The same question over and over...

[Eclipse]

I was just curious how many times you guys can rephrase the same questions and then generate a 5 page thread arguing the same opinions, which in turn are personal interpretations of the same regs?

Hasn't anyone else noticed that this board has essentially degraded into the same 10 people arguing about the same thing over and over, both here and on every other forum they are members of?

[RiverAux]

I was just curious how many times you guys can rephrase the same questions and then generate a 5 page thread arguing the same opinions, which in turn are personal interpretations of the same regs?

An infinite number of times.

[MIKE]

Why change?  I see the points you made, but I still don't see what's wrong with what we have.

Because we need to have 50 5 page threads on senior member grade posted in January alone. 

Yawn

[JAFO78]

I was just curious how many times you guys can rephrase the same questions and then generate a 5 page thread arguing the same opinions, which in turn are personal interpretations of the same regs?

Hasn't anyone else noticed that this board has essentially degraded into the same 10 people arguing about the same thing over and over, both here and on every other forum they are members of?

As many times as we can, what else do we have to do.

Besides its winter and I hate being outside in winter.

[flyguy06]

Exactly what are you gys talking about? What question is being discussed over and over?

[Eclipse]

Why change?  I see the points you made, but I still don't see what's wrong with what we have.

Because we need to have 50 5 page threads on senior member grade posted in January alone. 

Yawn

Exactly, Mike - it was your answer that finally prompted me to ask.  I almost brought it over here myself.

[Chappie]

I was just curious how many times you guys can rephrase the same questions and then generate a 5 page thread arguing the same opinions, which in turn are personal interpretations of the same regs?

An infinite number of times.

It's just our way in CAP of determining which came first...the chicken or the egg.

[mikeylikey]

 

[Guardrail]

[lordmonar]

Why change?  I see the points you made, but I still don't see what's wrong with what we have.

Because we need to have 50 5 page threads on senior member grade posted in January alone. 

Yawn

Exactly, Mike - it was your answer that finally prompted me to ask.  I almost brought it over here myself.

Then go away....no one is making you read and post on these forums.

[ZigZag911]

The threads that don't interest me or concern me, i don't read.

I imagined everyone else did the same thing.

[lordmonar]

I don't understand your complaint then.

Why do they all come back to the same arguments?  Because they are all related to the same problem.

That there is a perceived problem with CAP's system that ranks don't mean the same exact thing as they do in the USAF.

And I say perceived..because I don't have a problem that an AD USAF officer does not respect me.  I don't need his respect, it does not prevent me from doing my job.

[ZigZag911]

That there is a perceived problem with CAP's system that ranks don't mean the same exact thing as they do in the USAF.

And I say perceived..because I don't have a problem that an AD USAF officer does not respect me.  I don't need his respect, it does not prevent me from doing my job.

Speaking only for myself, my concerns are giving some meaning to the CAP core values, and improving our training, especially in PD area.

i don't look for USAF personnel to view us as their military peers....I would like them to respect us for who we are, what we do, and how that helps USAF and our country, howver limited that may be.

[lordmonar]

That there is a perceived problem with CAP's system that ranks don't mean the same exact thing as they do in the USAF.

And I say perceived..because I don't have a problem that an AD USAF officer does not respect me.  I don't need his respect, it does not prevent me from doing my job.

Speaking only for myself, my concerns are giving some meaning to the CAP core values, and improving our training, especially in PD area.

i don't look for USAF personnel to view us as their military peers....I would like them to respect us for who we are, what we do, and how that helps USAF and our country, howver limited that may be.

ZigZag...I was not responding to you but to another post just after yours that got disappeared.

[DNall]

I don't understand your complaint then.

Why do they all come back to the same arguments?  Because they are all related to the same problem.

That there is a perceived problem with CAP's system that ranks don't mean the same exact thing as they do in the USAF.

And I say perceived..because I don't have a problem that an AD USAF officer does not respect me.  I don't need his respect, it does not prevent me from doing my job.

And I do have a problem with his lack of respect. I don't need to be equal to him, I don't have a problem with being a second class citizen in this case, it's the degree of 2nd class we're discussing, and in terms of what's needed to get the job done. His lack of respect though extends to not believing CAP as an organization is or can be capable of anything remotely important, that our officers with the rare exception are good-hearted but simple-minded volunteers that don't get it & can't help. Now when I see the org going obsolete & not seeking evolution - based on NIMS mostly & ELT tech a little plus some issues with cadet pgms & AE - and I see a drastic & critical set of mission needs that the govt doesn't have the right resources to do but CAP does, but that requires investment in CAP to put them in those roles, which require words like respect & trust before you can even sit down at the table....

See I think we HAVE to talk about that. I think it's your duty as a CAP officer to talk about it & do everything in your power to get it fixed. I think thru talk we get solutions, or at least ideas, and we create a buzz level that gets noticed, then even if nothing comes of it we're better officers for having engaged in the conversation & been shaped by the other participants.

Listen I don't know why there's 50 topics or whatever. I've started maybe 3 or so ever & one was on any of the above subjects. I guess if people want to keep their train of thought organized & focus on an aspect w/o detracting from the whole, then that's appropriate. Hell if you got 50 five-page topics on a subject area, doesn't that lead you to believe a decent number of people care a lot about it & that it may even deserve its own separate section, supply & demand after all. I'm not recommending that, just saying for perspective.

[MIKE]

The threads that don't interest me or concern me, i don't read.

I imagined everyone else did the same thing.

I wouldn't feel that I was fulfilling my responsibilities here if I didn't at least look at every post.  That's why I'm on here all the time... So I can keep up with all the new posts.

[Eclipse]

Hell if you got 50 five-page topics on a subject area, doesn't that lead you to believe a decent number of people care a lot about it & that it may even deserve its own separate section, supply & demand after all. I'm not recommending that, just saying for perspective.

No, it means the same 10 people will argue about politics because they have nothing better to do than complain.

CAPTALK in a nutshell:

Q: I'm new and I can't find where to place my nametape.

A1: It goes above your right BDU pocket. Here's a link to 39-1.

A2: I don't think its right that we don't have subdued tapes.

A3: Yeah, well I think you should spend a year in the sandbox and donate a kidney before you can wear camo at all.

A4: I know, let's make it so that anyone who is not 100% Rambo-fit can't join!

A5: Better still, let's add a whole bunch of double-secret special requirments to circumvent the program and do what >I< think is right, you follow MY special rules, or you're out, but if I don't agree with yours, you're out.

A6: I'm so tired of not getting any respect.

A7: Hey!  Let's reinvent CAP!  "I have it on good authority that no one in actual power has ever heard of me and I'm going to push this up the chan! My dad says we can use his barn!

A8: BOONIES! GORETEX!  METAL GRADE!

Rinse, repeat.

Stupid. 

(Yes, I've gotten dragged there, too.  Its still stupid)

[fyrfitrmedic]

A9: [fill in subject here] is evil/obsolete/defective/a conspiracy/must be removed/etc.

[sandman]

dude(s), don't be hatin', you takin' all da fun outta it....

[ZigZag911]

ZigZag...I was not responding to you but to another post just after yours that got disappeared.

I realized you were not responding to me, but I still wanted to comment on what my perception of the problems facing CAP.

[ZigZag911]

The threads that don't interest me or concern me, i don't read.

I imagined everyone else did the same thing.

I wouldn't feel that I was fulfilling my responsibilities here if I didn't at least look at every post.  That's why I'm on here all the time... So I can keep up with all the new posts.

Ah, the burdens of command!

All I can say is I regret that you find it dull & repetitive....many of us feel it is important to discuss these matters to try to have some influence on CAP's future.

And I feel that it is MY duty as a member for over 35 years, a former group commander, former Earhart cadet, current IC, to speak up and speak out about the things I see going wrong.

[Eclipse]

You might as well just open your front door and yell at the trees.

[ZigZag911]

You might as well just open your front door and yell at the trees.

Perhaps it is "tilting at windmills"....but, in the immortal (and oft quoted) words of the British political philosopher Edmund Burke, "The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is that good men should do nothing!"

So I take a two-prong approach:

1) serve locally, do my job, share my experience
2) speak my mind when and where I can

[Eclipse]

A10: Run over to Cadetstuff, Military.com, NOTF, etc., and ask the exact same question AGAIN, so the same 50 people who frequent these same boards can answer the same question the same way.

[Eclipse]

1) serve locally, do my job, share my experience
2) speak my mind when and where I can

Hey, more power to 'ya, man.  But some people view the First Amendment the same way they view a Chinese Buffet:

"All you can eat" is not a challenge.

[ZigZag911]

1) serve locally, do my job, share my experience
2) speak my mind when and where I can

Hey, more power to 'ya, man.  But some people view the First Amendment the same way they view a Chinese Buffet:

"All you can eat" is not a challenge.

Granting your point, unlike Capt Johnson, I don't note you identified as a moderator....so I can only assume you are either actually interested in the discussions (which you deny), or are somehow irresistibly drawn to reading them in spite of your indifference (like a moth to a flame? a rubber-necking driver
to a traffic accident? an ES 'junkie' to a SAREX?)

[Eclipse]

...like someone who appreciated this board before all the chaff weighed in.

It was bad enough before, but now...

This used to be a nice place where people could get some gossip, fight over insignia placement, and occasionally actually learn something.

