NCC 2011

[Ron1319]

I saw a write-up with some proposals to change NCC and responded to National HQ regarding those proposals, and there were some announcements about some uncertainties pertaining to next year's competition.  I'm wondering if anyone has a link to more information about these, if there is a public discussion of them somewhere, and if anyone has any details on NCC 2011 other than the date?  As we're starting once-a-month practices at this point, I'd like to be sure I'm in the loop if there are changes taking place. 

Ron

[Spaceman3750]

At this point, focus on kicking butt at wing and region competitions first. You have a long road ahead of you to NCC and some maybe kinda sorta political issue is something that you can deal with when you're riding home from region competition with a trophy (if this issue that you're talking about materializes at all).

You might want to think about practicing more frequently than once a month once the holidays have passed .

[Ron1319]

It is interesting that you assume ignorance.  We fielded a team at NCC last year (2010), in other words we were already there.  I was Great Lakes Region team commander as a cadet in 1997 and we took third place.  Unfortunately, there were no fellow competitors at the wing or region level (CAWG and PCR), but we did respectably well at NCC for the cadet's first time at a real competition.  We will do much better next year.  I am well aware of how to schedule drill team practices and what is required to place in the competition.

So back to the politics, please.  We need to know what to prepare for.

Our innovative routine: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LILQO6yso4

Ron

btw -- sorry, I thought I had posted in the correct category.  I'm not sure how this doesn't qualify as a NCSA question.

[coudano]

I was hoping for an official announcement on what the source material for the academic events is going to be,
considering that we have multiple versions of cadet textbooks concurrently in use right now.

Ideally before the wing comps, which are starting real soon, yeh

[Bluelakes 13]

Ron,

There were some proposals and the CAC kicked around some ideas, but nothing has been officially changed.  What specific "announcements about some uncertainties " are you referring to?

I am sure any changes to 52-4 would not take effect till the following year's competition.

Are you asking for anything specifically?

Major James Kalemis
Public Affaris Officer
National Cadet Competition

[Ron1319]

http://www.capmembers.com/file.cfm/media/blogs/documents/Innovations_Layout___Reduced_141CF7A7CFF32.pdf

Specifically:

"A recent survey showed that fewer than 5% of cadets participate in NCC at any echelon. While drill
team and color guard are outstanding cadet activities, our NCC program is serving only a tiny segment
of cadets.We need to reform NCC so that more units will want to participate in this fabulous program.
Why is participation so low? Our conversations with people from around the nation lead us to believe
there are three main reasons.
(1) NCC is incredibly expensive in terms of equipment and uniforms.
(2) The time required to practice is too much, if the unit wants to engage in other activities as well.
(3) The program does not fit well with "Tuesday night," and in many wings, the drill team is a winglevel
program, not a squadron one.
To counter these difficulties, we propose NCC rules would be adjusted as following.
Inspection. Today, inspection is a measure of fundraising and tailoring. Instead of standing for an inranks
inspection, cadets would be given a shirt on a hangar, some accoutrements, and a card outlining
that hypothetical cadet's achievements. Fifteen minutes later, the judges would inspect that uniform.
Volleyball. Put a 6'2", twenty year old young man up against a 5'1" eighty pound twelve year old girl
on a volleyball court and you'll have an incredible mismatch. That little girl will destroy that guy! Instead
of volleyball, cadets would participate in a team leadership problem (like what is used at COS).
Innovative. Training for the innovative drill is incredibly time consuming and difficult to do well unless
every cadet attends every practice.Moreover, USAFA drill team veterans tell us that even the Academy
foregoes innovative drill for those reasons.We would remove innovative drill from the competition,
but make the standard drill more challenging by placing obstacles on the drill field.
Super Teams. If we want more squadrons to get involved in NCC, we need to prohibit wing-level
"super teams." The cadets of a drill team would have to come from no more than two squadrons.
The measure of success would be the total number of cadets participating in NCC at the wing level or
higher.Within two years, we'd expect to see at least 25% of cadets doing so, opposed to the 5% now,
for a five-fold increase."

I'll post my response here for comment:

"Inspection. Today, inspection is a measure of fundraising and tailoring. Instead of standing for an inranks inspection, cadets would be given a shirt on a hangar, some accoutrements, and a card outlining that hypothetical cadet's achievements. Fifteen minutes later, the judges would inspect that uniform.

As the team escort for the NCC team last year and having a leadership role in the squadron, I have observed a dramatic change in uniform wear by the cadets who took part in NCC 2010.  Their influence them helps the rest of the group and raises the bar for many more cadets than just those on the team.  There is a dramatic difference between knowing the regulations and seeing a nearly perfect uniform on yourself.  Our team budget to do reasonably well in inspection was around $50/cadet.  They are motivated to fund raise and have more new items for next year's inspection, but most of our feedback was related to preparation and not to tailoring and things that cost more money.  They learned from the experience.  Small stain, strings that they didn't find, gig lines not being right and tie lengths not all being matched perfectly are examples of items that they will improve upon for next year based on the judge's feedback.

Volleyball. Put a 6'2", twenty year old young man up against a 5'1" eighty pound twelve year old girl on a volleyball court and you'll have an incredible mismatch. That little girl will destroy that guy  Instead of volleyball, cadets would participate in a team leadership problem (like what is used at COS).

At NCC, the small girls were very useful to the team by fulfilling their place on the team.  They were setting, they were bumping incoming serves, hitting some very well placed serves over the net when it was their turn to serve, and they were actively playing and doing their part.  I believe very few of them felt like they did not have a vital part to play.  A team leadership problem is almost impossible to evaluate.  Any evaluation would be either dangerous due to the "race" nature of completing due to time or entirely subjective and impossible to prepare for.  The cadets from our team are very much looking forward to working on their volleyball skills and being a more competitive force in the event next year.

Innovative. Training for the innovative drill is incredibly time consuming and difficult to do well unless every cadet attends every practice.Moreover, USAFA drill team veterans tell us that even the Academy foregoes innovative drill for those reasons.We would remove innovative drill from the competition, but make the standard drill more challenging by placing obstacles on the drill field.

Standard drill is intended to be a display of excellent drill movement and technique.  The current card format allows the team to display knowledge and perfect execution of both the standard and less used moves in the drill manual.  The teams pride themselves on this knowledge.  Any good team commander could easily avoid some obstacles.  A good innovative drill routine does not require all of the cadets to be at every practice.  Many teams have cadets join late, only a couple of weeks before NCC, and learn the innovative routine for performance at competition in a few hours.  We have several alternates who learned spots in the routine and could fill in as needed for cadets who missed practices.  Perhaps decreasing the time limit for innovative would help make it easier.  2.5 minutes from report in to report out would simplify the event as the higher placed teams at NCC did have very long routines.

Super Teams. If we want more squadrons to get involved in NCC, we need to prohibit wing-level "super teams." The cadets of a drill team would have to come from no more than two squadrons.

NCC 2010 was incredibly useful for us to help bring the group together.  We were able to have cadets from squadrons working together and building friendships who had never worked together before, and will carry those working relationships into group activities and into the other parts of the program in the future.  This rule would lead to is super squadrons where cadets would all transfer to the same unit to participate in NCC as a team, or squadrons that had meeting nights on different nights at different locations to satisfy the requirement.  This is the single biggest concern that I have about the proposals as it would defeat my primary purpose for wanting to put together a drill team.  Squadrons in Northern California seldom work together on any activities, and we've already seen very large improvements during group activities in the cadet staff being more cohesive and having more applicants due to the drill team friendships.
"

[Bluelakes 13]

I thought that publication died at the vine.   

It's basically a summary of what the CAC came up with.  For any of those proposals to be implemented, they would have to follow the normal regulation change process.  Would take months, if not years.  And scuttlebut is that they are not too popular.

Interestingly, I agree with all your comments.  Lack of funds is never a reason for anything.  Volleyball is skill and strategy - size and weight is not as irrelevant.  I am not a big fan of innovative (although we rocked in '06 and '07), but I know of no good substitute.  And that is not how to solve the SuperTeam issue (presuming that is an issue) -we were already short a drill team this year, this would not help.

[Spaceman3750]

It is interesting that you assume ignorance.  We fielded a team at NCC last year (2010), in other words we were already there.  I was Great Lakes Region team commander as a cadet in 1997 and we took third place.  Unfortunately, there were no fellow competitors at the wing or region level (CAWG and PCR), but we did respectably well at NCC for the cadet's first time at a real competition.  We will do much better next year.  I am well aware of how to schedule drill team practices and what is required to place in the competition.

So back to the politics, please.  We need to know what to prepare for.

Our innovative routine: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LILQO6yso4

Ron

btw -- sorry, I thought I had posted in the correct category.  I'm not sure how this doesn't qualify as a NCSA question.

I apologize, I did not mean to imply that you were ignorant, though I suppose that is how it came across.

[Ron1319]

No problem.  I'm glad the hear that the consensus is that this is dead.  I hope the National CAC didn't waste very much time on it and that the survey they speak of was small.

[Ron1319]

Onto other matters.. why isn't finding ways to encourage NCC participation a primary goal of CAC's at all levels?  I particularly like the idea of recommending different rules for group competitions.  I realize the NCC manual only pertains to the national competition.  What about adding a chapter for lower level competitions.  I don't think that volleyball and innovative NEED to be a part of group level competitions.  What about making them specified as entirely optional at group and wing levels?  That's just one idea, anyone have other ideas? 

[a2capt]

Should not the contest at the top level be fed by the same contest at the lower levels?

It would be a craptacular failure if the team got all the way to National only to just completely suck at something because there was no need, thus no emphasis, at the levels on the way up.


There is a certain amount of team work involved in a good volleyball game, and spontaneous intercommunication, perhaps in ways similar to taking queues from each other like drill and color guard movements do.

[Flying Pig]

It is interesting that you assume ignorance.  We fielded a team at NCC last year (2010), in other words we were already there.  I was Great Lakes Region team commander as a cadet in 1997 and we took third place.  Unfortunately, there were no fellow competitors at the wing or region level (CAWG and PCR), but we did respectably well at NCC for the cadet's first time at a real competition.  We will do much better next year.  I am well aware of how to schedule drill team practices and what is required to place in the competition.

So back to the politics, please.  We need to know what to prepare for.

Our innovative routine: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LILQO6yso4

Ron

btw -- sorry, I thought I had posted in the correct category.  I'm not sure how this doesn't qualify as a NCSA question.

Your routine looked good, but right about the 2 minute mark things started to get pretty sloppy with the heels.  And the team at the very end of a silent routine had to do 3 right steps??  What was that about? 

[Ron1319]

Your routine looked good, but right about the 2 minute mark things started to get pretty sloppy with the heels.  And the team at the very end of a silent routine had to do 3 right steps??  What was that about?

*tongue in cheek* Awesome!  I'm ecstatic to hear that another Californian is working on an innovative routine with a team and can do better.  I'll see you at wing comp.  I was hoping we'd have competition this year. 

