Group Commander Assignments

[coloncapfl]

I totally have been witness of the benefits of maintaining a regular physical contact with subordinate squadrons. Like the previous comments said, it not only helps struggling units but also gather ideas and maybe finding a good candidate to mentor in our position. We can't grow unless we prepare our replacement. On the other hand, I see at times a few people with power that use their position like a politician an try to muscle their ways just because they have a position. I think that we see the ranting in forums like this and sometimes the span of control is part of the issue other times the problem is the buddy system. There are times that the people put in command might not be the best choice but rather the most convenient for me (my buddy). That is a beast that unfortunately will never end, but could be minimized. Again this is my opinion.

[MSG Mac]

when I was in my previous Wing our Group Commander and his staff NEVER visited our unit. In fact the Squadron Commander notified him that he was not renewing and they didn't notice for two months when Wing was asked why we didn't have a new CC, despite sending in a F27, which was never processed at Group. 

[ol'fido]

As a current group commander, I try to get to as many squadron activities outside of regular meetings as I can and I plan on attending some of the meetings even if it is just to put in an appearance, show my interest, and pass along new information. I only took command at the end of January but it seems as if more weekends than not I am on the road somewhere. This last Tuesday I made the 1 hour and 15 minute trip up to Scott AFB for their awards ceremony. I had not planned on going to Scott this week as I have to go up there tomorrow for a group staff meeting. However, when I got the email that they were having their awards night and that the LtGen who is second in command at Transcom was going to be there, I thought I should make the trip. When I do attend a function, I try to avoid disrupting the schedule and I usually wear the golf shirt so as to keep the visit somewhat informal. I don't mind staff visits as long as they don't disrupt the meeting and don't come in like they are on an inspection team. Shake hands, keep to the side, don't be an inconvenience. Simple rules.

My group is a combination of the old IL Groups 12 and 19 that is now Group 1. The geographic area is everything from just north of St. Louis south. We are bigger than a few wings. Right now we have four units and we are getting ready to stand up a fifth. I think that groups should be limited to a maximum of seven units just for span of control purposes.

[Private Investigator]

when I was in my previous Wing our Group Commander and his staff NEVER visited our unit. In fact the Squadron Commander notified him that he was not renewing and they didn't notice for two months when Wing was asked why we didn't have a new CC, despite sending in a F27, which was never processed at Group.

I have seen that happen before. Some Group Commanders do not do anything until the Wing Commander tells them. I always kept a spreadsheet so I knew exactly when a Squadron Commander started and since we had term limits, when he will turn command over.

[Private Investigator]

As a current group commander, I try to get to as many squadron activities outside of regular meetings as I can and I plan on attending some of the meetings even if it is just to put in an appearance, show my interest, and pass along new information. ...

You are off to a good start. Having a Deputy Commander who wants to be a Group Commander in the future is very helpful. Eventually you will have two events at the same time and no way possible to attend them both.

One thing to watch out for is some Deputy Commanders just want the title and never want to be a Group Commander. They just want to influence the movement of resources such as a NIB G1000   

[RiverAux]

Earlier in the thread it was proposed that we have Groups crossing state lines and that the Group become more of a defining unit than the current Wing.

This is essentially how CG Aux does thing.  In most cases, 5 local units (flotillas) make up a Division which reports to a District (CAP region).  The Divisions often cross state boundaries, though they seem to try to avoid it when reasonable.  Now, many Districts are split up into several "areas" that have a single Aux person that supervises the Groups in their area, but they don't have a supporting staff. 

This actually works fairly well for the Aux, but primarily because the Aux really only works with the CG and aren't anywhere near as tied into state and local governments as CAP.  About the only interactions with the state are in regards to boating education instructor training and certification. 

However, CAP is different in that a significant part of our operations are dependent on the state asking for our help.  For that assistance many states provide funding to their CAP Wing.  If the Wing essentially disappears and all of a sudden there are 5 CAP groups, several of which also have units in another state, we've got a problem.  The first state isn't going to want to have to deal with 5 CAP Groups rather than 1 wing and they're not at all going to be interested in running 5 different state grants, some of which would go to Groups that might spend part of the money in another state (directly or indirectly). 

Now, the comment about Group staffs sucking up talent is incredibly valid and is a major problem in the Aux, especially since their Divisions almost always only have 5 units.  That isn't enough of a talent pool to provide people that can only be on Division staff.  Almost every Division staff officer I know also has a local position and is often reporting to themselves.  Thats a recipe for ineffective staffing.   CAP Groups tend to cover more units so this isn't quite as big a problem, but still something to keep in mind. 

[ol'fido]

As a current group commander, I try to get to as many squadron activities outside of regular meetings as I can and I plan on attending some of the meetings even if it is just to put in an appearance, show my interest, and pass along new information. ...

You are off to a good start. Having a Deputy Commander who wants to be a Group Commander in the future is very helpful. Eventually you will have two events at the same time and no way possible to attend them both.

One thing to watch out for is some Deputy Commanders just want the title and never want to be a Group Commander. They just want to influence the movement of resources such as a NIB G1000   

Actually, I am filling in right now for the appointed Group CC. He had family and professional obligations that were eating up all his time and decided to step away for a while until his non-CAP situation settles down. We basically flipped jobs as I was the deputy. Our new G1000 is assigned by wing to the Alton, IL airport and the group also has a round dial 172 at Marion that is currently in MX. We have had to cancel almost 24 hours of scheduled flying in the last 5 weeks due to maintenance issues with the 172. I let the pilots and the ops people worry about that part. They just keep me informed. With this large a geographic area, I don't know if I could handle any more units right now than 5.

