Armed Forces soilders drinking at 18

[colkemp]

Is it just me or do everybody else feel the same way about this. I think that if your in the Armed Forces that you should be able to get a drink ar bar. Im not talking about every other underage person. I just find it ludacris that you could die for your country but not be able to get a drink. Comments?

[SarDragon]

Given the way I've seen 18-20 yo military members behave sober, and as a former member of that group, I think 21 is a reasonable minimum drinking age. A review of various statistical collections will back this up. There has always been a disproportionate percentage of young people involved in fatal incidents due to alcohol involvement.

[Eclipse]

+1 being in a uniform doesn't make you more responsible, necessarily, and may actually make you more inclined to take risks.

There plenty of PD, FD, and other similar situation where people are risking life and limb but still can't partake - they can't gamble in
most states either.

I would say in situations on base where personnel do not have the ability to leave, then I'd leave it to the military, otherwise, if you need
to cross into and risk civilian lives, then you need to play by the same rules as everyone else.

[colkemp]

Well I agree and disagree. Maybe i wasnt that clear.  I would like to see military personal under age to be able to drink on base not off base. I too was one of those soilders that could drink at 19. But it had to be either out of country or on base. Of course you will have people that abuse that powerlike always. But we already have millions of underage drinkers now. Ranging between high schoolers to college. I just dont understand how you could die for your country or kill for your country but not be able to take a drink.

[Eclipse]

But we already have millions of underage drinkers now. Ranging between high schoolers to college. I just dont understand how you could die for your country or kill for your country but not be able to take a drink.

All of them breaking the law and risking their futures.  How does adding more help?

[SarDragon]

Well I agree and disagree. Maybe i wasnt that clear.  I would like to see military personal under age to be able to drink on base not off base. I too was one of those soilders that could drink at 19. But it had to be either out of country or on base. Of course you will have people that abuse that powerlike always. But we already have millions of underage drinkers now. Ranging between high schoolers to college. I just dont understand how you could die for your country or kill for your country but not be able to take a drink.

Because people in that age group, both military and civilian, have not shown sufficient maturity when presented with the opportunity in the past. I've seen just as many ugly incidents on base, when military members were allowed to drink on base at 18.

Dying for your country isn't really a good criterion, but it seems that a war zone would ba a much more honorable place to do so, than the local interstate highway.

[cap235629]

The general approach to this by the military is to adopt the local law where the installation is located with regard to the drinking age.  Overseas it is almost exclusively 18.  CONUS is almost exclusively 21.

If a service member is at a "Command sponsored function" they may drink at that function at the discretion of the commander even in a state where they would be breaking the law if not on a Military Reservation.

[caphornbuckle]

I don't know about now, but in the mid 90's Columbus AFB, MS allowed the drinking age for BEER to be 18 but not the hard stuff.  Kept the DUI-free days low too!

[jimmydeanno]

At our base, the DUI sign gets changed by the person who got the last DUI, everyday.  They aren't allowed to drive on base, so they get to walk or get a ride to the gate with the DUI sign each day to change it.  They're stuck doing it until the next DUI happens. 

I really don't understand how anyone nowadays gets DUIs.  There are abundant taxis, Airmen Against Drunk Driving will give you a ride, and ALL of the local bars will take your info and do an IOU for a cab if you don't have the cash for one.

[Eclipse]

I really don't understand how anyone nowadays gets DUIs. 

Ditto, though the real answer is that the first thing alcohol impairs is judgement.

[arajca]

WIWAD, our first sergeant had a Blazer signed out every Fri-Sun specifically for drunk runs. Every soldier in our battery had a card with the phone number (CQ desk) and top visited the local establishments when he started this to pass on the info. Those soldiers who volunteered as drivers got Monday PT off if they made one run on the weekend and Monday morning if they made two or more. One got a DUI as he drove back on base Fri evening. MP's called top who id'd him and told the MPs they could keep him until his hearing.

[ol'fido]

Knew a couple of guys in my unit who felt that if you were in the military you should be able to drink before they turned 21. That is until one had to escort the body of the other home after he drank himself to death one night in the barracks. I remember going out on the lanai about 1 am one night and seeing the company street full of Aussies that were TDY to our battalion and the ambulance they called for this kid. The CQ Sgt practically went unconscious himself giving this kid CPR until the medics got there.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I live not too far from Canada.

The drinking age there, depending on province is 18 or 19.  In no case is it higher than 19 anywhere.

They seem to manage it well; for one thing they are no-mercy when it comes to DUI.

