Need help on CAP attack on U-boat info

Started by AlaskanCFI, December 07, 2006, 10:55:41 PM

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

AlaskanCFI

Does anyone have the dates, location and any other info about the two U-boats reported to have been sunk by CAP crews during WWII??

I have read the basic accounts in several places. 
NOW, I have a person who doubts it ever happened giving me a hard time. 

So I would like your help blowing her out of the water

xxx

Fixed tags - MIKE
Major, Squadron Commander Stan-Eval..Instructor Pilot- Alaska Wing CAP
Retired Alaska Air Guard
Retired State of Alaska Law Dawg, Retired Vol Firefighter and EMT
Ex-Navy, Ex-Army,
Firearms Instructor
Alaskan Tailwheel and Floatplane CFI
http://www.floatplanealaska.com

DNall

There's dates in the history of CAP booklet avail on the national website. I want to say May 11, 43 or 44, but don't quote me on that. The Asst National Historian has some comments under the announcements area. PM him & I'm sure he'd be happy to provide detailed info, including where the public records can be found. The first two Air Medals ever awarded were to CAP members, and I believe they were the crew involved, but again I'm not the guy to be quoting.

RiverAux

The first 2 air medals went to Maj. Hugh Sharp and Lt. Edmond Edwards for rescuing the crew of a CAP plane that crashed into the ocean.  From CAP Historical Monograph Number 2. 

ELTHunter

Quote from: DNall on December 07, 2006, 11:33:38 PM
There's dates in the history of CAP booklet avail on the national website. I want to say May 11, 43 or 44,

I don't think CAP was still doing anti-sub work in 44, were they?
Maj. Tim Waddell, CAP
SER-TN-170
Deputy Commander of Cadets
Emergency Services Officer

DNall

Didn't I just say don't quote me?  ;D PM the historian & get the right info. 

AlaskanCFI

I sent him an e-mail. 
This is kinda interesting as it shows the mood of the times...
this came from a site about Ernest Hemmingway who cruised around looking for U-boats in his yacht.

In the first few months of the war the Navy was critically short of patrol and escort vessels and long-range patrol aircraft, had no escort aircraft carriers for convoys, and indeed had no plans for convoys. The Army Air Forces, charged with antisubmarine warfare (ASW) in the Atlantic (until the Navy would take over that responsibility on September 1, 1943), also lacked adequate numbers of medium and long-range patrol planes. Needing help desperately, both services turned to the private sector. The Navy absorbed the Coast Guard, which had organized the civilian Coast Guard Auxiliary a month before Pearl Harbor, and in May 1942 began to form a Coastal Picket Fleet of small private craft and their owners. Its people came first from the Auxiliary then later were directly recruited. By December the fleet numbered more than 2,000 former civilian yachts and other vessels. Equipped with radio, ASW devices, and armament, the pickets made and tracked sonar contacts, investigated gunfire and oil slicks, alerted convoys to the presence of U-boats, and rescued survivors of sinkings. Those wooden boats on occasion also dropped depth charges on their steel adversaries (Willoughby 21, 76). Boats in a flotilla that the Navy sent from the Florida Keys to visit Havana in early 1942 were noted to have depth charges that looked like 50-gallon gasoline drums lashed to their sterns (Briggs 56).

    A week before the war began the Army Air Forces also organized an auxiliary, the Civil Air Patrol (CAP). On March 8, 1942, CAP pilots began flying their own planes on patrol out over coastal waters, working with the AAF from stations that eventually numbered 21, Maine to Texas.
    Those operations succeeded and before long the pickets, the short-range CAP patrols, and wide-ranging AAF and Navy air patrols had wrought a noticeable reduction in U-boat capabilities by forcing them to stay submerged in daytime, operating on the surface only on the darkest nights.
Major, Squadron Commander Stan-Eval..Instructor Pilot- Alaska Wing CAP
Retired Alaska Air Guard
Retired State of Alaska Law Dawg, Retired Vol Firefighter and EMT
Ex-Navy, Ex-Army,
Firearms Instructor
Alaskan Tailwheel and Floatplane CFI
http://www.floatplanealaska.com

floridacyclist

If you can find a copy of "From Maine to Mexico" in your library, I seem to recall it mentioning the specific incidents.
Gene Floyd, Capt CAP
Wearer of many hats, master of none (but senior-rated in two)
www.tallahasseecap.org
www.rideforfatherhood.org

Eclipse

Check out the book Shadow Divers:

http://www.amazon.com/Shadow-Divers-Americans-Everything-Mysteries/dp/0375508589

Not only is it a good read, it features a lot of background on CAP U-Boat action during the war, including some names of current members on the East coast who are still working to authenticate a 3rd kill.