Now, its just a bunch of trolls and non-members who apparently haven't paid their cable bills and have nothing better to do than lob gas on a fire.

To my detriment, I got involved in these boards last year when I was between jobs, they LITERALLY were all I had to do all day, so I got into a habit.

One I probably need to kick.  And I fully realize no one will miss me, blah, blah.

My single biggest failing is believing I am going to "fix" anybody's opinion here, when we all know arguing opinion is fruitless.  Like I'm going to wade into the waters and spread my wisdom to the masses.
When the reality is I have no idea what I am talking about either. 

I admit to the "moth to the flame weakness". When I see a thread that starts with "What's wrong with…?", or "The answer…?"  I just can't help myself from checking the latest half-baked idea to "fix" CAP.  Its especially entertaining to hear from non-members, or former members.  Neither of which anyone cares about.

Oh, well, if I want some real intellectual discussion, there's always MYSPACE.

Now where can I find some sweet glitter letters?

HOLLA BACK AT CHA DOODES LOL ROLFLMAO!!!!! SA-WEEETT! 

DON'T BE A HAYTAR!

[shorning]

Bob, I don't see eye-to-eye with you all the time, but I agree with you here.  In fact, I just made that comment to someone the other day.

Oh, well, if I want some real intellectual discussion, there's always MYSPACE.

Dang, that's good stuff right there!

[RiverAux]

Anybody who takes an internet discussion board too seriously is nuts. 

Changing people's minds?  Hardly ever happens in "real" life either.  You aren't going to talk a Republican into becoming a Democrat. 

The thing is that there is so little room for member involvement in any decisions that matter in CAP that boards such as this are the only real outlet that anyone has for putting ideas on the table.  If somebody doesn't like an idea, you probably aren't going to change their mind on it here but it just having people give some consideration to the idea is a good outlet for some stress. 

And, there is the remote chance that somebody with some actual authority in CAP might get wind of an idea expressed here and run with it.  Its very unlikely, but an idea expressed here has a better chance of being seen by somebody at national than does something brought up at your local squdron meeting.

[sandman]

And, there is the remote chance that somebody with some actual authority in CAP might get wind of an idea expressed here and run with it.  Its very unlikely, but an idea expressed here has a better chance of being seen by somebody at national than does something brought up at your local squadron meeting.

Well, we are the largest squadron in CAP, albeit a virtual squadron. Maybe NHQ will grant a charter for us? Anyone interested in running for (virtual) squadron commander?

[DNall]

You know how many people in much more powerful position than myself have approached me at events & said how much the agree with the general position I take on most issues but that they don't like to post much? Well it's a lot. I thought when I started that even using my real name that it's a big world & I'd never meet anyone of you guys. That's turned out to be far from the case. And, a lot of people in positions that matter have been reading this stuff with interest. Is it going to up & change to what I want it to be, no not really, that'd be a 20 year plan. BUT, over time it might just move down that road a good bit. Personally, I think there are outside challenges coming in the next 2-3 years. I won't be in a position to help then, but someone's going to have to be johnny on the spot with a hell of a plan. That starts now.

Plus if you don't like it, skim & skip. Ain't nobody makin you read nothin - get a triple negative in there, how's that. 

[fyrfitrmedic]

 There are far more lurkers from hither and yon than perhaps we realize.

There are also a lot of folks who are aware of this board and other venues but who choose to steer far clear because of their perceptions [some of which aren't necessarily inaccurate].

If we could get past some of the agendism, the conspiracy theories, and some of the other dross that keeps showing up we'd probably be far more constructive as an online community.

[sandman]

There are far more lurkers from hither and yon than perhaps we realize.

There are also a lot of folks who are aware of this board and other venues but who choose to steer far clear because of their perceptions [some of which aren't necessarily inaccurate].

If we could get past some of the agendism, the conspiracy theories, and some of the other dross that keeps showing up we'd probably be far more constructive as an online community.

It takes a lot of raw material (ore) and a lot of heat to refine a small amount of gold. Don't worry about the dross. A lot of this board is "tongue 'n cheek" in the diatribes presented. The nuggets of gold among the dross makes this board fun to participate in.

[lordmonar]

It takes a lot of raw material (ore) and a lot of heat to refine a small amount of gold. Don't worry about the dross. A lot of this board is "tongue 'n cheek" in the diatribes presented. The nuggets of gold among the dross makes this board fun to participate in.

You know...I used to work for a short time, before I joined the USAF, as a handyman for an exporitoy mining operation in Akansas.  One of my jobs was turning pick up truck loads of fist sized rocks into thumb sized pebles to be fed into the crusher to make it into about 3 55-gallon drums of dust.

Once the processed it......the ton and a half of rocks would yeald a speck of gold measured in the miligrams.

I like this board.  It allows you to vent...express opinions both serious and tonge in cheek.  It allows you to see what everyone else is doing and thinking.

I just think it is funny that someone comes on the board and bothers to post...a you are all just saying the same thing and wasteing my time...sort of post.

If the posts are wasting your time...walk away...that's what I did with CAPBLOG and that is what happened to CAP Portal.

[ZigZag911]

This used to be a nice place where people could get some gossip, fight over insignia placement, and occasionally actually learn something.

See, that's the great thing about free expression.

I happen to think that the threads debating insignia placement, what goes on a patch, or should CAP have a MAJCOM patch, are kind of pedestrian.

But you and some other folks enjoy them....so what's wrong with that?

This morning my dad & I discussed what teams we thought would get to the Super Bowl....in some ways, these threads are like that....mostly speculative discussions, sharing ideas and opinions.

Hopefully a little good can come out of this eventually.

[Pylon]

There are far more lurkers from hither and yon than perhaps we realize.

There are also a lot of folks who are aware of this board and other venues but who choose to steer far clear because of their perceptions [some of which aren't necessarily inaccurate].

If we could get past some of the agendism, the conspiracy theories, and some of the other dross that keeps showing up we'd probably be far more constructive as an online community.

You're not the only one who feels that way.   

[JAFO78]

Ok what kind of coffee is everyone drinking in the morning?

Some of us like me have been in CAP before. I like coming here it see what is going on, and to see options of others. I respect everyone here. It does not matter if you are a new cadet or a seasoned member. We all came to this web site because we all have a part in CAP.

This is a great place to talk about our squadron's and other squadron's. I can ask someone how does your squadron do this or how do you do that. I have meet some wonderful people here. Shorning transfered to my old squadron around the time I left. I never met him but we talk. Then there is Major Kack. We talk here, we email each other. I have never met him. But I will soon as I am moving to the Orlando area.

To me it does not matter who you are or what you do, or what you say. We all have our own ideas. 

All I can say is thank god in live in these UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. You can say what, you want, when you want to anyone. If you don't like whats being said then don't reply.

You could live in another country were the Govt. controls everything. I know some things have changed since 9/11, but then things changed after the Civil War, WW 1, WW 2 and so on and so on.

Life is hard. Babies are born, people die, but life goes on, until some nut pushes the button that causes the Nuke Bomb to go off and wipe everyone out.

You guys get worked up over dumb stuff. Lighten up, or your are going to have a heart attack, or a stroke. 

Yes CAP Talk has become the largest squadron in CAP, and maybe even the Air Force. But we need to respect each other.

I am sure there are people here who don't want to give there real name for fear of revenge. Could MG TP be here, yes, could the Sec AF be here, yes, hell the President could be here, so
could be some KGB or others. LOL. You get the drift.

OK guys I am stepping off my soap box, but remember I am armed, and I don't know what I'm doing. LOL

Take care everyone and have a good week.   

[sandman]

I am sure there are people here who don't want to give there real name for fear of revenge. Could MG TP be here, yes, could the Sec AF be here, yes, hell the President could be here, so
could be some KGB or others. LOL. You get the drift.

Some of us are active duty in "sensitive" areas or have previously worked in sensitive areas and don't need a name posted in cyberspace. I don't need Mr. Qaida (Al to his friends) having a headstart in googling my location, etc, etc.

[Eclipse]

Some of us like me have been in CAP before. I like coming here it see what is going on, and to see options of others. I respect everyone here. It does not matter if you are a new cadet or a seasoned member. We all came to this web site because we all have a part in CAP.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.  Another reason I love these forums is all the nonsesne about freedom of speech, whatever.

Also, the "silent majority" arguments are BS, too.  I love when people try and trot out all the "background action" spurred by "people in high places".

And if your life is that "double secret", you probably have better things to do than this nonsense.

I'm sorry. Non-members, ex or otherwise have no place here.  I personally don't care what you believe should be done about "X issue" if you're not a member, and I can't understand why you would care about it either.

Yes its an open forum, no I'm not a moderator.  Blah, blah.

[sandman]

And if your life is that "double secret", you probably have better things to do than this nonsense.

Um...not really.

This is how I'm spending your tax dollars today

[DNall]

Well I'm a member, joined in 94. Got slammed the other day by PM from two region staff members for an off-hand comment I made. Was approached by a region staff member at an event with positive things to say. Heard from numerous people from all over, & almost always at CAP events have someone say hello & tell me how they feel about what I post here, mostly all quite positive.

Anyway, cheer the hell up. You want to act all huffy about it that's your deal. However many people it is that care about this subject area, at least they're being positive. I don't think CAP can take much more cynicism these days.