If you were looking for a real answer, they decided that they were off center every time they did the routine and the rules say you have to be back centered when you report out.  The cadets decided to add the right steps.  It's their team and I wasn't going to stop them or tell them they had to do it somewhere else in the routine.  I believe that was the first time they had done the routine in front of more than 5 people.  I think they did fantastically well considering they didn't know what innovative drill was prior to last January.

After we see you at wing comp, if any of your top cadets would like to join us at region comp, we'd be happy to have them try out for a spot on the team.  Seriously.

Should not the contest at the top level be fed by the same contest at the lower levels?   It would be a craptacular failure if the team got all the way to National only to just completely suck at something because there was no need, thus no emphasis, at the levels on the way up.

In our case, because of the perception of difficultly fielding a team at lower levels, we had almost no competition on the way to NCC.  At group, the other team was thrown together with no practice before the competition.  At wing competition the team that went to NCC the previous year decided not to field a team and we had no competitors.  Region competition did not happen for drill teams, only for color guards.  We didn't have to go. 

The first time we played volleyball against another team was at NCC.  I love volleyball.  I loved playing volleyball at NCC competitions as a cadet.  I don't need to be convinced that volleyball is great.  Earlier in the thread I spent a while defending to national HQ why I think volleyball should stay in the competition.  Innovative has always been my FAVORITE part of the competition.  If not having innovative or volleyball at wing competition meant that we had three teams to compete against at each level, I'd take the competition over an argument that the contest at the top level should be fed by the same contest at lower levels.  That's my only point.  Something has to change because one region was not represented at NCC last year and our region was under prepared not from lack of trying but simply from lack of perspective from not having had an NCC seasoned competitor prior to NCC. 

I assure you, they'll be better at every event next summer at Wright State.  They're still fired up from NCC 6 months ago.

[Flying Pig]

Your routine looked good, but right about the 2 minute mark things started to get pretty sloppy with the heels.  And the team at the very end of a silent routine had to do 3 right steps??  What was that about?

*tongue in cheek* Awesome!  I'm ecstatic to hear that another Californian is working on an innovative routine with a team and can do better.  I'll see you at wing comp.  I was hoping we'd have competition this year. 

If you were looking for a real answer, they decided that they were off center every time they did the routine and the rules say you have to be back centered when you report out.  The cadets decided to add the right steps.  It's their team and I wasn't going to stop them or tell them they had to do it somewhere else in the routine.  I believe that was the first time they had done the routine in front of more than 5 people.  I think they did fantastically well considering they didn't know what innovative drill was prior to last January.

After we see you at wing comp, if any of your top cadets would like to join us at region comp, we'd be happy to have them try out for a spot on the team.  Seriously.

Should not the contest at the top level be fed by the same contest at the lower levels?   It would be a craptacular failure if the team got all the way to National only to just completely suck at something because there was no need, thus no emphasis, at the levels on the way up.

In our case, because of the perception of difficultly fielding a team at lower levels, we had almost no competition on the way to NCC.  At group, the other team was thrown together with no practice before the competition.  At wing competition the team that went to NCC the previous year decided not to field a team and we had no competitors.  Region competition did not happen for drill teams, only for color guards.  We didn't have to go. 

The first time we played volleyball against another team was at NCC.  I love volleyball.  I loved playing volleyball at NCC competitions as a cadet.  I don't need to be convinced that volleyball is great.  Earlier in the thread I spent a while defending to national HQ why I think volleyball should stay in the competition.  Innovative has always been my FAVORITE part of the competition.  If not having innovative or volleyball at wing competition meant that we had three teams to compete against at each level, I'd take the competition over an argument that the contest at the top level should be fed by the same contest at lower levels.  That's my only point.  Something has to change because one region was not represented at NCC last year and our region was under prepared not from lack of trying but simply from lack of perspective from not having had an NCC seasoned competitor prior to NCC. 

I assure you, they'll be better at every event next summer at Wright State.  They're still fired up from NCC 6 months ago.

Relax brother.  I went to NCC three times as a cadet on the Pacific Region Drill Team.  Placed 2nd all three years, two years we placed first in innovative drill.  I made the comment as someone who has been where you are.  All four years we were the only team who had a completely silent drill routine.  As a cadet I taught a course at CAWG cadet conference on how to start a winning drill team.  Its interesting you assume ignorance.

I guess I should add....

NCC 89, 91, 92.  In 1990 we lost Wing to Sq44.

[Ron1319]

I am relaxed.  I didn't assume ignorance, but I didn't see your team at wing comp last year

[Flying Pig]

Nope you sure didnt.  But that doesn't mean I don't know what I am talking about either.

[tsrup]

http://www.capmembers.com/file.cfm/media/blogs/documents/Innovations_Layout___Reduced_141CF7A7CFF32.pdf

Specifically:


Super Teams. If we want more squadrons to get involved in NCC, we need to prohibit wing-level "super teams." The cadets of a drill team would have to come from no more than two squadrons.

^^^ This is the biggest load of crap I have ever seen.

While Im sure it is well intentioned, It basically rules out any possibility of and smaller wings or squadrons from participating. 

We have a wing wide team because that is the only way to get enough cadets together to form a drill team. 

[Ron1319]

Nope you sure didnt.  But that doesn't mean I don't know what I am talking about either.

Alright, I'm sorry I was a bit of an a**.  The other thread has me a bit riled up.  I think we'd get along great in person and I'd love to meet you some time.

[Ned]

^^^ This is the biggest load of crap I have ever seen.

While Im sure it is well intentioned, It basically rules out any possibility of and smaller wings or squadrons from participating. 

We have a wing wide team because that is the only way to get enough cadets together to form a drill team.

I guess you don't get out much.  I've seen much larger loads of crap that this.

But I wrote that particular boatload because of a few significant concerns:

1.  NCC is one of the largest single expenditures of CP money in all of CAP.  (Airfares for over a hundred folks, lodging, meals, facility rentals, etc. amount to over a hundred thousand dollars)

2.  The whole point of NCC is to support the cadet program by providing a venue for healthy competition in the same skills units perform at the local level, thus reinforcing the local units.

3.  If the expenditure of this huge sum of money does not in fact support the local units, then we should take a close look and make sure we are being good stewards of the taxpayer and corporate funds being expended.

4.  "Super teams" by definition do not support local units.  They appear, in fact, to actually hurt local units by absorbing a considerable amount of time of the best and brightest cadets from multiple units.  Time that those cadets could otherwise be devoting to their home units. 

The essence of the proposals was to alter the compeition to make it really and honestly accessible to average and above-average units.  When we set the bar so high that local units cannot effectively participate because of costs, logistics, and personnel resources then we have failed in our original purpose and we may even be spending a fair amount of the taxpayer's money on a program that touches less than 5% of our cadets during their careers.

If we cannot structure NCC in a way that allows local units a decent shot at participating, we may be better off discontinuing the activity and redistributing the funds to things like encampments, uniforms, and AEX materials that each unit would benefit from.

Is it still a boatload of crap?

Ned Lee

[tsrup]

The "super teams" part was the only item I was referring to. 

I fail to see how the proposed "2 squadrons" maximum would encourage participation from everyone.

Sure you'd be doing that for larger squadrons, but smaller ones would be left behind in the endeavor. 

Let me break it down barney for you.

SDWG has 9 squadrons, with active cadet participation ranging from 2-15 cadets.  Two squadrons in the state have 10 or more active cadets. 

So basically it's either the two large squadrons make a team, or we play, "who gets to be the squadron to join one of the larger ones". while the others are left behind.  I fail to see how that benefits a local squadron at all.

All that will happen, is an influx of cadets "transferring" to the participating squadrons, and that definitely doesn't help a local unit in the least bit.


Some squadrons are bigger and smaller than others, the proposed "super team" item is ignorant of that.

Is it still a boatload of crap?

Yes



If I could change anything about the NCC rules, I would allow cadet officers to participate in color guard competition, and remove the requirement for the accompanying senior member to be 25. 
CAP goes through great lengths ensuring that it is grade that matters, and not age, but they put in regulatory dribble like that.

[Ron1319]

I'm all for keeping color guard for the NCO's only but I'd put a 1-time limit on participation at a region or higher level competition.  I suspect NCC participation was better prior to the color guard competition and even a dozen cadets staying c/CMSgt's for an extra year just to have another shot at NCC on the color guard when they could be captains in that time is way too many. If 6 of those 12 pulled together drill teams instead, drill team participation would be much higher.

Pulling the group together with drill team I see as a huge benefit and I'd halt NCC participation if the cadets were abandoning their home units for drill team. 

[Ron1319]

Ned, I really want to know what you think about my suggestion to provide guidelines to make group and wing competitions more accessible.  Since the goal isn't to get more cadets at NCC, how about opening up lower levels to fewer cadet teams, or competitions with fewer events?

I also really want to say that pushing more color guard cadets to drill teams and allowing more spots for new cadets in the color guard competition would probably go a long way towards improving the number of participants.  I'd also like guidelines for lower competitions to allow for group and wing competitions to potentially allow for more teams to enter.  In other words, if I want to compose three color guard teams from the group, with cadets from 6 units, can I send all three teams to wing comp, or can my group only send one team?  One options has 4 or 5 cadets at wing comp and the other has 12-15.  Remember I believe I already have my 13 cadet officers lined up for the drill team.

[Ned]

SDWG has 9 squadrons, with active cadet participation ranging from 2-15 cadets.  Two squadrons in the state have 10 or more active cadets.

Yeah, that's kinda my point.

Those two cadet "squadrons" need to devote their time and effort to improving their own programs to get theri units up to size and speed rather than farming out their best and brightest cadets to some sort of SD Superteam.  Every hour spend transporting a cadet to/from and participating in the superteam is an hour spent not improving the two cadet "squadron."  If that means that those two cadets do not participate in wing, region, or NCC this year, they are in good company.  They will be just like the other 95% of all cadets in CAP who do not participate in one of the most expensive cadet activities we put on.

If I could change anything about the NCC rules, I would allow cadet officers to participate in color guard competition, and remove the requirement for the accompanying senior member to be 25. 
CAP goes through great lengths ensuring that it is grade that matters, and not age, but they put in regulatory dribble like that.

I agree that the age thing at first blush seems a little out of place, but it is one of those rules "written in blood" in the sense that is solidly based on a number of negative experiences at NCC when younger seniors displayed a marked inability to disengage themselves from the cadets and maintain a professional distance.

We are open, of course, to other ways to accomplish the solve the same problem, but the age thing has worked pretty well.  And we do it in other places in the program like IACE escort for pretty much the same reason.

And Ron, regions, wings, and groups are already free to conduct their competitions however they would like.  They can add any events they would like.  I think it would be interesting to see innovention and experimentation in the field.

THe flip side is that many competition project officers try to make the compeitition as much like NCC as possible to help their teams better prepare for higher level competition.

Ned

[Ron1319]

My point is that many groups and wings may be more likely to have more participation if holding a competition that was less complicated and more easy to pull off as a one day event.  My suggestion has been to drop innovative and volleyball at competitions with three or fewer teams competing.  GLR competition used to be 4-5 teams.  Does that just not happen anymore?  How many groups have competitions?  I'm still amazed that PCR had no other drill team competitors. 