It also looks like it will be a movie soon:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0466328/

"That Others May Zoom"

ELTHunter

Quote from: Eclipse on December 08, 2006, 03:44:18 PM
Check out the book Shadow Divers:

http://www.amazon.com/Shadow-Divers-Americans-Everything-Mysteries/dp/0375508589

Not only is it a good read, it features a lot of background on CAP U-Boat action during the war, including some names of current members on the East coast who are still working to authenticate a 3rd kill.

It also looks like it will be a movie soon:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0466328/

Very good book, I read it too.  I'll look forward to the movie.
Maj. Tim Waddell, CAP
SER-TN-170
Deputy Commander of Cadets
Emergency Services Officer

AlaskanCFI

Actually it's one of the minor characters in the book who is questioning our old sub chasers acomplishments. So I was looking for better info. 
From what I have so far,  the July 11, 1942 date of an aerial attack off the Coast of New jersey does not look so promising.  At least not as far as an actual sinking.   The only known sub wreck in that area, was sunk in 1945.
Major, Squadron Commander Stan-Eval..Instructor Pilot- Alaska Wing CAP
Retired Alaska Air Guard
Retired State of Alaska Law Dawg, Retired Vol Firefighter and EMT
Ex-Navy, Ex-Army,
Firearms Instructor
Alaskan Tailwheel and Floatplane CFI
http://www.floatplanealaska.com

fyrfitrmedic

Quote from: AlaskanCFI on December 09, 2006, 06:24:55 AM
Actually it's one of the minor characters in the book who is questioning our old sub chasers acomplishments. So I was looking for better info. 
From what I have so far,  the July 11, 1942 date of an aerial attack off the Coast of New jersey does not look so promising.  At least not as far as an actual sinking.   The only known sub wreck in that area, was sunk in 1945.

IIRC, another sub wreck was discovered off the NJ coast a few years back.
MAJ Tony Rowley CAP
Lansdowne PA USA
"The passion of rescue reveals the highest dynamic of the human soul." -- Kurt Hahn

JohnKachenmeister

The newly-discovered sub wreck, I'm pretty sure, is OURS.

The "historians" who have been researching this have been checking Navy and Army records, which do not include CAP operations.  Remember, until the decision was made by Hap Arnold to arm the CAP planes, CAP was part of Civil Defense.  We were declared to be the Auxiliary of the Army Air Corps and put in uniform only to qualify our members as beligerents under the Geneva Convention, should any be captured.  Record-keeping for historical use was pretty low on the "To-do" list in 1943.

IIRC, the fact that that attack resulted in a sinking may raise our total to three sub kills.  I believe it had been recorded as "Damaged" in the past.
Another former CAP officer

AlaskanCFI

I was just trying to get a firm set of dates.  Nobody WANTS to believe more than I do.... But firm data seems to be scarce.


I found one mention of a possible date for the first attack (supposed sinking) of  July 11, 1942, starting about 25 miles off Absecon New Jersey.
It was a Widgeon with two 325 pound depth charges. (the same type of plane and depth charges that the Coast Guard claimed a kill for 50 years against the U-166 which unfortunately was recently disproved)

Anyway: Subs found in that area.
The wreck of what is believed to be the U-869 was discovered just a few miles further out from this point.  But it was not build until 1944 and was sunk Feb 11, 1945 by small destroyers manned by Coast Guard crews. Who thought they were depth charging a wreck.

The U-521 was sunk about 90 miles south of that area on 06-12-43.

The U-879 was sunk on 04/30/1945 about 154 miles south.

The U-85 sank about 219 miles south on 04/14/42

The U-202 and the U-752 were operating in that area a few weeks before, but escaped.

