Should CAP members have BX privileges?

[lordmonar]

One reason for not allowing unlimited AAFES/Services privilages is that the base commanders would not like to have all these "unauthorised" personnel on their base.

We have problems getting cadet's parents onto base sometime as it is.

[AlphaSigOU]

One reason for not allowing unlimited AAFES/Services privilages is that the base commanders would not like to have all these "unauthorised" personnel on their base.

We have problems getting cadet's parents onto base sometime as it is.

And that's exactly how I feel. If you're a member of CAP on official business, IN PROPER UNIFORM and utilizing base facilities under a military support authorization, then I have no problem with full BX privileges for the duration of the stay. Otherwise, it should be restricted to MCSS or other privileges (MWR) only as extended by the base/post commander. The potential for abuse is lurking around the corner. I wouldn't mind extending full online shopping privileges for uniforms only.

Way back when I was a wee young lad living in Venezuela (long before that S.O.B Chávez screwed up everything) my family had a connection from a family friend in the Venezuelan military who got us a year-long pass into IPSFA (Instituto de Prevision Social de las Fuerzas Armadas - Social Services Institute of the Armed Forces), the Venezuelan equivalent of AAFES.) The savings between IPSFA and the outside wasn't much.

[Pylon]

One reason for not allowing unlimited AAFES/Services privilages is that the base commanders would not like to have all these "unauthorised" personnel on their base.

We have problems getting cadet's parents onto base sometime as it is.

Having the ability to purchase things at AAFES while on CAP business doesn't mean that the base is required to let you on the facility.  It also doesn't mean CAP members are going to show up in droves to do their Sunday grocery shopping either.

As an active member of the military I say no. BX privledges are reserved for those who are currently serving, their dependents and retired military. This is a privledge for those who have served and are serving. Sorry to be so blunt.

Put the shoe on the other foot, if CAP had a BX specifically designated for CAP, how would it feel for the those in the military to come in and take from you uniform supplies that you need or any other materials you might need? CAP has vanguard and you should use it.

Uhm... what?  Your example makes no sense.  CAP already is authorized to use the MCSS to purchase uniform items.  Unless of course you're advocating them revoking the existing privilege. 

Plus, I know it would put a real kink in an airman's life if they ran to the MCSS for an emergency stock up on blousing bands, and a CAP member had just taken the last 25¢ set!   


Pros to allowing CAP to use AAFES:

1.  More money flows to the local military units through increased AAFES sales.
2.  CAP members don't have to drive off-base while working on-base, just to buy a soda or get that needed pillow or bottle of tylenol during encampment, or whatever.


Cons to allowing CAP to use AAFES:

1.  Appearance that active military members, reservists, guardsman, retirees and their wives and children are having their benefits diluted by people who have not earned them.  Earning it by marriage or by happenstance of to whom you were born is still earning it.  Performing Air Force assigned missions without pay for hundreds of hours in a year does not qualify in the eyes of many.
2.  Increased chance of people on base seeing CAP members.  Could be bad, because we're embarrassed of some of our members and we don't want them seen by certain groups of people.  (Hmm...)


Frankly, CAP isn't going to get any AAFES benefits over the existing MCSS/uniforms provision.  While it's nice to dream, you might as well wish for unreal things like enough support to repair our aging vehicle fleet, the ability to draw uniform surplus from places like DRMO, JROTC and BMT washouts, or for your squadron to not have to hold bake sales to scrounge up enough money for training so they can provide a free service for our the community.  Dream on, kids. 

[SarDragon]

Pros to allowing CAP to use AAFES:

1.  More money flows to the local military units through increased AAFES sales.

Please refresh me on how this works. How does money flow to the local military units?

[afgeo4]

Pros to allowing CAP to use AAFES:

1.  More money flows to the local military units through increased AAFES sales.

Please refresh me on how this works. How does money flow to the local military units?

It doesn't. It flows back to AAFES and allows it to grow and provide better services for our military in CONUS and abroad.

[SarDragon]

That was aimed at the person who made the statement.

[Stonewall]

Frankly, CAP isn't going to get any AAFES benefits over the existing MCSS/uniforms provision. 

And that's why I love this type of poll/discussion.  It's like my Utility Uniform thread, it will never move past the CAP Talk forum as it was just a casual "gee-wiz" type of suggestion among CAP Talkers, but some folks get very bent out of shape.  Most of the time, these polls are conducted just to see what folks think and it works.  It also works to get some folks fired up.   

[mikeylikey]

Pros to allowing CAP to use AAFES:

1.  More money flows to the local military units through increased AAFES sales.

Please refresh me on how this works. How does money flow to the local military units?

It doesn't. It flows back to AAFES and allows it to grow and provide better services for our military in CONUS and abroad.