I don't have any visibility into Nevada, Washington and Oregon, but I'd rather have a five event competition at region with 4 teams than not even have to show up. 

[Ned]

I'm still amazed that PCR had no other drill team competitors. 

Disappointing, surely, but understandable.

The logistics of moving a drill team around PCR are considerable.  The Region DCP does her best to move the competition aournd while keeping it near major APOEs and cheap quarters, but it is never going to be cheap or easy to move a couple of dozen folks a thousand miles or so and arrive in time for a competition. 

We' re probably talking a hundreds if not thousands of dollars for everyone except the home team, even using corporate vans.  And California being what it is, even the home team may need to move 500 miles.

This year's comp was in Nevada; last year was Washington, next year looks like California.  PCR is  big place.

Now let's talk about poor Hawaii and Alaska . . . .

We're not the only geograph9ically large region, of course, but the reality is that there is far too heavy a cost for an average squadron to participate in wing and region competitions.

That's a big part of what we need to fix to make NCC more accessible and supportive of local units.

We've talked about saving money by flying the judges to the wings or having a head to head YouTube competition, but each of those presents their own challenges.

Ned Lee

[Ron1319]

Let's talk real numbers.

I get $160/van round trip from Portland to Reno.  Figuring two vans for a drill team, we're looking at $320 or $30/cadet for the gas portion of the expense.  I've driven from Seattle to Portland in an afternoon's drive.  It's another 180 miles or approximately $60 round trip.  That would bring two wings in for under $35/cadet to Reno which is in Nevada and happens to be two hours away from Sac.

I don't think anybody reasonable can't raise $60/cadet or even $100/cadet to participate with an entire year to plan for it.  Our squadron makes that on each of at least 2-3 fund raisers a year.  I believe two of those involve parking lots and donations, but that's not really my department.

[jimmydeanno]

...and if you're in HI or AK wing you're looking at ~600.00/participant just to get to Reno.  So, there's ~$1200.00 * 15 = ~$18,000.  Now add meals, lodging and van support while they are there.

Do you really expect a squadron, wing, or even a region to shell out 20K, multiple times, to get cadets to competitions?  If HIWG were to go to PCR, that's what they'd expect to have to spend in one way or another.  Then, if they were to win PCR competition, there's another 20K-ish to get them to National Competition.  So, CAP is going to shell out 40K for ONE TEAM participate in NCC?  Even with a split between national funding and local funding support it is an unreasonable cost, especially considering the low number of cadets it supports.  In many situations, 40K can fully fund multiple wing encampments, servicing hundreds of cadets, not 12.

Those are the real numbers. 

[a2capt]

Thats two vans, and the time off for the senior members to drive them, and the food for three days for those cadets, and the hotel rooms. Jamming them all into 1 or 2 rooms encampment style perhaps.. but thats not a healthy competition either.

You certainly don't want to arrive the morning of, and perhaps leave the afternoon of finishing? IF you go all that way, to where there is usually *something* to see, why not use that day for AE activities and go to a museum that might be nearby.

I agree that the age thing at first blush seems a little out of place, but it is one of those rules "written in blood" in the sense that is solidly based on a number of negative experiences at NCC when younger seniors displayed a marked inability to disengage themselves from the cadets and maintain a professional distance.

... yeah. Lots of shenanigans have definitely happened when the only thing that crossed the line of membership classification is the wording on the membership card.

[BillB]

The biggest cost is for the Wing teams to get to Region. When Drill Comp was first organized, every CAP-USAF Region Laision Officer had a C-47 assigned and could move teams around. USAF picked up the tab. Also housing on Air Force Bases was at no charge for cadets (seniors pais $10. for a BOQ.
Times have obviously changed. USAF no longer has the airlift capability to support CAP due to other committments. But at the same time, Air Guard, AFReserve might be able to fill in the gap if USAF gave the go ahead. That might be an area for HQ CAP-USAF to look into.

[Ned]

I don't think anybody reasonable can't raise $60/cadet or even $100/cadet to participate with an entire year to plan for it.  Our squadron makes that on each of at least 2-3 fund raisers a year.  I believe two of those involve parking lots and donations, but that's not really my department.

I can't argue with your van numbers, they seem reasonable enough.

Now let's add the cost of new uniforms, insignia, and shoes for each cadet (call it a $13 shirt, $35 trousers, $5 tie, $10 cap, and $46 dollar shoes for $109 (Aafes prices) plus insignia, say $20)

And some sort of cool, flashy PT uniform.  (Obviously can vary, but let's say a conservative $30)

And the costs of subsistence and lodging. (A night or two in cheap quarters plus a couple of day's worth of meals.  Make it easy and call it a barracks and a dining hall for $25)

And we are starting to get close to the costs that competitive teams pay each year.

Something on the order of $200-$300 dollars per troop.  For the drill team and a couple of alternates, thats a cool couple of thousand a year.


We survey the NCC teams most years, and these are the minimum costs.  Some teams pay a lot more for things like custom embroidered warm up suits, matching athletic shoes, team polos, tailoring, etc.

I'm not suggesting that anyone is putting a gun to their heads.  As you suggest, they raise the funds themselves and seem to have a genuine good time, win or lose. 


But if the burden to be competitive is thousands of dollars, then your average and even most above-average squadrons don't even bother to try.  Which may account for why it is more likely for a cadet to earn an Earhart than it is for them to even compete once at the wing, region, or national levels, statistically speaking.

One of the primary purposes of the proposals is to reduce the entry barriers to the competition by reducing costs and not requiring specialized skills not normally used in local squadrons.

Seriously, CP has always been run on a shoestring at the local and national levels.  Are we getting the appropriate value for all the money we spend on NCC?

[Spaceman3750]

Here's an idea for the PCR folks...

What if, instead of all teams coming together to compete, over a period of a couple of months (or a few weekends) the judging team moves from place to place in a CAP vehicle to judge each team individually. Sure, it doesn't have quite the feel to it, but numbers are numbers whether they're gathered in one day or over several weekends. Obviously, this places much more burden on the organizers/judges but wouldn't they do it to have a real competition to decide who goes to NCC?

[Ned]

Here's an idea for the PCR folks...

What if, instead of all teams coming together to compete, over a period of a couple of months (or a few weekends) the judging team moves from place to place in a CAP vehicle to judge each team individually. Sure, it doesn't have quite the feel to it, but numbers are numbers whether they're gathered in one day or over several weekends. Obviously, this places much more burden on the organizers/judges but wouldn't they do it to have a real competition to decide who goes to NCC?

We have considered doing exactly that.

The issues we ran into included:

1. The cost of sending 2/3/(pick an number) of judges to the four CONUS states plus Alaska and Hawaii exceeded the entire CP budget for PCR, and we were unable to resource it.

2.  By definition, that means the "competition" is spread over a month or so, and that in turn means the last team gets a lot more practice than the first one.  How do we factor that in?

3.  What happens if a judge gets sick or becomes unavailable week to week?

4.  Things like weather and surface conditions will vary considerably between teams, which can have an effect.

5.  In my experience, teams really like to watch the other teams perform to ensure that the other team is judged "correctly".   That does tend to add to transparency and the appearance of fairness.

6.  and a few more.

We have really given this some serious time and attention.  As I mentioned, we considered another option - having the teams simultaneously videotape a single performance on a given date and immediately post the video on YouTube where they would be judged by AF HG types.

Again, the devil is in the details.  Integrity issues (ensuring only one "take"/performance, team members depicted are the actual competing members, etc.), technical issues (what happens if there is an inadvertant technical problem with the taping or upload), and trying to figure out how to do a detailed and comprehensive uniform inspection via video, etc.

I keep hoping we can figure ways around these kinds of problems . . .

[Ron1319]

We took fifth in in-ranks inspection at NCC with only purchasing selected new items and not purchasing new shoes.  I'd estimate an average of $40/cadet was spent on uniform items.  All of the items that we replaced were items that the cadets should have replaced to wear the uniform properly anyway, such as very dirty hats, pants that really needed replacing, etc.  Yes, the bar to win is high, but the bar to do respectably well at NCC is not unattainable.  We are coming with new uniforms this year.  We spent about 30 minutes of the practice discussing fund raising and we have 4 cadets who are going to go look into it by the end of the month.  I think it's a great experience for them to get involved in finances and budgeting.



We had preparation problems.  Ties were not consistent lengths, strings, ironing that wasn't quite right when they marched on, and some tailoring that we didn't go quite far enough with so we have a wrinkled appearance.  We'll do better next year.  You left out tailoring costs in your analysis.  We're including that in our budget for this year.  We spent $5/each on T-shirts and they wore the shorts they had.  I believe it cost them less than an encampment.  They want to spend a lot more money this year and they're going to figure out how to raise it.  I think that's about one of the greatest learning experiences they could hope for.

Now, again, if more groups had competitions and if wing competitions were more accessible it would likely be easier.  We had two seniors in the cadet programs meeting last year (you were there) who said that innovative was their sticking point.  It was me who said, "Show up, report in, report out, and move onto the next event.  You don't have to do innovative to compete or to win."

I will say that our team had a lot of fun working on innovative today.  It was raining so no volleyball. 

Most important question -- would Hawaii and Alaska even field a team if there were options like Youtube to compete?  I don't personally like the Youtube idea, but I'd do it if it was required.  I think it'd be a nightmare to judge and especially for transparency, like you said.  I can't imagine what the spouse of anyone asked to run around the region for 5-6 weeks in a row judging different teams would say.  I think that the four teams that are here could compete in person.  Are we doing the easy job of reaching out to WA and OR and seeing if their cadet programs people are working on encouraging a team to come compete?  Our team is itching for competition.  They say that they have another team coming to wing comp.

[Ned]

Ron,

Forgive me, but I don't think I can aggressively market NCC with a slogan like:

"Come to NCC where the bar to do respectably well is not unattainable!"

[tsrup]

SDWG has 9 squadrons, with active cadet participation ranging from 2-15 cadets.  Two squadrons in the state have 10 or more active cadets.

Yeah, that's kinda my point.

Those two cadet "squadrons" need to devote their time and effort to improving their own programs to get theri units up to size and speed rather than farming out their best and brightest cadets to some sort of SD Superteam.  Every hour spend transporting a cadet to/from and participating in the superteam is an hour spent not improving the two cadet "squadron."  If that means that those two cadets do not participate in wing, region, or NCC this year, they are in good company.  They will be just like the other 95% of all cadets in CAP who do not participate in one of the most expensive cadet activities we put on.

and I think you missed my point.   The point is that in order to field enough cadets for a Drill team competition we have work with other squadrons to do so.  There is no "farming out" occurring, more like scrounging up what we can.  Ideally Sioux Falls and Rapid City squadrons would be able to use every single one of their cadets to form a drill team, but the reality that some cadets can make the extra commitment and some cant is a reality that everyone in Cadet Programs has to deal with. 

and what do you mean by

"squadron"

are you implying that because our numbers are lower than what you may be used to that we aren't up to par?  I'd like to hear your stance on that.  Our system is small, but it is definitely not broken, and we are proud to have the cadets that we do, they're as hard working as anyone else around as well as the people that run those programs. 