The U -576 was sunk  down off Cape Hatteras 4 days later. (July 15, 1942) The experienced U-boat Capitan decided to surface during daylight and attack the middle of a small convoy.   He sunk one and seriously damaged two ships before being shot, depth bombed and possibly rammed.
I have always wondered if he made such an attack because his U-boat was already damaged  from CAP depth charges 4 days  before his last battle.  It would explain making a suicide surface attack.
It would have taken him 3 days at standard (s.o.p.) speeds to make it from the New Jersey siting area to Cape Hatteras.   His logs would have been lost, so there would be no available record of an aerial attack.
 

Anyway it's a possibility....
Major, Squadron Commander Stan-Eval..Instructor Pilot- Alaska Wing CAP
Retired Alaska Air Guard
Retired State of Alaska Law Dawg, Retired Vol Firefighter and EMT
Ex-Navy, Ex-Army,
Firearms Instructor
Alaskan Tailwheel and Floatplane CFI
http://www.floatplanealaska.com

Al Sayre

My father was a Squadron Commander at Lantana Fl (Coastal Patrol Base 3) in the '50's, when a lot of the Subchasers were still around.  I met quite a few of them when I was growing up in the 60's and remember hearing their stories, especially about about a guy named Ted Keys who supposedly shacked a 50 lb bomb down the conning tower of a German Sub that was stuck on a sandbar off of Lantana FL.  The sub stayed on the bar till the early-mid 60's when it was washed off by a hurricane into about 60' depth.  I have talked to people who used to scuba dive on it, and last I heard it was at about 120' depth around 2 miles east of the Lantana Bridge.  You could probably talk to Owen Gassaway at Florida Airmotive, he's still around, and was one of the mechanics for the Coastal Patrol Base.
Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
GRW #2787

NYWG Historian

In the Florida Historical Quarterly (Spring 1998) there was an article about Florida's Coastal Patrol Bases that implies that some of the heaviest U-boat activity was off Florida.  The article references a source document by CY Nanney that is the base history of Coastal Patrol #5.  Sadly, while I've seen this document referenced in numerous locations before, I've never been able to track down a copy--nor have most of the other CAP historians I've spoken with.

The link for the FL article, which is a great read, can be found here:
http://fulltext6.fcla.edu/DLData/CF/FullText/fhq_76_4.txt

I've sent a note to the Florida Historical Quarterly's editor in the hopes of getting permission to post the article to our Wing history site, but also seeking contact info on the article's author, Thomas Reilly, to see if I can obtain a copy of the base history that way.

If anyone else has access to a copy of the history, or other ideas I can track it down, please let me know.

I really wish we could get some help from National in getting historical materials digitized and available on the web.  Then they would be available to all as a resource, and wouldn't run the risk of being lost again.  The other key document I'm looking for is "Civil Air Patrol History, Organization, and Purpose," January 21, 1948" if anyone has some hints on that one....
Peter J. Turecek, Major, CAP
Historian
New York Wing

BillB

Next week when the students leave at the end of the semester, I can go by the University of Florida Archives and get a copy of the 1998 Florida Historical Quarterly and photocopy it.
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104

AlaskanCFI

Thanks for the info about the Lantana connection.  there were a few ships sunk by the U-564 right in that area during may 1942.


On 3rd May 1942 he sank the British 7,174 ton Ocean Venus.
On 4th May 1942 he damaged the British 9,767 ton Eclipse.
On 5th May 1942 he damaged the American 3,478 ton Delisle.
On 8th May 1942 he sank the American 6,078 ton Ohioan.
On 9th May 1942 he sank the Panamanian 7,138 ton Lubrafol.
On 14th May 1942 he sank the 4,000 ton Potrero del Llano

The U-564 escaped that area and was later sunk off the coast of Spain.

