This may be a silly question to ask but Im young and curious:
Any of you RLOs and RLNCOs here: do any of you do any liason work between your post CCs and CAP/ CGAux? Or are any of you here Wing Kings or the like? I was just wondering what the general makeup of the board was in relation to the RealMilitary and Wing / Region/ National Staff.

Quote from: DNall on January 25, 2007, 12:42:12 PM
Meanwhile you got 535 CAP planes spread all over the country & easily able to carry this very light payload. Cost a few million for the whole program, DHS is willing to pay for the gear if AF pays the training & flying. The biggest hold up is not the money at all, it's that AF doesn't believe CAP personnel are sophisticated enough to deal with highly complex equipment doing a mission critical to national security.

Thanks for the briefing.

With regard to this one potential mission, sounds like no one is doing it now....we have the capability....isn't it better that someone undertake the task?....even if only 5-10% of these HLS missions were effective, it would probably give potential terrorists pause if we were flying the missions....'cause they would not know which ones were working.

In the days after 9/11, when there was a perceived threat to critical infrastructure (transportation systems, roadways, water supplies, power plants) I did not understand why the authorities did not have us 'showing the flag' to keep an eye on things....I still don't get it....with some of these things, irregular spot checking would probably be better than a predictable system.

Oh well, guess that's why I don't work for the government!

Remember that a CAP aircraft was the first to survey and take photos of the WTC site immediately after the incident.  There was also some participation in SCATANA ops. 

So why isnt it happening now? Did we do something WRONG after 9/11?

Quote from: O-Rex on January 26, 2007, 04:34:44 AM
Remember that a CAP aircraft was the first to survey and take photos of the WTC site immediately after the incident.  There was also some participation in SCATANA ops. 

Quite true, Col. Greenhut flew that first mission.

But not that much happened subsequently......and I don't think it was for lack of CAP volunteering, but rather unbelievable governmental inertia....i still can't believe how long it took to get HLS Dept up and running! Compare this with FDR, WW2 and CAP's beginnings....

The flights at WTC were at the Govvernor's request, which while everything else is grounded & AF doesn't know they're there can be a problem, such as happened at Pentagon where some stuff almost got zapped. Not that it matters now.

There's a lot the govt needs done. Some of it they don't have the resources for w/o us, others they are doing at the cost of a small fortune, still others they could greatly extend their capabilities if they just had a little help. That's where we SHOULD come in. Be it flying complex gear on the critical deterrance & detection mission mentioend above, telecommuting IT professionals to support 8AF's new primary role in counter-cyberterrorism, supplying professionals (engineers, doctors, nurses, EMTs, Firemen, lawyers for dependant aid, etc) or selecting well qualified people to train by correspondence & OJT to become AFSC certified in a limited number of fields that may be related to their outside work (just like CGAux or SDFs already do now) to reduce the need for contractors & support domestic operations so troops can go where they're needed & we can do more with less... Stop for a second and take a look at each of those things. I got no problem surveying a flash flood for the local EOC, but that doesn't mean anything to Congress or the AF when they set national priorities & hand out money. We need to evolve & remake ourselves into something the AF finds directly useful to them.

The fact of the matter is AF doesn't trust us, and we have to do what's required to change that. It will require a committment & it will require change, a lot of people will leave in that process, a lot of new people will come on - that's the darwinian process that has occurred half a dozen times in the history of CAP when things needed to shift at historic points. We're at another of those now, have been since after 9/11, and it's time to get a move on before the world passes us completely by & leaves us obselete in the dust complaining why we can't get a budget anymore. CAP's its own worst enemy, and we don't have time for so much of that right now.

Quote from: ZigZag911 on January 26, 2007, 04:38:46 AM
But not that much happened subsequently......and I don't think it was for lack of CAP volunteering, but rather unbelievable governmental inertia....i still can't believe how long it took to get HLS Dept up and running! Compare this with FDR, WW2 and CAP's beginnings....

We had 10 years of watching Germany Build up and rattler their sabers and then 2 years of fighting as we sat on the side lines. 

CAP had been in the works and being developed in the back ground sinces the mid 30's.

Dispite what some history books may say...the U.S. was more prepared for war than many people think.

I find it amusing that this thread is still going on.  That is all.  Carry on.

Quote from: shorning on January 26, 2007, 08:07:41 PM
I find it amusing that this thread is still going on.  That is all.  Carry on.

Is this the 3rd or 4th spool of this thread

It seems that "the same question" may have been lost after a very lengthy string of comments. I'm not sure what the original question was. In any case, unless a corporate officer is commenting none of us are going to make the final decision on the mission and structure of CAP, (was that the question?). Lobbying your cooperate officers (region and wing commanders) is the only opportunity to make your pinion count.

I wish them luck.

Quote from: DNall on January 26, 2007, 01:13:51 PM
The flights at WTC were at the Govvernor's request, which while everything else is grounded & AF doesn't know they're there can be a problem, such as happened at Pentagon where some stuff almost got zapped. Not that it matters now.

As far as the WTC flight went, it was out of one of the big NY airports (JFK or LaGuardia, can't remember which), 'cause I remember Greenhut telling a bunch of us at a meeting  how eerie it was, first being in a relatively tiny plane (I think a C-206) on that HUGE runway....then being the ONLY aircraft aloft ....I'm sure there were F-15s and F-16s patrolling somewhere above, but he didn't see them.

Anyway, part of his narrative described the special clearance he needed from FAA, coordinated with DOD....so I don't think his flight surprised anyone, can't speak for what went on at Pentagon

Quote from: lordmonar on January 26, 2007, 04:23:14 PM

Quote from: ZigZag911 on January 26, 2007, 04:38:46 AM
But not that much happened subsequently......and I don't think it was for lack of CAP volunteering, but rather unbelievable governmental inertia....i still can't believe how long it took to get HLS Dept up and running! Compare this with FDR, WW2 and CAP's beginnings....

