to get in-residence SOS or ACSC students to mentor the e-squadron cadets if we give them a bullet on their OER or some sort of academic "atta-boy"

And we coordinate with the local unit as necessary for things like CPFT.

Crap ned, that sounds better than MOST of the -in person- squadrons i've seen...
Let's just go there with the whole program...

[nesagsar]

One answer to cadets moving on to college (. . .)

I've always wanted to start wing e-squadrons for full time college students.  With some aggressive mentoring, cadets can continue to be challenged and progress.  They participate with their home unit during the summer, but meet on-line during the academic year.  Pod-cast AE and leadership lectures from notable figures and current ACSC students.  On-line safety briefs; allow the college cadets in turn to do some remote mentoring of cadets in units that lack PIII and PIV cadets; etc.

We might even be able to get in-residence SOS or ACSC students to mentor the e-squadron cadets if we give them a bullet on their OER or some sort of academic "atta-boy"

And we coordinate with the local unit as necessary for things like CPFT.

I think you just wrote the strategic vision statement for 2015.

[A.Member]

One answer to cadets moving on to college (. . .)

I've always wanted to start wing e-squadrons for full time college students.  With some aggressive mentoring, cadets can continue to be challenged and progress.  They participate with their home unit during the summer, but meet on-line during the academic year.  Pod-cast AE and leadership lectures from notable figures and current ACSC students.  On-line safety briefs; allow the college cadets in turn to do some remote mentoring of cadets in units that lack PIII and PIV cadets; etc.

We might even be able to get in-residence SOS or ACSC students to mentor the e-squadron cadets if we give them a bullet on their OER or some sort of academic "atta-boy"

And we coordinate with the local unit as necessary for things like CPFT.

I very much appreciate Ned's knowledge and outside the box thinking on this topic.  However, I don't see it as being effective.   

The real issue is that we have a program that applies the same tools and concepts to 12 year olds as it does to 19 - 20+ year olds.   There is a world of difference between the two that needs to be addressed.  This of course is not a new argument but at 17/18 years old, a cadet may move away from home for the first time in their life.   It's a whole new world with a whole new set of rules and experiences to be gained.  Their lives are so different.  As stated in previous posts, they may go off to college, full class load, ROTC, etc.  They may begin working full-time for the first time ever.  Many possibilities and competing priorities.   They're ready to move to that "next level".   And while creating virtual squadrons and making material available electronically may aid in accessibility, it doesn't change the material itself and the fundamental fact that our program does not really support this change in their lives.  The program must have perceived value to them at this new stage.

It's an interesting conundrum because in some respects, isn't that what we've been helping prepare them for?  ...To go out into the real world with their learned skills and become leaders - hopefully with an aerospace focus/awareness?

[Ned]

The real issue is that we have a program that applies the same tools and concepts to 12 year olds as it does to 19 - 20+ year olds.   There is a world of difference between the two that needs to be addressed. 

Of course they are different. 

That's why we don't have many 12 year olds in Phase IV nor too many 20 year olds in Phase I.  Our program does indeed appreciate the critical changes that take place and adjusts the curricula as the cadets progress.

This of course is not a new argument but at 17/18 years old, a cadet may move away from home for the first time in their life.   It's a whole new world with a whole new set of rules and experiences to be gained.  Their lives are so different.  As stated in previous posts, they may go off to college, full class load, ROTC, etc.  They may begin working full-time for the first time ever.  Many possibilities and competing priorities.   They're ready to move to that "next level". 

I was with you right up to the end.  Of course things change significantly for everyone after high school, whether it is college, the military, or full time employment.

But any suggestion that our CP is somehow only suitable for middle and high school students is short sighted and inaccurate.  I certainly agree that a relatively small percentage of our cadets are over 18, but it is an age group where we do some of our best work.  This is where we see future leaders truly blossom as cadet commanders, activity commanders, CAC leaders, and as mentors to younger cadets.

I don't mean to minimize the conflicting priorities that older cadets face, but we have a great deal to offer our 18-21 year olds, whether they are college freshmen or the assistant manager at Radio Shack.

(It is kinda like the competing priorities that every one of our seniors face, isn't it?)

And while creating virtual squadrons and making material available electronically may aid in accessibility, it doesn't change the material itself and the fundamental fact that our program does not really support this change in their lives.  The program must have perceived value to them at this new stage.

Again, non-concur.  Advanced cadets do advanced work, entirely suitable for where they are in their lives. 

My modest suggestion was to address the accessibility issues you identified.  It is hard for a cadet going away school to engage and participate.  Local units near major universities have trouble integrating "visiting cadet officers" effectively without negatively impacting their home-grown troops.  I've seen it work well, but it is a difficult issue.

I'm just trying to get the best of both worlds - keep our older cadets engaged where possible, which should modestly increase our ability to retain them as they turn 21.  This in turn helps provide more experienced CP leaders for the next generation of cadets who would benefit from our training.