Losing the term "Officer" as a generic term for Senior Members

[Eclipse]

1. Where does it say that CAP units can't or aren't supposed to specialize?

It doesn't - my opinion.
There is plenty of anecdotal evidence that specializing winds up excluding
otherwise interested parties.  (i.e. my unit only does ES, E, CP, etc.)

We do not have the manpower, nor are the scope of our operations such that we should be
turning away prospective members because a unit CC has decided he doesn't want to do "x".

2. Where does it say that every unit should be a Composite unit and why?

It doesn't - my opinion.

Again, units should be part of a larger picture, and while I support autonomy in >how< units
operate, they should not be able to simply say "we don't do seniors, cadets, ES, AE, whatever"
This is how we have would up with a mix of uber-units and under-performers, with no real
discussions of either.

CAP units are essentially a product of "because I felt like it", with way too few exceptions units are not
located based on need, mission, or demographics.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I think I kinda sorta disagree, Eclipse.

I think you got it backwards.  The "Specialization" does not exclude members.  It is a lack of members willing to perform a wide variety of tasks that causes units to concentrate.

If a unit commander does not have any active pilots, he will not have much of a flying program.  If he does not have enough officers with an interest in running a cadet program, he would be wise to re-configure his unit as a senior squadron, and sent prospective cadets down the street. 

I have seen lots of units with 2 to 4 cadets trying to call themselves a composite squadron, with officers more interested in the plane than in the teenagers.

[afgeo4]

The unit I am currently in, a composite squadron,  is in a process of rebuilding, but our members have primarily CP/AE/Ground ES experience, so we're concentrating on that. We have a senior squadron nearby which is excellent at flight ops, has many pilot and aircrew members and do an outstanding job at medical too. So... when we do get potential pilots and aircrew people coming by, we refer them to Falcon. When they get people interested in cadet programs or ground work, they send them to us. It works well. We all stay focused on what we train and are able to utilize our strengths. At the same time, we know our weaknesses and are able to use neighboring units to make sure that as a Group or Wing we operate efficiently.

[Eclipse]

If a unit commander does not have any active pilots, he will not have much of a flying program.

There's more to CAP ES aviation than just pilots.

If he does not have enough officers with an interest in running a cadet program, he would be wise to re-configure his unit as a senior squadron, and sent prospective cadets down the street. 

I have seen lots of units with 2 to 4 cadets trying to call themselves a composite squadron, with officers more interested in the plane than in the teenagers.

As a whole it should not be those interested in the "CP", "AE", or "ES" - it should be the "squadron" - whatever needs the unit has should be met by the members.

Its not "cadet admin" or "Senior admin" its "admin" - extrapolate the rest from there.

People specialize, the units are supposed to support the whole mission.

And were drifting...

[Eclipse]

The unit I am currently in, a composite squadron,  is in a process of rebuilding, but our members have primarily CP/AE/Ground ES experience, so we're concentrating on that. We have a senior squadron nearby which is excellent at flight ops, has many pilot and aircrew members and do an outstanding job at medical too. So... when we do get potential pilots and aircrew people coming by, we refer them to Falcon. When they get people interested in cadet programs or ground work, they send them to us. It works well. We all stay focused on what we train and are able to utilize our strengths. At the same time, we know our weaknesses and are able to use neighboring units to make sure that as a Group or Wing we operate efficiently.

FWIW its sounds to me like you're doing a pretty good job on hitting all cylinders.  Nothing's perfect and, but at least you're hitting the bases so your members have exposure to all three missions.

I'd make more of an issue with the senior unit than you guys.

[BillB]

Where did the topic go?

[mikeylikey]

Where did the topic go?

Where they all go....."the dark area between uniforms and bashing Wings".

Back on topic.......I say mandate the use of Officer to represent all Adult Members of CAP, that are not NCO's, Patrons, etc.  Use Cadet for Cadets, NCO for NCO's, and Patrons for well Patrons.  Then for the time period before a new member actually starts walking around as an Officer, lets use the term "Officer Without Grade" or perhaps we can call them "MISTER or MISS". 