Actaully profits over the costs go directly to the base or post MWR, so it really does go back to helping units and military members.  When I was at Sill, the AAFES operations donated enough to the MWR that a new gym was built and most if not all units got a donation to thier "flower funds".   

[Gunner C]

From the Moody thread:

And extra people spending money at the BX would be bad how? The AAFES depends on spending to run their operations. The more people spend their money there, the better off AAFES is.

I find it wrong funny that the local BX/PX will let the local PD shop, but not Civil Air Patrol.

Not that I have a habit of following the AAFES profit margin, but I'm quite sure they do just fine without a few thousand CAPers running around.

I can picture it now, the 15-person CAP family we used to have in DC Wing in the 90s strolling through Andrews AFB BX with 5 carts like kids in a candy store.  Then, loading up the CAP van to go sell all the stuff they bought at a 15% mark up.

That's illegal - there's tax evasion in there.  Since BXs are on military installations, they're not subject to state sales tax.  At Ft Bragg, State Troopers used to watch for folks coming out of the Package Store.  They'd stop them just off post and go through their trunk.  If they had more than what they considered "personal use", they'd arrest them for trafficking untaxed booz. 

Same goes for what you described above.  The OSI would eventually catch up with them and CAP would be all over the papers, yet again.  Bad juju.

But, Jimmy Carter (my "favorite" president [/sarcasm] issued an executive order directing all on-base services to be similarly priced with the surrounding community.  So the price/profit motive kinda is moot. 

GC

[Stonewall]

Pros to allowing CAP to use AAFES:

1.  More money flows to the local military units through increased AAFES sales.

Local units get money from AAFES?

2.  CAP members don't have to drive off-base while working on-base, just to buy a soda or get that needed pillow or bottle of tylenol during encampment, or whatever.

a)  CAP folks or anyone for that matter, regardless of status, are allowed to eat at the commercial places on base such as McDonald's, Anthony's Pizza, BK, etc.

b) If CAP members are at an official CAP function and occupying government facilities for something such as Staff College or Encampment, then apparently they are allowed to use the BX/NEX/MCX/PX.

I just learned that from this thread.

Cons to allowing CAP to use AAFES:

1.  Performing Air Force assigned missions without pay for hundreds of hours in a year does not qualify in the eyes of many.

This is actually a problem I would have if CAP members had full bennies.  While a lot of CAP Talkers, Squadron Commanders, DCCs and the lifer ES folks out there are addicted to CAP and its missions, just like I used to be, these folks only make up about what, 15% of CAP?  Maybe 20%?  So, much like a ton of folks join CAP to get into the base flying club or use the CAP a/c for gaining hours but really don't contribute much to CAP, we'd have boat load of folks using the heck out of AAFES but maybe not even own a CAP uniform.  I don't think it's worth giving such a good benefit to everyone just becuase a small percentage of CAP lifers spend hundreds of hours doing something they enjoy for the Air Force.

2.  Increased chance of people on base seeing CAP members.  Could be bad, because we're embarrassed of some of our members and we don't want them seen by certain groups of people.  (Hmm...)

Chances are if CAP folks had BX privileges they wouldn't be in uniform while there unless they were doing something for CAP, so I don't think we'd gain too much notice.  And sadly, you are correct that some of our members are embarassing, but mostly that's because we don't instill the importance of conduct and proper wear of the military uniforms.

[mikeylikey]

That's illegal - there's tax evasion in there.  Since Bxs are on military installations, they're not subject to state sales tax.  At Ft Bragg, State Troopers used to watch for folks coming out of the Package Store.  They'd stop them just off post and go through their trunk.  If they had more than what they considered "personal use", they'd arrest them for trafficking untaxed booz. 

Wow, that would suck for the COPS and State.  I would get a lawyer and make the case I was going to have a party, and was stocking up.  I think I would win.  PLUS, Inst that entrapment and illegal search and seizure.  Did they have a guy on the FEDERAL Army Post reporting back to law enforcement off post? 

But, Jimmy Carter (my "favorite" president [/sarcasm] issued an executive order directing all on-base services to be similarly priced with the surrounding community.  So the price/profit motive kinda is moot. 

Ummm.....until about 3 years ago booze and cigarettes were significantly cheaper than off post.  It was a DOD directive that said booze and cigarettes could only be 7 percent below off post prices. Prior to that a carton of Marlboro's cost 25 bucks, while off post it was in the 40 dollar range. 

[Pylon]

Local units get money from AAFES?

Please refresh me on how this works. How does money flow to the local military units?

A portion of each sale is given to the Army and Air Force MWR programs at the installation where the sale was made.

http://www.aafes.com/pa/quickfacts/mission.htm

[star1151]

Earning it by marriage or by happenstance of to whom you were born is still earning it. 