The dive sites show no U-boat wrecks in that area... There is one off the Florida Keys.  The U-157 wich was a type IXC.  Sunk on June 13, 1942 by a small Coast Guard patrol craft.  At least that is who got the credit.
Major, Squadron Commander Stan-Eval..Instructor Pilot- Alaska Wing CAP
Retired Alaska Air Guard
Retired State of Alaska Law Dawg, Retired Vol Firefighter and EMT
Ex-Navy, Ex-Army,
Firearms Instructor
Alaskan Tailwheel and Floatplane CFI
http://www.floatplanealaska.com

AlaskanCFI

More for you Florida guys:::::and Gals   :::::

Over the first seven months of 1942, the Germans sank nearly 400 vessels, including more than thirty-five ships off Florida.
The most dramatic sinking in Florida waters took place the night of April 10, 1942, when U-123 torpedoed the tanker Gulfamerica off Jacksonville Beach. The resulting fiery explosion was clearly seen onshore and curious crowds gathered to view the ship's destruction and looked on in shock as the German submarine surfaced and fired its deck gun at the tanker. In response to the Gulfamerica sinking, in which nineteen crew members were lost, Governor Spessard Holland ordered a blackout of lights that could be seen at sea and might silhouette passing ships.

The number of sinkings declined dramatically in the fall of 1942 due to increased escort and anti-submarine patrols by ships and blimps of the U.S. Navy and Coast Guard, as well as by Civil Air Patrol aircraft and private vessels. The continued presence of U-boats in Florida waters was confirmed, however, by the shooting down of an American military blimp by a German submarine in waters off the Florida Keys in July 1943.

German Saboteurs in Florida:

Florida became the scene of a bizarre plot in June 1942 when four saboteurs came ashore from German submarine U-584 near Ponte Vedra Beach. They buried boxes of explosives and other equipment in the dunes for future use. The men then boarded a bus for Jacksonville, before splitting into two groups that traveled to New York and Chicago. The agents were to join with four other saboteurs, who had landed on New York's Long Island, and then planned to bomb key railroads, bridges and factories producing goods for the war. Fortunately, one of the New York band had misgivings about his mission and surrendered them to the FBI. By June 27 all of the men had been apprehended. A military court later tried the eight Germans and found them guilty of spying. Six of the spies, including all of the Florida group, were executed.

 
Major, Squadron Commander Stan-Eval..Instructor Pilot- Alaska Wing CAP
Retired Alaska Air Guard
Retired State of Alaska Law Dawg, Retired Vol Firefighter and EMT
Ex-Navy, Ex-Army,
Firearms Instructor
Alaskan Tailwheel and Floatplane CFI
http://www.floatplanealaska.com

AlaskanCFI

MORE FOR YOU FLORIDA GALS AND GUYS:::


PBers part of tribute today for 'first line of defense'

By DAVID ROGERS
Daily News Staff Writer

Friday, December 01, 2006




(enlarge photo)
Lt. James P. Donahue was a Palm Beach resident who served in the Civil Air Patrol during World War II.
 


(enlarge photo)
Lt. Wiley Reynolds Jr.
Told his son that German officers snuck into Palm Beach.
 

On Dec. 1, 1941, just days before Japan's bombing of Pearl Harbor hastened the United States' entry into World War II, the U.S. government formed the Civil Air Patrol to help safeguard vessels along the East and Gulf coasts from German submarine attacks and mines.

A number of Palm Beach residents, including Wiley Reynolds Jr.; his cousin, Harry Hood Bassett; Woolworth heir James P. Donahue; Marshall "Doc" Rinker; Charles Munn Jr.; Ector C. Munn and Gurnee Munn, served as pilots and observers with Coastal Patrol 3.

From April 1942 to Aug. 31, 1943, members of CP-3 flew single-engine planes from Palm Beach County to Cape Canaveral, observing the waters below for U-boats, communicating with the U.S. military as needed and, on occasion, bombing suspected submarines.

The unit was based for a few months at Morrison Field, now the site of Palm Beach International Airport, then moved to its current headquarters at the Lantana Airport.

To commemorate the 65th anniversary of the Civil Air Patrol, the civilian auxiliary of the U.S. Air Force, the Historical Society of Palm Beach County will unveil a historical marker at CAP headquarters at 10 a.m. today.

The Historical Society, along with the Palm Beach County Department of Airports, submitted the application for the historic marker to the Florida Division of Historical Resources.

The young men who served as pilots and observers "were our first line of defense," said Debi Murray, the society's director of research and archives. The state's national guard was unable to perform that task because it was needed for the war effort.