I'm not disputing the intentions of this regulation which are definitely good.  Level and fair competition should be the goal of NCC, however in the process of trying to make the competition more accessible to some, you may be hindering the access of others.

If I could change anything about the NCC rules, I would allow cadet officers to participate in color guard competition, and remove the requirement for the accompanying senior member to be 25. 
CAP goes through great lengths ensuring that it is grade that matters, and not age, but they put in regulatory dribble like that.

I agree that the age thing at first blush seems a little out of place, but it is one of those rules "written in blood" in the sense that is solidly based on a number of negative experiences at NCC when younger seniors displayed a marked inability to disengage themselves from the cadets and maintain a professional distance.

We are open, of course, to other ways to accomplish the solve the same problem, but the age thing has worked pretty well.  And we do it in other places in the program like IACE escort for pretty much the same reason.

Ned

So should I be issued a different ID card, since I am apparently in a lower membership class then a full on CAP officer.
Maybe we should also have an "age cap" for escorts as well, I think maybe 55, that way you don't end up with a senile CAP officer forgetting their cadets somewhere.  If you want to make sure that your escorts are mature enough for being a chaperone, then make it mandatory that an escort have wing approval.  A simple "do you think this person could do this job without seriously screwing it up for the rest of us?" check would be all that's needed. 

The age thing seems like a cheap reaction dealing with a few isolated cases that someone should have dealt with directly rather than making a sweeping judgement that creates new membership "castes". 

[Ned]

Capt Rup,

I may have caused some miscommunication by omitting a hyphen.  When I wrote:

(. . .)Those two cadet "squadrons" need to devote their time and effort to improving their own programs to get theri units up to size and speed (. . .).

should have read "two-cadet" squadrons, reacting to your post where you indicated that you had squadrons with two cadets.  I had  not intended to refer to a two different chartered units, but to single units with two cadets.  I regret omitting the hyphen to make that clear.

That said,

and what do you mean by

"squadron"

I meant that a total of two cadets is far below the legal minimum for a squadron or even a flight.  As you know, squadrons require a minimum of 15 members, 3 of whom must be seniors.  And flights reguire a minimum of 8 members, 3 of whom must be seniors.  Your wing commander is required to review all charterd units annually to ensure that (among other things) the meet the minimums.

I suppose it is technically possible to have a composite unit with a bunch of seniors and only two cadets, but those two cadets are not experiencing the CAP cadet program as it was designed.  And in any event, those two cadets have far more immediate and pressing concerns than NCC.  Like recruiting, for instance.

are you implying that because our numbers are lower than what you may be used to that we aren't up to par?  I'd like to hear your stance on that. 

Yes, any unit below the legal minimums is, by definition, "not up to par."  Obviously there are a lot of small and struggling units out there, and there is no "magic number" for a unit size where learning automatically stops.  But all things being equal, less than 10-13 cadets makes it very, very difficult to run a quality cadet program.

Our system is small, but it is definitely not broken, and we are proud to have the cadets that we do, they're as hard working as anyone else around as well as the people that run those programs. 

There is not a doubt in my mind that the cadets work as hard or harder than any others in the program.  After all, unit administration is not primarily a cadet responsibility.  Unit size is primarily the resonsibility of the senior staff.

So should I be issued a different ID card, since I am apparently in a lower membership class then a full on CAP officer.
Maybe we should also have an "age cap" for escorts as well, I think maybe 55, that way you don't end up with a senile CAP officer forgetting their cadets somewhere.  (. . .) The age thing seems like a cheap reaction dealing with a few isolated cases that someone should have dealt with directly rather than making a sweeping judgement that creates new membership "castes".

Gosh, you make it seem like age restrictions are found nowhere else in nature.  I hate to break it to you, but one must obtain the age of 21 to buy a drink or a handgun in most states.  Most rental car companies won't rent to you unitl age 25.  And you have to be 35 to be elected President of the United States.

We won't make you a CAP second lieutenant unitl you are 21.  There are all sort of age restridtions for ES specialties like GTL, etc.

And if we ever begin to experience serious operational issues with elderly drill team escorts, we'd be happy to make a rule about that, too.

Sorry about the hyphen.

Ned Lee

[Ron1319]

I like the longer format for NCC as it was less stressful, but the event was still pretty intense even as a senior escort.  I'm not sure which side of the age argument I'm on.

I do know that nobody's going to take a team of new cadets to NCC for the first time and win.  Therefore, you have to start somewhere and you don't have to spend $3-4k to make that happen.  I think respectable is a perfectly fine goal for the first year.  The cadets just aren't going to understand until they get there.

If we don't have seniors that can't figure out the benefits without being assured a win, then we have a big problem.  99% of what comes from NCC isn't about winning.  That said, if the cadets can figure out how, they're going to give it a go this year.

[SKI304]

Skipping back to the original question, I was on the NCC Working Group that was evaluating the proposed changes, and we came up with some great ideas to make every echelon of the competition more appealing and accessible.  Keep in mind this was a very diverse group of CP Seniors and Cadets with very strong opinions in every direction that has been mentioned here, and we all seemed to be happy with the results.  However, I haven't heard any updates since our report was sent to the NEC, so I'm not sure if I can divulge any of the specifics of what we came up with.

That doesn't mean I can't voice my views on the matters though.     This may be a little repetitious to what I've posted prior, but I still think they're good points to keep bringing up. 

One of the biggest things outside of the "Change Proposal" that would help would be to use Air Force TI's as judges in Standard Drill instead of Honor Guard.  Honor Guard may be "drill experts", but they are Honor Guard Drill experts, and this has created a set of double standards in that they only care about what looks the most flashy and not what is IAW AFMAN 36-2203.  TI's are probably the true experts in standard drill since they are teaching it by the book day in and day out.  This would put every unit in the country on the same playing field for success since they wouldn't need to be attuned to the judges secret style preferences.  Leave the flash for innovative.

Now to the proposal.  The NCC by its very nature allows itself to be an outstanding metric to gauge the effectiveness of the Cadet Program at various echelons. That said, there's no reason why it can't also be used as a tool to develop the Cadet Program at those various echelons.  In response to the previously proposed changes, here are my thoughts.

"Super Team" Reduction While I think it should actually be one squadron, I'd be comfortable with at least two squadrons forming joint drill teams.  Here's why: imagine if the energy and effort that went into building quality wing level teams was focused into building local squadrons.  Cadets would be required to recruit, train, and develop their own fellow cadets instead of just joining up with other like minded individuals across the state.  The talent could then be spread out beyond a central 13 cadets, to lets say a conservative average estimate of 65 per wing.  Think of the leadership development that could build across the wing.  Think of the great encampment cadet staff you could have.  Think of the outstanding groups of basic cadets that you could graduate as a result of the training provided by that cadet staff.  The benefits that could be reaped are endless, and the great part is: it is not impossible.  My squadron did this ten years ago and we went from being a unit that barely had enough cadets to form a team, let alone be considered a more than mediocre cadet program, to a five time Squadron of Merit winner, one time Squadron of Distinction winner, nine times competing at Region Competition and three times at NCC while rising to become one of the largest cadet units in the country (#11 as of the beginning of the month).   I say this not to toot my own horn, but to illustrate the benefits that I largely attribute to involvement in NCC as a single-squadron entity.  And to dispel the idea that squadron teams are not viable at the NCC level, I'd like to remind everyone that four of the eight drill teams at NCC 2009 were single squadron teams, as were recent champion teams from NYWG and PRWG.  It is possible, but it is difficult like anything else that is a worthwhile pursuit.  Those of you in small wings can do it, I believe in you.   Remember, the rubber meets the road at the squadron - not the group or wing - and that's where we need our quality focused.

Elimination of Innovative Drill   While many people love Innovative Drill, I would seriously like to know: what benefit does it provide to the Cadet Program? Don't get me wrong, as a guy who makes his living in architecture, I live and breathe creativity and relish any opportunity that people have to express it, but we need to be cognizant of when that pursuit is at the detriment to some of our core tenants of the program. In ten years of being on and coaching drill teams, I know just how much time and energy goes into preparing for Innovative Drill. I posit that said energy would be much better invested into training younger cadets, planning great non-NCC activities, and generally improving our Cadet Program as a whole. Refocusing the expertise of those on the teams into helping the other 20,000 some cadets.  However, a good compromise may be just reducing the time frame to around two minutes.  This way it removes the notion that squadrons have to come up with five minutes of material while at the same time making the routines more exciting.  Less filler - more thriller.

Uniforms  In recent years it HAS become a contest of who has the newest stuff, not who has the most correct stuff.  There is no reason why a team should be penalized for wearing used uniforms and having insignia in good repair. Teams should not have to buy brand new shoes for competition that come out of the boxes in the staging area and only get worn out on the floor for inspection.  When we have so many cadets across the country who cannot wear the uniform properly, why shouldn't we instead be focusing on training drill teams at each squadron to be uniform experts that could help their fellow cadets get on board with their own uniform wear?  Imagine if the thousands of dollars spent on new uniforms, warm up uniforms, travel uniforms, casual uniforms, etc. were instead spent on subsidizing cadet activity fees and providing scholarships.  Fiscal responsibility is a good thing when we are in an organization of limited fiscal resources.  I'll admit it - I have done the buying all new uniforms thing in the past, but the cost benefit just wasn't there.  That's why last year we sent our cadets to NCC in their normal everyday uniforms.  Did it hurt?  Yes.  Was it worth taking funds away from other endeavors just to place higher in one event?  No.

Removal of Volleyball   I totally disagree with that one. A TLP probably won't ever be as effective on challenging teamwork in a fluid environment the way that Volleyball can  and opens up another avenue of cadets just memorizing a solution.   Additionally, it works well to balance out the NCC events by having two drill events, two academic events, and two physical events (in addition to inspection, of course.) Expert coaches aren't necessary either.  Last year my cadets did rather well just on what we taught ourselves and practicing in hallways, parking lots, and lawns.  Heck, we almost beat PRWG.  I know from talking with staffers that this event is also one of the most expensive single expenditures in the competition just to rent facilities and hire judges.  This is definitely not anything that can't be solved with CAP judges and $20 WalMart Volleyball nets.

Now I know many units have real obstacles in their way preventing conformance with those proposed changes, but please, lets look beyond those obstacles. Many of those obstacles are the same ones impeding our Cadet Program in general, so if we can find creative ways to knock these down, not only will we be ensuring our continued participation in NCC, we will be ensuring a vibrant, well oiled Cadet Program machine nationwide for years to come. 

Sincerely,

An adamant NCC believer.

[Ron1319]

Well thought out and very good post. 

The impression I got from talking to the PRWG team was that if you wanted to be on drill team, you transferred to that squadron.  The actual implementation would involve sucking cadets away from other units.  Further, I want to grow all of the squadrons in the group, not just my own. 