For Flight Officers, they can be called "Flight Officer".

Am I leaving any groups out?

Why isn't this a poll yet>>?

[JayT]

Where did the topic go?

Where they all go....."the dark area between uniforms and bashing Wings".

Back on topic.......I say mandate the use of Officer to represent all Adult Members of CAP, that are not NCO's, Patrons, etc.  Use Cadet for Cadets, NCO for NCO's, and Patrons for well Patrons.  Then for the time period before a new member actually starts walking around as an Officer, lets use the term "Officer Without Grade" or perhaps we can call them "MISTER or MISS". 

For Flight Officers, they can be called "Flight Officer".

Am I leaving any groups out?

Why isn't this a poll yet>>?

Aren't SMwoG, Flight Officers, and Patron members suppose to be called 'Mister' anyway?

[afgeo4]

Where did the topic go?

Where they all go....."the dark area between uniforms and bashing Wings".

Back on topic.......I say mandate the use of Officer to represent all Adult Members of CAP, that are not NCO's, Patrons, etc.  Use Cadet for Cadets, NCO for NCO's, and Patrons for well Patrons.  Then for the time period before a new member actually starts walking around as an Officer, lets use the term "Officer Without Grade" or perhaps we can call them "MISTER or MISS". 

For Flight Officers, they can be called "Flight Officer".

Am I leaving any groups out?

Why isn't this a poll yet>>?

Aren't SMwoG, Flight Officers, and Patron members suppose to be called 'Mister' anyway?

uh huh... but too often people mistake SM for a grade and call people... "Senior Member So And So"

[afgeo4]

The unit I am currently in, a composite squadron,  is in a process of rebuilding, but our members have primarily CP/AE/Ground ES experience, so we're concentrating on that. We have a senior squadron nearby which is excellent at flight ops, has many pilot and aircrew members and do an outstanding job at medical too. So... when we do get potential pilots and aircrew people coming by, we refer them to Falcon. When they get people interested in cadet programs or ground work, they send them to us. It works well. We all stay focused on what we train and are able to utilize our strengths. At the same time, we know our weaknesses and are able to use neighboring units to make sure that as a Group or Wing we operate efficiently.

FWIW its sounds to me like you're doing a pretty good job on hitting all cylinders.  Nothing's perfect and, but at least you're hitting the bases so your members have exposure to all three missions.

I'd make more of an issue with the senior unit than you guys.

The senior unit in question is hitting on all cylinders as well. They are the leading squadron for operations in the Group responsible for over 8 million residents. They provide the bulk of ES training as well.

[SoCalCAPOfficer]

Back on topic.  I am still at a loss as to why so many people on this board want to try so hard to distinguish us from the military.  They do not like rank or any of the military trappings.   They would have us all in that stupid uniform they have come up with for VSAF.   I just dont get it.  Why are we looking for problems that do not exist.

[Eclipse]

Back on topic.  I am still at a loss as to why so many people on this board want to try so hard to distinguish us from the military.  They do not like rank or any of the military trappings.   They would have us all in that stupid uniform they have come up with for VSAF.   I just dont get it.  Why are we looking for problems that do not exist.

I'm sorry, but I don't see how a "Senior Member" vs. "Officer Member" vs. "other" discussion falls into the "anti-military" category.

This has nothing to do with grade, it simply the "adults" vs. "Cadets" generic distinction.

[afgeo4]

There's nothing "anti-military" here, Major Hough. The discussion concerns a topic that actually doesn't exist in the military at all. Members without grade. We know that everyone from FO to LtGen are Officers. Sir, in your opinion, are SM without grade Officers? Are they simply Officer Trainees/Candidates?

[LittleIronPilot]

The CAP model does not call for "typing" a unit.

Although many units specialize, they aren't really supposed to.

Every unit in CAP should be a composite and they should be pushed to fire on all cylinders.
(Note: I realize that just saying it doesn't make it happen...)

A unit CC's ability to treat CAP like a cafeteria plan is a weakness of the program.

I respectfully, and strongly, disagree.

