NEC Minutes - Draft - Nov 2009

[desertengineer1]

As far as the picture ID cards are concerned, CAP is already behind by about 1 1/2 months to issuing the plastic non photo ID cards.     
RM

Umm.. Nope.  I got my new card about a week after promotion.  Nice try.

[desertengineer1]

Thanks for the heads up, Yes the actual "draft" minutes can be found at:  http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/BoG_2008_Dec_A66FC958F5434.pdf

I especially like the discussions on making sure a member is who she/he says they are (positive ID) due to the possibility of terrorists infiltrating CAP, and every senior member having to get a picture ID card, possibly from a government issuing ID facility
Frankly for CAP senior members it's seem that one could readily ask to see a picture ID card issued by a government agency and just check off that a government picture ID card was checked on the application, and of course as they admit the finger print card (which again the conspiracy theory comes into play that someone might submit finger prints that isn't theirs) can also be used to verify status.

As far as the picture ID cards are concerned, CAP is already behind by about 1 1/2 months to issuing the plastic non photo ID cards.  Surely most members like taking time off from work to go to a government ID issuing facility (likely a military base/facility) just to get a picture ID card.  Why not mak it simple and place a statement on the non photo card to just ask for picture ID verification.  Most mlitary bases require that a drivers' license with picture be shown at the gate for entry anyways, unless one already has a DOD/military ID card.   
RM

Military ID offices can barely handle the current load, so don't expect them to welcome CAP with open arms anytime soon.  CAP-USAF would have to get it approved at SECDEF level, assuming they were on board - which I doubt.

[Major Carrales]

Thanks for the heads up, Yes the actual "draft" minutes can be found at:  http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/BoG_2008_Dec_A66FC958F5434.pdf

I especially like the discussions on making sure a member is who she/he says they are (positive ID) due to the possibility of terrorists infiltrating CAP, and every senior member having to get a picture ID card, possibly from a government issuing ID facility
Frankly for CAP senior members it's seem that one could readily ask to see a picture ID card issued by a government agency and just check off that a government picture ID card was checked on the application, and of course as they admit the finger print card (which again the conspiracy theory comes into play that someone might submit finger prints that isn't theirs) can also be used to verify status.

As far as the picture ID cards are concerned, CAP is already behind by about 1 1/2 months to issuing the plastic non photo ID cards.  Surely most members like taking time off from work to go to a government ID issuing facility (likely a military base/facility) just to get a picture ID card.  Why not mak it simple and place a statement on the non photo card to just ask for picture ID verification.  Most mlitary bases require that a drivers' license with picture be shown at the gate for entry anyways, unless one already has a DOD/military ID card.   
RM

Military ID offices can barely handle the current load, so don't expect them to welcome CAP with open arms anytime soon.  CAP-USAF would have to get it approved at SECDEF level, assuming they were on board - which I doubt.

This is one place I don't think we should go.  The reason is that we have members with all levels of participation.  Only the most active CAP Officers should ever even consider an id of that caliber and then only for "special service" and intensive background check.  Just my opinion on the matter.

[jimmydeanno]

Only the most active CAP Officers should ever even consider an id of that caliber ...

Or the most active Burger King employees at the base foodcourt...

[Major Carrales]

Only the most active CAP Officers should ever even consider an id of that caliber ...

Or the most active Burger King employees at the base foodcourt...

And your point is?  If we are issuing military id's to every member, including those with minimal business on the base, you are inviting abuse.  The Burger King employees have daily business on a Military Reservation, the every day just-off-the-street CAP Officer does not need such an id merely because CAP Officers need an id.

Now, depending on the situation the use of a military id for CAP officers may be warranted.  If you meet at a base, or have augmentation duties, or regular missions operating or the like...and require one based on your level of participation, then that is fine.

HOWEVER...

I can see the adverse effects this could cause when some Squadron Commander starts churning SMWOGs through the process like they were lining up for stamp from Chuck E Cheese.  Then some less than trained one makes some faux pas that gets the Squadron thrown off the base. 