I don't know what our problem is.

[jimmydeanno]

some will tell you that it's because Alcohol isn't a normal part of society and culture the way it is in Europe, Canada, and other parts of the world.  It's seen as a party accessory, so when you consume it here its assumed that it is to be used in a partying manner.

Other cultures its just a drink here and there with a meal or a few with.friends.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

My dad told me that when he was stationed in West Germany, the kids took beer to school in their lunchboxes, and the German Army had it in their canteens when they did field exercises.

Again, no problems.

[abdsp51]

Being able to serve shouldn't entitle one to drink.  We all know that booze impairs judgement and it really impairs the judgement on an 18-20 yo.  In Korea the legal age was 20, in Europe I know it was 18.  Serving in the military by no means should entitle one to exempt from any laws.  I have seen more harm come from people drinking and doing dope than I have anything else.   

[RiverAux]

It would be somewhat intellectually satisfying to have one single age to serve as the point at which you are considered an adult.  But, in order to give this thread some sort of linkage to CAP (which it lacks so far), let us recall the several inconsistencies in our own regulations involving 18-21 year old cadets.  Maybe we should fix those before starting to worry about the drinking age. 

[RRLE]

I find the topic ironic. I got to vote for president at 18 right after the 26th Amendment was passed. The tag for passage was that if we could drink, drive, get drafted  and kill people we should be able to vote.

Now an 18 year old can do all of that except drink.

[Майор Хаткевич]

As others have said, the majority of the world allows it at 18. The maturity argument isn't really an argument. I know PLENTY of 21 year olds who go on benders too. You don't gain maturity at midnight on your 21st.

Just make it simple. Driving? 18. Smoking? 18. Voting? 18. Drinking? 18. Military? 18.

[cap235629]

Being able to serve shouldn't entitle one to drink.  We all know that booze impairs judgement and it really impairs the judgement on an 18-20 yo.  In Korea the legal age was 20, in Europe I know it was 18.  Serving in the military by no means should entitle one to exempt from any laws.  I have seen more harm come from people drinking and doing dope than I have anything else.

Then you need to read up on your laws.  The military is not exempt from any law, they fall under a different jurisdiction.  This jurisdiction gives a commander broad discretion.

I have seen ego kill more people than booze or dope myself.

I am not saying there isn't dangers involved but drinking is not the problem, it is lack of responsibility for ones actions.

If you can die for your country you should be able to have a beer, to suggest anything else is just insulting.

[lordmonar]

Bottom line......are you an adult at 18 or not?

I think if the over 18 crowd were half way orgainised they would see that they are a major demographic and could get the law changed in 10 minutes.

On a moral issue.......I think it is just double talk....we want you to have all the responsibilities of an adult but none of the perks.  We won't let them have alcohol...but they can have children, operarate airplanes, own homes, vote, join the military, carry a gun........what is wrong with this picture?

The law got changed not because 18-21 year olds were getting into troulbe....but 18-21 year olds were giving it to their 14-18 year old school freinds.

[abdsp51]

Being able to serve shouldn't entitle one to drink.  We all know that booze impairs judgement and it really impairs the judgement on an 18-20 yo.  In Korea the legal age was 20, in Europe I know it was 18.  Serving in the military by no means should entitle one to exempt from any laws.  I have seen more harm come from people drinking and doing dope than I have anything else.

Then you need to read up on your laws.  The military is not exempt from any law, they fall under a different jurisdiction.  This jurisdiction gives a commander broad discretion.

I have seen ego kill more people than booze or dope myself.

I am not saying there isn't dangers involved but drinking is not the problem, it is lack of responsibility for ones actions.

If you can die for your country you should be able to have a beer, to suggest anything else is just insulting.

I know my laws very well thank you, we fall under both the UCMJ and other applicable laws. I have seen far more lack of responsibilty from an 18-19 year old service member than I have others. And there is still a rash of underage folks obtaining it from those legal to buy.  The law currently says you have to be 21 to buy and consume.   And what was meant by exempt from laws was simply because you enlist shouldnt exempt you from the age requirement to drink in CONUS. 

[Eclipse]

I have seen ego kill more people than booze or dope myself.

That's part of the paradigm for the military, and more so than in the civilian world.
Who has more ego than an 18 year old fresh out of BMT?

They seem to manage it well; for one thing they are no-mercy when it comes to DUI.

I don't know what our problem is.

The answer is in your question.

Bottom line......are you an adult at 18 or not?

No.