[fyrfitrmedic]

You might as well just open your front door and yell at the trees.

If it's so bloody bad, why read or post on CAP-related forums at all?

If it is that bloody bad, perhaps one should take a step back and reassess both their reasons for being a CAP member and whether or not one should remain a member... masochism doesn't count as a valid reason.

[DNall]

or at least a break from reading things you obviously don't want to see.

[O-Rex]

It's very simple:


1. I want to wear the USAF uniforms with all the trimmings and no restrictions.

-See your local recruiter


2. I want to be respected as an officer by USAF personnel.

-See your local recruiter and bring your college diploma with you.


3. I want (1) and (2) above, but I'm over X years old.

-Hope for reincarnation and make better choices next go-around.


4. I want (1) and (2) above, with no real effort or obligation on my part.
-Get a grip on reality.


5. In my spare time, and often at my own expense, I want to make a positive contribution to our youth, community and nation within the scope of realistic and prudent organizational guidelines.

-Renew your CAP membership


I tend to stay away from "pie in the sky" threads and Walter-Mitty-like "flights of fancy.  I don't have entitlement issues, nor do I entertain the notion of CAP becoming affiliated with SDF's, the National Guard Bureau, or Starfleet. 

I once read someone's fantasy of CAP members being activated as last-line-of defense after all American Servicemembers get zapped in a Nuclear War, a-la "Independence Day" (No kidding, I once read this crazy post on the now-defunct Auxiliarypower.org.  There's some real wacky stuff out there!) 

We are who and what we are: volunteers with a proud and rich history-why do some members struggle with that?   Someone in this thread mentioned accepting themselves as "second-class citizens" to military members-that's crap!   Remember, others see you as you see yourself.  If you maintain a sense of quiet dignity, politeness and decorum, you will be treated with respect from most everyone, military or otherwise.

[Chappie]

O-Rex ....wish I would/could have written that.  Couldn't have said it better.

[DNall]

It's very simple:


1. I want to wear the USAF uniforms with all the trimmings and no restrictions.

-See your local recruiter


2. I want to be respected as an officer by USAF personnel.

-See your local recruiter and bring your college diploma with you.


3. I want (1) and (2) above, but I'm over X years old.

-Hope for reincarnation and make better choices next go-around.


4. I want (1) and (2) above, with no real effort or obligation on my part.
-Get a grip on reality.


5. In my spare time, and often at my own expense, I want to make a positive contribution to our youth, community and nation within the scope of realistic and prudent organizational guidelines.

-Renew your CAP membership


I tend to stay away from "pie in the sky" threads and Walter-Mitty-like "flights of fancy.  I don't have entitlement issues, nor do I entertain the notion of CAP becoming affiliated with SDF's, the National Guard Bureau, or Starfleet. 

I once read someone's fantasy of CAP members being activated as last-line-of defense after all American Servicemembers get zapped in a Nuclear War, a-la "Independence Day" (No kidding, I once read this crazy post on the now-defunct Auxiliarypower.org.  There's some real wacky stuff out there!) 

We are who and what we are: volunteers with a proud and rich history-why do some members struggle with that?   Someone in this thread mentioned accepting themselves as "second-class citizens" to military members-that's crap!   Remember, others see you as you see yourself.  If you maintain a sense of quiet dignity, politeness and decorum, you will be treated with respect from most everyone, military or otherwise.

You know of course that terribly misconstrues the discussion going on. Not one person anywhere has said they want to have the uniform look just like the AF, never has anyone said we should be respected as full equals. Slow down before you make assumptions that this is a bunch of simple minded posers & look at what's being said & why.

You know there was a time in America when we had segregation. When a race of people were considered second class citizens & pre-judged to be stupid, classless, & incapable of complex tasks or responsibility. When these people were insulted & defamed thru no fault of their own. When even those that stayed in line with what society demanded of them were judged by the actions of others seen as trouble-makers. Think about each and every one of those statements, because that's exactly to the letter the relationship between AF & CAP.

And you know what? I'm fine with being a second class citizen to the AF. What I'm not fine with is when that paradigm blocks CAP from picking up missions critical to safety of the US & her citizens, missions that the govt desperately wants done but only CAP is equipped for, yet we can't do those cause our people aren't good enough. I have a problem with it when that paradigm takes away critical support for programs 0 when the Boy Scouts can get on base, but I have to go to a WWII era National Guard facility with asbestos & lead paint no AC in mid-summer central-Texas; when I can't beg barrow or steal uniform items that are readily handed out to local LE, when my people have to lay out thousands per year (blocking participation by many) to cover critical items that should be there, when I have to debase my people to go to the community & beg for funding even though we're a govt sponsored org.

I also have a problem when CAP stands up & says it is a a SaR asset or HLS, CN, whatever, yet it doesn't meet any of the federal standards mandated for those claims, and gets state/local missions by making people think we do. Yet they're scared of adopting those standards because it is going to disqualify many of our members. I have a problem when CAP mission staff get there by just doing some technical training, but are not selected & progressed thru a leadership development & educational process to give them the skills to execute that technical knowledge - it may work to a degree internally, but will not when working with other agencies, yet the program we're going into thrusts us into that joint working environment that we're not prepared or capable for. I have a problem when CAP as a whole from local all the way to national experiences a major leadership gap & devolves to petty personal politics & cant get anything serious done because people have been given the training & development or the right culture or environments created around them to do it. I have a problem when pride & politics overtake responsibility & accountability when we bite the hand that feeds us & refuse to honor & obey our parent.

You see any one of those issues that a recruiter can help me with? I mean being that I'm in the Army with a flight slot & seven year contract it might be a little tough for him to do much for me, but that aside, I'm not trying to become the AF. I'm trying to save CAP from itself & grow us into position to be of greater service to our community, state, & nation. I'm trying to do that a t a time when we're being backed up against the wall with the decline of all our traditional missions at the same time standards for other things have been massively raised, & we've fallen behind. I'm out here saying, "wake up people, we face a challenge we need to address before it becomes a fight for our lives, so lets get together & tackle it as a team." If anyone has a problem with that, I have to seriously question their reasons for being in CAP, and what level of training they've had to accept & deal with constant change on the road to excellence.

I don't appreciate being made out a clown or insulted for my efforts, from yall or the AF, and I'm going to work against that quite hard. The AF I understand. They just need to be educated about CAP. They have some legitimate points about our quality control, disciple, & accountability, and we need to step up on those first & foremost, but otherwise it's just getting the word out. Maybe that's the case with CAP members too. Maybe it is in fact that people don't see what's wrong & how far we are from where we should be. Maybe they just need to be educated about the issues & the hard route it takes to solve them - hence a lot of dedicated people discussing the issue, and a lot of stubborn & complacent ones complaining about it. Even if you don't agree with any of that, I hope you respect the position. If you can't bring yourself to do that, then you need to check your core values again.

[ColonelJack]

O-Rex:  Well said, sir.  Well said!

DNall:  I understand and respect where you're coming from, and I think you stated your position quite clearly.  I don't agree with all of it, but that which I do agree with I'll support.

Eclipse:  If you really believe that ex-members have no place here, you should ask the administrators to restrict membership to those who provide an active CAP ID.  That's like saying that you don't think former or retired AF members should say nothing about what their service is doing.  FYI, I've been off AD for a LONG time, but still have "U.S. Air Force" across my car's back window and I still support my service, long though I've been gone.

I don't like the idea of "elitism," and that's what any kind of restriction from discussion would produce.  The business world provides a model for us in this regard -- when the only people asked to solve a problem are the people who are part of the problem, the problem doesn't get solved.  Sometimes a fresh viewpoint from outside is what's needed.

And, of course, you're right ... you're not a moderator.  But if you really, really want a board where ex-CAP or non-CAP can't contribute, perhaps you should start one.

When I rejoin this year, I'll be there, too.

Jack

[Tony91]

Maybe we should all follow the rule if you wouldn't say it in front of your wing commander don't say it at all. If a non-cap person came on here because they were interested in joining and saw some of these posts I think it might change their mind very quickly. Also for the Anti-Capers out there this kinda stuff just fuels their furnaces.

[DNall]

Thanks Jack, that's all I ask for.

I don't know what the issue is with non-members. Maybe I', mistaken, but I don't believe any of the leaders in these discussions fall into that category.

Things I say here DO get passed to my Wg CC & are commendted on by members of my region staff. Hell, if I were a Wg CC I'd be on here talking under a pseudonom, trying to keep the pulse of the people & see jow ideas go over, I'm pretty sure that's not going on, but it's what I'd do. Potential members aren't going to find their way in here so easily, former members maybe. Most people don't understand what's going on in CAP till 3-5 years in plus involvement above the Sq, and even then you don't see the top level w/o knowing someone in that circle. I'm not worried about scaring people off. We nee to have these strategic discussions, and that's more important then a handful of recruits. I prefer anyway that they come in with their eyes open & take ownership of the bad stuff right along with the good. Still though, by talking about what CAP's known deficiencies are & what we could be if we fix them, that's not fueling the anti-CAP forces. They're after scandel & silliness. That stuff is petty, just like the people spouting it.

[O-Rex]

Gee, I thought my little sarcastic tirade featured the usual and pointless drivel that becomes the freak-flag that too many members wave: I want blue epaulets, green nametapes, boonie hats, CAC cards, and unlimited access to military installations,  why don't airmen salute me? why can't we change our name to USAF............aux? etc. etc., ad nauseum.

