When are Cadets, Cadets?

[Eclipse]

With which I don't disagree, but clearly I act differently with my friends than with SMs or Cadets at a CAP activity.

Is "duh" too strong for this conversation? (or maybe too informal)

No one is saying a cadet is supposed to be making facing movements at the mall, or coming to attention when their teacher enters
the room, and your comments about inappropriate behavior by seniors don't make your case either.  Illegal activity is grounds
for anyone to be terminated, and use of drugs or alcohol by cadets almost always usually falls into that category.

Bottom line, no CAP member is exempt from the ramifications of their bad behavior should it get back to CAP.

[Eclipse]

With which I don't disagree, but clearly I act differently with my friends than with SMs or Cadets at a CAP activity.

As for drinking/smoking while around cadets, beyond the "few drinks" at a banquette, I don't think it's an appropriate behavior for Seniors to do it around cadets. It may not be prohibited, but the regulations I've read have stated that it is discouraged. Further along that line of thinking, cadets are prohibited from smoking at a CAP activity/in uniform, however cadets over the age of 18 may do so when not representing CAP.

WRONG! Cadets give up the right to smoke as part of being in CAP at anytime.

No, they do not.  They are not allowed to use or possess tobacco products during CAP activities, but outside that CAP
has no authority to restrict an otherwise legal activity (i.e. over 18).

[Krapenhoeffer]

  Wait, so one of the cadets I mentioned earlier who was 2b'd over a facebook photo was kicked out for a photo that was found of him smoking on a hunting trip with his parents (he was 19). Granted, they were looking for a reason to get this Cadet kicked out.

Still... Doesn't make it right. And I doubt that you'll ever find a DDR officer who would admit that you're correct. 

[JohnKachenmeister]

This is a productive discussion.

I was a reserve officer, and sometimes ran into enlisted members of my unit outside of the unit.  Courtesy was still observed.  I was addressed by my rank, and I addressed them by theirs.  Socialization by officers with enlisted members is still not in the interest of readiness, even among the military's "Christmas help."  Now, we might chat for a few minutes, I would always be cordial, but there was still a fence between us, and that fence was maintained from both sides.

Cadets might be a BIT different, especially if one is the child of one of my officer friends.  This calls for a little skill, tact, and discretion.  For example, I would never criticize another officer in the presence of a cadet.  I might be a little less discreet in the presence of an officer's child who was an adult enlisted person.

But as far as not being a "Real" officer, don't try saying that to my face.  I am prone to violence, and I have papers here to prove that.  I soldiered for my rank.  In fact, if you are less than 21, I was a "Real" officer before you were born.

[Krapenhoeffer]

Sorry, I meant real as in the context of RealMilitary^TM. What I intended to say is that a CAP officer holds no commission. This is a fact that seems to be overlooked by one member (who is not the commander) during the Ritual Pizza Consumption Following Senior Promotions^TM, which is a Senior-only activity. 

[Eclipse]

Wait, so one of the cadets I mentioned earlier who was 2b'd over a facebook photo was kicked out for a photo that was found of him smoking on a hunting trip with his parents (he was 19). Granted, they were looking for a reason to get this Cadet kicked out.

Absent other information, the above sounds like a termination which would never stand a properly filed appeal.

My guess would be that in this case, the cadet didn't know the program any better than the CC's terminating him, or didn't care enough to
bother.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Sorry, I meant real as in the context of RealMilitary^TM. What I intended to say is that a CAP officer holds no commission. This is a fact that seems to be overlooked by one member (who is not the commander) during the Ritual Pizza Consumption Following Senior Promotions^TM, which is a Senior-only activity. 

You are correct that the President does not commission CAP officers, and that CAP officers do not have command authority over military personnel.  Those facts, while true, are meaningless.  The USAF recognizes CAP rank in that they have approved use of military ranks and the standards CAP uses to award those ranks.  Otherwise, we could be like the Confederate Air Force and all be colonels.

If you cannot accept the fact that you are a CAP officer, responsible for the mission and the welfare of your subordinates, then you lack the ability to lead.