[RiverAux]

If we change the drinking age to 18 for everybody, I wouldn't have any particular problem with that.  But, just changing it for those in the military is dumb.  There are plenty of 18-21 year olds who aren't in the military who are putting their lives at risk for the city, state, or country doing various jobs, including standing in a highway construction zone holding a stop sign. 

[PHall]

If we change the drinking age to 18 for everybody, I wouldn't have any particular problem with that.  But, just changing it for those in the military is dumb.  There are plenty of 18-21 year olds who aren't in the military who are putting their lives at risk for the city, state, or country doing various jobs, including standing in a highway construction zone holding a stop sign.

Ask Congress and the Federal Highway Administration.
Congress was the one who passed the bill that made raising the drinking age to 21 a condition for a state to receive any Federal Highway funds.

[Ned]

C'mon guys, use your research skills.

The US previously allowed the states to set the drinking age, and many states indeed had it set at 18.  (Some 19 or 20; some 18 for beer and wine, older for mixed drinks, etc.).  Why was it changed?  What were the arguments and data to support the change?  (Hint: it had to do with accident and fatality rates plotted against age.)

Does every state have the age of majority set at 18?  (The answer will suprise most of you.)  Do not confuse the age of majority with the voting age.

Are there any other age-based restrictions in this country?  Think of things like handgun purchases in some states.  Try renting a car at the airport at age 18.  ("But I'm a legal adult!  I'm old enought to die for my country!  You have to let me rent a car!")  There might even be one or two lurking in the Constiution itself.

And what are the actual statistics of those European and other countries that allow drinking at age 18.  How do they compare to ours?

Ultimately this is a "line-drawing" exercise.  What factors should we use to draw this particular line? (Drinking at age 18.)

[cap235629]

Being able to serve shouldn't entitle one to drink.  We all know that booze impairs judgement and it really impairs the judgement on an 18-20 yo.  In Korea the legal age was 20, in Europe I know it was 18.  Serving in the military by no means should entitle one to exempt from any laws.  I have seen more harm come from people drinking and doing dope than I have anything else.

Then you need to read up on your laws.  The military is not exempt from any law, they fall under a different jurisdiction.  This jurisdiction gives a commander broad discretion.

I have seen ego kill more people than booze or dope myself.

I am not saying there isn't dangers involved but drinking is not the problem, it is lack of responsibility for ones actions.

If you can die for your country you should be able to have a beer, to suggest anything else is just insulting.

I know my laws very well thank you, we fall under both the UCMJ and other applicable laws. I have seen far more lack of responsibilty from an 18-19 year old service member than I have others. And there is still a rash of underage folks obtaining it from those legal to buy.  The law currently says you have to be 21 to buy and consume.   And what was meant by exempt from laws was simply because you enlist shouldnt exempt you from the age requirement to drink in CONUS.

The majority of active duty installations in CONUS fall under exclusive FEDERAL jurisdiction and therefore state and local laws do not apply. Please show me in the UCMJ where the offense of underage drinking even appears. The only way that your argument would even start to have any legal standing is if the commander used the UCMJ to address an off post/base incident and then the charge would fall under Article 92.

Now the assimilative crimes act (Title 18 USC sects. 7 and 13) is another thing altogether and generally is used for civilians who committ an offense on a federal reservation. So it might be an interesting tangent to pursue if you let that 18 year old airman drink at the club and arrest his 20 year old girlfriend and write her an 1805 to see the Magistrate. The difference is that blank check he wrote to Uncle Sam entitles him to the UCMJ

[Eclipse]

See Title 10, Pt IV, Ch 159 § 2683:
Relinquishment of legislative jurisdiction; minimum drinking age on military installations

As for UCMJ applicability, "Article 92, Failure to obey order or regulation. " is generally how they get you..

[abdsp51]

See Title 10, Pt IV, Ch 159 § 2683:
Relinquishment of legislative jurisdiction; minimum drinking age on military installations

As for UCMJ applicability, "Article 92, Failure to obey order or regulation. " is generally how they get you..

Quoted above Art 92,  every unit I have been in has had an alcohol policy letter done up that says basically you will not drink if under age and if you do drink and are caught this is what you will be charged with.  Not to mention various group or wing commander policies.  Again we are talking about service members here. 

[cap235629]

See Title 10, Pt IV, Ch 159 § 2683:
Relinquishment of legislative jurisdiction; minimum drinking age on military installations

As for UCMJ applicability, "Article 92, Failure to obey order or regulation. " is generally how they get you..