No, this occasion, if we are going to push for military ids, it must be for only the selected few.

[Spike]

All Military installations can produce "locally produced" ID Cards for use on the installation, and the card can dictate exactly what level of entry the person receives. 

All Government departments have some version of the "local card", other than the CAC.  So, CAP-USAF needs to start working hard and get things done.  Time is past due to get this situation ironed out.

[desertengineer1]

All Military installations can produce "locally produced" ID Cards for use on the installation, and the card can dictate exactly what level of entry the person receives. 

All Government departments have some version of the "local card", other than the CAC.  So, CAP-USAF needs to start working hard and get things done.  Time is past due to get this situation ironed out.

They are issued ID cards because it is required of their employment and each is approved by derived authority of the installation commander.  You cannot argue the same situation for CAP members. 

Besides, I don't see justification in the man hours required to issue ID cards.  CAP is not mission essential for operation of an air base.  Sorry...

[MikeD]

So whats the "Air Patrol Ribbon" for?

DHS, Forest Fire Patrols, Coast Watch Patrols and the new SUAV missions.

What's the new SUAV mission?  I haven't heard about anything UAV for us other then the "UAV Surrogate" which iirc was geared more towards Predator/Reaper class.

I've got about 20 hours in Raven-B, a couple hundred sim, and a couple in Wasp, it'd be nice to start tacking on to that.

[RogueLeader]

What's the new SUAV mission?  I haven't heard about anything UAV for us other then the "UAV Surrogate" which iirc was geared more towards Predator/Reaper class.

Just that, only diffrent arraingment of letters.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I would think that many National Guard facilities would have the necessary equipment to do an ID card for CAP(?)

Also, I would hold off on issuing a DOD-type photo ID to an SMWOG...it should wait until they pin on second looie.

[Major Carrales]

I would think that many National Guard facilities would have the necessary equipment to do an ID card for CAP(?)

Also, I would hold off on issuing a DOD-type photo ID to an SMWOG...it should wait until they pin on second looie.

I would go farther and wait until they displayed a need to have such an ID, such as an operational qualification and/or assigned duty where a card would be needed.  Those that have them already as members of the Armed Forces likely have other business out side of CAP.

I have often toyed with, but not in a detailed manner, about a sort of stratified system on CAP.  The outer layer would included new people and those that operate at a squadron level in a "functional" capacity. By that I mean your squadron staffers that would not readily need an ID of the type mentioned. A more advanced level would be for those involved in heavy ES including SAR, those that might need access to various flight lines or military facilities related to training and operation.  The most advanced level would encompass those areas where more scrutiny would be required...such as those in CD or HS missions...and would require heavy "screening" due to the sensative nature of the missions.

I have never given this much thought in that I don't like artificial divisions in CAP (as one could easily reference the arguments between myself and RiverAux in the thread on "easy" and "difficult" specialty tracks.)

I can, however, set aside my bias to be objective. 

I regard a DOD or other military identification card to be of special consideration.  Such cards often carry with them certain benefits and authorizations that require a tempered application for CAP use.  Many may feel this is "unjustified," specially members of our armed forces who may see them as a mundane or routine part of their lives and daily existence. 

I, however, as a CAP civilian have had to deal with base security from the CAP perspective and based on that feel that having a military ID is representative of something potentially easily abused.  Thus, I must uphold the opinion that only those that need such an ID should have them.

I can see no rational argument for all CAP personal to have one, especially if they do not need one.  I, for example, have such limited business on the Naval Air Stations of my area that I could place myself on a list of people that does not need one. Now, if I were more involved in activities on said facilities I could see having one.  But visiting the Post Exchange is not a compelling enough reason to have one.

Now, if the USAF mandated it of CAP members or if the DOD issued a version of such a card for Auxiliaries of the various services...then I would be all for it due to its legitimizing effect for CAP and the USCGAux.