I watched the cadets work on innovative on Sunday at practice and it sure seemed like a great leadership laboratory to me.  I had to direct a bit but they were group problem solving way better than I've ever seen in a made up classroom setting at a meeting.

3 minutes for innovative sounds like an improvement to me.

[Bluelakes 13]

While I disagree with many things said about the drill team competition, I will refrain to commenting only about the color guard competition - because they are two very different animals.

There is no reason - other than excuses - why EVERY unit doesn't participate in the color guard competition.  It's a totally win/win scenario, even if you do not win Wing.  The competition is the epitome of the Cadet Programs elements: leadership (drill events), knowledge (test and panel quiz) and PT (mile run).  Having cadets study, drill and run will make them better cadets and better guardsmen.  They will be a huge asset to the unit when asked to provide CG services.  They will be excellent mentors for the rest of the cadets.

So as I tell every team I mentor and CG Clinics I teach, saying that the [color guard] competition is too much money spent on a few cadets is pure poppycock.  It's a substantial amount of money spent on every unit that choses to participate.  If you chose not to participate, do not complain.

[Bluelakes 13]

Additionally, the numbers do not hold up for the superteam solution.

In GLR, using last years EOY numbers, I have 161 units with at least 1 cadet.
The average is 19 cadets.  The median is 15 cadets.  Only 3 units have more than 50 cadets, one being a school unit with over 300 cadets.

On average, about half the cadets on the books are active at any time (YMMV).  When I ask units who is interested in the Competiton,  about half the active cadets are interested.  So doing the math, two units with 1/4 the cadets in same Wing, 1-2 drill teams will be coming to Region every year.

This year we only had 2 drill teams at RCC - Col. Carr (at the time) and I were very disappointed.  Bill needs more competition!   

[a2capt]

On this Age 25 thing, 52-16 only says that in relation to IACE.

I guess I should look in the NCC regs, or whatever they are called.

[davidsinn]

On this Age 25 thing, 52-16 only says that in relation to IACE.

I guess I should look in the NCC regs, or whatever they are called.

I'm 26. Honestly, I don't think I would have been mature enough at even 23-24 to have been an escort for NCC.

[SKI304]

Additionally, the numbers do not hold up for the superteam solution.

In GLR, using last years EOY numbers, I have 161 units with at least 1 cadet.
The average is 19 cadets.  The median is 15 cadets.  Only 3 units have more than 50 cadets, one being a school unit with over 300 cadets.

On average, about half the cadets on the books are active at any time (YMMV).  When I ask units who is interested in the Competiton,  about half the active cadets are interested.  So doing the math, two units with 1/4 the cadets in same Wing, 1-2 drill teams will be coming to Region every year.

This year we only had 2 drill teams at RCC - Col. Carr (at the time) and I were very disappointed.  Bill needs more competition!   

...and I think this all comes back to a few underlying factors that if we improved upon, would be better for the whole Cadet Program.  I truly agree that if the competition was more supportive of the weekly meeting and reflective of what we do on a regular basis, I think we'd see a lot more teams competing.  The great thing is that right now it is so close to doing that, that I think with a few of the tweaks we came up with in the NCC Working Group could easily get there.

The recruiting and retention problem is something in which many units struggle.  Getting strong on the program fundamentals and providing a challenge to our cadets plays a big part in alleviating that.  NCC can be the catalyst for it.  Every part of the competition can be learned, practiced, and reinforced at the weekly meeting - except Innovative Drill (which is why I'm in favor of canning it.)  All of these things are also scaleable to the entire unit and not just limited to the 13 on the team.  Drill Team would be the "exam" to test each unit on how it's fulfilling the Cadet Programs mission.

Money was named as one of the primary barriers.  All of these things could also be easily attainable at the unit financially.  Uniforms don't have to be brand new, and right now NCC requires some expensive uniform items that could easily be jettisoned.  If we went with the basic Service Uniform and removed ties, tie tacks/tabs, and shoulder cords, that's around $25 less per cadet.  Uniform expenses would be no extra for NCC.  Volleyball is even attainable in the unit setting.  Since our PT Program is supposed to be  a whole lot more than conducting the CPFT - using volleyball as a regular team sport is a great way to provide additional exercise and promote leadership development.  You can pick up a volleyball for $10, a portable net system for $20, and a pack of cones for $8.  Knee pads can be found for around $8 and every cadet should easily afford that (pretty much one trip to Arby's.)  Beyond that is travel and lodging expenses, and I've never been to a competition that equaled out to be more than $40 per cadet divided.  GLR is $25 a cadet for two nights lodging and around four meals.  Our drive is also going to be 9 1/2 hours one way, and if we make it back this year, distance is no deterrent. 

At OHWG Cadet Competition last year we had three Drill Teams and six Color Guards - all of whom were from single units.  Mine and one other unit sent both, so that ended up being seven units participating total.  For this year we have five Drill Teams preparing for competition and probably a few more Color Guards.  Whether they are doing it because they want to compete or because they want to knock my unit down a few pegs, what matters is that they are competing.  Through that they are reaping the training benefits and the momentum is growing around the wing.  I simply don't believe that would be happening if we just put our best and brightest onto one team.  What's awesome is Ohio's units aren't that much different than every other wings' and our demographics range from very urban to extremely rural.  NCC participation is happening here, and if that's possible, I'd say it's possible in many, many other wings too.

Hopefully we'll see more teams at region this year, but then again I might be living in an idealistic bubble.  I hope not, because those ideals are so basic, fundamental, and down to Earth as to form the basis of our Cadet Program.

[Ron1319]

I'm so glad to hear that Ohio is still strong! I wish I were 3,000 miles closer and could help my original unit (34282, I think? Was Sq 705 - //[url="http://www.squadron282.com/"]http://www.squadron282.com/[URL]) compete against you   I'm sure it's earlier in the thread, but I was the team commander in '97 when we took 3rd at NCC.  We spent 4 years trying to beat Illinois at Region Comp.

I don't know demographics, but we had about 4 cadet officers in the group at this time last year and now we have at least 10 with at least 4 more on the way shortly.  I attribute it DIRECTLY to NCC participation.  I really believe it just takes some encouragement and a little shove in the right direction. 

[Paul Creed III]

Having worked as staff at two NCCs now, I have been witness to incredible dedication that it takes - from the cadets and the seniors both - to field a team. NCC is really the culmination of the excellence of the cadet program and I think it is worth every penny that NHQ (and the teams) spend on it. Cadets needs that ultimate level of cadetship (if you will allow me to make up words) to work towards attaining.

I know that money is a sore spot with some teams and the proposed changes would help that a bit, but there seems to be a possible solution to the money problem that might be over-looked at the local level: fundraising.

Fundraising is actually a very powerful tool and it doesn't take a whole host of people to pull it off. Fundraising serves two roles: raising money and recruiting since you get your squadron some face time with the public. I know that fundraising in uniform is a no-no, but getting your name out there is still very valuable and might help get a few more bodies at the meetings.

[Bluelakes 13]

At OHWG Cadet Competition last year we had three Drill Teams and six Color Guards - all of whom were from single units. 

Bill, totally agree on all you've said.  Of the 5 largest units in GLR (ignoring Anderson Prep in INWG for now), guess where three of them are?  OHWG.  Then the numbers change quickly from the 50's to the 30's and 20's.  So, purely statistically based on cadet membership alone, OHWG has an advantage in the Region.  I would guess that applies to make Regions. I wonder if I can get my paws on a National Capwatch database dump....

Paul, welcome aboard this loony place we call CapTalk.  In addition to fundraising, another option many forget is the most easy - ASK FOR HELP.  Ask the parents for contributions, ask your chain of command.   I know things are different now than back in '05 '06, but we got a good amount of money by asking!  And it's not just cash.  We had parents that were seamstresses, former volleyball coaches, sport uniform outfitters, etc.  It's amazing how much help a team can get by just asking.

[SKI304]

At OHWG Cadet Competition last year we had three Drill Teams and six Color Guards - all of whom were from single units. 

Bill, totally agree on all you've said.  Of the 5 largest units in GLR (ignoring Anderson Prep in INWG for now), guess where three of them are?  OHWG.  Then the numbers change quickly from the 50's to the 30's and 20's.  So, purely statistically based on cadet membership alone, OHWG has an advantage in the Region.  I would guess that applies to make Regions. I wonder if I can get my paws on a National Capwatch database dump....

Paul, welcome aboard this loony place we call CapTalk.  In addition to fundraising, another option many forget is the most easy - ASK FOR HELP.  Ask the parents for contributions, ask your chain of command.   I know things are different now than back in '05 '06, but we got a good amount of money by asking!  And it's not just cash.  We had parents that were seamstresses, former volleyball coaches, sport uniform outfitters, etc.  It's amazing how much help a team can get by just asking.

While it's true that two of the Drill Teams in Ohio last year were from the two largest cadet units in the state, the third was from a squadron with 28 cadets.  Their staff saw the value in forming a Drill Team and grew the unit from the two cadets they had on the books the year before.  They used the training in all the areas to give immediate purpose to their cadet program and there was no questioning it - they WOULD have a Drill Team.  It was going to be a learning experience whether they won or lost.  And they did it.  Sure they faced a lot of the problems new cadets face in a first year team, but they held their heads up and performed to the best of their abilities.  They even took second place in a couple of events and they all had a great time and learned a lot.  Now they're preparing for this year's competition.  Perfect example of what NCC can do for a squadron if Commanders just set it as a goal and stick to it.

As for Ohio having larger units than some other wings, there is nothing so special about it that can't be replicated elsewhere.  It just takes some work and NCC can be a great motivator and carrot to get units working towards a very immediate and tangible goal.

To show what a squadron-centric team approach can do, here's a brief history of Drill Teams in Ohio over the past decade.  For years it was mostly Group Drill Teams in our wing, namely just one - the Group 7 Drill Team composed of cadets from around the Dayton area (Wright Patt AFB).  They came year after year to be the only team in Ohio.   In 2002 my unit decided to give Drill Team a shot since we saw some great value and potential to grow our rather mediocre unit.  As luck would have it, the Group 7 team didn't show up that year.  We went to Region unopposed and got our butts handed to us.  The next year Group 7 came back and beat us at wing competition, but we kept working and improving.  In 2004 their team disbanded because they were sick of working so hard just to loose to Illinois every year (according to their commander) so we became the only team left in Ohio and it stayed that way until 2007.  It appears that the focus was just on winning, not using competition as a tool for improvement.  During that time frame we had tons of cadets asking to be on our team, but denied them because those efforts needed to go back into their own units.  There was one exception when in 2005 we had some big internal problems and four cadets from a neighboring unit were brought in and competed with us at Region.  Two of those cadets transferred to another unit for college and trained and commanded Drill Teams against us in 2007 and 2008.  These two would have probably done it on their own without ever being on our team.  The expectation was set and the values clear that squadrons could and would do very well with Drill Team as a motivator.  That other unit grew around 50%.  In 2009 some last minute shortfalls left us again as the only team in Ohio.  However in 2010, like I said, there were three teams - all from single squadrons.  This year there are at least five teams shaping up.  All again from single squadrons.  The cadets have seen what it can do and what they can get from it, and they are hungry to compete.  All of this I really don't think would happen if we started having just group teams again.