In the grand scheme of things, it's all trivial.

A lot of folks are running around saying that the sky is falling; that CAP will completely alienate its blue-suited benefactors, loose relevance as technology changes, that someday we'll have a giant tent sale for all our planes and we'll end up all dressed up on our distinctive corporate uniforms with nowhere to go. 

Not gonna happen.

As for our relationship with USAF: maybe it is strained, maybe not: who knows?  Even if its true, spouses argue, kids talk back to their parents, and siblings might occasionally pop each other one, but at the end of the day, family is family.  Sometimes these little "rubs" are necessary to redefine boundaries and to help the relationship to develop and grow.

I will admit that things aren't perfect, but when were they?  If you look back on our history or consult some 40-50 year members, they'll tell you stories of darker days (berry-boards, anyone?) yet here we still are.   All this too shall come to pass: Dnall, I believe it, and so do you, as evidenced by the fact that you and I are still card-carrying PAYING members.

Our alleged 'second-class' status (in the eyes of some) is more often than not the result of self-inflicted wounds.  We had more privileges and less restrictions years ago:  we lost them when folks abused them, or felt they were entitlements, and demanded them.   My first run-in with a CAP Senior Member was as a young soldier 25 years ago at Ft. Rucker, when some cadet squadrons were invited for a tour of the post and obligatory lunch at the dining facility, when a CAP 2nd Lt. not much older than I tried to lock my heels for not saluting.  I laughed at her and moved on (poetic justice: here I am today.)  My years in the military are now but a shadow-box and some certs on a wall, and a faint figure in my life's rear-view mirror, but I still remember the view from the other side of the fence, and comport myself accordingly. 

Regarding our operational capability, what Federally mandated standards?   Ground? Air?   Unfortunately, the dirtbags stand out and are  remembered, but some of our people are more competent that we give them credit for.  Folks out there will likely flame me for this, but as far as SAR is concerned I'll take bets on a 17 year old Cadet who's an experienced GTL over your fresh-out-of basic-training soldier or airman who's the same age.  Admittedly, we have had some bumps in the road, but somehow we still get invited to the parties, and for the most part, manage not to pee in the potted palms.  Competence and professionalism in the ranks??  I've seen good ones and bad ones-comes with the territory if you are part of a volunteer organization-it's up to you, me and all the members reading this to "police" the organization.  We may never achieve the absolute "platonic ideal" of what a SAR/HLS/DR/Psychic Ninja organization could/should be, but I'd like to think that we're better today than we were yesterday. 

Decline in missions? We have a history of being innovative and flexible, otherwise we'd still be in ready-rooms, impatiently waiting to bomb German subs.  Ever wonder what CAP did before there were ELT's???  Right now, there are folks in "echelons above" trying to carve out a role for us in the next decade and beyond-more power to them.  That's why we're buying Airvans, SDIS kits, and all other manner of "sneaky-peeky-tekkie" gear.  What will we do when 121.5 ELT's go away?  Dunno, but I bet it will be interesting, and look forward to finding out.

Regardless of the bells, the whistles, the costumes and the politics, there is the immovable and absolute truth that members, any member, regardless of position will run into trouble when they loose their sense of perspective and/or are unable to work within an organizational framework (the two usually go hand-in-hand.)  Discounting CPPT violations and outright fraud, it's the most common behavioral pattern that leads our folks to self-destruct.

When all is said and done, we are volunteers.  By that very nature, the biggest reward is the opportunity to do it all again tomorrow, and maybe even the day after that.  All else is just window dressing.

...that's what my original post was all about.

[ZigZag911]

Gee, I thought my little sarcastic tirade featured the usual and pointless drivel that becomes the freak-flag that too many members wave: I want blue epaulets, green nametapes, boonie hats, CAC cards, and unlimited access to military installations,  why don't airmen salute me? why can't we change our name to USAF............aux? etc. etc., ad nauseum.

In the grand scheme of things, it's all trivial.

A lot of folks are running around saying that the sky is falling; that CAP will completely alienate its blue-suited benefactors, loose relevance as technology changes, that someday we'll have a giant tent sale for all our planes and we'll end up all dressed up on our distinctive corporate uniforms with nowhere to go. 

Not gonna happen.

As for our relationship with USAF: maybe it is strained, maybe not: who knows?  Even if its true, spouses argue, kids talk back to their parents, and siblings might occasionally pop each other one, but at the end of the day, family is family.  Sometimes these little "rubs" are necessary to redefine boundaries and to help the relationship to develop and grow.

I will admit that things aren't perfect, but when were they?  If you look back on our history or consult some 40-50 year members, they'll tell you stories of darker days (berry-boards, anyone?) yet here we still are.   All this too shall come to pass: Dnall, I believe it, and so do you, as evidenced by the fact that you and I are still card-carrying PAYING members.

Our alleged 'second-class' status (in the eyes of some) is more often than not the result of self-inflicted wounds.  We had more privileges and less restrictions years ago:  we lost them when folks abused them, or felt they were entitlements, and demanded them.   My first run-in with a CAP Senior Member was as a young soldier 25 years ago at Ft. Rucker, when some cadet squadrons were invited for a tour of the post and obligatory lunch at the dining facility, when a CAP 2nd Lt. not much older than I tried to lock my heels for not saluting.  I laughed at her and moved on (poetic justice: here I am today.)  My years in the military are now but a shadow-box and some certs on a wall, and a faint figure in my life's rear-view mirror, but I still remember the view from the other side of the fence, and comport myself accordingly. 

Regarding our operational capability, what Federally mandated standards?   Ground? Air?   Unfortunately, the dirtbags stand out and are  remembered, but some of our people are more competent that we give them credit for.  Folks out there will likely flame me for this, but as far as SAR is concerned I'll take bets on a 17 year old Cadet who's an experienced GTL over your fresh-out-of basic-training soldier or airman who's the same age.  Admittedly, we have had some bumps in the road, but somehow we still get invited to the parties, and for the most part, manage not to pee in the potted palms.  Competence and professionalism in the ranks??  I've seen good ones and bad ones-comes with the territory if you are part of a volunteer organization-it's up to you, me and all the members reading this to "police" the organization.  We may never achieve the absolute "platonic ideal" of what a SAR/HLS/DR/Psychic Ninja organization could/should be, but I'd like to think that we're better today than we were yesterday. 

Decline in missions? We have a history of being innovative and flexible, otherwise we'd still be in ready-rooms, impatiently waiting to bomb German subs.  Ever wonder what CAP did before there were ELT's???  Right now, there are folks in "echelons above" trying to carve out a role for us in the next decade and beyond-more power to them.  That's why we're buying Airvans, SDIS kits, and all other manner of "sneaky-peeky-tekkie" gear.  What will we do when 121.5 ELT's go away?  Dunno, but I bet it will be interesting, and look forward to finding out.

Regardless of the bells, the whistles, the costumes and the politics, there is the immovable and absolute truth that members, any member, regardless of position will run into trouble when they loose their sense of perspective and/or are unable to work within an organizational framework (the two usually go hand-in-hand.)  Discounting CPPT violations and outright fraud, it's the most common behavioral pattern that leads our folks to self-destruct.

When all is said and done, we are volunteers.  By that very nature, the biggest reward is the opportunity to do it all again tomorrow, and maybe even the day after that.  All else is just window dressing.

...that's what my original post was all about.

You make a lot of sense (mainly because to a great degree we agree!)

[sandman]

Regardless of the bells, the whistles, the costumes and the politics, there is the immovable and absolute truth that members, any member, regardless of position will run into trouble when they loose their sense of perspective and/or are unable to work within an organizational framework (the two usually go hand-in-hand.)  Discounting CPPT violations and outright fraud, it's the most common behavioral pattern that leads our folks to self-destruct.

When all is said and done, we are volunteers.  By that very nature, the biggest reward is the opportunity to do it all again tomorrow, and maybe even the day after that.  All else is just window dressing.

...that's what my original post was all about.

Don't discount the window dressing.

Many have pride in wearing a uniform of our beloved country, even if it requires maroon epaulets; and that does generate heated debate on even the most trivial things. The ability to serve in uniform is a major attraction to many (c'mon, you know who you are ). Let us have our fun in arguing about the little things; after all, isn't that part of the reason for this board?

Your altruistic painting of how it should be may be true for some; there are the sweet ladies (and gentlemen) in the grey slacks and polo shirts who couldn't care if it were CAP or the Boyscouts (and may not know the difference) as long as they could volunteer to help the wayward youth of this nation.

Again, don't discount the "window dressing", it is important to many, especially to us ol' vets who care if the ribbon is too high or too low (attention to detail is a dicipline lacking in many youth...agree?)

[DogCollar]

Regardless of the bells, the whistles, the costumes and the politics, there is the immovable and absolute truth that members, any member, regardless of position will run into trouble when they loose their sense of perspective and/or are unable to work within an organizational framework (the two usually go hand-in-hand.)  Discounting CPPT violations and outright fraud, it's the most common behavioral pattern that leads our folks to self-destruct.

When all is said and done, we are volunteers.  By that very nature, the biggest reward is the opportunity to do it all again tomorrow, and maybe even the day after that.  All else is just window dressing.