Now, I could be wrong about this.  If so, convince me.

[SarDragon]

As has been discussed before, using the DD 1173 would likely meet our basic needs. That's the tan one everybody calls the dependent's ID card, but that's a misnomer. It has provisions for identifying various privileges, and requires no additional special template. If you wanted to go one step farther, get a new template with the CAP seal on it.

JMHO; YMMV.

[Major Carrales]

As has been discussed before, using the DD 1173 would likely meet our basic needs. That's the tan one everybody calls the dependent's ID card, but that's a misnomer. It has provisions for identifying various privileges, and requires no additional special template. If you wanted to go one step farther, get a new template with the CAP seal on it.

JMHO; YMMV.

Fascinating...I would like to know more and will look it up tomorrow.  However, initial inquires on the matter revealed this...

"The Department of Defense issues eligible dependents and other eligible individuals a distinct identification card (ID) authorizing them to receive Uniformed Services benefits and privileges. Active duty family members and military retirees and their dependents receive a tan colored ID Card (DD Form 1173). The tan ID cards authorize access to commissary exchange and certain morale, welfare and recreation privileges."

Do CAP Officers, and cadets, warrant the benefits that this brings.  The "commissary exchange" is meaningful to the extent of purchasing uniforms et al, however "certain morale, welfare and recreation privileges" are of the type that can be abused and may go beyond a CAP Officer or Cadet's scope of operations.

[SarDragon]

If it's not specifically indicated on the card - NEX, Commissary, or MWR - then they don't have the privilege. Mine happens to have all three.

Without those authorizations, the card still functions as a picture ID recognized by the gate goons.

[Gunner C]

Fascinating...I would like to know more and will look it up tomorrow.  However, initial inquires on the matter revealed this...

"The Department of Defense issues eligible dependents and other eligible individuals a distinct identification card (ID) authorizing them to receive Uniformed Services benefits and privileges. Active duty family members and military retirees and their dependents receive a tan colored ID Card (DD Form 1173). The tan ID cards authorize access to commissary exchange and certain morale, welfare and recreation privileges."

The part about military retirees is incorrect.  We still receive the old DD Form 2 Uniformed Services Identification Card.  The retiree form is blue. [/correction]

[High Speed Low Drag]

IDs are right down my professional line  I have fingerprinted several senior members for their cards, and signed it as "Lt. G. St. Pierre, LRPD."  I have no problem if the FBI wanted to call and verify who I was, but it would be hard to do if I hadn't ID'd my agency.

My opinion – require that the fingerprint card be accompanied by a CAPF that the printing agency/tech fills out.  A simple form, but one that would require & instruct the printing agency to verify the identity of the person requesting FPing.  This could be done by a state-issued DL, or ID, and a secondary form of ID.  The FPing tech/officer would then fill in their Name, Rank, Employee ID (or Badge) Number, Agency, Agency Contact Number, Agency Address, and ORI.  This form, signed, would accompany the Fingerprint card.  (I would even prefer that the information be pre-printed on the back of the card.)  When the SQ Commander accepts the application and the card w/ form, they would also review the identification of the person and verify again that everything matches.  If they have any question or suspect something, it wouldn't be hard to contact the FPing agency and verify the information.

Then everything goes as normal.  They would receive the current non-picture ID card.  However, within 60 days, the member would be required to submit their picture and have the picture ID card sent out from National.  The added requirement would be that before access to any training / actual mission or access to any base, the CAP member would have to present the picture ID along with the state-issued ID. 

This would prevent from overloading "govt-issuing facilities," while still providing for positive ID of members.
I agree with Maj. Carrales, I really wouldn't want the average CAP member running around with a DOD card without a whole lot more vetting.

[Spike]

How about this then.....

http://www.cac.mil/CardInfoIdentification.html

A "Civilian" CAC.  No benefits associated with it.  It can be used in the future by CAP to authenticate members info and log on to computers should CAP decide it wants to move into the twenty-first century. 