[Ron1319]

For the record, the core of the Group VII drill team was from 705 (now 282) and we were out of New Lebanon, not Wright Patt.  Maj Spurling was the project officer and my commander.  We eventually drew from all over the group but started in 1992 and finally beat Illinois in 1997.  It is true that we practiced at Wright Patt that year due to it's central location, but let's not draw the conclusion that we had an advantage due to Wright Patt being a large AFB.  I know all of the participants and I can't think of one of them that was in CAP because of AF parents stationed at Wright Patt. 

Back to 2010, I love the points on $ and coaching above.  One of the seniors that just transferred to out unit went to college on a full ride volleyball scholarship.  We also are friends with a Spaatzen stationed at Travis who flies C-17's and competed internationally in volleyball.  Between the two of them, the most we'd need to do would be rent a gym, but my cadets assure me that there are church and school options for free.

[Paul Creed III]

And, if a squadron is not large enough to field a drill team, they could still field a competition color guard. Many aspects of a competitive drill team are present in competitive color guard (minus the volleyball component, obviously). The smaller squadrons can use a color guard to help bolster their ranks until they have enough bodies for a drill team.

[tinstar]

I was on the Illinois Wing Drill Team for 4 years as a cadet.  Drill team was hands down the best things that ever happened to me so I'm very emotional about it.  For me my team was my second family.  It was were I fit in.  I agree with the posts that encourage you to start a team even if you have no hope of winning.  I also agree that inspection is an event that has gotten out of control.  When I was a cadet our uniforms were brand new, never worn before and never worn again.  It was the single biggest expense for our team and it was paid for by our very supportive senior members (out of pocket).  My suggestion for dealing with this comes from ROTC.  In college I particiapted on our school's ROTC competition where the inspection was done before the actual competition occurred and it was simply pass/fail.  The judges made sure the uniform was put together properly and that it was serviciable.  Too many demerits and the member was disqualified.  A system like that at NCC would eliminate the need for teams to buy new uniforms every year.
As for eliminating volleyball...it's a pain to prepare for and is the most challenging part of preparing for the competition but the cadets love it.  It's also really the place where the cadets come together and bond as a team.
And finally innovative...NEVER get rid of innovative.  Innovative is, IMHO, the most important part of drill team.  Some people have argued that its too time consuming and doesn't add anything to the program.  To those I would say, innovative provides cades with the opportunity to work together, be creative and solve problems.  Also in order to do innovative well you have to be really good at standard.  In other words you get good at standard by doing innovative.  However, where standard drill can get very boring when done repetitively, innovative can be done for hours and still feel fresh.

[Ned]

Tinstar,

Question:  during your successful years on the Illinois team, how many cadets came from the same unit?  IOW, was it a squadron team with a few augmentees, or was it drawn from a lot of different units from throughout the wing.

What are your thoughts on the "superteam" issues?  Does it help or hurt a local unit to have one or two of the unit's best cadets spend so much time on wing drill team practice and competition?

I agree that volleyball is usually a great bonding experience, but does it tend to discriminate against smaller/younger cadets, especially women?  Do you think teams limit the number of women and shorter cadets as a result?

I see your point that innovative is far more fun and interesting that standard drill, and like volleyball certainly is a team-builder in terms of coming together and problem solving.  Does that mean that if it was eliminated (yes, I know that you and others are strongly opposed to it, but bear with me for a moment), that the team could be just as competative in the remaining events with fewer total hours expended in practice and preparation?

[coudano]

change the NCC sport from volleyball to ultimate (!)
-applied aerospace ed
-team orientation required (if you want to stand any chance of winning at all)
-aerobic
-less special equipment facilities, and judges needed
-arguably less accident/injury prone

innovative provides cades with the opportunity to...solve problems. 

I'm not trying to be combative, i'm truly interested... (having never done it)
but what "problem solving" is innovative (other than the problem of pushing it as far as you can without 'offending' the judges, rather than impressing them, which let's face it, is true of standard drill as well, practically speaking)

I've seen some real atrocities (nearly crimes against humanity) committed by innovative drill demo's in ROTC, and even active duty...

[Bluelakes 13]

Ultimate what?

[coudano]

Ultimate what?

frisbee!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_(sport)

[Ron1319]

I've been absent from my own thread for a while.  It seems appropriate that I'm writing from the CAWG Cadet Competition!

I really want to answer the questions directed at Tinstar from my current perspective and my 1993-1997 cadet perspective.

Question:  during your successful years on the Illinois [Ohio] team, how many cadets came from the same unit?  IOW, was it a squadron team with a few augmentees, or was it drawn from a lot of different units from throughout the wing.

Both our GLR 1997 NCC team and our PCR 2010 (and hopefully 2011) NCC teams were/are fairly evenly split with the best cadets drawn from the best/biggest 3-4 squadrons in the group.

What are your thoughts on the "superteam" issues?  Does it help or hurt a local unit to have one or two of the unit's best cadets spend so much time on wing drill team practice and competition?

Help strongly in our case both then and now.  We hardly had a cadet officer in the group a year and a half ago when we first started trying to put together a team.  At this competition (today), we now have a c/Capt, four c/1Lt's (one eligible for c/Capt submission this coming Thursday), four c/2Lt's, 2 c/CMSgt's and 2 c/SMgt's on our team.  Directly related?  Absolutely.  If anybody suggests that we're promoting them without them growing as leaders I'm going to do the equivalent of forum screaming.  They're still junior cadet officers in my assessment, but many of them will make fine Spaatz cadets in another 12-24 months.  They're motivated and their competing with each other to be better.

I really wish I had more Phase IV cadets right now to provide certain leadership elements, as they're certainly not perfect, but they're doing great.

The progression of competing against IL wing at region competition for years as a cadet lead to us finally going to NCC with 6 Spaatz cadets on our team. 

I agree that volleyball is usually a great bonding experience, but does it tend to discriminate against smaller/younger cadets, especially women?  Do you think teams limit the number of women and shorter cadets as a result?

In my cadet days, we were fairly loyal to all of our team members who had competed before and we had a fair number of girls on our team who were good at volleyball and very competitive at the mile run. 

For the CAWG competition that I'm at now, we had 3 of 4 girls that tried out for the team make the wing competition team.  They did very well in volleyball today.  They did not do very well in the mile run yesterday.  I'd say the one girl was amongst the best players on the team.  Note that we had 18 cadets try out for 13 spots and we brought 15 to competition.  The other three were invited to join us here.  Two chose to do an actual color guard performance this weekend instead and one had school work and decided to focus on that instead.

I see your point that innovative is far more fun and interesting that standard drill, and like volleyball certainly is a team-builder in terms of coming together and problem solving.  Does that mean that if it was eliminated (yes, I know that you and others are strongly opposed to it, but bear with me for a moment), that the team could be just as competative in the remaining events with fewer total hours expended in practice and preparation?

It's not a corporate efficiency study where spending the least amount of time and man hours is the objective.  Building a solid program to bring cadets together and encourage them to strive to be awesome far outweighs the extra time.  And what they're spending the time on expands their brains in the case of innovative and gets the exercising in the case of volleyball.  Take it from someone who plays a fair amount of video games (me), it's better than the alternatives.

It's essentially a condition for me that they do not abandon or hurt their home units by putting time into drill team.  As I'm sure I've mentioned earlier in this thread, we're limited in the number of hours that we will practice, but if we progress to NCC again this year we're 100% confident that we will do better than we did last year.  They're running, they're studying, improving the innovative routine, and they're playing volleyball much better.

Now, onto the point that brought me to this thread in the first place -- for the first time in YEARS (at least so I've been told), we finally have had a REAL drill team competition at CAWG competitions!  Our cadets have been encouraging others to come compete in the wing and at the OR/WA encampment that they staffed and the word is that Washington wing is sending a drill team to region competition so we look forward to having competition next month!  That's a huge improvement from going to NCC uncontested last year and makes us much stronger (win or lose) based on the additional experience that we get from the competitions.

Very exciting improvement, and a fun competition this weekend.

I'd like to add that I spent a fair amount of time talking to drill team escort from the other team today.  They're fairly motivated, their team seems really excited to compete, and it seems that the activity and preparation for the activity has been really good for them.  Unfortunately, they went unchallenged at their group competition.  I still think there could be a lot gained by adding guidelines for smaller competitions at lower levels to build teams, expertise and competition at wing comps, region comps and NCC.

I'd go so far as to say that I believe the structurally encouraging the super team would be to the advantage of every cadet in the country.  I'm saying this from the perspective of knowing that the best drill team cadets I've known are the best leaders at their squadrons and help build great units.  Diminished NCC participation saddens me. 

And have I mentioned in the last page or two of this thread that I believe if you want to grow drill team participation, you should allow cadets to only participate in ONE SEASON and ONE SEASON ONLY of color guard competition?  Lower the level of that competition and push the color guard cadets to form drill teams to compete.  A cadet that participates in multiple color guard competitions (at least >2 seasons) is by definition, not progressing in the program. 

Ponder what is being encouraged:
1) Non-progression and fewer cadet officers -- from some of the best cadet NCO's
2) Less drill team participation

It's a very positive thing that there were all 7 groups of CAWG represented at the color guard competition this weekend.  However, wouldn't the competition have been much more successful with 7 color guards of more junior cadets and another 3-4 drill teams?  That would have meant significantly more than double the participation in the competition and that NCC (on the wing level) participation would have been GREATLY improved.

Again, I don't care if they had a one minute long innovative routine and wore the same uniforms that they wear to their squadron meetings.  My team's cadets love their tailored shirts (cost $5/each to tailor them) and can't WAIT to wear them at their squadron meetings so they can look sharper than everyone else.  Seems like that will immediately motivate more interest in drill team to me.  There is some senior member time commitment and some organization involved, but really it hasn't been that much work.

[mrg]

So many things to address in this thread...

1. Color Guard- NO to cadet officers!! The U.S. Military color/honor guard consists of enlisted members only. NCO's, no officers. This is the reason CAP does not have cadet officers compete in color guard. CAP already skirts around USAF customs & courtesies and wells a uniform wear. We are an auxiliary and should be respectful of their customs & courtesies.

2. DT Volleyball (NED)- I have competed in the 90's with the NJ Wing Drill Team and I'm currently the PO for the NER team. I can assure you that volleyball does not discriminate against woman and smaller cadets. I'm sure you don't mean offense by that comment but it's down right insulting. Believe me, there are young woman and smaller cadets that are extremely talented on the court. I have seen some young women with amazing over-hand serves in CAP and are able to set and return the ball efficiently. This is the same for smaller cadets.

3. "Super Teams"Drill Team- The reason why many teams are an amalgam of cadets from all over the state is because most squadrons aren't large enough or have enough cadets interested within one squadron to field a team.  What about the 2 cadets that want to compete but there squadron doesn't? I have noticed that this is a great opportunity for cadets to work and meet new cadets throughout the state. Also, to work with different personalities. I'm still very close to my old team mates.