Really?  Because as a former military dependent, I don't see how I earned anything just because of who my parents were.  I'd feel a lot better having privileges as a CAP member than as a dependent.

[Stonewall]

Local units get money from AAFES?

Please refresh me on how this works. How does money flow to the local military units?

A portion of each sale is given to the Army and Air Force MWR programs at the installation where the sale was made.

http://www.aafes.com/pa/quickfacts/mission.htm

Yeah, knew about the MWR thing, but you said "local units".  That was the reason for my question.

[mmouw]

I worked part time for AAFES when I was at Ellsworth. I asked the Store Director about CAP having access to use the BX for everyday purchases and he told me, like any good business man, he had no problem with us using it. He then said in his opinion, if you have access to the base then their doors are open to you. That is why they did away with having someone standing at the door checking IDs when you came in. It made no sense to send you down the road for the same items you can get on base. If fact he went on to say if you buy gas at the pump and use you credit card how would they know anyway. The only thing he would be concern him would be buying and then reselling at a profit.

I think that CAP and AAFES should get together and approach the AF together. AAFES is not beyond feeling the economical situation like the retailers off base. In fact the number of military I know, shop at Wal Mart more than the BX and commissary. By inviting a new group of customers in would only help AAFES. Of course act the way you would as a professional there and not be demanding.

[SarDragon]

Local units get money from AAFES?

Please refresh me on how this works. How does money flow to the local military units?

A portion of each sale is given to the Army and Air Force MWR programs at the installation where the sale was made.

http://www.aafes.com/pa/quickfacts/mission.htm

And that, IMHO, isn't quite the same as "1.  More money flows to the local military units through increased AAFES sales."

The base population certainly benefits, but the individual units don't directly see any of that money. You could have stated it better at the outset.

BTW, the system works the same way on USN ans USMC bases.

BTW2, exchanges are non-appropriated funds activities, while the commissaries are appropriated funds activities, leading to differences in entitlements. The exchanges are much more open to "outsiders" than the commissaries.

[Pylon]

And that, IMHO, isn't quite the same as "1.  More money flows to the local military units through increased AAFES sales."

The base population certainly benefits, but the individual units don't directly see any of that money. You could have stated it better at the outset.

Yes, it could have been worded better.  It should have said something like "the local installation benefits from increased sales, through increased contributions to the local MWR programs."

Does it matter?  No.  Because sales won't be increased because the feeling is that the majority of CAP members don't deserve such "benefits."

[JohnKachenmeister]

Pros to allowing CAP to use AAFES:

1.  More money flows to the local military units through increased AAFES sales.

Please refresh me on how this works. How does money flow to the local military units?

The "Profits" from the operations of the exchanges funds other non-appropriated fund activities such as MWR facilities.  Reserve units are paid a cash amount based on man-days the unit was on post which goes into the unit fund.

[SARMedTech]

As an Auxie I'm authorized patronage at Coast Guard Exchanges and MWR... Even says so on the back of my ID card.  IIRC the only limitations placed on me are no tobacco and alcohol, but at AAFES or NEX it's uniform items only just like CAP is currently.

I think CAP and the Auxiliary should be able to shop at AAFES etc without being restricted to just uniforms, but then again I don't live close enough to a BX or CG Exchange to take advantage or abuse the privelage... Maybe if that extended to shopping online?  I appreciate being authorized shop online for uniforms through UDC as an Auxie.

For the local CG Aux the CG privilige was extended to the BX at the State NG HQ and NTC Great Lakes - due to the fact that the nearest CG BX is like two days drive.
However, the Air Force BX at Scott AFB is still off limits.

Are there no BX facilities at Cal Harbor or Wilmette Island? I wouldnt make a drive from S. IL just to go there, but they are hardly two days drive.

[SARMedTech]

And that, IMHO, isn't quite the same as "1.  More money flows to the local military units through increased AAFES sales."

The base population certainly benefits, but the individual units don't directly see any of that money. You could have stated it better at the outset.

Yes, it could have been worded better.  It should have said something like "the local installation benefits from increased sales, through increased contributions to the local MWR programs."

Does it matter?  No.  Because sales won't be increased because the feeling is that the majority of CAP members don't deserve such "benefits."

Its just a hunch, but perhaps if we saw more respect-based "privileges" afforded to CAP members, then the members who fall in the "most" category might feel like they are viewed as part of something important and a valuable part of the Air Force establishment rather than red-headed stepchild volunteers who pay dearly for the "privilege" of doing jobs that the AD Air Force doesn't want.

Also, there have been comparisons made to USCG Auxies and the benefits given to them. Perhaps this is because the CG actually respects and "owns" the Aux as part of its various missions. As a possible "defector" to the CGAux, I gotta say I think the USAF could take a few lessons in a lot of different areas regarding auxiliary membership from the Coast Guard.