For the "Affiliation" section of the Card it can say "Air Force", and for the seal....well it can have the CAP seal.  It would not even be too hard to change "civilian" to "Auxiliary Member". 

The Cards can even be printed with "NO MWR/Commissary/ Exchange benefits" right on the front.

Everyone is thinking the CAC is military.  It is not.  The military uses it, but it is a Government Agency ID Card.  The law was passed to get all those associated with the Government the CAC by 2011 anyway.

CAP-USAF needs to get working, and actually help out the Civil Air Patrol!!!!!!

[desertengineer1]

How about this then.....

http://www.cac.mil/CardInfoIdentification.html

A "Civilian" CAC.  No benefits associated with it.  It can be used in the future by CAP to authenticate members info and log on to computers should CAP decide it wants to move into the twenty-first century. 

For the "Affiliation" section of the Card it can say "Air Force", and for the seal....well it can have the CAP seal.  It would not even be too hard to change "civilian" to "Auxiliary Member". 

The Cards can even be printed with "NO MWR/Commissary/ Exchange benefits" right on the front.

Everyone is thinking the CAC is military.  It is not.  The military uses it, but it is a Government Agency ID Card.  The law was passed to get all those associated with the Government the CAC by 2011 anyway.

CAP-USAF needs to get working, and actually help out the Civil Air Patrol!!!!!!

I don't support AF issued identification for CAP.  I think there is little benefit to the AF compared to the overall expense it would incur.  The man-hours, cards, and material costs have to come from somewhere.  Installation FSS's barely have enough O&M funding to support immediate needs, and you want CAP-USAF to ask them to issue another family of them?

Our ANG base can't support current ID card needs (Thanks to BRAC).  There's no way it could consider supporting CAP members.  It takes at least 3 hours to get a "regular" ID card, and that's if the one full time employee who does them is there AND you have an appointment scheduled.

The USAF will most likely not even consider this for discussion until a cost study can be performed.  Even if that were to occur, I doubt CAP ranks very high if compared to operational needs.

Sorry to burst peoples' bubble on this.  It's obvious many of you are out of touch with today's force support capabilities and priorities.  We have extremely limited resources.   

[PhoenixRisen]

How about this then.....

A "Civilian" CAC.  No benefits associated with it.  It can be used in the future by CAP to authenticate members info and log on to computers should CAP decide it wants to move into the twenty-first century.

Been there, tried that, shot down.

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=66.0


The "Sorry, no can do" letter from CAP-USAF is attached.

This is what it was supposed to look like, compared to the USAF CAC:

http://capblog.typepad.com/.shared/image.html?/photos/uncategorized/capvscac.jpg

[NCRblues]

If it's not specifically indicated on the card - NEX, Commissary, or MWR - then they don't have the privilege. Mine happens to have all three.

Without those authorizations, the card still functions as a picture ID recognized by the gate goons.

As being a past "gate goon" I take offense to this term. The gate guards (at least SF) are Law enforcment officers, with the power to arrest, detain, and ticket you, and hold the power to allow you access to the base, with or without a cac or another form if ID.

Speaking from experience, the "gate goons" are not briefed on what cap is at all. If it wasn't for me being in cap, I would have never know what you people in almost AF blues wearing officers grade where doing there.

Some cap members act like it's an insult for every SF airman, and contracted gate guard, to not greet cap officers with the same respect as the captains and LT's that drove through before him.

In a post 9/11 world, if you were the gate guard and had no clue what cap was, if someone drove up to your gate, with somewhat AF blues on, and handed you a driver's license instead of a military id, you would greet him with less than happy enthusiasm.

Speaking as a cap member and AD Air force, cap does not need a blank check access to the base that a cac card type of id would allow for. It takes maybe 5 minutes at the visitor's center, to tell them who you are and why you're there, they make a phone call to the base command center they say sure send em on, and bam you're on for the day. We really don't need any more than that.