"Since the military wasn't ready to protect the eastern shores of America, they set up the Civil Air Patrol to do that," Murray said. The Palm Beach County-based unit was the third unit established in the United States.

"They kept the submarines down," Murray said. "These (German) submarines had a limited amount of torpedoes; they liked to do most of their damage on the surface with deck guns. So when the Civil Air Patrol was in the air, they had to submerge."

During a CAP flight in May 1942, Rinker and Tom Manning spotted a German U-boat. The submarine was trapped for about an hour on a sandbar, but was able to escape before Army Air Corps bombers arrived. That led Washington to authorize CAP planes to be fitted with bombs, Murray said.

The small plane Reynolds used, a Stinson Reliant, had fabric-

covered wings. It could only travel about 100 mph when Reynolds, observer Owen Gassaway and its one bomb were on board, Wiley Reynolds III said Thursday from his Colorado Springs, Colo., home.

His father, a former president of First National Bank of Palm Beach, died in late 2005.

The younger Reynolds was born not long after Wiley Reynolds Jr.'s service with CAP ended. He said his dad told him that German officers snuck into Palm Beach more than once after dark to steal caviar, wine and other delicacies from a grocery store said to have been located near Town Hall.

One time, his father ditched his plane in the ocean after an engine failure. "Ditching means making as best a landing as you can" in an emergency, the younger Reynolds said.

The Stinson quickly sank, and Reynolds cringed at the sight of a huge shark beneath him, his son said. "He was terrified for a moment until he realized it was the life raft," Reynolds said. A fishing boat operator witnessed the crash and rescued the team.

Reynolds said his father and others joined the Civil Air Patrol because it was the patriotic thing to do. Many went on to join the military. "That was the spirit of the day, to defend your country," Reynolds said.

Joining Gassaway at today's ceremony will be surviving CP-3 members Charlie Weeks Jr. and David Thompson.

Weeks said he joined the Civil Air Patrol to serve his country while being able to fly. During the war, most civilian aircraft were grounded. "I just couldn't get enough of it," said Weeks, a West Palm resident.

"We flew underpowered planes that were carrying bombs out as far as 30 miles to the east, and north to what is now Patrick Air Force Base" near Cocoa Beach, Weeks said. "It was really a hazardous activity, but being young I didn't even give it a thought."

Major, Squadron Commander Stan-Eval..Instructor Pilot- Alaska Wing CAP
Retired Alaska Air Guard
Retired State of Alaska Law Dawg, Retired Vol Firefighter and EMT
Ex-Navy, Ex-Army,
Firearms Instructor
Alaskan Tailwheel and Floatplane CFI
http://www.floatplanealaska.com

MIKE

Capt Clark, it would be better if you posted only some of the article and linked to the rest instead of posting it in it's entirety.  Fair use and all.
Mike Johnston

AlaskanCFI

Hmmm,,

After reading through some U-boat logs, it looks like the U-123 was all over that area during early 1942.  They were attacked several times but escaped.
I really question the July 1942 date of the supposed CAP attack.  And of course question that it was successful.  Most aerial attacks were not.
Here are samples of a U-boat which constantly escaped after being damaged.

16 Jan 1942
The U-123 the boat was surprised and attacked by an aircraft off New York. Four bombs were dropped that missed and U-123 escaped undamaged by crash-diving.   MAYBE

18 Jan 1942
The U-123 attacks the Tanker Malay with her deck gun and set the tanker on fire.  This occurred off the North Carolina Coast.  So in two days the U-Boat was far from New York...

19 Jan 1942
The MV Kosmos II tried to ram the surfaced U-123 off Oregon Inlet.  ( Off North Carolina)  The U-boat was in shallow water, without any torpedoes left and one of the diesel engines out of order. The Germans managed to get the engine running and slowly out-distanced her at full speed.

27 Mar 1942
After being torpedoed by U-123 the American Q-ship USS Atik (AK 101) surprised and attacked the boat off the US East coast. In the action one man from U-123 was fatally wounded and the Q-ship was sunk with all hands.

2 Apr 1942
During the attack on the tanker SS (might be MV)  Liebre the boat was forced to dive by a patrol vessel and attacked with a depth charge in shallow waters. U-123 only escaped undamaged because no other attacks followed.