4. Innovative- Cadets love innovative. If properly taught, it takes no time to learn. Also, cadets develop their creativity and problem solving skills with this event.

5. Uniforms- I understand both arguments with concern to inspection. On one hand, it's great for cadets to see how the uniform is supposed to look and be worn. However, you don't need a brand new uniform to do demonstrate proper wear and fit.

Cadet participation is low for a variety of reasons that have nothing to do with the above. Many senior members or Wings have mismanaged the program in the pursuit of a win and created these issues. Training should not take a year and with good leadership, a well trained motivated team can be formed and prepared to compete with in a 6-8 week period. Also, mismanagement of this program by senior members and cadets in pursuit of a win have led to some of the aforementioned problems.

[a2capt]

Training should not take a year and with good leadership, a well trained motivated team can be formed and prepared to compete with in a 6-8 week period.

Good luck with that. Otherwise, depending on your definition of "prepared". In that 6-8 weeks, are you talking one day a week, three days a week? Three days a week would equal about the typical 6 month practice sessions in quantity. But there is nothing wrong with training hard for the preceding six months leading up to NCC, inclusive of the prior competitions. But if you're insinuating that teams that otherwise have trained hard, worked their collectives off are some how presenting an unfair advantage to the 6-8 week ones..

Also, mismanagement of this program by senior members and cadets in pursuit of a win have led to some of the aforementioned problems.

Politics. ... and it's a crying shame that cadets get caught up in it, and/or victims of it.

I do like to think that the NCC is a chance to demonstrate how hard a team has trained to be there. No matter the outcome in ranking. If they did their best, they win.

[RADIOMAN015]

SDWG has 9 squadrons, with active cadet participation ranging from 2-15 cadets.  Two squadrons in the state have 10 or more active cadets.

Yeah, that's kinda my point.

Those two cadet "squadrons" need to devote their time and effort to improving their own programs to get theri units up to size and speed rather than farming out their best and brightest cadets to some sort of SD Superteam.  Every hour spend transporting a cadet to/from and participating in the superteam is an hour spent not improving the two cadet "squadron."  If that means that those two cadets do not participate in wing, region, or NCC this year, they are in good company.  They will be just like the other 95% of all cadets in CAP who do not participate in one of the most expensive cadet activities we put on.


Ned

I'm very familiar with the time, effort, and dedication that cadets & their senior member advisers put in for a Color Guard Team to win a competition.    As far as a Drill Team, there were No single unit drill teams in the Northeast Region competitions.  Some of the wings that are more spread out have tried to form Drill teams BUT it just isn't going to happen because of the travel expense & time involved to practice in one location.  Personally (although I support the teams), my fear is that if a unit tries to form a drill team than the entire cadet program becomes centered on drill and ceremonies/physical fitness training,  and little time is spent on aerospace education and emergency services which are also part of the program.   Also as far as unit funds being expended I think we need to spend the funds that will have the most impact on the overall program (e.g. hardware/long lasting assets & materials to support programs) versus travel expense funding.       

It should be interesting to see what the results are this year from the NCC competition, BUT in the unit I'm familiar with it's unlikely that most of those members will be involved with the team next year, because the cadets are either off to college or want to do other things with their lives.  Also the parents are concerned with the cadets school workload and getting very good grades, so they can get into a good college or get a scholarship.

Again I salute the cadets & senior members that are involved with Color Guards & Drill Teams --- it takes a very significant time (and money) commitment :clap:
RM 

[Bluelakes 13]

When I was an escort for a drill team, we practiced Saturday and Sunday every week from school start to NCC.  We got 3rd place both years.  The team was from many squadrons, one (my own) over 30 miles away. The winners, Puerto Rico, were quite a team. Far above and beyond the rest.  When we were talking the subject of practicing, they said they practiced every day, but I believe they were also part of a school program.  You can't beat the saying, practice makes perfect.  Many of those cadets aged out and Puerto Rico was in the rebuilding phase.  They are back this year so it will be interesting to watch.

For Color Guards, being a huge proponent of the Competition, every reason I hear is just an excuse.  Every unit should have a Color Guard for their events.  Every unit promotes their cadets, thus they are studying the texts.  Every unit does PT, so the mile run is done, usually.  Thus every unit should be competing at the Group/Wing competitions.  But reality is full of excuses...

James Kalemis, Major, CAP
Public Affairs Officer, 2006 -
National Cadet Competition
http://www.nationalcadetcompetition.com/

[mrg]

Training should not take a year and with good leadership, a well trained motivated team can be formed and prepared to compete with in a 6-8 week period.

Good luck with that. Otherwise, depending on your definition of "prepared". In that 6-8 weeks, are you talking one day a week, three days a week? Three days a week would equal about the typical 6 month practice sessions in quantity. But there is nothing wrong with training hard for the preceding six months leading up to NCC, inclusive of the prior competitions. But if you're insinuating that teams that otherwise have trained hard, worked their collectives off are some how presenting an unfair advantage to the 6-8 week ones..

You completely misunderstood my comment. First, what I was saying was that it's not how long you train but how efficient you train. This was in response to some of the comments that the training of a team takes too long therefore many cadets do not want to participate. Some teams stretch the training out over long periods of time. I was simply suggesting that a team of motivated hard working cadets could easily be trained and prepared in shorter amount of time like 6-8 weeks (consecutive Sat-Sun).

[Eclipse]

If it takes longer than 6-8 weeks, you will lose the attention span of the participants, especially if you're practicing more than a couple times a week.

While I appreciate the skill and attention to detail that a successful Drill Team requires, I think it detracts too much from the cadets overall participation,
while contributing very little back to the unit for the drain of manpower and money it requires.  The extra effort and attention these cadets receive
then tends to engender a feeling of elitism, which, when mixed with the wrong personalities, can be disastrous.

All of that is manageable with the right seniors involved, but sadly, in most cases, things are out of hand before anyone gets involved.
Limiting the amount of practice, disallowing special uniforms, and in general lowering the expectations would, in fact, facilitate more participation
and likely bring the DTC back to where it is supposed to be, namely a team-building and leadership competition, not a check book contest.

Color guard, on the other hand is something every unit should be doing, because it provides a skillset every unit should possess and be able to "sell" externally.  Fielding competition teams for color guard should not be nearly the challenge it is.  Since flag skills and respect are a core part of the curriculum, the requirement for a basic CG team would be something good to add to the CP portion of the SUI.

[a2capt]

http://www.capvolunteernow.com/news.cfm/top_cadets_headed_for_spotlight_in_national_competition?show=news&newsID=10890

[a2capt]

Ya know, looking at the team rosters, that whole debate about super teams, and how it's hard to get one from a single unit. I think I only see two of the 8 regions that are not single unit.

[Ron1319]

Reporting from NCC...

Where are all the Phase IV cadets?  In short, I'm wondering if there is going to be a lower level of competition this year due to the lack of cadet grade from the majority of the teams.  As always, I'll let you know what I think. 

I also do find it very interesting that the majority of teams are from a single unit.  PR however has cadets transfer to the drill team squadron if they want to go to NCC based on my conversation with their escort last year.  That does not appear to be the case from many of the other teams.

[Spaceman3750]

I also do find it very interesting that the majority of teams are from a single unit.  PR however has cadets transfer to the drill team squadron if they want to go to NCC based on my conversation with their escort last year.  That does not appear to be the case from many of the other teams.

PRWG really "grooms" their drill team. They start training them young, and by the time the team is about 18-19 they really rock. Then those cadets age out and they have a bad team for a couple of years, then come back strong again.

At least, that was the way it was explained to me a few years ago.

[DProsser14]

Congrats to all teams that competed this year!  Hoping to be there next year!

I have a couple questions.

1. Will "Superteams" as they are being called here, be allowed to participate next year? 
2. Are "white" rifles allowed in CG competition?  Someone gave me info that "Only" brown were allowed?

Thank you and where would I go to check out some pictures from this years Competition?

[Bluelakes 13]

Last year, NHQ CP wrote a paper on proposed changes to NCC that included the Superteam issue.  The paper died on the vine.  If that is ever ressurected and approved, the changes will probably apply for the following year to allow units/wings/regions to adjust.  At Kurt's CP update, no remarks on proposed changes were made.

I didn't see any team use the white rifles.  They look so cheap and tacky, why would a team want them? 
Here is the update and the photos:

http://nationalcadetcompetition.com

[a2capt]

I saw at least one set, but it felt like two sets, of white rifles there this year. One of the teams in our rotation had them for sure.

To me, it's not just the cheapness of the look. The fake/plastic just don't look right at all to me. I know, you use what you have, what you can afford, etc. Not everyone is as lucky at times to come across other equipment. However, if I had to use plastic rifles I'd be so inclined to add real weight to them at least. When they get picked up they swing far too easy, so easy to see it's not heavy. Plus the thickness of the stock, and the shape tend to be very square, and very noticeable at least to me.

If the difference is have no color guard or have one, and it comes down to the equipment. Use what you have. In the end, the performance will shine if you put the work into it. The rifle? It's just a prop.

[Майор Хаткевич]

One of the best legacies I left to the squadron when I went to college were the two nice rifles issued to me and another cadet at HGA. Much better than the 1903 mockups, but not quite the M-1 models (which are too heavy anyway).

[Ron1319]

http://youtu.be/e0kMfgZK8MU

Woot!  Any future team commander will be asked to please leave more than 6 inches between the cadets and the cones to save their escorts/coaches from permanent cardiovascular damage.  I almost passed out on the floor.

[a2capt]

You are not the only one. At both region and national, I swear we were all going for one members pace maker. ;-)

[Grumpy]

Last year, NHQ CP wrote a paper on proposed changes to NCC that included the Superteam issue.  The paper died on the vine.  If that is ever ressurected and approved, the changes will probably apply for the following year to allow units/wings/regions to adjust.  At Kurt's CP update, no remarks on proposed changes were made.

I didn't see any team use the white rifles.  They look so cheap and tacky, why would a team want them? 
Here is the update and the photos:

http://nationalcadetcompetition.com

I was at NCC and and I saw one color guard team with rifles with what looked like white plastic stocks. 

[Eclipse]

I was at NCC and and I saw one color guard team with rifles with what looked like white plastic stocks.

Wouldn't two 2x4's cut to length be just as good?

Isn't this supposed to be primarily about the precision of commands and actions, not who has the best sponsor?

Why doesn't NCC (and every echelon below) simply have a set of rifles that everyone uses?

These are the kinds of discussions that result in custom-tailored uniforms.

[Grumpy]

I was at NCC and and I saw one color guard team with rifles with what looked like white plastic stocks.

Wouldn't two 2x4's cut to length be just as good?

Isn't this supposed to be primarily about the precision of commands and actions, not who has the best sponsor?

Why doesn't NCC (and every echelon below) simply have a set of rifles that everyone uses?

These are the kinds of discussions that result in custom-tailored uniforms.

It's ashame that not everybody can have or afford to have the same equipment and it might be a good idea for Nat'l to have equipment available.  It would be a lot easier to travel through TSA and such.  On the other hand it would probably cut down on individuality and creativeness of the teams.  As much as you can have it with a military organization.