...that's what my original post was all about.

Don't discount the window dressing.

Many have pride in wearing a uniform of our beloved country, even if it requires maroon epaulets; and that does generate heated debate on even the most trivial things. The ability to serve in uniform is a major attraction to many (c'mon, you know who you are ). Let us have our fun in arguing about the little things; after all, isn't that part of the reason for this board?

Your altruistic painting of how it should be may be true for some; there are the sweet ladies (and gentlemen) in the grey slacks and polo shirts who couldn't care if it were CAP or the Boyscouts (and may not know the difference) as long as they could volunteer to help the wayward youth of this nation.

Again, don't discount the "window dressing", it is important to many, especially to us ol' vets who care if the ribbon is too high or too low (attention to detail is a dicipline lacking in many youth...agree?)

In theological terms what you're referring to as "window dressing" is adiaphora, which is a Greek word that means "Important, but not essential."  The ancient Church used it to refer to those things (customs and traditions) that have meaning, but are not essential for salvation.

Frankly, wearing the uniform of my country is nice...it's the custom and tradition of CAP, but, I would still believe and continue to volunteer if "they" took away my uniform, my captains bars, etc...

Don't get me wrong...the uniform, the customs and traditions are VERY important, but they aren't essential to my volunteering with organization.

[Monty]

In theological terms what you're referring to as "window dressing" is adiaphora, which is a Greek word that means "Important, but not essential."  The ancient Church used it to refer to those things (customs and traditions) that have meaning, but are not essential for salvation.

Frankly, wearing the uniform of my country is nice...it's the custom and tradition of CAP, but, I would still believe and continue to volunteer if "they" took away my uniform, my captains bars, etc...

Don't get me wrong...the uniform, the customs and traditions are VERY important, but they aren't essential to my volunteering with organization.

Concur!  Find my post history to find that blingety-bling-bling photo of me and yet, I wear bare white 'n grays and the polo get-up far more.  (There are even times when I do some CAP stuff with no uniform at all, especially when I do group commander's calls and the big boss says not to wear CAP threads unless I really feel the personal need to do so......)

I'd like to think the difference I make is every bit as powerful in whatever I wear (or don't, as it applies to uniforms!)

[DNall]

Gee, I thought my little sarcastic tirade featured the usual and pointless drivel that becomes the freak-flag that too many members wave: I want blue epaulets, green nametapes, boonie hats, CAC cards, and unlimited access to military installations,  why don't airmen salute me? why can't we change our name to USAF............aux? etc. etc., ad nauseum.

I understand that, but there's a legit argument in context that I'm making, and the most effective & common counter is to over-simplify, mis-construe, & paint it as children trying to play soldier. That's using a red herring response to face a sophisticated arguement rather than responding in kind, and that's somewhere between annoying & insulting.

In the grand scheme of things, it's all trivial.

A lot of folks are running around saying that the sky is falling; that CAP will completely alienate its blue-suited benefactors, loose relevance as technology changes, that someday we'll have a giant tent sale for all our planes and we'll end up all dressed up on our distinctive corporate uniforms with nowhere to go. 

Not gonna happen.

As for our relationship with USAF: maybe it is strained, maybe not: who knows?  Even if its true, spouses argue, kids talk back to their parents, and siblings might occasionally pop each other one, but at the end of the day, family is family.  Sometimes these little "rubs" are necessary to redefine boundaries and to help the relationship to develop and grow.

I will admit that things aren't perfect, but when were they?  If you look back on our history or consult some 40-50 year members, they'll tell you stories of darker days (berry-boards, anyone?) yet here we still are.   All this too shall come to pass: Dnall, I believe it, and so do you, as evidenced by the fact that you and I are still card-carrying PAYING members.

Our alleged 'second-class' status (in the eyes of some) is more often than not the result of self-inflicted wounds.  We had more privileges and less restrictions years ago:  we lost them when folks abused them, or felt they were entitlements, and demanded them.   My first run-in with a CAP Senior Member was as a young soldier 25 years ago at Ft. Rucker, when some cadet squadrons were invited for a tour of the post and obligatory lunch at the dining facility, when a CAP 2nd Lt. not much older than I tried to lock my heels for not saluting.  I laughed at her and moved on (poetic justice: here I am today.)  My years in the military are now but a shadow-box and some certs on a wall, and a faint figure in my life's rear-view mirror, but I still remember the view from the other side of the fence, and comport myself accordingly. 

Regarding our operational capability, what Federally mandated standards?   Ground? Air?   Unfortunately, the dirtbags stand out and are  remembered, but some of our people are more competent that we give them credit for.  Folks out there will likely flame me for this, but as far as SAR is concerned I'll take bets on a 17 year old Cadet who's an experienced GTL over your fresh-out-of basic-training soldier or airman who's the same age.  Admittedly, we have had some bumps in the road, but somehow we still get invited to the parties, and for the most part, manage not to pee in the potted palms.  Competence and professionalism in the ranks??  I've seen good ones and bad ones-comes with the territory if you are part of a volunteer organization-it's up to you, me and all the members reading this to "police" the organization.  We may never achieve the absolute "platonic ideal" of what a SAR/HLS/DR/Psychic Ninja organization could/should be, but I'd like to think that we're better today than we were yesterday. 

Decline in missions? We have a history of being innovative and flexible, otherwise we'd still be in ready-rooms, impatiently waiting to bomb German subs.  Ever wonder what CAP did before there were ELT's???  Right now, there are folks in "echelons above" trying to carve out a role for us in the next decade and beyond-more power to them.  That's why we're buying Airvans, SDIS kits, and all other manner of "sneaky-peeky-tekkie" gear.  What will we do when 121.5 ELT's go away?  Dunno, but I bet it will be interesting, and look forward to finding out.

Regardless of the bells, the whistles, the costumes and the politics, there is the immovable and absolute truth that members, any member, regardless of position will run into trouble when they loose their sense of perspective and/or are unable to work within an organizational framework (the two usually go hand-in-hand.)  Discounting CPPT violations and outright fraud, it's the most common behavioral pattern that leads our folks to self-destruct.

When all is said and done, we are volunteers.  By that very nature, the biggest reward is the opportunity to do it all again tomorrow, and maybe even the day after that.  All else is just window dressing.

...that's what my original post was all about.

I understand what you're saying about family, but you know divorce happens too. It's one thing when the finances a re a mess, or the wife wrecked the car, or little johnny got arrested, lost a job, whatever, but you pile too much of that up all at the same time & it's not a spat anymore.

This isn't about the AF. They love us! Maybe like a little kid sister who can't go out on a date while they're watching, but love us just the same, and they bend over backwards & forwards again to support us well beyond the point that they're getting an equal return.

There are facts on the table:
1) CAP was in a lot of trouble in the late 90s, in response AF tried to take over, Congress sided w/ CAP corporate & created the BoG instead while shaking finger in warning, same sorts of problems form before continue to happen unabated, congress not happy further change likely which could be very good or very bad but won't be left to fester
2) Current leadership... you should talk to CAP-USAF off the record.
3) ELT tech has already caused a massive decline to current mission leesl that do not justify our fleet or expenditures. There will always be some work, but that declining trend will continue down to a trickle that can't justify what we look like now.
4) The most important thing is NIMS. We have zero choice on this & FEMA is making sure of it by credentialing people that are allowed to work for anyone in ES. Going over to those standards, including PFT for GTMs, will be a huge wakeup call that will drop a ton of our members & start moving to a younger force dedicated to single jobs. A whole lot of our members will leave over this & we'll struggle mightily to maintain a minimum operating level as we transition & recruit/retain like you never seen before, otherwise we just can't conduct business.
5) post 9/11 decline... Between NIMS & massive funding to federal agencies, we've been the big loser. The CN work is a tiny fraction of what it was before, those agencies have new well-equipped aircraft & crews now, they don't need daylight eyeball survey of an area & get the report on sightings two weeks later, no matter how cheap it is.
6) post 9/11 change... the country got a wake up call, and the missions it needs done now are not the mission we've been doing, & we're not as of now equipped to do the stuff they need done, nor for that matter are we trusted to do the work. Some of that's image issues, some of that are legitimate quality control & training issues. All of it needs to be addressed.

I've not said the sky is falling. I've said, don't be complacent, look at these facts here, do your own research, dig past the BS & hype to find out for yourself. When you get to that point, you'll see two paths CAP can go down. One's to do nothing & let the rapidly changing world pass us by, and one's to bite the bullet drop sopme paradigms & evolve to something new & different.

Now, I'm a little tired of hearing about volunteers, and I'll tell you why. One reason is that image issue. A volunteer is housewife who showed up spontaneously off the street to pass out coffee. A volunteer is someone who gives  a little time or money to a cuase but isn't really committed. You have a flood in your county & go to the EOC, the majority of the critical staff there are not paid, but they have hundreds of hours training & are equally qualified to anyone else in the room - same thing with a volunteer firefighter or reserve deputy. You go look at a FEMA operation, almost all those people get paid nothing all year long to train for those positions, then deploy of their own free will to a disaster zone for long periods of time. I got no problem with not getting paid. What I got a problem with is people using that excuse to avoid the work & then cry when there's nothing fun to do. CAP isn't here for your amusement. You voluntarily accepted a grave responsibility & you can volunteer to quit, nothing in between there is volunteer work.