11 Apr 1942
After sinking the ship SS Gulfamerica the U-123 was located in shallow waters near Jacksonville Florida from what I can figure. by an aircraft which directed a destroyer to the position.  Depth charges were dropped on U-123 moving over the bottom at a depth of 20 m and badly damaged her. . Most of the damage could be repaired by the crew and the boat continued the patrol.
Major, Squadron Commander Stan-Eval..Instructor Pilot- Alaska Wing CAP
Retired Alaska Air Guard
Retired State of Alaska Law Dawg, Retired Vol Firefighter and EMT
Ex-Navy, Ex-Army,
Firearms Instructor
Alaskan Tailwheel and Floatplane CFI
http://www.floatplanealaska.com

Major Lord

My limited research into the subject is that our alleged "kills" are largely unsubstantiated, with attributed kills turning up in a far distant area or proving undamaged, but this could be a fog of war kind of thing. Also, as near as I can tell, we had no legal authority to act as combatants in WWII, and could have been hung as illegal combatants. No need to let the fact get in the way of perfectly good war stories however!

Major Lord
"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."

AlaskanCFI

#22
QuoteAlso, as near as I can tell, we had no legal authority to act as combatants in WWII,

Well, what fun would that have been?   Even as a retired  veteran of three branches, I still think that plodding along in a Widgeon with a couple 325 pound depth charges would be a nice way to spend an evening. 

Flying can be enjoyable, but high explosives and flying mixed together is positively heaven.....

Although.... If it was 1942 and I accidentally dropped a couple during a patrol, I would have convinced my flying partner to stick with a believable story.
Major, Squadron Commander Stan-Eval..Instructor Pilot- Alaska Wing CAP
Retired Alaska Air Guard
Retired State of Alaska Law Dawg, Retired Vol Firefighter and EMT
Ex-Navy, Ex-Army,
Firearms Instructor
Alaskan Tailwheel and Floatplane CFI
http://www.floatplanealaska.com

RiverAux

Quote from: Major Lord on June 23, 2012, 04:31:14 AM
Also, as near as I can tell, we had no legal authority to act as combatants in WWII, and could have been hung as illegal combatants.
They were in uniform and acting under explicit military direction.  Whats the problem? 

skymaster

Quote from: Major Lord on June 23, 2012, 04:31:14 AM
My limited research into the subject is that our alleged "kills" are largely unsubstantiated, with attributed kills turning up in a far distant area or proving undamaged, but this could be a fog of war kind of thing. Also, as near as I can tell, we had no legal authority to act as combatants in WWII, and could have been hung as illegal combatants. No need to let the fact get in the way of perfectly good war stories however!

Major Lord

     It might be a good idea to do a bit of legal/historical research beyond just the current Federal laws concerning CAP.  Under international law that the United States is a signatory to, specifically the Annex to the Hague Convention No. IV of October 18, 1907, CAP members were "legal belligerents". In fact the United States Air Force used to issue a "Department of the Air Force Certificate of Honorable Service" for wartime service that stated "Be it known that (member's grade, name, and CAPSN) served with the Armed Forces of the United States during World War II as an active member of the Civil Air Patrol, a volunteer civilian auxiliary of the U.S. Army Air Forces as a BELLIGERENT" as defined in the previously quoted section of the Hague Convention, and the said certificate was co-signed by the National Commander of Civil Air Patrol, and the Chief of Staff of the USAF.  A belligerent under international law is one who is a legal combatant who is considered legally to be a part of the sponsoring nation's military forces. This definition extends to auxiliaries of military forces, including civilian contractors and support personnel who wear a recognised uniform, and are considered to be "other forces accompanying an active military force" under both the Hague and Geneva conventions.  If you wear your a variant of your country's uniform, and are subject to a chain of command, then technically you are a "lawful combatant".  It also means that your aircraft and radios are legally considered "military arms" under the laws of war, and that you are also a legally a fair target under those same laws of war, the same as an active member of that nation's active military (as the laws of war work both ways).
   