I think unit specialization, and separation from Cadets, is something that happens and should be allowed to happen. It all depends on the location of the squadron and the desires/needs of the members of the squadron, period.

Based on some here...since I have no real interest to work much with the Cadets (just not my thing) I should not join CAP since I am not willing to "do my part" to tackle all three missions of CAP.

As the unit ES Officer I have my hands full just trying to keep that running. Yes we incorporate the Cadets in our training, but too be honest, not many are interested. Not too mention that Cadets under 18 cannot fly on missions and many of our "customers" do not want to see anyone under 18 on an actual missing persons search, or aircraft crash, etc. it makes it hard to convince the Cadets to spend the time on ES. Instead that are into D&C, Encampments, Drill Team, Honor Guard, you get the picture.

[Gunner C]

Aren't SMwoG, Flight Officers, and Patron members suppose to be called 'Mister' anyway?

uh huh... but too often people mistake SM for a grade and call people... "Senior Member So And So"

WIWAC there was a poster that had all of the CAP grades on it.  Along with it there was the correct abbreviation for each and "Title of Address".  Do we have anything that does this in any medium?

BTW, on that poster it said that senior member was addressed as "Senior Member".

[SoCalCAPOfficer]

There's nothing "anti-military" here, Major Hough. The discussion concerns a topic that actually doesn't exist in the military at all. Members without grade. We know that everyone from FO to LtGen are Officers. Sir, in your opinion, are SM without grade Officers? Are they simply Officer Trainees/Candidates?

If we were only talking about Members without grade, that would not bother me.  But I got the distinct impression from reading  these posts that many do not like the term "officer" at all in referring to Adult Members.   It seemed to me they wanted to go back to calling all  adult members, "Senior Members". 

I have always hated the term "Senior Members" in describing our adult membership.   As was stated by other posters it sounds like and is misunderstood that we are "Senior" as in "Elderly".   While many of us are indeed "Senior Citizens", including myself, I do not think that is a proper term to call CAP "Officers".  We are a volunteer organization which in many respects is based upon a military model.   The term "Officer"is professional, respectful, and is an accurate description for those that have met the qualifications to wear the rank.

Finally, the number of members without grade is so small, what we call them is not a great problem that needs to be resolved.  "Mister" works just fine.  Once again, if its not broke, do not fix it.

[CAP_truth]

We call our new cadet members without grade Cadet Basic, why don't we do the same for our senior members  without grade being call Senior Basic

[cnitas]

Why don't we call our adult members....


wait for it....




Adult Members??

[afgeo4]

We call our new cadet members without grade Cadet Basic, why don't we do the same for our senior members  without grade being call Senior Basic

Cadets DO have grade as soon as they become members. C/Airman Basic is the grade.  Just like it's a grade in USAF. Airman Basic (AB) is E-1.

[afgeo4]

There's nothing "anti-military" here, Major Hough. The discussion concerns a topic that actually doesn't exist in the military at all. Members without grade. We know that everyone from FO to LtGen are Officers. Sir, in your opinion, are SM without grade Officers? Are they simply Officer Trainees/Candidates?

If we were only talking about Members without grade, that would not bother me.  But I got the distinct impression from reading  these posts that many do not like the term "officer" at all in referring to Adult Members.   It seemed to me they wanted to go back to calling all  adult members, "Senior Members". 

I have always hated the term "Senior Members" in describing our adult membership.   As was stated by other posters it sounds like and is misunderstood that we are "Senior" as in "Elderly".   While many of us are indeed "Senior Citizens", including myself, I do not think that is a proper term to call CAP "Officers".  We are a volunteer organization which in many respects is based upon a military model.   The term "Officer"is professional, respectful, and is an accurate description for those that have met the qualifications to wear the rank.

Finally, the number of members without grade is so small, what we call them is not a great problem that needs to be resolved.  "Mister" works just fine.  Once again, if its not broke, do not fix it.

I think the issue is of calling all those who we know as senior members, "officers", no matter what their grade is. Calling someone who is 2nd Lt and above an officer is of course no contest, so the only question then is what do we call those who are of no grade? NCOs are called NCOs and Flight Officers are still Officers.