Standards: go read the couple NIMS threads in the ES section. Follow the links, spend some time looking around FEMA's website. Short version is they're moving to issue credentials to everyone ES in the country. If you don't have such a card you cannot work in an ES capacity or in an ES zone for the federal govt or anyone that gets federal funding (or they have to pay back all the money & don't get no mo). CAP can't get out of this one. GT has to meet at least the WSAR standards, it's not that bad, but a lot of people are going to freak out about PT. The specific requirements for UDF & fixed-wing will be out later this year. It'll be a challenge to meet those as well, and will require some new gear too. Do some foot work, it'll open your eyes.

Professional image: I was here for berry boards, the only thing I ask on the uniform is that we not be made to look like clowns. You take two people, one in shorts/teeshirt & the other in suit... guy in the suit's going to feel better about himself, behave more professionally, & project an image of competence to others. That's all it is. I do think there are some things we could do w/ uniforms to help build greater solidarity w/ our parent organization, but in every case I think we should put those proposals up to AF & ask them to keep it in mind for when they think we deserve it.

I absolutly agree that we've been flexible & innovative int he past. I think if you'll go back & look though you'll find the change was rarely welcome. When we stopped dropping on German subs most people quit & we rebuilt a new organization to face the new challenges the country needed us for. When ELTs came along it changed how we did business, we had to get more sophisticated & a lot of people couldn't keep up. When the PD standards came on a bit that left a lot of people behind. When civil defense was in swing we changed who we were as an organization & people who didn't like it left. When our Aux status was dropped people left. When we couldn't convert after 9/11 people left. We've been stuck in a nice warm & cozy rut for a long time now & refusing to acknowlage the professional capabilities expected of us & not delivered in a difficult enviro with a lot of other problems. If you'll look back at each of those change points, not one of them was smooth & comfortable, all were marked by the majority of people in the org refusing to change being forced to from inside or out, then rebuilding back to a strong org that can endure till the next time we have to evolve. The discussion you see is because we're at one of those historic evolutionary points where we have to remake the org for the future. Right now we have a little time left to get out in front of that & di it in a way that's not so desperate or painful for our members. I know there's not going to be a willingness to change, but are we going to choose to use that time wisely anyway, or not?

That's the discussion, & regardless of how you feel about it, there's for sure enough valid points in there to have a sophisticated discussion between members who just want the best for CAP. If you think it's a waste of time then don't participate. I'm going to think you're burring your head in the sand, & you can think I'm an alarmist idiot if you like, still it's valid for that discussion to happen.

[aveighter]

Very well said Dennis.

[ZigZag911]

6) post 9/11 change... the country got a wake up call, and the missions it needs done now are not the mission we've been doing, & we're not as of now equipped to do the stuff they need done, nor for that matter are we trusted to do the work. Some of that's image issues, some of that are legitimate quality control & training issues. All of it needs to be addressed.

Could you expand on this a bit??

[O-Rex]

DNall:

I think we're debating towards the same end: a better CAP.

Difference is that I see the glass half-full, and you see it half empty, and that's fine.  Perhaps the truth is somewhere in between.  There is strength in diversity, so let's agree to disagree.

Volunteers: there are many different shades and flavors from donut dollies to Firefighters, but there are limitations inherent to managing them.  I too hate when folks cop-out, and say "after all, its volunteer: I don't have to."  I believe that if you make a commitment, even one wthout compensation, you keep it: nobody gets drafted into CAP.  I love and believe in CAP and strive to better myself every day, but CAP is what I do after I close up the office, mow the lawn, and tuck the kids in: when I can, I do, when I can't, I don't, and I try to commit accordingly. 

Funny, but I happen to know of a volunteer housewife who passed out coffee at a hurricane shelter-just so happens she is also CAP a squadron commander.  Her deeds were not exactly action-movie material, but she helped nonetheless.

ES standards.  I've read the FEMA literature, and CAP is working towards them, albeit slowly.  The individual quals & PT requirements are still a work in-progress and it'll be interesting to see what shakes out.  I'm not going to lay awake at night fretting that the folks on the Ops committe are asleep at the wheel.  I've had the pleasure of working on some projects with them, and they are some pretty sharp folks.  Until you or I get a personal invite from General Pineda himself to whip the troops into shape, we'll just have to have faith and a little patience in those who carry the ball.       

CD decline: even drug-trafficking has become much more sophisticated: the days of planes dumping bales of marijuana to clandestine landing-zones are pretty much gone. CD has become somewhat of a conduit for HLS (which will eventually absorb it)  There are HLS missions going on right now, utilizing much more than just the "Mark I eyeball,"  you probably just don't hear about them, and for good reason.   CAP will also get other new imaging technologies to add to the SDIS an ARCHER inventory. 

Resistance to change: you get that in every organization.  Will standards change?  Hope so, we'd be remiss if they didn't.  Will some folks not adapt, and leave?  Maybe, but that's life: good, bad, or indifferent- call it "Organizational Darwinism...."

Post 9/11 Membership decline: sure, watching the WTC crumble on live TV whipped up a patriotic fervor unseen in this country since V-J Day.  Some folks joined CAP with visions scrambling to their airplanes while the claxons wailed, like some SAC bomber crew: when it didn't quite happen that way,  they became disenchanted.  That was also 5 years ago, and it became part of the ebb and flow of membership numbers.   
 
Uniforms: Don't get me wrong: wearing the costumes are half he fun.  I prep mine with all the painstaking care of a brain-surgeon, and my ribbons and insignia are stored like museum artifacts.  But I make the most of what CAP and USAF allows.  If they make a change, I comply.  Even better if the change is something I happen to like (rank on the hat.)  If my uniform wishes aren't granted, I don't make a fuss. I too would continue to play if I had to wear shorts and sandals.  Uniforms get put away in the closet: CAP stays in the heart & soul.

If things were perfect, what would you and I sparr about?? 

[DNall]

6) post 9/11 change... the country got a wake up call, and the missions it needs done now are not the mission we've been doing, & we're not as of now equipped to do the stuff they need done, nor for that matter are we trusted to do the work. Some of that's image issues, some of that are legitimate quality control & training issues. All of it needs to be addressed.

Could you expand on this a bit??

Yeah sure, briefly.

You can spin a lot into that, but I'm primarily speaking to homeland defense/security. The specific example I like to use is the chem/bio/rad/nuke detection gear to monitor borders, smaller ports, transportation & critical infrastructure & events. You cannot detect these things by satellite. We spend billions on container scanners at major ports & border checkpoints, but nothing at smaller ports or the open border areas, much less any acapability whatsoever to do anything about it if intelligence belived there was a domestically built dirty bomb in transit. Now, the Govt does have this capability... in 16 planes, six of which are overseas half the time. Meanwhile you got 535 CAP planes spread all over the country & easily able to carry this very light payload. Cost a few million for the whole program, DHS is willing to pay for the gear if AF pays the training & flying. The biggest hold up is not the money at all, it's that AF doesn't believe CAP personnel are sophisticated enough to deal with highly complex equipment doing a mission critical to national security.

This is just one example & by no means the definiative one. The very small amount of HLS flying we do is not in that range of critically important stuff. What we do is closer to housekeeping. We do have the capability to step up as a first line resource. We have been there on several functions in the past. In fact we were there on this exact mission as part of the cold war national response plan, that's where air/grd radiological monitoring came from in the first place. The same logic is true in Disaster resposne & SaR. We've taken a step back after NIMS came on, and as new national priorities have developed we've failed to step up & make ourselves central in the Govt toolbox. Being in that toolbox at all & how critical our position is in it year over year is the ONLY thing that matters in determining our budget.

Short & simple, can AF look at CAP & say they trust us with their lives & the safety of the nation? If it's Bob the hobbiest volunteer frolicing along thru jobs like it's no big deal, and it's being jusdged by the worst among us, well then you know the answer. If Bob has some education, been specially selected at each level of progression w/ AF input, & trained to near AF stadards... well it presents a whole different immage. Like I said before, some of it is image, which requires educating AF & the professional emergency response community about how good we reall are; but, some of the reason they feel the way they do is based on legitimat complaints that we can fix, albeit a slightly painful process.

[DNall]

I think we're debating towards the same end: a better CAP.

Difference is that I see the glass half-full, and you see it half empty, and that's fine.  Perhaps the truth is somewhere in between.  There is strength in diversity, so let's agree to disagree.

I certainly agree we all want to hit the same target. There's a legit discussion about who's aiming at it & who's aiming off in the woods. About half the discussion going on in these threads is about showing people the light on that, and it's been fairly successful.

Volunteers: there are many different shades and flavors from donut dollies to Firefighters, but there are limitations inherent to managing them.  I too hate when folks cop-out, and say "after all, its volunteer: I don't have to."  I believe that if you make a commitment, even one wthout compensation, you keep it: nobody gets drafted into CAP.  I love and believe in CAP and strive to better myself every day, but CAP is what I do after I close up the office, mow the lawn, and tuck the kids in: when I can, I do, when I can't, I don't, and I try to commit accordingly.

Funny, but I happen to know of a volunteer housewife who passed out coffee at a hurricane shelter-just so happens she is also CAP a squadron commander.  Her deeds were not exactly action-movie material, but she helped nonetheless.