Over the 4th of July weekend I commanded a mission involving one aircraft, one ground team, and seven member's lives.  The mission was for the USAF, and involved searching for an ELT reported from several aircraft.  I accomplished this mission as I accomplished any other mission I have been given over the years, both in the CAP and in the Army.  There is no difference between me on this mission and an Air Guard officer intercepting an intruding aircraft, except on payday.

YOU may not be a "Real officer," but many of us in CAP are.  Some, like me, learned to be officers in the military.  Others learned to be officers in CAP. 

[NCRblues]

double standards.....


Eclipse, would you ever EVER say "Is "duh" too strong for this conversation?" to a cadet face to face??? i doubt it very very much. If a cadet came in here and said these to you, you would jump down his neck about proper SM/cadet behavior...... so.....why is it OK for you to say something like that?? Their was a SM around where i am, who told a cadet what he said was stupid. This cadet told Mommy, Mommy told group commander, and local news agency, less that 24 hours later that SM was not SM anymore.... I'm pretty sure you wouldn't risk your cap career, but i guess its OK to say it here, i mean, your a SM and he is a cadet.....

johnkachenmeister, if a cadet came in here and said "I am prone to violence, and I have papers here to prove that" even joking you would jump down their neck, and would probably show them the door if they were at your squadron (or at least give them some strong counseling).
Why is it OK for you to say something like that???

double standards are SO great!!!!

[JayT]

The question, and the issue I bring up here is Cadet/Senior relations, away from CAP.

Now, my original understanding when I was a cadet was that I was a cadet only when I was representing CAP in some fashion. I mean, there were a few cadets whose parents were senior members, so there had to be a line when I stopped being a complete cadet.

Regrettably, it was this very issue that forced me to adopt my gray shoulder boards and nameplate at 18. A few years ago, I was having a discussion on Facebook regarding political issues with some of my high school friends. A Captain that added me as a friend immediately jumped into the conversation, and his comment was tantamount to accusing myself of being Anti-American. Taking huge offense, I replied, addressing him as "Mr. <name>." He dodged the issue and proceeded to chastise me for not addressing him as Captain. The next meeting, I was questioned about it by my commander. In frustruration, I returned next week with a CAPF12 filled out and on my commander's desk, along with my cadet grade insignia.

Now, I'm glad that until I hit 21, I'm just Mr. Krapenhoeffer in any CAP-related situation. Now, I personally believe that out of uniform, and away from CAP, cadets should treat their senior members with the same respect they would show their good teachers at school. I also believe that senior members should not be addressed by their CAP grade when away from CAP-related activities. I mean, except for Col and above, our grade as senior members only reflects our progression within the Professional Development program, and carries no authority with it. We are not "real" officers, and are only afforded the privilege of military grade insignia. Everyone has to agree that CAP does not define one's life, unlike military service, which does.

Lemme ask you this.

Are you an EMT all the time? If you're working on a vollie bus, are you less of a 'real' EMT? Or are you a professional regardless of the uniform or patch you have?

A cadet is a cadet all the time. That doesn't mean snapping to attention or standing at parade rest, but it does mean knowing the importance of 'sir/ma'am' and not acting like idiots. It means holding yourself up to a little higher standard then your contemporaries.  I don't believe that cadets and SM's should be facebookin' it, or if they are, the SM should limit a cadet's access to what they can see.

'Officer' isn't just a title for a commissioned military officer. IT's a state of mind and action.

I don't see it as a double standard. Colonel Kachenmeister was referring to the different ways that one can become a CAP officer. He's also earned the right to say stuff like that I believe.

[NCRblues]

He has earned the right to say ""I am prone to violence, and I have papers here to prove that"??

I think the majority of this nation, and the court system disagrees with you, no one "earns the right" to be prone to violence.....

[Daniel]

johnkachenmeister, if a cadet came in here and said "I am prone to violence, and I have papers here to prove that" even joking you would jump down their neck, and would probably show them the door if they were at your squadron (or at least give them some strong counseling).
Why is it OK for you to say something like that???

double standards are SO great!!!!