We had 10 years of watching Germany Build up and rattler their sabers and then 2 years of fighting as we sat on the side lines. 

CAP had been in the works and being developed in the back ground sinces the mid 30's.

Dispite what some history books may say...the U.S. was more prepared for war than many people think.

OK, true enough.

The attack at the Munich Olympics was in 1972.

'Achille Lauro' was in the early 80s.

The Marine Barracks attack in Lebanon was '83, I think?

Then we have  the 90s: USS Cole (96?), the 1993 attack on  WTC,
Mogadishu/Blackhawk down in 92.

Plus all the stuff AFTER 9/11....London, Spain, Mali, the African embassy bombings

And what did we do most of the time? 

Wring our hands and file police reports!

Quote from: shorning on January 26, 2007, 08:07:41 PM
I find it amusing that this thread is still going on.  That is all.  Carry on.

We live to entertain you!

Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on January 26, 2007, 01:10:55 AM
This may be a silly question to ask but Im young and curious:
Any of you RLOs and RLNCOs here: do any of you do any liason work between your post CCs and CAP/ CGAux? Or are any of you here Wing Kings or the like? I was just wondering what the general makeup of the board was in relation to the RealMilitary and Wing / Region/ National Staff.

Ill quote myself to emphisize the above... Are any of the board regualrs here on Corporate? Are any of you RLM / CAP liasons? Are any of you Wing/Region Staff?

That's kinds of off topic isn't it. There's a survey thread going that'll show you how many wg/reg/nat staff members there are on the board. There's at least one RLNCO around here somewhere. No CAP-USAF or Corporate officer SHOULD post here, at least not in letting it be known who they are.

Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on January 27, 2007, 09:34:29 AM

Ill quote myself to emphisize the above... Are any of the board regualrs here on Corporate? Are any of you RLM / CAP liasons? Are any of you Wing/Region Staff?

It really doesn't matter if National Board members or BOG members are posting here....they could easily be reading the discussions without being forum members....in which case, the ideas are indeed getting through.

Quote from: ZigZag911 on January 27, 2007, 06:26:45 PM
It really doesn't matter if National Board members or BOG members are posting here....they could easily be reading the discussions without being forum members....in which case, the ideas are indeed getting through.

Wait...wait a minute?!  What is the purpose of this forum, to exchange ideas, better CAP and network...or to circumnavigate the command structure?

Lots of good ideas get posted here...why not submit them officially?  Otherwise, when Col I. Gotchalast, CAP comes out with your idea as hisown there will be no sympathy for those claiming their idea was stolen. 

There is a vast difference between a good suggestion posted on a forum by an anonym and a a well presented official CAP document...and that difference might just be implementation!

Think about that...

Fixed quote - MIKE

Quote from: Major Carrales on January 27, 2007, 06:47:10 PM

Quote from: ZigZag911 on January 27, 2007, 06:26:45 PM
It really doesn't matter if National Board members or BOG members are posting here....they could easily be reading the discussions without being forum members....in which case, the ideas are indeed getting through.

Wait...wait a minute?!  What is the purpose of this forum, to exchange ideas, better CAP and network...or to circumnavigate the command structure?

Lots of good ideas get posted here...why not submit them officially?  Otherwise, when Col I. Gotchalast, CAP comes out with your idea as hisown there will be no sympathy for those claiming their idea was stolen. 

There is a vast difference between a good suggestion posted on a forum by an anonym and a a well presented official CAP document...and that difference might just be implementation!

No one below the grade of Col is allowed to have good ideas in CAP, didn't you know that. I think you'll find people much more interested in getting the ideas discussed & floating around those circles than worried about who gets credit. In fact you'll find that the very best idea in the world will automatically be shot down if formally submitted. That's not how things are done. You have to lay the groundwork first. If that idea is being discussed a lot by membership, there's buzz being developed on in (say in places like this), and people are taking notice, THEN an idea for how to realistically make ithappen can go up.

So how would one, go about affirming that what is discussed here reaches ears in higher places? I'm assuming the fact that I'm 21, a Lt. and non-prior service means anything I submit gets flamed. So what do I / we do?

As for what I would submit, at this point in time I'm fairly passionate about seeing a Ground Team EMS certification put through. To act as an parallel on the ops side to this HSO program in beta testing.

Current service, 13 years CAP, & Major don't mean much either. Here's how it works, in theory...

1) come up w/ idea, think it thru pretty good first, write some stuff down for your own ref
2) Test that idea in front of others (say in a place like this, or among others you BS w/ at events or whatever), get wide input, see what stands the test of expert scrutiny, modify idea as needed.
3) re-state fixed up idea & test that out.
4) build buzz around idea. CAP leadership may not like something they see as a threat, but if the membership really wants it then they have to give it a look or risk more retention problems.
5) push buzz up the chain by making sure well placed people see the group idea & get tehir reactions, modify as necessary
6) continue building foundation
7) at some point either the idea will be picked up by those at a higher level or it won't. If sufficient buzz exists & it hasn't been picked up, then submit as a group. If you've built the foundation but leadership isn't yet receptive, conisder outside professional publications that generate pressure on leadership by creating buzz beyond CAP. Network with other powers-that-be to increase pressure.
8 ) hope something good happens, if not you tried & put a stong idea in the toolbox for later reference, and the process helped you grow as an officer by associating & working with all those other smart experienced people.

-OR-
Be cynical, figure you have nothing to say about what happens, trust the top & their great record, then keep your head down & don't worry about the big picture.

Your choice.