I've passed out coffee as well, there's nothing wrong with it, but it hardly justifies 25million dollars a year, a hundred million dollar fleet of planes, 35mil in radios (got an updated number on that recently), lots of behicles, etc.

I understand the mgmt issues, I'm not by any means saying members should put CAP above everything else in their lives. I've NEVER said that even remotely. In fact I haven't in anything I've said asked for one second more of anyone's time, probably actually less of it if you look at what I've described. However, I have a big problem with the image of a volunteer, or rather the popular interpretation of that word by the outside world to mean a dunder-headed hobbiest playing around thru operational activities cause he thinks it's fun, one who isn't correctly trained for the work, and one who isn't personnaly capable of executing it as a leader, manager, technical expert, or operator. Pretty much as far away from the words capable professional expert as you can get. That's a big issue that has to be changed, and while some of it is external education, a lot of it involves shifting the internal culture so people don't see themselves as volunteers, but rather as obligated to service they've committed to. That doesn't mean you need to miss your daughter's birthday to go on a mission, but it does mean you take your obligations seriously & everyone in or out of CAP can see that.

ES standards.  I've read the FEMA literature, and CAP is working towards them, albeit slowly.  The individual quals & PT requirements are still a work in-progress and it'll be interesting to see what shakes out.  I'm not going to lay awake at night fretting that the folks on the Ops committe are asleep at the wheel.  I've had the pleasure of working on some projects with them, and they are some pretty sharp folks.  Until you or I get a personal invite from General Pineda himself to whip the troops into shape, we'll just have to have faith and a little patience in those who carry the ball.

I'm not disputing they're sharp. As soon as you implement these standards, membership is going to drop big & a lot of people are going to be disgruntled. It's going to take a long time to train people up to this level. CAP has been begging since the first of this stuff came out in 2002 to get an examption or have it changed to let us in. The answer all along has been absolutely NO, these are the standards it takes to be an operator, meet them or get out. CAP has been extremely stubborn about that & wasted a lot of time we could have used to smooth the transition. They still have some time left, but when FEMA moves to doing the credentialing, that shuts us down by federal order. We have to get to work or we're going to be in trouble.

CD decline: even drug-trafficking has become much more sophisticated: the days of planes dumping bales of marijuana to clandestine landing-zones are pretty much gone. CD has become somewhat of a conduit for HLS (which will eventually absorb it)  There are HLS missions going on right now, utilizing much more than just the "Mark I eyeball,"  you probably just don't hear about them, and for good reason.   CAP will also get other new imaging technologies to add to the SDIS an ARCHER inventory. 

Actually, I know quite a bit about what's going in in HLS & CD. A lot of what we did was identify traffic patterns for intel purposes. Get the P25 or secure liaison radios in there though & strap on FLIR & you're back in business. SDIS is a joke. I mean it has some used, but that's such a low capability mismatched strap together troubled system, it's just not worth the investment. There's a whole lot of money out there to get legit airborne FLIR systems AND the CRBNE system I mentioned above, you can fly both on a 182 pretty easy. There's some stuff we'd like to do with enhanced airborne repeater systems to put state/local agencies back on the air after a disaster. There's a lot we can do & a lot of money to buy those capabilities... but we're not a trusted or dependable asset w/ capable personnel. Again, some of that is BS that needs education, and some is legit complaints we need to address. CAP steps up on its end, I'll be happy to help you get the money & more mission than you can take.

Resistance to change: you get that in every organization.  Will standards change?  Hope so, we'd be remiss if they didn't.  Will some folks not adapt, and leave?  Maybe, but that's life: good, bad, or indifferent- call it "Organizational Darwinism...."

Absolutely. That's human nature & the history of CAP's adapataions over our history. All I'm saying is we're at one of those evolutionary jump points & a big factor going on both in leadership & among members is that resistance to change. A lot of the afformentioned sharp folks have been putting off change in the midst of a retention crisis, but we're very quickly runnin gout of time. I don't expect things to change & be perfect. I expect it to be hard work, cost lots of members, force us in to a degree of rebuilding, and eventually in 3-5 years be standing on the other side stronger than ever before. The picture on the other side of that requires a different level of leadership skill from our operational leaders, specifically the ability to function in a joint enviro that may at times call for CAP members to take part in or even the lead of a joint IC staff that commands everyone including the paid responders.

Post 9/11 Membership decline: sure, watching the WTC crumble on live TV whipped up a patriotic fervor unseen in this country since V-J Day.  Some folks joined CAP with visions scrambling to their airplanes while the claxons wailed, like some SAC bomber crew: when it didn't quite happen that way,  they became disenchanted.  That was also 5 years ago, and it became part of the ebb and flow of membership numbers.

My only point tehre is they came in with an expectation of being able to make a difference & we didn't geive them that opportunity because we didn't then & still hadn't now stepped up to natioanlly critical roles. Those functions by the way would be the ones that protect & expand our budget, ensure the best interests of CAP & the AF, allows us to grow strong to be of greater service in the future. Those people may have been sold an unrealistic bill of goods, & they may have had unrealistic expectations, but we didn't do a very good job at the time or since of stepping up to what the country needed done, and we didn't take hold of that 30-50k members & turn the ship from dream to reality. That's our fault, and we need to fix it now so we can go get a new 30k people & do some big-time stuff. We owe that to our members just as much as we owe it to the country.

Uniforms: Don't get me wrong: wearing the costumes are half he fun.  I prep mine with all the painstaking care of a brain-surgeon, and my ribbons and insignia are stored like museum artifacts.  But I make the most of what CAP and USAF allows.  If they make a change, I comply.  Even better if the change is something I happen to like (rank on the hat.)  If my uniform wishes aren't granted, I don't make a fuss. I too would continue to play if I had to wear shorts and sandals.  Uniforms get put away in the closet: CAP stays in the heart & soul.

This is different for everybody, but with me, I'm not really here for the work, I'm here for the AF. If we were doing the same thing under DHS, or even the Navy, I'd be gone. If we lost the military aspects of what we do, I'd be gone. I like the military culture & environment, both when the Army pays me & when the AF doesn't. I'm here to do good for the AF & don't remotely care about anyone else. I see the uniform as the primary meassuring stick of their respect & appreciaiton for us. I think we have right now pretty much what we deserve. I'd prefer a much more professional appearance that reflects that message to onlookers, but I think we have to earn it. Id' like to put those standards to the AF, lay out how we want to reform CAP, then ask that they hand us what we deserve when we deserve it. And, I think 39-1 should be written as a supplement to the AFI, so that when the AFI changes things they are automatically changed for CAP & 39-1 will just spell out the distinctive thins we do & the corporate-style uniforms. Mainly though I just don't like looking like an idiot or having to justify my credibility.


Everybody getting the point though? There is plenty legit discussion to be had. If you disagre with what's being said then you should be part of that discussion, but downing people for having it at all is just not right.

[SAR-EMT1]

This may be a silly question to ask but Im young and curious:
Any of you RLOs and RLNCOs here: do any of you do any liason work between your post CCs and CAP/ CGAux? Or are any of you here Wing Kings or the like? I was just wondering what the general makeup of the board was in relation to the RealMilitary and Wing / Region/ National Staff.

[ZigZag911]

Meanwhile you got 535 CAP planes spread all over the country & easily able to carry this very light payload. Cost a few million for the whole program, DHS is willing to pay for the gear if AF pays the training & flying. The biggest hold up is not the money at all, it's that AF doesn't believe CAP personnel are sophisticated enough to deal with highly complex equipment doing a mission critical to national security.

Thanks for the briefing.

With regard to this one potential mission, sounds like no one is doing it now....we have the capability....isn't it better that someone undertake the task?....even if only 5-10% of these HLS missions were effective, it would probably give potential terrorists pause if we were flying the missions....'cause they would not know which ones were working.

In the days after 9/11, when there was a perceived threat to critical infrastructure (transportation systems, roadways, water supplies, power plants) I did not understand why the authorities did not have us 'showing the flag' to keep an eye on things....I still don't get it....with some of these things, irregular spot checking would probably be better than a predictable system.

Oh well, guess that's why I don't work for the government!

[O-Rex]

Remember that a CAP aircraft was the first to survey and take photos of the WTC site immediately after the incident.  There was also some participation in SCATANA ops. 

[SAR-EMT1]

So why isnt it happening now? Did we do something WRONG after 9/11?

[ZigZag911]

Remember that a CAP aircraft was the first to survey and take photos of the WTC site immediately after the incident.  There was also some participation in SCATANA ops. 

Quite true, Col. Greenhut flew that first mission.

But not that much happened subsequently......and I don't think it was for lack of CAP volunteering, but rather unbelievable governmental inertia....i still can't believe how long it took to get HLS Dept up and running! Compare this with FDR, WW2 and CAP's beginnings....

[DNall]

The flights at WTC were at the Govvernor's request, which while everything else is grounded & AF doesn't know they're there can be a problem, such as happened at Pentagon where some stuff almost got zapped. Not that it matters now.