Major Lord

Yes, its true. And under International law we ( as private citizens) would be lawful combatants as members of the Militia, but my questions about our legality as belligerents stems from not being authorized to take the war to the enemy as an organization, by an act of Congress, the only Authority with the power to authorize us to wage war. As near as I can tell , a General just decided to give us bombs one day, and that is how we became whale-killers....I have no objection to this in fact. In fact, I think Congress should issue CAP letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make it nice and legal! There is no question in my mind that we are a volunteer force supporting the regular military, which makes us subject to the Geneva Convention, and could offer us some protection if we are ever lucky enough to go to war with someone who gives a rodential sphincter about "International Law".

Major Lord
"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."

RiverAux

Why would Congress need to have specifically authorized CAP to do such things?  They didn't do separate declarations of war for the Army, Navy, Marines, etc.  Congress said go to war.  From that point on its the executive branch's job to decide what to do -- including creating CAP and then authorizing it to take part in anti-sub patrols.

Major Lord

So in your opinion, then, the Boy Scouts could be armed and activated? Congress is the sole authority for the creation of the State of War ( notwithstanding most modern President's use of the Constitution as a mere guideline, to be ignored and overridden by tyrannical decree) The POTUS is the CIC, but only over organizations that are duly federally and lawfully constituted. POTUS for instance, has no Constitutional Authority over the irregular militia, until such time as the become regular militia.

Major Lord
"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."

ol'fido

Quote from: Major Lord on June 23, 2012, 07:36:43 PM
So in your opinion, then, the Boy Scouts could be armed and activated? Congress is the sole authority for the creation of the State of War ( notwithstanding most modern President's use of the Constitution as a mere guideline, to be ignored and overridden by tyrannical decree) The POTUS is the CIC, but only over organizations that are duly federally and lawfully constituted. POTUS for instance, has no Constitutional Authority over the irregular militia, until such time as the become regular militia.

Major Lord
Is there some alternate universe where our status as combatants in WWII makes a difference? To quote John Wayne, "Out here, due process is a bullet." Unlike today's society where we have to split three dozen legal hairs every time we flush the toilet, I imagine things were a little more simple back then. Americans good. Germans bad. You want to go shoot at Germans? Here take these bombs, go forth, and kill Germans. That may be oversimplifying it but they didn't have 30 lawyers for every shooter back then either. Rules of Engagement. Don't shoot anybody that's us or with us.

Just as a sidenote, when I get done with a post, I tend to hit enter and expect to see it posted. I think I am spending too much time on FB.
Lt. Col. Randy L. Mitchell
Historian, Group 1, IL-006

Major Lord

I think you are missing the point. The original post noted a number of incidents. The totality of circumstances, and the preponderance of evidence  leads me to believe that not only did WWII era CAP never sink, let alone actually engage the enemy, but that furthermore, we had no actual authority ( other than arguably trying to make a citizens arrest!) to drop bombs on anybody, which in general, is not allowed and considered impolite.  In other words, our historical claims may indeed be a cart load of the night soil of a herd of male bovine. John Wayne's ( May he live forever in the Halls of Valhalla) paraphrase (ironically) of Chairman Mao's little Red Book is irrelevant to the conversation at hand. ( I would walk a mile to smoke a camel....or the rider, and think that killing bad guys is a remarkably effective way of disenfranchising their power base. ) The larger question in my mind, and how it is relevant today, is whether we broke the law first, and lied second, or the other way around. Maybe we had the guy from "Red Dawn" doing our body, i.e, submarine count.... ( "The enemy takes their sunken subs with them to keep us from finding them!")

As to the issue of a private organization waging war on an enemy, it use to be pretty normal; The Duke of someplaceorother would raise a regiment and go forth and slay the enemy. Sounds awesome to me. Since we don't have any "enemies" anymore ( having essentially abandoned the Constitution, and having re-designated terrorists as misunderstood lad's not having the benefit of American Public Schools to make them good citizens and democratic voters) You might find that having your Church Group stop off at Big 5 for shotguns and ammo and going to lend a hand ( presumably on our side) in West Dirkadirkistan by wacking Haji's may not be considered as a valid or lawful way to support our "War", even if Generalisimo Pineda, Hap Arnold, Or Fiorella Laguardia told you to.

Major Lord
"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."