§ 2683. Relinquishment of legislative jurisdiction; minimum drinking age on military installations

(a) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, the Secretary concerned may, whenever he considers it desirable, relinquish to a State, or to a Commonwealth, territory, or possession of the United States, all or part of the legislative jurisdiction of the United States over lands or interests under his control in that State, Commonwealth, territory, or possession. Relinquishment of legislative jurisdiction under this section may be accomplished
(1) by filing with the Governor (or, if none exists, with the chief executive officer) of the State, Commonwealth, territory, or possession concerned a notice of relinquishment to take effect upon acceptance thereof, or
(2) as the laws of the State, Commonwealth, territory, or possession may otherwise provide.
(b) The authority granted by subsection (a) is in addition to and not instead of that granted by any other provision of law.
(c)
(1) Except as provided in paragraphs (2) and (3), the Secretary concerned shall establish and enforce as the minimum drinking age on a military installation located in a State the age established by the law of that State as the State minimum drinking age.
(2)
(A) In the case of a military installation located—
(i) in more than one State; or
(ii) in one State but within 50 miles of another State or Mexico or Canada,
the Secretary concerned may establish and enforce as the minimum drinking age on that military installation the lowest applicable age.
(B) In subparagraph (A), the term "lowest applicable age" means the lowest minimum drinking age established by the law—
(i) of a State in which a military installation is located; or
(ii) of a State or jurisdiction of Mexico or Canada that is within 50 miles of such military installation.

(3)

(A) The commanding officer of a military installation may waive the requirement of paragraph (1) if such commanding officer determines that the exemption is justified by special circumstances.
(B) The Secretary of Defense shall define by regulations what constitute special circumstances for the purposes of this paragraph.

(4) In this subsection:

(A) The term "State" includes the District of Columbia.
(B) The term "minimum drinking age" means the minimum age or ages established for persons who may purchase, possess, or consume alcoholic beverages.

The highlighted section is my point.  May as in the permissive, not shall as in the instructional.  The discretion is written exactly as I explained.

The specific language in the drinking age provision relies on the Secretary invoking Paragraph 1
Amazing what you learn when you go to the United States Army Military Police School....

[abdsp51]

Which oh wait is 21 in all 50 states.

[cap235629]

The specific language in the drinking age provision relies on the Secretary invoking Paragraph 1

Which oh wait is 21 in all 50 states.

Your point?

[abdsp51]

Point is 21 is 21.  This is an age old topic that has been around forever and will continue too do so.  Over all drinking at 18 is a bad idea and most 18-20 yo are incapable of handling that level of responsibilty.  Most refuse to take responsibility for their actions as is.  Service secretaries have enough on their plate to deal with rather than invoking an 18 yo's ability to drink.

[cap235629]

Point is 21 is 21.  This is an age old topic that has been around forever and will continue too do so.  Over all drinking at 18 is a bad idea and most 18-20 yo are incapable of handling that level of responsibilty.  Most refuse to take responsibility for their actions as is.  Service secretaries have enough on their plate to deal with rather than invoking an 18 yo's ability to drink.

You have it backwards. The drinking age will only be moved to 21 if the service secretary invokes his /her privilege under title 10, not until.

[abdsp51]

Beg to differ most installations have more than likely assimilated local statutes and laws regarding the issue, and I would love to see a 18 yo service member play barracks lawyer on it.  Every yard I have been CONUS wide the standard is 21.

[cap235629]

Beg to differ most installations have more than likely assimilated local statutes and laws regarding the issue, and I would love to see a 18 yo service member play barracks lawyer on it.  Every yard I have been CONUS wide the standard is 21.

I agree and I can't think of a CONUS installation that hasn't.  I was just pointing out that you had the process backwards.

The law also gives the local commander the final say as to what is an appropriate exception to the rule i.e. command sponsored functions, just like I said.

The assimilated crimes act does not apply.

[MIKE]

The DDR program must be working real well. 

[SABRE17]

Lest I recall the time I was almost killed in a Drunk driving crash/hit and run by a 41 Year old. yeah she knew better, yeah she drove anyways. Age is no cure for stupidity, nor equivalency for responsibility.

In fact in a few cases my senior class was incredibly more responsible then their parents generation.


I now return thy to thy regularly scheduled topic.
that is all

[JayT]

Lest I recall the time I was almost killed in a Drunk driving crash/hit and run by a 41 Year old. yeah she knew better, yeah she drove anyways. Age is no cure for stupidity, nor equivalency for responsibility.