There's a lot the govt needs done. Some of it they don't have the resources for w/o us, others they are doing at the cost of a small fortune, still others they could greatly extend their capabilities if they just had a little help. That's where we SHOULD come in. Be it flying complex gear on the critical deterrance & detection mission mentioend above, telecommuting IT professionals to support 8AF's new primary role in counter-cyberterrorism, supplying professionals (engineers, doctors, nurses, EMTs, Firemen, lawyers for dependant aid, etc) or selecting well qualified people to train by correspondence & OJT to become AFSC certified in a limited number of fields that may be related to their outside work (just like CGAux or SDFs already do now) to reduce the need for contractors & support domestic operations so troops can go where they're needed & we can do more with less... Stop for a second and take a look at each of those things. I got no problem surveying a flash flood for the local EOC, but that doesn't mean anything to Congress or the AF when they set national priorities & hand out money. We need to evolve & remake ourselves into something the AF finds directly useful to them.

The fact of the matter is AF doesn't trust us, and we have to do what's required to change that. It will require a committment & it will require change, a lot of people will leave in that process, a lot of new people will come on - that's the darwinian process that has occurred half a dozen times in the history of CAP when things needed to shift at historic points. We're at another of those now, have been since after 9/11, and it's time to get a move on before the world passes us completely by & leaves us obselete in the dust complaining why we can't get a budget anymore. CAP's its own worst enemy, and we don't have time for so much of that right now.

[lordmonar]

But not that much happened subsequently......and I don't think it was for lack of CAP volunteering, but rather unbelievable governmental inertia....i still can't believe how long it took to get HLS Dept up and running! Compare this with FDR, WW2 and CAP's beginnings....

We had 10 years of watching Germany Build up and rattler their sabers and then 2 years of fighting as we sat on the side lines. 

CAP had been in the works and being developed in the back ground sinces the mid 30's.

Dispite what some history books may say...the U.S. was more prepared for war than many people think.

[shorning]

I find it amusing that this thread is still going on.  That is all.  Carry on.

[Chappie]

I find it amusing that this thread is still going on.  That is all.  Carry on.

Is this the 3rd or 4th spool of this thread

[sparks]

It seems that "the same question" may have been lost after a very lengthy string of comments. I'm not sure what the original question was. In any case, unless a corporate officer is commenting none of us are going to make the final decision on the mission and structure of CAP, (was that the question?). Lobbying your cooperate officers (region and wing commanders) is the only opportunity to make your pinion count.

I wish them luck.

[ZigZag911]

The flights at WTC were at the Govvernor's request, which while everything else is grounded & AF doesn't know they're there can be a problem, such as happened at Pentagon where some stuff almost got zapped. Not that it matters now.

As far as the WTC flight went, it was out of one of the big NY airports (JFK or LaGuardia, can't remember which), 'cause I remember Greenhut telling a bunch of us at a meeting  how eerie it was, first being in a relatively tiny plane (I think a C-206) on that HUGE runway....then being the ONLY aircraft aloft ....I'm sure there were F-15s and F-16s patrolling somewhere above, but he didn't see them.

Anyway, part of his narrative described the special clearance he needed from FAA, coordinated with DOD....so I don't think his flight surprised anyone, can't speak for what went on at Pentagon

[ZigZag911]

But not that much happened subsequently......and I don't think it was for lack of CAP volunteering, but rather unbelievable governmental inertia....i still can't believe how long it took to get HLS Dept up and running! Compare this with FDR, WW2 and CAP's beginnings....

We had 10 years of watching Germany Build up and rattler their sabers and then 2 years of fighting as we sat on the side lines. 

CAP had been in the works and being developed in the back ground sinces the mid 30's.

Dispite what some history books may say...the U.S. was more prepared for war than many people think.

OK, true enough.

The attack at the Munich Olympics was in 1972.

'Achille Lauro' was in the early 80s.

The Marine Barracks attack in Lebanon was '83, I think?

Then we have  the 90s: USS Cole (96?), the 1993 attack on  WTC,
Mogadishu/Blackhawk down in 92.

Plus all the stuff AFTER 9/11....London, Spain, Mali, the African embassy bombings

And what did we do most of the time? 

Wring our hands and file police reports!

[ZigZag911]

I find it amusing that this thread is still going on.  That is all.  Carry on.

We live to entertain you!

[SAR-EMT1]

This may be a silly question to ask but Im young and curious:
Any of you RLOs and RLNCOs here: do any of you do any liason work between your post CCs and CAP/ CGAux? Or are any of you here Wing Kings or the like? I was just wondering what the general makeup of the board was in relation to the RealMilitary and Wing / Region/ National Staff.

Ill quote myself to emphisize the above... Are any of the board regualrs here on Corporate? Are any of you RLM / CAP liasons? Are any of you Wing/Region Staff?

[DNall]

That's kinds of off topic isn't it. There's a survey thread going that'll show you how many wg/reg/nat staff members there are on the board. There's at least one RLNCO around here somewhere. No CAP-USAF or Corporate officer SHOULD post here, at least not in letting it be known who they are.

[ZigZag911]

Ill quote myself to emphisize the above... Are any of the board regualrs here on Corporate? Are any of you RLM / CAP liasons? Are any of you Wing/Region Staff?

It really doesn't matter if National Board members or BOG members are posting here....they could easily be reading the discussions without being forum members....in which case, the ideas are indeed getting through.

[Major Carrales]

It really doesn't matter if National Board members or BOG members are posting here....they could easily be reading the discussions without being forum members....in which case, the ideas are indeed getting through.

Wait...wait a minute?!  What is the purpose of this forum, to exchange ideas, better CAP and network...or to circumnavigate the command structure?

Lots of good ideas get posted here...why not submit them officially?  Otherwise, when Col I. Gotchalast, CAP comes out with your idea as hisown there will be no sympathy for those claiming their idea was stolen. 

There is a vast difference between a good suggestion posted on a forum by an anonym and a a well presented official CAP document...and that difference might just be implementation!

Think about that...

Fixed quote - MIKE

[DNall]

It really doesn't matter if National Board members or BOG members are posting here....they could easily be reading the discussions without being forum members....in which case, the ideas are indeed getting through.

Wait...wait a minute?!  What is the purpose of this forum, to exchange ideas, better CAP and network...or to circumnavigate the command structure?

Lots of good ideas get posted here...why not submit them officially?  Otherwise, when Col I. Gotchalast, CAP comes out with your idea as hisown there will be no sympathy for those claiming their idea was stolen. 

There is a vast difference between a good suggestion posted on a forum by an anonym and a a well presented official CAP document...and that difference might just be implementation!

No one below the grade of Col is allowed to have good ideas in CAP, didn't you know that. I think you'll find people much more interested in getting the ideas discussed & floating around those circles than worried about who gets credit. In fact you'll find that the very best idea in the world will automatically be shot down if formally submitted. That's not how things are done. You have to lay the groundwork first. If that idea is being discussed a lot by membership, there's buzz being developed on in (say in places like this), and people are taking notice, THEN an idea for how to realistically make ithappen can go up.

[SAR-EMT1]

So how would one, go about affirming that what is discussed here reaches ears in higher places? I'm assuming the fact that I'm 21, a Lt. and non-prior service means anything I submit gets flamed. So what do I / we do?

As for what I would submit, at this point in time I'm fairly passionate about seeing a Ground Team EMS certification put through. To act as an parallel on the ops side to this HSO program in beta testing.

[DNall]

Current service, 13 years CAP, & Major don't mean much either. Here's how it works, in theory...

1) come up w/ idea, think it thru pretty good first, write some stuff down for your own ref
2) Test that idea in front of others (say in a place like this, or among others you BS w/ at events or whatever), get wide input, see what stands the test of expert scrutiny, modify idea as needed.
3) re-state fixed up idea & test that out.
4) build buzz around idea. CAP leadership may not like something they see as a threat, but if the membership really wants it then they have to give it a look or risk more retention problems.
5) push buzz up the chain by making sure well placed people see the group idea & get tehir reactions, modify as necessary
6) continue building foundation
7) at some point either the idea will be picked up by those at a higher level or it won't. If sufficient buzz exists & it hasn't been picked up, then submit as a group. If you've built the foundation but leadership isn't yet receptive, conisder outside professional publications that generate pressure on leadership by creating buzz beyond CAP. Network with other powers-that-be to increase pressure.
8 ) hope something good happens, if not you tried & put a stong idea in the toolbox for later reference, and the process helped you grow as an officer by associating & working with all those other smart experienced people.

-OR-
Be cynical, figure you have nothing to say about what happens, trust the top & their great record, then keep your head down & don't worry about the big picture.

Your choice.

[RiverAux]

So how would one, go about affirming that what is discussed here reaches ears in higher places?

Several issues raised here concerning items on CAP NewsOnline were "fixed" within hours of posting here....

[Pylon]

So how would one, go about affirming that what is discussed here reaches ears in higher places?

Judging by the accounts with cap.gov email addresses and the IP addresses that surf here, I think it's safe to assume that at least some of the content here is read by those at Maxwell AFB.

[ZigZag911]

It really doesn't matter if National Board members or BOG members are posting here....they could easily be reading the discussions without being forum members....in which case, the ideas are indeed getting through.

Wait...wait a minute?!  What is the purpose of this forum, to exchange ideas, better CAP and network...or to circumnavigate the command structure?

Lots of good ideas get posted here...why not submit them officially? 

Major, I'm not suggesting 'jumping the chain'....the other poster seemed to me to be suggesting that these matters should only be DISCUSSED by NB/BOG members, and I know you think that's as ridiculous as I do.

And if one of the good Colonels adopts some idea of mine from here and runs with it, more power to him/her!