You'd be suprised how many cadets have been in and or are in counseling. So I doubt they would/could show all of them the door

[Krapenhoeffer]

And I can accept that I am an officer. I also can accept that one does not need to be serious 24/7. For me, it depends on the situation. If I'm wearing my ITO hat, I have to have a sense of humor, because frankly, the router is still going to not want to identify with the laptop. If I'm wearing my EMT or GTL hat, I stick to the authoritarian method of leadership, because then it is necessary. I'm serious around Cadets, because that's what Cadets want to and need to see.

Regardless, I consider myself one of the "laid back Seniors." But only around other Seniors.

With that in mind, NCRblues, I can understand a joke. I could say, "I am prone to shoving plastic tubes down people's throats, and I have the papers to prove it" because that's true, as it is for the good Colonel (except with violence as opposed to oral airways).

And JThemann: unless you're a Paramedic, you're on the Vollie Bus where I live.

[Short Field]

If you can't control yourself, why should we trust you to control other people?  I command missions as well, but I do it as a CAP Incident Commander which has no relationship at all to CAP rank.  Being the IC trumps any CAP rank signed into the mission.

[Krapenhoeffer]

Yes, that's more or less what I was trying to say Short Field. CAP is a weird world in which you can have a SMWOG command squadrons full of Lt. Cols. One's grade has nothing to do with organizational authority... Or to quote a cadet who was trying to grasp this concept "So... Grade isn't rank... Grade just helps you get rank... But it doesn't? I'm confused."

To which, my only reply was "Cadet, That's, well... Correct... Welcome to CAP."

[Eclipse]

Eclipse, would you ever EVER say "Is "duh" too strong for this conversation?" to a cadet face to face??? i doubt it very very much.

Yeah, I probably would, and most certainly have in the past.  Also, any cadet who said "Duh, Sir!" would probably be OK in my book.

For the record I know USAFAUX2004 personally, he has served me in an exemplary fashion a number of times, and unlike you, since he's not looking to nail me on something, I doubt he took it anyway but in jest.

However I will grant you that in a discussion of decorum, it was probably inappropriate.

[NCRblues]

I'm not looking to nail anyone on anything, i just want to point out, that IMHO we (SM) are attempting to hold cadets feet to the fire 24/7, when we (SM) do not  hold ourselves to that same fire......

[Krapenhoeffer]

I'm not looking to nail anyone on anything, i just want to point out, that IMHO we (SM) are attempting to hold cadets feet to the fire 24/7, when we (SM) do not  hold ourselves to that same fire......

<Devil's Advocate>
Yet, you have a Patton quote as your signature... One about enforcing rules and the like.
</Devil's Advocate>

Well, we do hold our feet to a different fire... One that is used to heat a deep fryer... To make donuts...

[SJFedor]

I'm not looking to nail anyone on anything, i just want to point out, that IMHO we (SM) are attempting to hold cadets feet to the fire 24/7, when we (SM) do not  hold ourselves to that same fire......

<Devil's Advocate>
Yet, you have a Patton quote as your signature... One about enforcing rules and the like.
</Devil's Advocate>

Well, we do hold our feet to a different fire... One that is used to heat a deep fryer... To make donuts...

^--- only in the mornings. we transition over to mozzarella sticks and fries in the afternoon. at least thats how we roll in the south... 

[JayT]

And JThemann: unless you're a Paramedic, you're on the Vollie Bus where I live.

So you're still a professional, even through you're a volunteer AEMT? Also, do you ever feel you're not on duty?

[raivo]

It's one of those "gray areas" where you have to make a judgment call.

WIWAC, the majority of the squadron's cadet staff (myself included) were on a first-name basis and regularly hung out with each other. In that particular case, it never would've occurred to me to try and bring CAP standards into a situation, because, well, who cared? On the other hand, if a CAP member were out in public and behaving in a way where they might discredit the organization (ie, it was known that they were a CAP member), I think taking some sort of CAP disciplinary action against them might be appropriate. Of course, there are exceptions - if someone's known to be using drugs, you can't keep them as a member of a group with a counterdrug mission - but once again, it comes down to judgment.

With regards to the scenario originally mentioned, my personal opinion is that if you were having a civil, intellectual discussion outside CAP channels, the SM in question was out of line to try and pull rank into the situation,