In fact in a few cases my senior class was incredibly more responsible then their parents generation.


I now return thy to thy regularly scheduled topic.
that is all

Yup, nope, argument doesn't work. The 21 age limit is based off of research and statistics, not a few anecdotal  stories some guys you go to school with.

[davidsinn]

Lest I recall the time I was almost killed in a Drunk driving crash/hit and run by a 41 Year old. yeah she knew better, yeah she drove anyways. Age is no cure for stupidity, nor equivalency for responsibility.

In fact in a few cases my senior class was incredibly more responsible then their parents generation.


I now return thy to thy regularly scheduled topic.
that is all

Yup, nope, argument doesn't work. The 21 age limit is based off of research and statistics, not a few anecdotal  stories some guys you go to school with.

How do we compare to Europe?

[cap235629]

Lest I recall the time I was almost killed in a Drunk driving crash/hit and run by a 41 Year old. yeah she knew better, yeah she drove anyways. Age is no cure for stupidity, nor equivalency for responsibility.

In fact in a few cases my senior class was incredibly more responsible then their parents generation.


I now return thy to thy regularly scheduled topic.
that is all

Yup, nope, argument doesn't work. The 21 age limit is based off of research and statistics, not a few anecdotal  stories some guys you go to school with.

How do we compare to Europe?

well here is an interesting anecdote:

We have hosted a German exchange student for a month each of the last 2 years.  My son traveled to Germany last summer where the drinking age for beer and wine is 16 and hard liquor is 18.  Their DUI rate per capita in the 16-20 year old age bracket is miniscule in comparison to the US.

They also can't get a drivers license until they are 18 so by that time they have basically worked the new drinker binging out of their system before they get behind a wheel.

[lordmonar]

well here is an interesting anecdote:

We have hosted a German exchange student for a month each of the last 2 years.  My son traveled to Germany last summer where the drinking age for beer and wine is 16 and hard liquor is 18.  Their DUI rate per capita in the 16-20 year old age bracket is miniscule in comparison to the US.

They also can't get a drivers license until they are 18 so by that time they have basically worked the new drinker binging out of their system before they get behind a wheel.

Add to that the phenominon of the 21 year olds going out on binge drinking sprees.  IIRC a president of a major university has asked for the drinking age to be changed because of this.

It is like we hand the keys to a NASCAR racer to a 16 year old with out any driver's education or even a requuirment to pass a basic knowledge test.  Heck most grade school's teach a class on SEX ed so at least they know how the basics work......all they ever get on booze is "just say no until you are 21"  and "don't drink and drive".

Not a smart plan IMHO.

[Eclipse]

Germany tends to treat driving as a privilege vs. a right and in general Europe tends to focus on driving skills vs.
crash survivability.

So I don't think that's a good example.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Germany tends to treat driving as a privilege vs. a right and in general Europe tends to focus on driving skills vs.
crash survivability.

So I don't think that's a good example.

Latvia doesn't focus on much of either, but you can get a learners DL at 17, and a real one at 18. Drinking age is 18.

[mclarke]

Members of the service should be setting an example. In-state let it be 21, in theatre let it be 18 (light alcohol only though) and at the commanders discretion.

[AngelWings]

 It really is a matter of what is cool and what is not that cause most people to drink and drive at an early age. You go out to a party with some friends, you get some beer, a random person pulls you over to a beer keg, you get completely smashed, you have sex witha completely random stranger, you go out for a ride at 1 in the morning and you go home (if your lucky). Thats the story I've heard from my completely detached uncles, cousin and basicvally everyone who isn't my mother or my sister. My biological dad even has done it before. They all had the same reactions, they all thought it was cool. And guess what, my uncle has come really close to dying, my biological dad is nearly dead, my cousins are all messed (or atleast the ones I know) and yeah. They all said it feels cool to do it. Until alcohol becomes "uncool" it is going to keep happening. It is the same with pot, heroin, crack, cocaine, speed, and any other drug. It has its own sub culture of people who suck you in and have no problem spitting you out.
Moral of what I said here is that drinking is "cool" in some peoples minds who are to young. There is adds for it showing the people who drink beer to be cool and attractive, and those who don't drink the right beer, are stupid and are unattractive. There is a commercial for tequila that makes it seems if you drink the brand, you will be the most interesting man in the world. There is even a commercial that real men drink a lemonade type of beer, and everyone who doesn't wants to. Thats where the problem comes from. People emulating a commercials, which sometimes lead to the commericals they ignored like "over the limit, under arrest" commercial.