[Private Investigator]

Now, the comment about Group staffs sucking up talent is incredibly valid ...

When I was Group Commander I was always looking for talent because I did not want my Group to be like other Group Staffs that was just a GOBN. A good sign of talent is the Wing wants to steal your people or somebody moves out of state for a job assignment and they contact you later because they are on Wing Staff or became a Group Commander.

[Private Investigator]

As a current group commander, I try to get to as many squadron activities outside of regular meetings as I can and I plan on attending some of the meetings even if it is just to put in an appearance, show my interest, and pass along new information. ...

You are off to a good start. Having a Deputy Commander who wants to be a Group Commander in the future is very helpful. Eventually you will have two events at the same time and no way possible to attend them both.

One thing to watch out for is some Deputy Commanders just want the title and never want to be a Group Commander. They just want to influence the movement of resources such as a NIB G1000   

Actually, I am filling in right now for the appointed Group CC. He had family and professional obligations that were eating up all his time and decided to step away for a while until his non-CAP situation settles down. We basically flipped jobs as I was the deputy. Our new G1000 is assigned by wing to the Alton, IL airport and the group also has a round dial 172 at Marion that is currently in MX. We have had to cancel almost 24 hours of scheduled flying in the last 5 weeks due to maintenance issues with the 172. I let the pilots and the ops people worry about that part. They just keep me informed. With this large a geographic area, I don't know if I could handle any more units right now than 5.

Sir that is a perfect example of Group Commander and Deputy Commander teamwork.   :clap:

[coloncapfl]

I wish that NHQ would realize the issues that we have in some locations with span of control and would work on a solution. I don't know how plausible it could be for NHQ to chance the Regulations to where some staff positions at Group could be optional and where Wing staff would handle some non critical   tasks. In other words allowing the Group to operate on a basic staff to assist the Wing Commander in the overseen of units until that Group could develop a full staff. I apologize if I sound like a fool with this remark and enlighten me if that is already in place.

[Eclipse]

I wish that NHQ would realize the issues that we have in some locations with span of control and would work on a solution. I don't know how plausible it could be for NHQ to chance the Regulations to where some staff positions at Group could be optional and where Wing staff would handle some non critical   tasks. In other words allowing the Group to operate on a basic staff to assist the Wing Commander in the overseen of units until that Group could develop a full staff. I apologize if I sound like a fool with this remark and enlighten me if that is already in place.

Other then staff which are required by having a charter, all staff positions are optional at all levels, either in fact, or by practical reality
that the open position is maintained by the Commander.

Required positions for a unit / group charter:

Commander
Safety - may be the CC
Finance - may not be the CC
AEO - May be the CC
PAO - May be the CC

Last I checked those were the positions required by their respective regulations to be filled with a name.

[JeffDG]

I don't have a reference, so it may be an OWT, but I thought Safety could not be the CC, leading to the minimum of 3 Senior Members (CC, SE, FM) in any unit.

[Eclipse]

I don't have a reference, so it may be an OWT, but I thought Safety could not be the CC, leading to the minimum of 3 Senior Members (CC, SE, FM) in any unit.

The language is "should not be", at least it was last time I checked, which means the preference is he isn't, but that it is still at the
discretion of the commander.

[coloncapfl]

Thank you Eclipse for your response. I will be moving to Florida soon. I would love to have the opportunity to be assigned someday as a Group Commander, I am currently CDC and have been in Group and Wing staff before. I know that the current Group CC there has 23 units under the group and expands from North FL (Jax) to Central Fl (south of Orlando) I really don't know the situation but no matter how great staff you got that could be a span of  control issue. By no means I am trying to tell anyone how to run their Wing. I am a believer of C&C but I think that having less units, A group CC can dedicate more time to the units and help them to become stronger. I believe that stronger units could be a stronger Group. What do you think?

[Eclipse]

23 units is a mini-wing.

Any management seminar, including ICS training, worth its salt tells you that 5-7 is the max span of control that any manager can handle with efficacy.
Not to mention the issues of calendar and that most of the work has to be done evenings and weekends.

Just doing hand-shake visits to the units would take a quarter to complete one cycle, and that's not doing any actual "work".

[coloncapfl]

I totally agree. I just don't know the whole story. This is an example why the Regs should be a little bit more detailed. In my honest opinion. 

[Private Investigator]

I know that the current Group CC there has 23 units under the group ...

Somebody created a Chinese Fire Drill. Actually it is only 21 Squadrons and a Flight which should report to a SQ not Group. Actually FLWG should create another Group. It looks like Wing wants to keep it to 7 Groups for span of control issues wiotout thinking what is is like farther down the chain.

[ZigZag911]

WIWAC there was a level called "sector", described as an extension of the wing HQ staff...sector CCs supervised 3-5 groups in a LARGE wing, with very limited staff --deputy for ops, deputy for CC, mainly to address span of control issues for wing CCs

[JeffDG]

WIWAC there was a level called "sector", described as an extension of the wing HQ staff...sector CCs supervised 3-5 groups in a LARGE wing, with very limited staff --deputy for ops, deputy for CC, mainly to address span of control issues for wing CCs

Well, the new 20-1 (Page 13, see asterisk on the Vice Commander slot) permits a Wing to have two vice commanders if approved by the Region/CC.

That would be a way to bridge Span-of-Control, each CV supervises a set of Groups...it's actually how SER is structured, with the two CVs each responsible for some of the Wings

[RiverAux]

23 units is a mini-wing.

Actually, it is sort of a large wing.