Our junior flag was so much taller then our senior flag that we had to modify his pole so his flag wouldn't be taller than the US Flag.  Nat'l had us use their equipment and that nullified our modification.  The US flag was once again shorter that the organizational flag.  That didn't matter either because as soon as we stepped off for our routine the US flag became detached from the top of the pole, came down and covered the cadet's head.  He did the entire routine without being able to see where they were going.  He did a great job anyway.  Who's to say?

[Eclipse]

The flags further my point.

Why are we making teams drag their stuff all over the country?

NCC, especially, should have a set of flags and a set of rifles that are used by every team.

[a2capt]

"All over the country", It's as little as two extra checked bags.  One containing rifles, and a fishing pole box works very well for two flag poles. With some people only bringing one, or one of theirs qualifying as carry on, it's no extra checked items. The flag stands can be carried on board., and fit nicely in the overhead bin or under the seat.

Rifles all have a different feel. You're correct in that the competition is more precision and action, but part of precision is fitting with how you practiced. If the rifle given weighs different than you are used to, has fittings, clips and the like in different places, you don't feel like it's in the right place.  If you are used to picking up something that has some weight to it, and suddenly you've got a light weight item, it's not going to swing naturally. Likewise if you're used to the lighter item and suddenly you've got a much heavier thing to pick up.

Could be worse, a marching band would probably need half the luggage space on the flight for just itself. A color guard and drill team travel quite efficiently, all things considered.

Like the flag set presented to the teams 5 minutes prior to performing. Granted, of the 8 teams, it didn't slide down the pole except for one, but that one being the second one, surely got at least two others to look at it before using it. I don't know if it was briefed or looked at by the next set of four teams, but myself, I've never seen a flag with only velcro around the top to hold it up on the pole. Perhaps because I've only ever looked at flags for drill. Not just indoor placement.

Part of drill is snap, and snap and velcro don't get along obviously. IE, if equipment is to be provided it should be of the proper type.

As for tailored uniforms, is not part of the regulation to wear your uniform correctly? Equally, I'll agree that some tailoring could be excessive, I'm also of the mindset that a bunch of stuff tucked into the side just doesn't cut it when all eyes are on you.

Likewise, handing a cadet a new shirt on arrival at the competition isn't exactly the most productive thing I can think of, either. Especially with airline delays and teams arriving sometimes the morning of the start. Plus see the point above, that there are times when tailoring is just plain necessary. Certainly that time is better spent practicing, and working on AE rather than an ironing marathon.

Then again, the ironing and steaming marathon was going on anyway, so maybe that would't matter.

[Eclipse]

As for tailored uniforms, is not part of the regulation to wear your uniform correctly? Equally, I'll agree that some tailoring could be excessive, I'm also of the mindset that a bunch of stuff tucked into the side just doesn't cut it when all eyes are on you.

There's a difference between "wearing your uniform correctly", and going to multiple fittings and having the shirt cut and shaped to fit better.
Cadets should be wearing their every day uniforms, not spending money on all new uniform parts, ribbons, and tailoring, to custom fit a uniform
that can't be reasonably worn elsewhere.  I have seen DT uniforms that are more jumpsuits then separates.

I have personal, direct,  knowledge that in years past my wing had literally spent thousands on custom tailored uniforms for the drill team.   A number that would make most people a little green with both envy and sickness when you consider what the operational budget for the entire wing was that same year.  That's what starts the bad feelings about "super teams" and "checkbook teams".

Standardize the rifle and the flags, and require everyone use the NHQ equipment for the actual competition.

If units choose to deviate from that standard for their practice, then it is done at their own risk, but no one can say "you didn't know".

[Bluelakes 13]

Just as an aside, NCC does supply the flags for the Competition, unless a unit brings their own.

[a2capt]

Check into that...
We brought our own, and I saw at least one other team practicing in the Home Depot parking lot, with flags. ... management said "you have to use what we provide".

Which would be fine.. As long as what is provided is fit for the job. Display only flags held on their poles by velcro are not drill equipment.

But as an effort to level the playing field, it's not much of one if one team is used to the same stuff and the other is not. It's actually now more of a dis-advantage.

[LC]

The "super teams" part was the only item I was referring to. 

I fail to see how the proposed "2 squadrons" maximum would encourage participation from everyone.

Sure you'd be doing that for larger squadrons, but smaller ones would be left behind in the endeavor. 

Let me break it down barney for you.

SDWG has 9 squadrons, with active cadet participation ranging from 2-15 cadets.  Two squadrons in the state have 10 or more active cadets. 

So basically it's either the two large squadrons make a team, or we play, "who gets to be the squadron to join one of the larger ones". while the others are left behind.  I fail to see how that benefits a local squadron at all.

All that will happen, is an influx of cadets "transferring" to the participating squadrons, and that definitely doesn't help a local unit in the least bit.


Some squadrons are bigger and smaller than others, the proposed "super team" item is ignorant of that.

Is it still a boatload of crap?

Yes



If I could change anything about the NCC rules, I would allow cadet officers to participate in color guard competition, and remove the requirement for the accompanying senior member to be 25. 
CAP goes through great lengths ensuring that it is grade that matters, and not age, but they put in regulatory dribble like that.

As being a former member of SDWG and the SD drill team. It was hard for us to get a team together with just 2 squadrons...So we had to do "super team" and use members from across the entire wing.

[a2capt]

Although, I'm not outright complaining, either. Part of the competition isn't how you perform. It's how you adapt, overcome and conquer the issues that you have not encountered yet.

No matter what happens, keep your bearing. If you are going to be wrong, be boldly wrong. (and I don't mean make big mistakes, I mean keep going.) Unless it's something blatant they may not even notice.

Whats important is do your best, and show the judges and spectators, how hard you trained to get there.

[Capination]

The winners, Puerto Rico, were quite a team. Far above and beyond the rest.  When we were talking the subject of practicing, they said they practiced every day, but I believe they were also part of a school program.

They are indeed a great team. No, they are not from a school program. They all attend different schools. Matter of fact, their squadron is based at a Community College. Their former CC (now their DT mentor) is committed. He picks up all the cadets that have no transportation, they go through a long study session (school study), he feeds them, and when they are done with assignments, then and only then, they immerse in the DT practice up to 9PM. And this goes for 7 days a week (with no study on Friday or Saturday). They put in ten hours on Sat and Sun. When I say they immerse in the DT practice I mean all the areas (mile run, volley ball, DT, theory and special sessions on ESL).  They set the example for other squadrons and, these guys are very mature for their age. Their DT mentor is a master in leadership because he makes them do what they do because they want to and not because they are required to do it. These guys breathe CAP and DT 24/7 and they enjoy it.

[Capination]

PR however has cadets transfer to the drill team squadron if they want to go to NCC based on my conversation with their escort last year.  That does not appear to be the case from many of the other teams.

Just a note to clarify. The escort that mentioned this is either: not from the unit PR-123 or ignores how the team works. The answer is NO. PR Drill Team is a team made of cadets from the same unit PR-123. And NO, no one can transfers to the unit just to participate in NCC. Their DT mentor is very jealous with not just having a professional team, but also with character formation. If a cadet wants in, he must join the unit years before and go through the whole enchilada (AE, Cadet Education, grade advancement and everything). And even this will not grant a position in the team. I've seen cadets that master the DT but lagging on character or grade advancement, and believe me, they do not get a free ticket to region competitions.

[Capination]

PRWG really "grooms" their drill team. They start training them young, and by the time the team is about 18-19 they really rock. Then those cadets age out and they have a bad team for a couple of years, then come back strong again.

At least, that was the way it was explained to me a few years ago.

I agree. Their DT mentor is fully concentrated on the Drill Team for a long period and does not have enough personnel to develop a "team behind the team" to keep continuity. Not because he doesn't want it, just lack of resources and time. He does a great job. Most of these kids come from disadvantageous sections of the Metropolitan area, yet, they all learn English, excel in academics and either: go to college and finish professional degrees or enroll in the military and excel in service. Physicians, Engineers, Attorneys, USAF Pilots, USAF and USMC Officers and enlisted...and the list goes on. All thanks to LtCol Davila and his commitment. Hats off for him.

[Ron1319]

The clarification doesn't change the fact that if the rules were such that NCC teams had to come from one squadron, you'd drain the best cadets from groups into one squadron because they'd transfer to be part of the team.  That's the opposite of why I've helped organize a team the last two years as our primary goal is to grow Phase IV cadets and cadet competency in the group.

Post NCC, I have to say that all of my previous statements about uniform prep and cost were valid.  We did all of NCC for <$200/cadet.  Some spent <$100.  If they had shoes that were in good shape already, they wore them.  Some wore their existing pants and some really just needed new ones anyway.  Everyone spent the $12-14 on a brand new shirt and we did the tailoring ourselves.   I just want to repeat this one more time in light of sensationalism about NCC team budget compared to wing HQ budget.  NCC cost the cadets less than it would have cost to attend an encampment.

Our competitiveness was EXTREMELY good for a 2nd year team in my opinion.  http://ncsas.com/ncc_winners/2011_ncc_results.cfm  As you can see, our inspection results awarded us a 2nd place trophy in inspection.  We had mistakes that we're not aware of and will do some things differently next year.  The cost of those improvements - $0.  All of them were in the preparation.  I can't say how proud I am of them for taking 1st place in standard drill, especially in competition with cadets who trained more in a week than our cadets trained all year.

As far as more equipment by NCC, they mentioned several times that they were already at or over budget and would have to figure out what they could reduce next year to be able to afford to do the event, or determine if they were going to have to charge for NCC.  Given that, I don't think they'll be buying new top of the line gear.

It doesn't take insanity to meet reasonable objectives.  Our stated objective this year was to place in the top three overall.  We know what we need to work on if there are enough cadets who want to commit to going back next year.

[Capination]

I agree. With regards to the uniforms, I've heard  that the PR-123 team keeps two sets of uniforms and shoes stored; one set for practice and set only for competitions. Congratulations on a job well done and keep the good work with your squadron.

[Ron1319]

Shoes are actually one thing I need to give more thought to.  With almost entirely new shoes and the ones that were not new looking like new we got 8/10's for shoes on inspection.  The wiped them all down carefully right before going out.  I'm not sure how we could have scored higher on "shoes."  Most of the cadets really needed new shoes anyway, so it wasn't a bad expense for them to have.  I think the biggest thing is that all of the cadets who now are used to wearing tailored shirts wear them everywhere.  They just look better than everybody with baggy shirts and they're very proud of them.  They're definitely not too tight to wear to meeting and activities, at least from our team.  Like I said, we placed a solid 2nd in inspection, so it's not like we came in last and I'm saying everyone should do it like us.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I honestly don't see how the PRWG model is something to look up to. "Breathing" DT 24/7 (even if the cadets still partake in the CAP CP as a whole), shows a complete lack of life balance.

[Capination]

Res ipsa loquitur

[Grumpy]

Res ipsa loquitur

You do and you'll clean it up!

[Capination]

 :clap: